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story category Google: White Space Tests Were 'Rigged'
White space rhetoric war continues...
(old news - 09:24AM Thursday Sep 25 2008)
tags: competition · business · wireless · alternatives · Google
Microsoft, Dell, Google and the Wireless Innovation Alliance declared yesterday "White Spaces" Day, to pitch the idea of using spectrum partially freed from the migration to digital TV to offer a new form of inexpensive wireless broadband. The lobbying fight on this front has been heavy, with the National Association of Broadcasters and incumbents, wary of new competition, using PR campaigns to suggest the new devices will cause wireless armageddon. Google Co-Founder Larry Page yesterday raised the rhetoric bar by declaring the FCC's tests of these new devices were "rigged." More from Page:
"All the FCC has to do is say 'you can produce this device if it's shown that it doesn't cause interference,'" Page said. But political pressure from broadcasters has turned policy-making in a "perverse" direction by reframing the debate so that "you shouldn't even try" because the devices might cause interference. "This notion that we're hearing from the broadcasters that it will cause interference...is garbage, it's not true."
Google offers a little more support on their claims of rigged testing over at the Google blog, where they claim that microphone manufacturers weren't playing by the rules during recent tests at an NFL stadium and a NYC theater:
...actions suggest that wireless microphone operators actually transmitted not on their normal channels but instead on channels occupied by TV broadcast signals. For instance during the Fed Ex Field test, wireless microphones were improperly used on the very station that carried the broadcast of the game. As a result, the white spaces devices naturally could not detect the microphone signals, as they were hidden by the much more powerful TV signals.
With so much lobbying muscle on both sides of this debate, the policy rhetoric overshadowed the technical discussion some time ago. At this point, everyone's waiting on the FCC's latest results from their white space testing in the suburbs of Maryland. Ideally, these devices should detect and avoid nearby transmissions, but early FCC testing of a Microsoft prototype seemed to indicate this wasn't always successful. Later testing of units from other manufacturers seemed to indicate that detection and avoidance was possible.

Related:
  1. Google, You're a Wireless Tease
  2. Google Launches White Space Broadband Website
  3. Unlimited Smartphone Voice/Data For $70 A Month?
  4. Cable Industry Jumps Into White Space Fight
  5. AT&T Network Can't Handle Slingbox For iPhone?
  6. Clearwire: We're Not Aiming To Unseat Telcos
  7. Motorola Androids To Hit T-Mobile, Verizon
  8. Google Voice Invitations Going Out
Forums » Google: White Space Tests Were 'Rigged'
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nasadude

join:2001-10-05
Rockville, MD
·Comcast

FCC is incompetent

The FCC is no longer competent to do anything technical. In cases where it does display technical competence, politics intrudes to change or surpress the results, depending on the outcome desired.

FCC decisions aren't based on technical grounds and haven't been for years.

Transmaster
Don't Blame Me I Voted For Bill and Opus

join:2001-06-20
Cheyenne, WY
·Qwest.net

Re: FCC is incompetent

Those of us who are Ham Radio operators have know this for years. The FCC used to be run by engineers now it is political hacks, just like everyone else in political position in Washington DC,they are there to feather their own nests. By the way DC has come to mean "Da Cash" .
--
Send a prayer to Allah, eat Beans.

DavePR

join:2008-06-04
·DSL EXTREME

Re: FCC is incompetent

I am an amateur radio operator and I have been carefully following the testing done by the FCC and I assure you that they are quite competent, especially with Philips guys and Shure guys constantly looking over their shoulders.

The interference issues are valid and Larry Page is a spoiled child.

Transmaster
Don't Blame Me I Voted For Bill and Opus

join:2001-06-20
Cheyenne, WY

Re: FCC is incompetent

It isn't the people in the background that are the problem, these are good people. It is the FCC Commissoners that are the problem
--
Send a prayer to Allah, eat Beans.
nasadude

join:2001-10-05
Rockville, MD

Re: FCC is incompetent

and that is the spirit in which I meant my criticism.

asdfdfdfdfdfdfdf

@Level3.net

Links for more information...

Since the ipdemocracy article gave no detail about the claim of the test being rigged, which makes it sound like sour grapes on google's part, here is a bit more information about google's complaints with the test.

