  burgerwars
join:2004-09-11 Northridge, CA
·voip.ms
·RoadRunner Cable
| Just charge for those calls. If the FCC eventually forces VOIP carriers to carry those numbers then all they have to do is charge for them, whether it's five cents or 10 cents a minute. I don't think the FCC can force VOIP carriers not to charge, and thus continue to lose money on this. After all, these services are making their money off the carriers, so it should be their right to pass on the charges. | |
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 |   Epoe
@covad.net
| Re: Just charge for those calls. That's right
The problem comes from not charging enough for the representations being made and the consumer suffers.
Everybody believes Google Voice is a phone service except for Google Voice. They hold them selves out as a Voice Service Provider. They make representations that at least need the involvement of a Voice Service Provider. They connect to the PSTN. The customers thinks that Google is a Voice Service Provider connected to the PSTN | |
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 |   NOVA_Guy Obama- Commander in Thief Premium join:2002-03-05 | Re: Why were rural teleco's allowed to charge higher rates? And what's the problem with Google Voice deciding to do this? They provide a free service to people that does not fall under the government regulations we're talking about, so as far as I can tell they're free to do what they want. | |
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 |  |   amigo_boy
join:2005-07-22 Tempe, AZ
·Cox HSI
·magicjack.com
| Re: Why were rural teleco's allowed to charge higher rates? said by NOVA_Guy :And what's the problem with Google Voice deciding to do this? They provide a free service to people that does not fall under the government regulations we're talking about, so as far as I can tell they're free to do what they want. Maybe that's a "loophole" too. Maybe VoIP has reached a level of ubiquity that it should be better regulated.
Also, your emphasis on "free" implies Google doesn't have a profit motive or receive an imputed value by providing it. RoI may be something else we need to think about beyond traditional bottom-line numbers.
The only argument I've heard which made sense (that GV should be less regulated) is that they aren't providing an end-user telephone service. It's just call forwarding. (However, I've read GV can be used with SIP as an end-user service. But, it sounds like GV tries to prevent that.).
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 |   Telco_Eng
@verizon.net
| I don't have numbers to back this statement, but I have been told by an expert that rural companies charge more due to historical lower incoming call volumes. Since more rural carriers customers call into the larger ILEC exchanges, in order to even out the costs, they charge higher rates when larger ILEC customers call into the rural carriers. This worked to keep the costs even over the years, so the large ILEC and the rural carriers were close to a net of zero for payments to connect calls to each other. Today, we have the conference calling compaines that have shifted the incoming call volumes to an extreme in ways that were never thought to be a problem. | |
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  n2jtx
join:2001-01-13 Glen Head, NY
·Optimum Online
| Fix The Loophole The FCC needs to fix the loophole and get the traffic pumpers out of the business. In the meantime, as the article points out, Google is not a common carrier and also does not get USF money. Why should they be forced to participate in funding the traffic pumpers. Hopefully after this blows over, Congress get smack AT&T around a little. -- I support the right to keep and arm bears. | |
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 |   NOVA_Guy Obama- Commander in Thief Premium join:2002-03-05 | Re: Fix The Loophole The best way to smack AT&T around a little would be for Congress to do nothing about the traffic pumpers. | |
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 |  |  jester121
join:2003-08-09 Lake Zurich, IL | Re: Fix The Loophole Very little. We're not talking about billions of dollars here. | |
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 |  |  |   NOVA_Guy Obama- Commander in Thief Premium join:2002-03-05 | Re: Fix The Loophole That leads me to ask why AT&T wants to make this such a big deal then. For them to spend time and money focusing on it, it must be causing them grief somehow. | |
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 |  |  |  |   ropeguru Premium join:2001-01-25 Bridgeport, WV clubs:
·VOIPo
| Re: Fix The Loophole said by NOVA_Guy :That leads me to ask why AT&T wants to make this such a big deal then. For them to spend time and money focusing on it, it must be causing them grief somehow. I think it is the only way they can move the spotlight off themselves for all their other crap.
Hell, they cannot even get it right as to what law/regulation is even being broken. Sad part is, the media and normal people are too ignorant to realize that what AT&T is screaming about has nothing to do with net neutrality. | |
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 |  |  |  |  |  rahvin112
join:2002-05-24 Sandy, UT
| Re: Fix The Loophole The problem with ATT claims is that google isn't a carrier. They have backhauls to their data centers but they don't have a national network that delivers last mile service. Network Neutrality doesn't apply. NN is all about the last mile, it's about your ISP blocking traffic, not some free service that doesn't work with a few numbers. | |
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 |  |  |  |  |  |   amigo_boy
join:2005-07-22 Tempe, AZ
·Cox HSI
·magicjack.com
| Re: Fix The Loophole said by rahvin112 :NN is all about the last mile, it's about your ISP blocking traffic, I'm not an expert on NN, but it seems like if the principle is desirable at your end of the line, it should be (and must be) desirable across the entire network.
