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Google Faces Global Probes Over Wi-Fi Snooping
Here comes the privacy hysteria...
Despite the fact that Google's collection of public Wi-Fi data was accidental, the data itself was largely useless, and the company admitted to the error -- the company now faces probes on both sides of the Atlantic into their privacy practices. Already facing a long list of enemies (AT&T, Verizon, Comcast, Microsoft) with deep-pocketed lobbying operations -- the company's gaffe came at a very inopportune time. Regulators were already "horrified" by Google's simple collection of public SSID and MAC information, and this latest mistake seems to have driven all of them into a global tizzy:
quote:
Ilse Aigner, the German minister for consumer protection, said the new revelation "is alarming and yet another proof that privacy protection is still alien to Google". In the UK, the Information Commissioner’s Office said that Google appeared to have breached the data protection act...In the US, the Federal Trade Commission was expected to launch an inquiry as well, according to people who spoke to agency officials.
Of course privacy advocates are angry as well, EPIC calling Google's gaffe "one of the most massive surveillance incidents by a private corporation that has ever occurred." Granted, this "most massive surveillance incident" ever could have been avoided by people simply enabling WEP or WPA on their Wi-Fi routers -- which while not technically secure would have prevented data collection.
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Weatherman
join:2004-12-04
Bel Air, MD

Weatherman

Member

People's stupidity..

These are the same idiots that are not aware that they are sharing out their Internet connection to their entire neighborhood on their open access point.

One simple solution. WPA2.

If you don't know how to use a piece of hardware, you shouldn't own it or should have a professional set it up.
Don't go crying about your own ignorance..

SLD
Premium Member
join:2002-04-17
San Francisco, CA

1 recommendation

SLD

Premium Member

Re: People's stupidity..

Do you know how many people have their modem shipped to them by an ISP with a simple plug-in for setup? And many of these have wi-fi enabled, even if the owner isn't aware of it. Quit trying to hold everyone responsible when they aren't. If you want to write about responsibility, how about blaming the companies that ship these devices as free access points and then require the consumer to learn the technology and lingo and probably a horribly-written Chinese manual to turn it off or secure it.
Nesis
join:2009-06-12
Apollo Beach, FL

1 edit

Nesis

Member

Re: People's stupidity..

If a person is somehow not aware that wi-fi is not secure on its own then they would at least eventually discover it while reading anything on the web. For the sake of argument though lets say even then they don't catch on. They attempt to sue a company for collecting this information or blame the manufacturer. At this point they would be made aware that they have always had the ability to secure their access point they just didn't know how. Just because a company sells a product with the ability to secure the connection does not mean that they are also responsible for setting it up for them. A responsible person will make sure they at least understand how to use the equipment they own. Don't take this the wrong way. I am not trying to start an argument but if the manual sent to them was horribly written they could always pick up the phone and call the support line for assistance. I am sure they know how to at least walk a user through the basics.
Weatherman
join:2004-12-04
Bel Air, MD

Weatherman to SLD

Member

to SLD
And who allowed the equipment into their home??? Yes, the individual. It is something called "responsibility". Blaming the company for shipping a router with wi-fi enabled unlocked is like trying to sue GM for not telling you that you should lock your car doors at night so no one steals it.

Ignorance is not an excuse to push the blame on someone else. Figure it out, find someone that can, or don't use it. It is that simple.

james16
join:2001-02-26

james16 to SLD

Member

to SLD
said by SLD:

Do you know how many people have their modem shipped to them by an ISP with a simple plug-in for setup? And many of these have wi-fi enabled, even if the owner isn't aware of it. Quit trying to hold everyone responsible when they aren't.
They are absolutely responsible.

When you buy something it is up to you to find out how to use it properly, this applies to things from lightbulbs to knives, guns, cars, household chemicals and cleaners. Any of these things can cause harm if used incorrectly, and if you're going to say "but those things come with disclaimers", well so do the majority of wifi enabled modems/routers about the dangers of running an unsecured hotspot.
sonicmerlin
join:2009-05-24
Cleveland, OH

1 recommendation

sonicmerlin

Member

Really Now?

quote:
EPIC calling Google's gaffe "one of the most massive surveillance incidents by a private corporation that has ever occurred."
Is he including AT&T in that statement?