»googlepublicpolicy.blogspot.com/···ces.html

»fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retr···20038596

Specifically they claim microphone operators were themselves improperly transmitting on tv spectrum, in violation of fcc rules.
They also claim that the fact that this was going on, at higher power levels then proposed wireless devices, and didn't cause interference problems with local residents is an indication of how overblown the concerns are.

The broadcast industry response is that the large number of wireless devices that will likely be involved is much more significant than a small number of microphones managed by a limited number of people.

MrMoody
Liberal Capitalist

join:2002-09-03
Smithfield, NC
·Skype
·magicjack.com

Re: Links for more information...

said by asdfdfdfdfdfdfdf :

They also claim that the fact that this was going on, at higher power levels then proposed wireless devices, and didn't cause interference problems with local residents is an indication of how overblown the concerns are.
And how do they know it didn't cause problems? Did they ask? Would the average person complain to the FCC if his digital TV was blocking or glitching for a few minutes during the day? Would they have any clue why it happened if they were even home to see it? That's the problem with digital vs. analog interference. With an analog TV signal, interference is obviously interference. With digital, it's indistinguishable from any other reception error.
The broadcast industry response is that the large number of wireless devices that will likely be involved is much more significant than a small number of microphones managed by a limited number of people.
Yes, and the distance between neighboring houses is much smaller than the distance between a football stadium and any house.
--
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jester121

join:2003-08-09
Lake Zurich, IL
·ViaTalk

Re: Links for more information...

said by MrMoody See Profile :

That's the problem with digital vs. analog interference. With an analog TV signal, interference is obviously interference. With digital, it's indistinguishable from any other reception error.
Huh?
nasadude

join:2001-10-05
Rockville, MD
·Comcast

said by asdfdfdfdfdfdfdf :

...

The broadcast industry response is that the large number of wireless devices that will likely be involved is much more significant than a small number of microphones managed by a limited number of people.
wireless microphones are used by the NFL, megachurches and many other organizations that use them without obtaining licenses. This large group of wireless mic users have been getting away with this because there weren't any problems. Now all of a sudden they are worried about white space devices causing them problems!

»www.publicknowledge.org/node/1665

Briefly, the vast majority of wireless microphone users have no right to use the broadcast white spaces. While the number of wireless microphone users may exceed 1 million, only 952 users have actually licensed systems. In theory, the FCC should be sending out SWAT teams and busting every Broadway theater, business conference center, and megachurch that filed in the white spaces proceeding and confessed to a federal felony. But the reality is more complicated, especially as most of these folks have no clue that they are spending hundreds, if not thousands, of dollars on systems that make them “radio pirates” subject to confiscation of equipment and a fine of $11,000 per violation per day.

LiamJunket
Premium
join:2002-03-03
Ocean City, NJ
·Comcast

said by asdfdfdfdfdfdfdf :

Specifically they claim microphone operators were themselves improperly transmitting on tv spectrum, in violation of fcc rules.
They also claim that the fact that this was going on, at higher power levels then proposed wireless devices, and didn't cause interference problems with local residents is an indication of how overblown the concerns are.

The broadcast industry response is that the large number of wireless devices that will likely be involved is much more significant than a small number of microphones managed by a limited number of people.

I have to agree with the broadcasters here. A couple microphones doesn't present the kind of threat that thousands of unlicensed devices would create.

And nowhere does Page or anyone else prove they won't cause interference. The FCC's test say they will. All that Page and the Coalition can say is that allow the new service and the problems will be worked out later.
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rit56

join:2000-12-01
New York, NY


1 edit

Re: Links for more information...

In all fairness BBR should attach a disclaimer to your avatar stating that you may have been an employee of and may still be plus you have a major financial interest in the bottom line of the Teleco's and you couldn't care less for the consumer or those of us who are tired of being overcharged for crappy service. You're an industry hack. There's nothing wrong with that except you attempt to come across as someone who is non biased but people who have been reading and participating here for years know the difference. Did it ever occur to you that we the consumer would like to have a third choice? I would dump TWC in a minute if this was available.

MrMoody
Liberal Capitalist

join:2002-09-03
Smithfield, NC
·Skype
·magicjack.com

Re: Links for more information...

said by rit56 See Profile :

Did it ever occur to you that we the consumer would like to have a third choice? I would dump TWC in a minute if this was available.
I can see I am going to have to keep harping on this every time this subject comes up. What makes you think WSDs will be a viable alternative to cable internet? The whole idea is ludicrous. It CANNOT and WILL NOT be, any more than EVDO or any other wireless broadband already is. There's not enough bandwidth. Best possible case, it would be a little cheaper but much more limited.

