Hams To The Rescue In Northwest Flooding The glue that held rescue and recovery together... Tipped by Epikos 
The flooding in the Pacific Northwest has impacted T-Mobile customer support, severed communications lines, closed highways and overloaded area wireless networks. In the midst of communications chaos, ham radio operators are being praised as the heroes of the day by the Associated Press and area emergency officials: A network of at least 60 volunteer amateur radio operators working along the coast and inland helped from keep crucial systems such as 911 calls, American Red Cross and hospital services connected. They relayed information about patient care and relayed lists of supplies needed in areas cut off by water. says Oregon Gov. Ted Kulongoski after visiting impacted areas. "I'm going to tell you who the heroes were from the very beginning of this...the ham radio operators. These people just came in and actually provided a tremendous communication link to us."Did we mention that we've got a new ham operators forum?
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 |  |  rudnickePremium
join:2004-10-23
Rantoul, IL
kudos:1 | Re: w00t w00t! Yes. Great job HAM ops!! Thanks for all the volunteer work. | |
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 ·magicjack.com
| Re: Where was the internet? said by moonpuppy:And to think, some people here said HAM radio was dead and should be gone. I think the question is, and always has been, to what extent does it serve a useful purpose relative to the allocation of public airwaves? 60 people up and down the WA coast? Just give radio equipment to public agencies, operated on one area of government frequency. Same results. .
Ham operators remind me of some gun owners who think they're going to protect us from usurpation. Get real. Your hobby just isn't that important.
Mark | |
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1 edit | Re: Where was the internet? said by amigo_boy:said by moonpuppy:And to think, some people here said HAM radio was dead and should be gone. I think the question is, and always has been, to what extent does it serve a useful purpose relative to the allocation of public airwaves? 60 people up and down the WA coast? Just give radio equipment to public agencies, operated on one area of government frequency. Same results. . Ham operators remind me of some gun owners who think they're going to protect us from usurpation. Get real. Your hobby just isn't that important. Mark When you're talking about saving lives, how do you define 'useful purpose relative to the allocation of public airwaves'? There is NO better allocation of PUBLIC airwaves! You better hope it's never YOUR life on the hands of Hams! Also, comparing Hams to some gun nuts (Wayne La Pierre, Charlton Heston, Dick Cheney, etc.) is just ignorant.
Also, public agencies just don't have the funds to train personel and maintain the equipment for use when necessary (people don't want to pay taxes), so your solution tends to sit in a cabinet gathering dust.
BTW, I am not a Ham. | |
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·magicjack.com
| Re: Where was the internet? said by viperlmw:When you're talking about saving lives, how do you define 'useful purpose relative to the allocation of public airwaves'? We do it all the time in the case of speed limits, stop lights versus stop signs, etc. The "if it saves just one life" hyperbole is never applied in real life.
said by viperlmw:public agencies just don't have the funds to train personel and maintain the equipment for use when necessary Every officer and city worker I see carries a radio, maintained by a technician, etc., etc.
That's part of the calculus which leads me to believe this allocation of public resources should be open to reconsideration. Participants (actual licensees and actively operating licensees) are dwindling.
Mark | |
| | | | |  morboComplete Your Transaction
join:2002-01-22
00000 | Re: Where was the internet?
anti-ham comments... oh geeze. you're not a BPL advocate are you?? | |
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·magicjack.com
| Re: Where was the internet? said by morbo:anti-ham comments... oh geeze. you're not a BPL advocate are you?? It's not "anti-ham." That's the problem with ARRL activists. They're like the NRA. It's a "circle the wagons" mentality, casting all detractors as "anti-ham" (when it may be nothing more than "pro reasonableness."
Get an FRS radio and chat with your neighbor as much as you like.  The bottom line is that licensees are fewer, and of those, active ones are even fewer. How few would it take before the rare "public good" events could be better served by the National Guard? 200 licensees? 20? 2?
Activist AARL members don't represent amateur radio members generally, just as activist NRA members don't represent gun owners generally. They just think they do.
Mark | |
| | | | | | | | | Re: Where was the internet? said by amigo_boy:It's not "anti-ham." That's the problem with ARRL activists. They're like the NRA. It's a "circle the wagons" mentality, casting all detractors as "anti-ham" (when it may be nothing more than "pro reasonableness." Wow, so many ASSumptions. Fact is I have my license but do not belong to the ARRL.