Honestly, how many corporations besides Google would have publicized the mistake after finding it, and then voluntarily stopped their project after correcting it? In 20 years when Larry and Sergey step down we might have a problem on our hands, but for now Google is by far the most humane and community-oriented multinational corporation in the world.

morbo
Complete Your Transaction
join:2002-01-22
00000

morbo

Member

Re: Really Now?

said by sonicmerlin:


Honestly, how many corporations besides Google would have publicized the mistake after finding it, and then voluntarily stopped their project after correcting it?
AT&T would have made another secret deal with the NSA to keep it quiet. Whoops. I've said too much.

jgkolt
Premium Member
join:2004-02-21
Avon, OH

jgkolt

Premium Member

big whoop

so they accidentally caught the mac id and ssid of open wireless routers that are broadcasting. This is something anyone can do legally. I don't see a credible reason to be this rough on them

Snookie2010
@comcast.net

1 recommendation

Snookie2010

Anon

Re: big whoop

said by jgkolt:

so they accidentally caught the mac id and ssid of open wireless routers that are broadcasting. This is something anyone can do legally. I don't see a credible reason to be this rough on them
Actually, according to press reports, they captured PAYLOAD DATA. Meaning the actually captured packets containing data such as email, web traffic, etc.

r81984
Fair and Balanced
Premium Member
join:2001-11-14
Katy, TX

1 recommendation

r81984

Premium Member

Re: big whoop

There is nothing wrong with collecting payload data. It is broadcasted in public. If the wifi owner did not want anyone to read the data they would encrypt it.

Google did nothing wrong and this german prime minister is the prime minister of retards.

FFH5
Premium Member
join:2002-03-03
Tavistock NJ

1 recommendation

FFH5 to jgkolt

Premium Member

to jgkolt
said by jgkolt:

so they accidentally caught the mac id and ssid of open wireless routers that are broadcasting. This is something anyone can do legally. I don't see a credible reason to be this rough on them
No. The capture of mac ids & ssid was on purpose. The capture of user app data was supposedly by accident. The whole purpose of the mac id; location; & ssid capture was to build a database to be used by google to provide an supplement to GPS data. The location data is meant to fuel Google's ad selling machine.

Koil
Premium Member
join:2002-09-10
Irmo, SC

Koil

Premium Member

Re: big whoop

Source, please...everything I've seen does not indicate any of that to be true. Not saying it isn't, but I'd like to see for myself.

FFH5
Premium Member
join:2002-03-03
Tavistock NJ

2 recommendations

FFH5

Premium Member

Re: big whoop

said by Koil:

Source, please...everything I've seen does not indicate any of that to be true. Not saying it isn't, but I'd like to see for myself.
How about from Google's official lips:
»googleblog.blogspot.com/ ··· ate.html

It is no secret that Google collects info on the location of wifi APs which they use for their mobile mapping products. The big upset right now is that they collected user data payloads as well, though they claim that was an accident.

Koil
Premium Member
join:2002-09-10
Irmo, SC

Koil

Premium Member

Re: big whoop

said by FFH5:

said by Koil:

Source, please...everything I've seen does not indicate any of that to be true. Not saying it isn't, but I'd like to see for myself.
How about from Google's official lips:
»googleblog.blogspot.com/ ··· ate.html

It is no secret that Google collects info on the location of wifi APs which they use for their mobile mapping products. The big upset right now is that they collected user data payloads as well, though they claim that was an accident.
Thanks..I honestly hadn't read that. After having done so, though and evaluating the effect of it, I can't say that I see any harm here. The information they were collecting was publicly available, and the payload data has been / is being erased, and not only that/ they've stopped collecting the data all together.

I'm an admitted Google fanboy, but I really don't see any evil here.

I still really don't understand any of the Google hate out there. As far as I can tell, especially when compared to any other corp. of its size, Google is pristine...angelic, even.
Nesis
join:2009-06-12
Apollo Beach, FL

Nesis

Member

Who Cares

If I broadcast my SSID and leave my network unsecured then I am welcoming this kind of thing. If these people really cared that much about security they would lock their access points down. Its not like the information on how to do it is hidden from them RTFM!
Mr Matt
join:2008-01-29
Eustis, FL

1 recommendation

Mr Matt

Member

Why worry be happy!

Remember Google can collect all of your communication activities if you use the Google and Google Voice. They collect your on line queries retain that information forever. Now with Google Voice, Google can record and keep a record of who you call and who calls you and integrate that information with your on line activities. At any time they can if they wish sell the results of your activities to others. Don't worry be happy privacy is dead, dead, dead. Why worry about Google collecting a few packets of data.
MeTarzan
join:2001-05-20
Fort Lauderdale, FL

1 recommendation

MeTarzan

Member

German Minister not aware of the German Court recent ruling?