And for the record, I disagree with TKJunkMail more often than I agree with him, and I have no vested interest in either broadcasters, mic manufacturers, or the coalition, but he's right on this one.

The simple fact is the coalition wants in the digital wireless business on the cheap and are promising YOU things they cannot deliver to get what they want.
--
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PDXPLT

join:2003-12-04
Banks, OR

said by LiamJunket See Profile :

I have to agree with the broadcasters here. A couple microphones doesn't present the kind of threat that thousands of unlicensed devices would create.
But that's it - it's not just "a couple of microphones". There are well over 100K unlicensed wireless microphones, operating as "white space" devices, albeit illegally. They serve as an Existence Proof that white space devices can be sucessfully deployed. If white space devices were going to cause a big problem, we'd be seeing some indication of it now. But the sky hasn't fallen, contrary to the dire predictions of the broadcasters (who don't want competition for eyeballs) and the wireless microphone vendors (who are used to having the white space all to themselves, on an illegal basis).

DavePR

join:2008-06-04
·DSL EXTREME

Re: Links for more information...

said by PDXPLT See Profile :

said by LiamJunket See Profile :

I have to agree with the broadcasters here. A couple microphones doesn't present the kind of threat that thousands of unlicensed devices would create.
But that's it - it's not just "a couple of microphones". There are well over 100K unlicensed wireless microphones, operating as "white space" devices, albeit illegally. They serve as an Existence Proof that white space devices can be sucessfully deployed.
Wireless microphones are very low power (ca. 10 > 100 milliWatts)on very narrow bands. The White Space Devices proposed use much more power (250 mW or more) and they produce a wideband envelope. When wireless mics are "slotted" into existing occupied TV channels, they use intercarrier spaces and do not interfere. Analog FM and wideband digital are apples and oranges.
nasadude

join:2001-10-05
Rockville, MD
·Comcast

said by LiamJunket See Profile :

I have to agree with the broadcasters here. A couple microphones doesn't present the kind of threat that thousands of unlicensed devices would create.

...
what part of

While the number of wireless microphone users may exceed 1 million...

did you not understand? The one million part?

LiamJunket
Premium
join:2002-03-03
Ocean City, NJ
·Comcast

Re: Links for more information...

said by nasadude See Profile :

said by LiamJunket See Profile :

I have to agree with the broadcasters here. A couple microphones doesn't present the kind of threat that thousands of unlicensed devices would create.

...
what part of

While the number of wireless microphone users may exceed 1 million...

did you not understand? The one million part?
The part where the source of that number backs it up with zero facts. I don't believe it at all.
--
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asdfdfdfdfdfdf

@Level3.net

"nowhere does Page or anyone else prove they won't cause interference. The FCC's test say they will."

At this point I don't think these devices are even transmitting, they are being tested for how effectively they are able to detect signals from microphones etc.
Their record appears to be less than perfect on this, but not as horrible as opponents claim. Whether the technology should have to be perfect before it is allowed to be developed commercially should be another discussion because I don't think that is the standard that is typically used.
At any rate this is quite a distance from saying that these devices will interfere and an even further distance from saying that they will bring enormous chaos.

DavePR

join:2008-06-04
·DSL EXTREME

Re: Links for more information...

said by
At this point I don't think these devices are even transmitting, they are being tested for how effectively they are able to detect signals from microphones etc.
Their record appears to be less than perfect on this, but not as horrible as opponents claim. Whether the technology should have to be perfect before it is allowed to be developed commercially should be another discussion because I don't think that is the standard that is typically used.
At any rate this is quite a distance from saying that these devices will interfere and an even further distance from saying that they will bring enormous chaos.
[/BQUOTE :


The problem is largely that a rooftop antenna can receive a perfect DTV picture from a channel that a little stub antenna on the WSD cannot detect from some kid's bedroom. The kid's WSD will start transmitting on that channel and could easily wipe out the rooftop antenna's picture.
Sammer

join:2005-12-22
Pittsburgh, PA

Re: Links for more information...

said by DavePR See Profile :

The problem is largely that a rooftop antenna can receive a perfect DTV picture from a channel that a little stub antenna on the WSD cannot detect from some kid's bedroom. The kid's WSD will start transmitting on that channel and could easily wipe out the rooftop antenna's picture.
Bingo, licensed fixed white space devices can have large enough antennas properly polarized but cheap unlicensed portable devices won't have adequate antennas to always detect TV signals. Where they will be used (in close proximity to people watching TV) will also be very different than the non-residential venues where wireless microphones are typically used.
systems2000
What? You Say It's Fixed. Hah

join:2001-11-29
Cyberspace
·Embarq

Re: Links for more information...