You are anti-HAM. You have said multiple times it is time to re-allocate the frequencies to other uses (that other use being BPL.) You are far from being reasonable but closer to condescending.
said by amigo_boy:Get an FRS radio and chat with your neighbor as much as you like. The bottom line is that licensees are fewer, and of those, active ones are even fewer. How few would it take before the rare "public good" events could be better served by the National Guard? 200 licensees? 20? 2? What is the range of FRS? Maybe a mile or 2? What is the range of amateur radio? From a few miles to around the world.
The National Guard is pre-occupied with actual life saving activities such as rescue. Communications other than anything needed for their particular mission is way down the list.
Maybe we should get rid of the Red Cross too and replace them with a government agency. 
said by amigo_boy:Activist AARL members don't represent amateur radio members generally, just as activist NRA members don't represent gun owners generally. They just think they do. Mark So why do you lump all amateur operators as ARRL activists when they come to the defence of HAM radio?
Try again. | |
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·magicjack.com
| Re: Where was the internet? said by moonpuppy:You are anti-HAM. You have said multiple times it is time to re-allocate the frequencies to other uses (that other use being BPL.) You are far from being reasonable but closer to condescending. Everything's subject to reconsideration. Allocation of public airwaves to a dwindling population that is, at the same time, dwindling in quality is no different. Suggesting that amateur hobbyists can play on CB and FRS isn't "anti-HAM." It's just suggesting that times have changed, the population of hobbyists has changed, and perhaps what's allocated to them should change. They can still be "HAMs" reflecting this reality.
Mark | |
| | | | | | | | | | | Re: Where was the internet? said by amigo_boy:Everything's subject to reconsideration. Allocation of public airwaves to a dwindling population that is, at the same time, dwindling in quality is no different. Suggesting that amateur hobbyists can play on CB and FRS isn't "anti-HAM." It's just suggesting that times have changed, the population of hobbyists has changed, and perhaps what's allocated to them should change. They can still be "HAMs" reflecting this reality. Mark Really?
You claimed it was too easy to get in HAM radio that it should be done away with. Why not do away with FRS or CB?
The internet harbors scams and pedophiles. Maybe we should take it down too.
Try again. | |
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·magicjack.com
| Re: Where was the internet? said by moonpuppy:You claimed it was too easy to get in HAM radio that it should be done away with. Why not do away with FRS or CB? Maybe we should. But, FRS and CB don't require licensing, don't claim to be something terrific, and their users don't run around claiming to "save the day."
I could turn your slippery-slope argument back on you by saying that if you want to compare amateur radio to CB, FRS or the internet, then you should logically support unlimited, unlicensed use just like those other services.
said by moonpuppy:The internet harbors scams and pedophiles. Maybe we should take it down too. It's not a public resource?
Why the false analogies? When someone suggests amateur radio doesn't serve a need all we hear is how much it does (although, less, and less [cough, covering my mouth, slurring my speech]). But, when that line of defense doesn't pan out, then we hear how it's evidently no different than things we don't expect much from.
Mark | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Where was the internet? said by amigo_boy:Maybe we should. But, FRS and CB don't require licensing, don't claim to be something terrific, and their users don't run around claiming to "save the day." I could turn your slippery-slope argument back on you by saying that if you want to compare amateur radio to CB, FRS or the internet, then you should logically support unlimited, unlicensed use just like those other services. CB used to require a license. It became unmanageable because of people not following the rules and the government gave up. Since it did not fall under any other regulations other than Part 97 CFR, they left it alone unless there were serious infractions which are still enforced. If you don't think so, maybe you need to talk to a few people who have received $10,000 fines for illegal CB amplifiers. 
FRS is a lower power version of GMRS which was business band. Most businesses went to cell phones and the GMRS was given a lower power version called FRS. GMRS is still licensed and if you use higher powers on FRS, it needs a GMRS license.
Sorry, slippery slope not found.
said by amigo_boy:It's not a public resource? Why the false analogies? When someone suggests amateur radio doesn't serve a need all we hear is how much it does (although, less, and less [cough, covering my mouth, slurring my speech]). But, when that line of defense doesn't pan out, then we hear how it's evidently no different than things we don't expect much from. Mark Your ignorance of facts and history is astounding but I'm sure you would love your taxes raised just because you think government can do a better job.