German citizens are responsible for the security of their own private wireless connections, a court has ruled.
»news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/tech ··· 6606.stm

Napsterbater
Meh
MVM
join:2002-12-28
Milledgeville, GA
(Software) OPNsense
Ubiquiti UniFi UAP-AC-PRO

Napsterbater

MVM

Re: German Minister not aware of the German Court recent ruling?

said by MeTarzan:

German citizens are responsible for the security of their own private wireless connections, a court has ruled.
»news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/tech ··· 6606.stm
I like that connection, sort of a "cant have your cake and eat it to".
MyDogHsFleas
Premium Member
join:2007-08-15
Austin, TX

MyDogHsFleas

Premium Member

I seriously wonder if our species is viable

Given all the things that a person has to deal with and manage, what would make you spend more than 5 seconds of attention to a company's use of a fleet of trucks driving down streets and gathering publicly available electromagnetic emissions in the light and RF spectra, digesting and putting them in a database, and making them available on the Internet. Which would seem to be a good and noble activity, adding to the global information pool and ease of navigation and information access.

And yet, the "progressive" view seems to be this is somehow evil.

Holy crap people, take care of your business. Don't make up stuff to worry and anger you.

jjoshua
Premium Member
join:2001-06-01
Scotch Plains, NJ

1 edit

jjoshua

Premium Member

If you think that un-educated people are scary now...

Just wait until these same people start relying on their new cars' crash avoidance systems thinking that it will always protect them from rear-ending the vehicle in front of them.

powerhog
Stinkin' up the joint
Premium Member
join:2000-12-14
Owasso, OK

powerhog

Premium Member

Problem is worse than imagined...

Watching the local news last night, they had a report on this topic. Of course, they implied that Google satellites had x-ray vision and was looking into peoples computers and "stealing your identity". They did get around to talking about the streetview vehicles, but never clarified that it wasn't the x-ray satellites looking into your house and stealing your data.

I didn't know whether to laugh or cry at the misinformation being spewed across the TV airwaves.
patcat88
join:2002-04-05
Jamaica, NY

patcat88

Member

Re: Problem is worse than imagined...

Google is trying to steal your woman, you need to get her a lead vail.
axus
join:2001-06-18
Washington, DC

axus

Member

It was wrong to intercept people's communications

Google and everyone else agree that it was a mistake, and that Google should delete the data. I think that public facing information is OK, like SSID and MAC address,

What do "privacy advocates" expect further investigation to uncover? If their goal is to force Google to delete private information, they're wasting their time, because Google is already doing that.

Verifying that Google do what they say they will do is OK, but it's a bit like verifying that Saddam Hussein has no WMDs.
MyDogHsFleas
Premium Member
join:2007-08-15
Austin, TX

MyDogHsFleas

Premium Member

Re: It was wrong to intercept people's communications

If someone has an open Wi-Fi hotspot, they should have no expectation that information traversing that hotspot is kept private.

After all, Windows warns you when you connect to an open hotspot that your communications are not private.

I have a couple of neighbors with open Wi-Fi. I use them sometimes for testing access from outside my home network. I even upgraded their router for them with a new firmware download, because of some issues I was having doing my test. Yes it was that wide open -- no admin password.

People this clueless have no reason to complain.

Ioweyou
@comcast.net

Ioweyou

Anon

Okay so let me get this straight

The Google guys were/are supposed to go driving around with those hi-tech cameras on their cars (I've seen them) and take pictures as then went/go. So why are they carrying Wi-Fi equipment gathering data from people's wireless routers in the first place.

I think google is outright lying. If their cars had this equipment then they obviously knew about and did it on purpose or the equipment would never have been in the cars in the first place. Now it's leaked out and they feel they have to come clean.

This is outrageous. I hope they get fined big time.
tdouglas22
join:2001-09-25
Memphis, TN

tdouglas22

Member

Re: Okay so let me get this straight

said by Ioweyou :

The Google guys were/are supposed to go driving around with those hi-tech cameras on their cars (I've seen them) and take pictures as then went/go. So why are they carrying Wi-Fi equipment gathering data from people's wireless routers in the first place.

I think google is outright lying. If their cars had this equipment then they obviously knew about and did it on purpose or the equipment would never have been in the cars in the first place. Now it's leaked out and they feel they have to come clean.