Thus the issue I have with "White-Space" devices. I'm at 76 miles from the DTV transmitters with a Channel Master 3020 VHF/UHF/FM antenna, that is elevated 60' above ground level. I have 2-edge reception with a Channel Master pre-amp. I don't get nearly the DTV channels I do analog and I'm waiting for Feb 2009 to hopefully get better results.

This "White-Space" issue could be the nail in the coffin of OTA for me.
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asdfdfdfdfdfdf

@Level3.net

A petition and why google believes this will be political...

»arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20···ing.html

quote:
The entire campaign is of interest because the white spaces broadband issue has been brewing for years, but until now backers have largely said, "Let the science decide!" Since the main objection raised by TV broadcasters and wireless microphone makers is interference, the pro-white spaces alliance (represented by groups like the Wireless Innovation Alliance) have said that the issue should be decided by the nonpartisan Office of Engineering Technology at the FCC, which has been testing the devices.

But it's becoming increasingly clear to the various parties we have spoken with on the issue that the OET won't issue a "yes/no" recommendation. With the second wave of testing now complete and the OET report apparently being drafted, most parties are convinced that it will offer maximum wiggle room to the commissioners and fodder for both sides.

The decision will come down to a nontechnical, political choice (how much likelihood of noninterference do we need to approve this?) rather than a simple binary question (will this interfere or won't it?). That means the campaign for and against white spaces will become explicitly political rather than technical in the next few months.
The petition is here:

»www.freetheairwaves.com/takeAction.html
russotto

join:2000-10-05
Collegeville, PA

White Spaces = bad idea

All you need is a nearby white space device operating on a channel adjacent to the TV channel you want to watch and you'll lose the TV channel. If you have any amplification in your system prior to the TV, a nearby white space device _anywhere_ in the band can wipe out _all_ your channels.

funchords
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Re: White Spaces = bad idea

said by russotto See Profile :

All you need is a nearby white space device operating on a channel adjacent to the TV channel you want to watch and you'll lose the TV channel. If you have any amplification in your system prior to the TV, a nearby white space device _anywhere_ in the band can wipe out _all_ your channels.
I'm glad you wrote it _all_, otherwise your sensationalism wouldn't have been _so_obvious_.

We're talking after the DTV transition, so if you're watching anything, it'll be Sheep Herding in the Snow.
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Sammer

join:2005-12-22
Pittsburgh, PA

Guaranteed to interfere!

You want science to decide then it is guaranteed that these cheap made in China transmitters that are more powerful and have greater range than wireless microphones will interfere with someone's TV reception somewhere.

asdfdfdfdfdfdfdf

@Level3.net

Re: Guaranteed to interfere!

"In addition, the utilized TV channels often contained multiple microphones, and microphones at
FedEx Field transmitted at levels of up to 250 mW. In other words, total channel transmit power
was often much greater than the 100 mW maximum possible transmit power proposed by the
Coalition for personal/portable white space devices."

»fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retr···20038596

MrMoody
Liberal Capitalist

join:2002-09-03
Smithfield, NC
·Skype
·magicjack.com

Re: Guaranteed to interfere!

said by asdfdfdfdfdfdfdf :

FedEx Field transmitted at levels of up to 250 mW. In other words, total channel transmit power
was often much greater than the 100 mW maximum possible transmit power proposed by the
Coalition for personal/portable white space devices."
This just goes to show the integrity of the coalition, they are sensationalizing and playing on people's ignorance. The difference between 250 and 100 mW is 4 dB, this is only a SMALL difference, not "much greater."
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Sammer

join:2005-12-22
Pittsburgh, PA

said by asdfdfdfdfdfdfdf :

"In addition, the utilized TV channels often contained multiple microphones, and microphones at
FedEx Field transmitted at levels of up to 250 mW. In other words, total channel transmit power
was often much greater than the 100 mW maximum possible transmit power proposed by the
Coalition for personal/portable white space devices."

»fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retr···20038596
The whole point of white space devices is that there will be multiples of them (probably many more than wireless microphones) and that they will have much greater range than WiFi devices. Besides most people don't live next door to FedEx Field while many will be in close proximity to someone using the internet. The ATSC digital television standard that became the law of the land in 1996 was not designed to co-exist with the proposed white space devices.

Matt
Quitting Caffeine - Argh
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join:2003-07-20
Jamestown, NC
·North State Commun..

Ummm, what?

said by Article :

As a result, the white spaces devices naturally could not detect the microphone signals, as they were hidden by the much more powerful TV signals.
So, if the microphones were transmitting on top of active, powerful TV signals ... why in the hell were the whitespace devices transmitting there too? Shouldn't they have avoided the frequencies altogether since there were TV signals present?

Am I misunderstanding something? (Which is entirely possible.)
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nasadude

join:2001-10-05
Rockville, MD
·Comcast

Re: Ummm, what?

one purpose of the test was to detect if ANY "licensed" device (in addition to a TV station) was using a white space frequency and then stay away from that frequency.

one complaint from the "white space deniers" was that the devices didn't detect all of the wireless microphones, but this was because the microphones themselves were using the same frequency as a TV channel (but apparently not causing any problem for TV reception) and thus hidden in the stronger TV signal (which was detected, but identified as being used by a TV channel, not a wireless mic).

As my post above points out however, only about 0.1% of wireless mics are licensed for use. It appears to be OK to be a "rogue" wireless microphone user, but not a licensed white space device user.

Matt
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Re: Ummm, what?

said by nasadude See Profile :

one purpose of the test was to detect if ANY "licensed" device (in addition to a TV station) was using a white space frequency and then stay away from that frequency.

one complaint from the "white space deniers" was that the devices didn't detect all of the wireless microphones, but this was because the microphones themselves were using the same frequency as a TV channel (but apparently not causing any problem for TV reception) and thus hidden in the stronger TV signal (which was detected, but identified as being used by a TV channel, not a wireless mic).

As my post above points out however, only about 0.1% of wireless mics are licensed for use. It appears to be OK to be a "rogue" wireless microphone user, but not a licensed white space device user.
Now that makes a lot more sense. Thanks for the translation.
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MrMoody
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said by nasadude See Profile :

one complaint from the "white space deniers" was that the devices didn't detect all of the wireless microphones, but this was because the microphones themselves were using the same frequency as a TV channel (but apparently not causing any problem for TV reception) and thus hidden in the stronger TV signal (which was detected, but identified as being used by a TV channel, not a wireless mic).
This doesn't make any sense. Why would the whitespace device be required to determine whether a signal is TV or a wireless mic? It wouldn't. Someone is full of crap. I want to see the actual test results.
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nasadude

join:2001-10-05
Rockville, MD
·Comcast

Re: Ummm, what?

Because wireless mic manufacturers and maybe the NFL bitched (er, filed a comment) to the FCC that white spaces devices would interfere with the use of wireless mics and the white space devices had to also avoid the freqs in the 700Mhz band the mics were using (even though most of them are "illegal" users).

this gives a good overview of this particular issue

»www.wetmachine.com/item/1284

MrMoody
Liberal Capitalist

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Smithfield, NC
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Re: Ummm, what?

said by nasadude See Profile :

Because wireless mic manufacturers and maybe the NFL bitched (er, filed a comment) to the FCC that white spaces devices would interfere with the use of wireless mics and the white space devices had to also avoid the freqs in the 700Mhz band the mics were using (even though most of them are "illegal" users).
OK, but it still doesn't make sense. The WSD should avoid a frequency in use. A mic is using the same frequency as a TV channel. The WSD should avoid that frequency in either case. What's the problem? Are they saying it couldn't detect the frequency in use because two sources are transmitting on it? If so, that's THEIR problem.