You're suggestion also fails to think of something. The government frequencies are already filled so IF they did take the amateur bands for additional uses, you still couldn't interfere with them and this includes BPL.
Try again. | |
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| | | | | |  TransmasterDon't Blame Me I Voted For Bill and Opus
join:2001-06-20
Cheyenne, WY
4 edits | Talk about poop for brains, you really don't have a clue.
It takes a great deal of training to do this sort of thing.
Being able to establish a large area RF network is something we train for constantly. We work hand in hand with FEMA, state level emergency management agencies, police, Fire departments, hospitals, and a host of other emergency providers. In fact Hamradio operators who are part of the ARES, RACES organizations are officially classified as "First Responders" by the Office of Homeland Security.
Yet another important thing is in this day and age with restricted budgets public service agencies know they have a system they can call on that does not cost them anything, and they know we will get the job done.
Incidentally I am a life member of the NRA, and no I don't keep any of my ordinance in a rifle rack in my truck I keep them cased to protect them from getting damaged bouncing around in such a gun rack. Of course in your world being a life member of the NRA is just about on the same level as being a grand wizard of the KKK.
Read on fortunately nobody is listening to people with your ignorant point of view.
NEWINGTON, CT, Jun 24, 2003--ARRL now is an official affiliate program of Citizen Corps, an initiative within the Department of Homeland Security to enhance public preparedness and safety. ARRL President Jim Haynie, W5JBP, signed the formal Statement of Affiliation between DHS and ARRL during the ARRL 2003 National Convention June 21. Chief Operating Officer of the Emergency Preparedness and Response Directorate (FEMA) Ron Castleman represented Under Secretary for Emergency Preparedness and Response Michael D. Brown at the signing. Citizen Corps Liaison to the White House Liz DiGregorio called ham radio operators the "first of the first responders."
"You are there. You are part of that very, very first response when it happens locally," especially in the initial stages of an emergency or disaster, DiGregorio told the overflow audience at the signing ceremony. She urged amateurs to explore ways to expand their role in the community beyond being the last resort when other communication systems fail. "You need to show your community that you're engaged," she said. "They need to know as a community that ARRL is there."
Castleman said his agency really needs Amateur Radio's help. "Hams have a long and distinguished history of assisting and cooperating with FEMA," he said. That cooperation dates back to a 1984 Memorandum of Understanding between the League and FEMA. He said FEMA wants to continue to work with Amateur Radio operators as partners and expand hams' community safety role.
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Eat pork chops for Allah! | |
| | | | | | | | amungusPremium
join:2004-11-26
America | Re: Where was the internet? Nice post Interesting info. Good for them, thumbs way up to all involved who DO make a difference! | |
| | | | | | | | | | | Re: Where was the internet? Agreed! | |
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| | | | | | |  KA3SGM- -... ...- -Premium
join:2006-01-17
West Chester, PA
 ·Verizon FiOS
 ·Cricket Broadband
| I guess Radios and Guns DO MIX.... Hey, another NRA Life Member here, as well as a long time Ham Radio operator.
I keep my legally concealed ordinance firmly attached to my belt, right between the cell phone, and the 2m/70cm HT.
Its the Nokia, Glock, and Icom trilogy.
#1 to call for help.
#2 in case help takes to long to arrive, and I'm forced to fend for myself.
#3 for when #1 doesn't work, and #2 is running low on ammo.
This really cracks me up with all the Anti-Gun, Anti-Ham kooks around here.
Forget the Red, Blue, and Watercooler forums, we should request a Militia Group Forum on BBR, nothing seriously, but simply to piss off the Anti's. 
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"Lithium is no longer available on credit" | |
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·magicjack.com
| Re: Where was the internet? said by Transmaster:"You need to show your community that you're engaged," she said. "They need to know as a community that ARRL is there." I view that as an admission of the growing problems with amateur. I haven't questioned whether government agencies rely upon it, but that it's 1) shrinking and serving this purpose less and less. And 2), reducing requirements ("easier" and "more fun") to get more members who take it less seriously than members 50 years ago.