This is outrageous. I hope they get fined big time.
Read the whole article and the associated links. They're gathering data to refine the Google Maps feature.

powerhog
Stinkin' up the joint
Premium Member
join:2000-12-14
Owasso, OK

powerhog to Ioweyou

Premium Member

to Ioweyou
Maybe they were uploading images to the Google servers using the open APs they discovered?

r81984
Fair and Balanced
Premium Member
join:2001-11-14
Katy, TX

r81984 to Ioweyou

Premium Member

to Ioweyou
Fined for what???
Everything they did was 100% legal.
Anyone can collect wifi information and packets in the public domain for any broadcasting wifi.
If the owner of the wifi router does not want anyone to read the data they would encrypt it.

jig
join:2001-01-05
Hacienda Heights, CA

jig

Member

accidental?

here's what i don't understand.

why aren't people more upset that this was "accidental"? who put the code on the cars? was it google? was it someone else?

if we're all in agreement that it WASN'T accidental (the alternative if scarier, frankly), then why do we keep hearing talk about privacy when google was clearly in violation of wiretapping laws? even without wep and wpa, payload packets aren't technically broadcast in the clear, they're directed to a single end point, and you need specialized software to get at the data if you aren't either end point.

on the privacy side - who cares? google has more granular and extensive data on more people than they could possibly have dredged through war sniffing. and they already use it for direct marketing. hello google search, and hello gmail.

so, forget about all the privacy stuff - it's small potatoes. what's really at issue here is who built the software, who "accidentally" turned it on, and who had access to the sniffed data and for how long?
ragingwolf
join:2003-04-22
Nepean, ON

ragingwolf

Member

Re: accidental?

I really don't see why people are going nutz about this. Who cares if google grabbed a snippit of your "unencrypted" traffic? Its not going to hold much value, considering most of your privacy important sites like banks etc. already encrypt your traffic in the browser.

If people were truly concerned about their privacy, they would have secured their connections long ago. I mean really, would you sign a written document and not read it first? Many idiots do... and then they proceed to cry wolf when something "unexpected" comes up :/
MyDogHsFleas
Premium Member
join:2007-08-15
Austin, TX

MyDogHsFleas to jig

Premium Member

to jig
said by jig:

google was clearly in violation of wiretapping laws
I call BS.

Back up your claim, or retract it.

Oh by the way, the freakin' EFF isn't even as far out as you are:
quote:
Marcia Hofmann, a senior staff attorney at the Electronic Frontier Foundation, said the fact that Google collected the data by accident would probably protect the company from liability under the federal wiretap law, which prohibits unauthorized access of communications.

"To violate the law requires that the interception was intentional," said Hofmann.


•••

thender
Screen tycoon
Premium Member
join:2009-01-01
Brooklyn, NY

thender

Premium Member

This is the catalyst that will make people care.

What google did here does not really effect anyone in a negative manner and is not the end of the world. I think going crazy over it is overboard.

However, it is a GOOD thing if it gets people to start caring about online privacy!

gmail allows one's email to be read, google cookies stay forever and track where you browse.

As this company whose primary source of revenue is in collecting & using personal data to target ads gets their hands into more aspects of our lives from online document reading services to cellphone operating systems ;it is more important than ever that Google be watched closely and be encouraged to have clear cut & fair privacy policies.

If people start looking a little closer at the TOS of a social networking site, or think twice before enabling the location on feature of their cellphone all the time after reading about this issue, then GOOD!
MyDogHsFleas
Premium Member
join:2007-08-15
Austin, TX

MyDogHsFleas

Premium Member

Re: This is the catalyst that will make people care.

said by thender:

gmail allows one's email to be read,
OK I'll PM you my gmail ID if you bet me $1000 that you can send me one of my emails.

Oh, I'm sorry... you meant Google can read gmail, not just "gmail allows one's email to be read" ??

OK, then... let's ask Google. Do they read your email? Um, no, not in the commonly accepted meaning of the term "read".

They have automated scans that determine what ads to display, so that they can get some revenue for this free service. Some people think this is a big privacy problem, but when put factually as "gmail displays ads for you based on the context of your email", most people don't have a problem with it.