That page you point to is a highly biased opinion piece whose point is that Shure is influencing the testing, with little evidence to back it up. Again the false claim is made that the mics are a much more powerful signal than the WSDs would be. Read the first comment for some debunking.
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Matt
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Re: Ummm, what?

said by MrMoody See Profile :

said by nasadude See Profile :

Because wireless mic manufacturers and maybe the NFL bitched (er, filed a comment) to the FCC that white spaces devices would interfere with the use of wireless mics and the white space devices had to also avoid the freqs in the 700Mhz band the mics were using (even though most of them are "illegal" users).
OK, but it still doesn't make sense. The WSD should avoid a frequency in use. A mic is using the same frequency as a TV channel. The WSD should avoid that frequency in either case. What's the problem? Are they saying it couldn't detect the frequency in use because two sources are transmitting on it? If so, that's THEIR problem.
I believe he is saying the device failed to detect the wireless mics on frequency X, because they were on Frequency Y, which is TV spectrum, so the WSD didn't look there. When the device failed to detect the wireless mics on frequency X, the opponents of the WSD pointed that out as a failure in the device.

Google is saying the devices couldn't detect the mics on frequency X, because there were none there to detect! (The mics were using the TV spectrum, frequency Y.)
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asdfdfdfdfdfdfdf

@Level3.net

We are all making a lot of assumptions here.

"why in the hell were the whitespace devices transmitting there too?"

Firstly we don't know that this was happening.

I don't know any more about the details of the test than most others here. The test, according to page was specifically intended:

" ... to assess whether white space device prototypes could sense the presence of wireless microphone signals." not whether they could sense any signal.
I'm speculating as well but this suggests that specific mechanisms were in place to alter the transmitting behavior of microphones in the area to see if the device detected this. If the device was picking up other signals then it would have trouble detecting this changing behavior wouldn't it?
Again I don't know how the test was structured, but presumably google does.

asdfdfdfdfdfdf

@Level3.net

Additional information from Philips about test of their device..

»www.tvtechnology.com/article/65658

quote:
Shure said in a press release that the prototype devices (actually technology demonstration devices as opposed to prototypes of future products) “were unable to consistently identify operating wireless microphones or distinguish occupied from unoccupied TV channels.” Philips disputes that interpretation ...

Shure Senior Director for Public and Industry Relations Mark Brunner said the Philips device consistently showed channels to be nearly completely occupied even before wireless mics were turned on, while the other (from the Institute for Infocomm Research , backed by the government of Singapore) had the opposite problem, failing to detect occupied channels even after the mics were turned on.

Monisha Ghosh of Philips Research said the Philips device detected channels as occupied because they were in fact occupied—by television signals that in some cases were too weak for a regular handheld spectrum analyzer to detect. The Philips device detects whether a channel is occupied but does not display the strength of the detected signals or distinguish whether they come from wireless mics or television transmitters. It detects TV signals at a level far weaker (less than -120 dBm) than what is viewable on television or can be picked up by conventional spectrum analyzers, she said.

In the case of the FedEx Field tests, she said that in one round of testing—on the football field itself—the device successfully detected a mic turning on (on Channel 31). At higher locations, it detected that channel as occupied from the start, consistent with what FCC data indicated it might detect, she said. Once the device detects a channel as occupied by any source, that channel would be avoided by a future white space device, so there’s no need to further detect low-power wireless activity on the same channel.

“If a wireless mic is using a channel that already has a DTV or NTSC channel on it, the white space device is actually providing more protection [than a wireless mic],” she said.


Sammer

join:2005-12-22
Pittsburgh, PA

said by nasadude See Profile :

It appears to be OK to be a "rogue" wireless microphone user, but not a licensed white space device user.
Although broadcasters depend on the use of wireless microphones themselves they aren't entirely happy with the blunder the FCC has made and they definitely don't want that blunder multiplied and many broadcasters do support the use of fixed licensed white space devices. The Wireless Innovation Alliance or whatever they are calling themselves this month have been lying about the availability of white spaces from the beginning. They always fail to mention that Channels 14 through 20 are shared spectrum with Land Mobile, Channel 37 is reserved for Radio Astronomy, and that there are nearly 7000 licensed Class A, low power, and translator stations that use those so called white spaces and don't have to shut down their analog transmitters next February. FCC Chairman Martin has mentioned that as many as 15% of television markets could lose significant coverage in the digital transition and that means there will be a need for more translator stations. The number of TV broadcast stations continues to grow. By the way another use of UHF white spaces is hospital telemetry. The only full power digital TV stations not trying to get off channels 2, 3 and 4 just want to qualify for cable carriage so you can IMHO have them (as long as you don't interfere with modulators) for your unlicensed free for all but leave the rest of the TV spectrum alone.

funchords
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said by Matt See Profile :

said by Article :

As a result, the white spaces devices naturally could not detect the microphone signals, as they were hidden by the much more powerful TV signals.
So, if the microphones were transmitting on top of active, powerful TV signals ... why in the hell were the whitespace devices transmitting there too? Shouldn't they have avoided the frequencies altogether since there were TV signals present?