This article says that's exactly the case. That it's an end-to-end principle:
quote: The idea is that a maximally useful public information network aspires to treat all content, sites, and platforms equally. This allows the network to carry every form of information and support every kind of application. The principle suggests that information networks are often more valuable when they are less specialized when they are a platform for multiple uses, present and future. (For people who know more about network design, what is just described is similar to the "end-to-end" design principle). -- »timwu.org/network_neutrality.html
That makes sense to me. Why should an entity further upstream be able to make choices about which content is profitable, desirable, etc., but the last entity (the customer's ISP) shouldn't? What kind of principle is that?
I think ATT makes a good point. They're prevented by law from blocking numbers. Google isn't, and they block them. And, Google's the loudest muckracker over so-called neutrality (when it's at ATT's expense).
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 |  |  |  |  |  |  |  rahvin112
join:2002-05-24 Sandy, UT
| Re: Fix The Loophole Yes NN means any CARRIER can't discriminate. Google isn't a Carrier. They don't provide last mile service or provide long haul network capacity for any site other than their own.
It simply doesn't apply to them because they aren't preventing you from using the service. Google Voice won't connect to the numbers but you aren't prevented from connecting to a service that does.
NN is all about ISP and carriers blocking or slowing traffic for profit or advantage. Google isn't providing any carrier services. If ATT decides to block traffic to Google all their customers including long haul could be prevented from completely accessing the web site. If Google blocked a site no one would even know because Google doesn't provide connections.
You've fallen into the trap ATT wants you to, by redefining what NN is so that they can use it as a weapon against NN itself. The quote you provided talks about CARRIER networks exclusively but you blindly follow the ATT illogic in applying it against Google Voice which is a service on the network, not a carrier network. | |
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join:2005-07-22 Tempe, AZ
·Cox HSI
·magicjack.com
1 edit | Re: Fix The Loophole said by rahvin112 :Yes NN means any CARRIER can't discriminate. Google isn't a Carrier. They don't provide last mile service or provide long haul network capacity for any site other than their own. Well, I'll leave it to others who understand (care about) Network Neutrality more than I do.
But, it seems extremely self-serving for Google to provide a service that's usually provided by last-mile providers, and then block numbers to consumers of other last-mile providers, and for Google to say Network Neutrality doesn't apply to them just because they're not a last-mile provider (or a carrier who might affect consumers of last-mile providers).
It seems like you're arguing the technicality of Network Neutrality, not the spirit. It's the spirit which Google has championed, but doesn't want applied to themselves.
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 |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  majortom1029
join:2006-10-19 Lindenhurst, NY | Considering google can now be used as your phones voice mail they should follow by the same rules that att and verizon do. | |
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join:2001-01-13 Glen Head, NY
·Optimum Online
| Re: Fix The Loophole said by majortom1029 :Considering google can now be used as your phones voice mail they should follow by the same rules that att and verizon do. Then they should be entitled to all the tax breaks and USF payments that the others get which basically "socializes" the services of AT&T and Verizon already. If Google does not get any government/taxpayer handouts, why should they be subject to those taxpayer protection rules? -- I support the right to keep and arm bears. | |
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 |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |   amigo_boy
join:2005-07-22 Tempe, AZ
·Cox HSI
·magicjack.com
| Re: Fix The Loophole said by n2jtx :said by majortom1029 :Considering google can now be used as your phones voice mail they should follow by the same rules that att and verizon do. Then they should be entitled to all the tax breaks and USF payments that the others get which basically "socializes" the services of AT&T and Verizon already. If Google does not get any government/taxpayer handouts, why should they be subject to those taxpayer protection rules? I think USF and tax breaks go more to the point that incumbent carriers are different than VoIP because they're required (or subsidized) to provide service where, if left to "free markets" service wouldn't exist. That's the reasoning behind the poorly-written rural telco rules which created the condition for Google (unregulated) to block numbers that ATT (regulated) can't.
I think the question of whether VoIP (and Google Voice) should be regulated goes to the question of how ubiquitous they are becoming, and if left to "free market" forces will they present the kind of risks to the "national interest" that we sought to protect ourselves from when regulating incumbent carriers. Not necessarily cherry-picking service areas. But, the whole thing of network hardness, reliability, visibility by regulators.
I.e., what if GV became the hub for all telephone users, and one day it goes out of business? What effect would that have on our national interest? If all anyone knows each other by is there GV number? (The "too big to fail" problem that we're experiencing now in the financial markets after 25 years of deregulatory politics and "free markets" turned into a Theory of Everything?).
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 |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |   amigo_boy
join:2005-07-22 Tempe, AZ
·Cox HSI
·magicjack.com
| Re: Fix The Loophole said by r81984 :said by majortom1029 :Considering google can now be used as your phones voice mail they should follow by the same rules that att and verizon do. Why? Google is not even a phone service. ... Doesn't it depend on what we call a "phone service?"