Look, if you don't want advertising-paid webmail, pay for a service that doesn't have ads! This is not a privacy issue, it's a business model question.
google cookies stay forever and track where you browse.
Not really at all. Too long for me to rebut here, just read the Google disclosure which is quite specific.

thender
Screen tycoon
Premium Member
join:2009-01-01
Brooklyn, NY

2 edits

thender

Premium Member

Re: This is the catalyst that will make people care.

said by MyDogHsFleas:
said by thender:

gmail allows one's email to be read,
OK I'll PM you my gmail ID if you bet me $1000 that you can send me one of my emails.

Oh, I'm sorry... you meant Google can read gmail, not just "gmail allows one's email to be read" ??

OK, then... let's ask Google. Do they read your email? Um, no, not in the commonly accepted meaning of the term "read".

They have automated scans that determine what ads to display, so that they can get some revenue for this free service. Some people think this is a big privacy problem, but when put factually as "gmail displays ads for you based on the context of your email", most people don't have a problem with it.

Look, if you don't want advertising-paid webmail, pay for a service that doesn't have ads! This is not a privacy issue, it's a business model question.
google cookies stay forever and track where you browse.
Not really at all. Too long for me to rebut here, just read the Google disclosure which is quite specific.
It's the end of a long workday, I meant to put read by their servers. I didn't intend to imply that I or mr john next door can read your email, that was terrible phrasing on my part.

My point was that Google consistently comes out with new products & services that gets its hands on its users' private & personal data(From email to calendar to your location, contacts list, etc), while simultaneously being a company that profits off using that data. It seems like everyday they come out with some new service that kills everything else, for free, with the only catch being they get to hold onto my personal data and use it to sell me ads.

Issues that arise that prompt the public to think twice about the privacy implications of using such services aren't necessarily a bad thing. I use an android phone, gmail, google calendar, and google search. However, ten years from now, if their stock tanks, the "don't be evil" philosophy can go out the window if the public doesn't keep them in check.

Ioweyou
@comcast.net

Ioweyou

Anon

Accidental! Okay, two thoughts here

What did they need wi-fi receiving equipment in their cars for? What possible use could any data they collected have in making a freaking road map. None that I can see.

And.. if it was accidental and admitting it may dismiss them from any liability then I can go out and kill somebody and say it was accidental so I don't have to assume any liability?

And I don't care if any of the data is useable or not. It was just plain wrong!
jus10
join:2009-08-04
Gainesville, VA

jus10

Member

Re: Accidental! Okay, two thoughts here

It cross references broadcasting wifi access points to determine a users location. The iPhone 2G had this before they started integrating GPS. The W3C has a whole Geo spec they are working on here: »www.w3.org/2003/01/geo/

Or if you're using a modern browser on a computer with wifi, say Chrome or Firefox, go to maps.google.com and click on the little dot on the left side of the map above the Gold Guy's head. A second later I'm zoomed in on my house. It works better in populated areas of course.
jus10

jus10

Member

I see the loons are about

*buys stock in tinfoil manufacturers*

I think this thing is a bit overblown. Google needs to delete the payload data. I'm sure they'll do that. If users aren't encrypting their data over the air then Google's little photographing dune buggies aren't the worry. Their neighbor who has the time to really read the data might be more of a concern.

In the meantime we'll have to listen to every nutbag who thinks that Google is a demon or whatnot. I don't buy into that. I think Google's problem is they have a lot of engineers who think of really cool stuff, but don't have enough folks who think about what the average person will think of it, or someong to ask "uh, did you guys double-check we're only getting SSIDs and GPS coordinates"?

I'd like to apply for that job Google. Please let me know where I can send my resume!

Noah Vail
Oh God please no.
Premium Member
join:2004-12-10
SouthAmerica

Noah Vail

Premium Member

Google has your data = BAD | Government has your data = GOOD

The German Gov has demanded possession of a drive of contested data. They Damn Google having this data, then demand to have it themselves.

When has a belief that one's government is inherently trustworthy EVER worked out in the long run?

NV

avenison
join:2009-12-10
90121

avenison

Member

Here comes my plain-text data, please cover your eyes.

I'm waiting to see how many angry pitchfork-wielding anti-googlites convert when their [indentities aren't mysteriously stolen/bank accounts aren't drained/facebook accounts aren't graffiti'd] in the many months following the Maps' cars passing by. Oh wait, how long have they been doing this?

packetscan
Premium Member
join:2004-10-19
Bridgeport, CT

packetscan

Premium Member

non issue

While the headlines and faux investigations may get peoples attention. The real issue is any joe blow can drive around collecting the same information.

Be it ignorance, lack of knowledge, which ever; this is data people left out in the open.