Am I misunderstanding something? (Which is entirely possible.)
Sounds like something is misunderstood somewhere.

Part of the problem seems to be the multiple uses of the word, "broadcasters." In some cases, they might be talking about the transmitters of a TV signal, in other cases they're talking about the production crew trying to cover the event (the broadcasters using wireless microphones). But even with that understanding, I can't parse it.
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MrMoody
Liberal Capitalist

join:2002-09-03
Smithfield, NC
·Skype
·magicjack.com

Interference?

Click for full size
Unaltered screen shot
Here's a screen shot from House M.D. I recorded off air last week. The transmitter is high power and only 12 miles away, and I have an outside antenna 25 ft off the ground. So what caused this annoying glitch? A wireless mic? Possibly, but I have no way of even making an educated guess. I'd have to buy a spectrum analyzer and directional equipment to figure out whether it was interference and the source.
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lcnoble

join:2006-11-11
Nancy, KY
·Windstream

Tests

This discussion is starting to sound like the pissing contest involving the FCC and competing parties! There appears to be enough competent expertise in this forum to perform your own tests! It would be interesting to review your independent results. If a Ford advertisement tells me their car rides like a car does not mean that if I go to the dealership and test drive the Ford it won't ride like a farm tractor! I would like to address some issues:

Wouldn't an installation company do a survey prior to entering a contract, (determining if the service was feasible), and want guarantees that no other service of any type interfered?

There is a lot of space between 55.25 Mhz to 889.2625 Mhz.

I am of the impression that interfering with licensed space is already a felony!

While performing your independent test do not forget about the frequencies used in your area and how they do not overlap other frequency areas.

By the way, do not buy the wireless keyboards and mice using the 23 Mhz frequencies, truckers with amps will stomp all over your keyboard and mouse.
jay_rm

join:2002-04-12
Netville
·Fox Valley Internet
·ViaTalk

Re: Tests

said by lcnoble See Profile :

By the way, do not buy the wireless keyboards and mice using the 23 Mhz frequencies, truckers with amps will stomp all over your keyboard and mouse.
Twenty SEVEN MHz ? ?
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3500/512 5.7 GHz Motorola Canopy Wireless; FoxValley.net
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Sammer

join:2005-12-22
Pittsburgh, PA

said by lcnoble See Profile :

There is a lot of space between 55.25 Mhz to 889.2625 Mhz.
Yes and the broadcast television spectrum will be 54 - 72 MHz (nearly worthless for digital TV), 76 - 88 MHz, 174 - 216 MHz, 470 - 512 MHz (shared with Land Mobile), 512 - 608 MHz, and 614 - 698 MHz in the USA starting Feb. 18th so what is your point.
techygeek

join:2008-04-30
·Verizon FIOS
·Optimum Online

Keep the white spaces-2160p will need poss 4x the bandwidth.

All this indifference..

These frequencies were originally reserved for the broadcasters.. In 5-10 years we will likely see 2160p (3840x2160) resolution in what they are calling Beyond HD.

Currently, these broadcasters not using some of their bandwidth doesn't mean they will never need it. Will they be able to deliver 2160p and a very good signal at that. We don't want them compressing it down to fit it in their stream so much so its not much better than 1080p. Not only that, a higher resolution picture, even one with a lower bitrate could be crippled by even moderate interference.

Also, it gives broadcasters the incentive to upgrade their networks and try to cover the troubled dark areas and if the picture is clear enough, gives people in dark areas incentive enough to buy a better antenna.

On the wireless mic issues, i imagine those conform to certain standards with the broadcasting station. I am sure they think of things such as, for example, no wireless mic can be more than 300ft from a transmitter or something like that. Also a wireless mic is usually a short range device where the transmitter and receiver is in one contained area, its not the same as a wireless network like proposed here.
Forums » Google: White Space Tests Were 'Rigged'


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