A few years ago people said VoIP isn't a phone service because they don't own copper. Today, we've come to a "new normal" of what is a phone service.
Google's definitely providing a service involving phones, and it's to the same end users that more traditional providers serve. It interconnects to those traditional providers.
I believe that it won't be too long before we view that as a type of "phone service," presenting its own set of challenges, risks, etc.
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 |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |   amigo_boy
join:2005-07-22 Tempe, AZ
·Cox HSI
·magicjack.com
| Re: Fix The Loophole said by r81984 :You need phone service to use google voice. Unless google voice becomes a stand alone voip it will never be phone service. It depends on how you define "phone service." Does it have to cost money? Does it have to be your primary service, or something that interconnects to (and largely becomes, based upon your usage,) your phone service.
Just because it's different, I wouldn't say "it's not a phone service." It could present the kind of challenges and risks that caused us to regulate traditional phone companies, and more recently VoIP.
It's much closer to being a "phone service" than a conference-calling service is. It provides you a DID (from a regulated CLEC?). The service you receive from that DID is largely the same service you receive from your primary "phone service." It interconnects to others who use more traditional "phone service." Just because it "fronts" your primary "phone service" doesn't mean it's not a "phone service." Just that it's a new type of service, much the same way VoIP was new a few years ago, and the challenges/risks it posed weren't fully understood until adoption increased.
It's qualities make it close enough to a "phone service" to me that I wouldn't automatically reject the need for regulation.
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 |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |   amigo_boy
join:2005-07-22 Tempe, AZ
·Cox HSI
·magicjack.com
| Re: Fix The Loophole said by r81984 :It is not a phone service any more than using a calling card is. That seems like apples and oranges. You don't get a DID with a calling card. You don't use a calling card to front-end your phone service, replacing it to a large extent, handing out your Google phone number instead of your real phone number, and dependent upon the underlying CLEC(?) servicing the number you've handed out to everyone.
I'm not saying Google is the same as ATT. But, neither are VoIP companies. But, they've come to be regulated (such as number porting, etc.).
I'm keeping an open mind about Google. It may present challenges/risks that would would benefit from regulation.
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  ropeguru Premium join:2001-01-25 Bridgeport, WV clubs:
·VOIPo
| Just proves further.. That no one should even listen to AT&T and their crap. Mainly because the blocking of phone numbers has NOTHING to do with net neutrality. Net neutrality addresses the openess of the internet pipe from content provider to user not phone numbers. If they cannot even get it right by the definition of what it is, why should we even listen to them when they speak?
Not to mention, as is stated in the article, Google isn't breaking any type of regulation. AT&T is just crying a sob story again because they are a bunch of babies. | |
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 |  dynodb Premium,VIP join:2004-04-21 Minneapolis, MN
| Re: Just proves further.. said by ropeguru :That no one should even listen to AT&T and their crap. Mainly because the blocking of phone numbers has NOTHING to do with net neutrality. Net neutrality addresses the openess of the internet pipe from content provider to user not phone numbers. For quite some time now we've been approaching the point in which the distinction between "phone numbers" and "the internet pipe" is wholly irrelevant.
Why should data that happens to convey voice be treated differently than any other kind of data? Is this not an example of Google blocking a content provider simply because the content is voice?
Hopefully the end result of all this is that the FCC finally does something about the traffic pumping scam. | |
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 |  |  rahvin112
join:2002-05-24 Sandy, UT
| Re: Just proves further.. Google isn't an ISP. They don't deliver last mile service. Their blocking of numbers doesn't prevent anyone from using those numbers through another service, possibly one provided by their own ISP. NN is all about the ISP to customer connection, not some free service on the internet.
What really needs to happen is the FCC needs to shut down these traffic pumping rural carriers by setting a limit on the amount of money a rural phone company can get from unequal termination fees. | |
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  Epoe
@covad.net
| Google Complains of High Costs How is it that Google complains of the high costs of providing a free connectivity on a network that is based on a per minute pricing model.
This is an Anti Trust Violation (selling a service below your cost for an extended period of time to gain competitive advantage and gain control over the customer base).
Google must pay for connectivity because they are complaining about the cost of providing connectivity.
If you can understand that then you can understand that any cost is high if you are not charging enough to cover your costs.
If you can understand that then you can understand that Google's current reasoning applies to all of the calls they connect because they all have a cost but Google is not charging.
Thus by Google's reasoning if they want to they could block all calls. | |
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 |  rahvin112
join:2002-05-24 Sandy, UT
| Re: Google Complains of High Costs You don't know anything about trust or the sherman anti-trust law. There is nothing illegal about obtaining a trust. It's illegal for a Trust to use their trust to force their way into another market. Google isn't a Trust any more than ATT is. Until they are a Trust your complaint is hogwash. | |
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 Radioman991
join:2001-09-24 Dayton, OH | That logo... ...is the greatest google doodle ever. | |
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