That quote above is nothing more than an admission of this problem. I don't blame FEMA or Homeland Security for essentially urging Amateur radio to be more serious and more engaged in this serious business. That's exactly what I'm saying too (and the logical outcome that if it doesn't happen, it doesn't serve the purpose it claims to, and that the spectrum should be reallocated so it can serve the expected purpose.
I think we're saying the same thing in this regard. It's just that amateur hobbyists don't want to hear it in those terms. They want to think that being urged to "show you're engaged" isn't a criticism, but a validation of their sense of self-importance. I don't see amateur hobbyists dealing with what is breaking down within their hobby. Instead, they're making it "easier and funner" to grow their ranks. And this leads to less engaged participants.
Mark | |
| | | | | | | | | | | Re: Where was the internet? i dont get ya thay save peoples lifes | |
| | | | | | | | | TransmasterDon't Blame Me I Voted For Bill and Opus
join:2001-06-20
Cheyenne, WY | Hamradio operators do not like to toot their own horns we prefer to work in the background, we do not have a hero complex we do our job in a professional manor. If others wish to give us credit for our efforts that is fine we are not above enjoying some recognition for our hard work.
I remember right here on DSL reports there was a person who was trying to get in touch with I think a sister who was on the west coast of Florida which had just been devastated by a hurricane. This sister happened to live in a area who's communications infrastructure was destroyed. I put this person in touch with SATERN, (Salvation Army Team Emergency Radio Network) »www.qso.com/satern411/ they have an online form to fill out for a health and welfare check. this message was passed on to a Hamradio operator in the area the relative was located and was able to confirm she was ok.
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Eat pork chops for Allah! | |
| | | | | | | | | | | There are several holes in your way of thinking on this whole matter and they all fall under you not looking beyond the "simple answer" in the way you see things. There are many other factors you don't even seem to want even care to consider. Probably because they would dissolve your argument.
First off you keep saying HAM is only around because the hobbyists claim they CAN save lives. The problem with this line of thinking is that you completely ignore that HAM operators DO save lives. Every time a disaster strikes an area and conventional communications are down the HAMs are there helping reestablish communication between the public and emergency response organizations.
There is no way the government can do this themselves. There is no speculation on this by saying, "if they allocate more funds for equipment and training" because that is a virtual impossibility. The whole reason HAM is so effective is that the operators are not within an established infrastructure. Do some research on mesh communications to see the benefits of having your sources spread out.
You keep harping on an "if nobody is using it then they should phase it out like public parks" kind of mentality. Another incredibly short sighted way of looking at it. Do you think public parks are there just so you can camp out and roast marshmallows on undeveloped land? You seem to forget national parks are also reserves for keeping certain animals from becoming extinct. Then there is also the ecological aspect of keeping a healthy amount of undeveloped green around (you probably won't accept that point anyway... too 'liberal'). Another thing to consider is how these large tracts of land help out the surrounding areas when it comes to various natural disasters like hurricanes, tornadoes, floods and other nasty things.
Your thinking is short sighted. HAMS are needed. National parks are needed. BPL is not compelling enough to take away a necessary resource. | |
| | | | | | | | | | | amigo_boy, your so ignorant. I'm sorry I had to say it. | |
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| | | | | | I didn't say ONE life, I said LIVES as in plural, as in potentially MANY lives! So there is no hyperbole. The radios currently used by emergency personnel are for daily use, and immediately get overwhelmed during any type of large scale emergency, not to mention lack of personnel. I may be going out on a limb here, but I suspect you also don't want to pay taxes to alleviate the situation, either (pay for more emergency responders, equipment, training, etc.) Also, do you have stats to back up your claim that licensees are dwindling? | |
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| |  n1zukBreak out the checkbookPremium
join:2001-10-24
Malta
kudos:2 | Uhh... The public agencies (as well as the private ones, such as the Red Cross) do have communications equipment (and dedicated allocated frequencies), and they also are active during emergencies.
Amateur radio operators don't just run in and save the day. They work in concert with the existing emergency service infrastructure.
What amateur radio contributes is two important resources:
-- The ability to deploy quickly where needed; and
-- A trained, experienced communications operator.
During Hurricanes, even the National Weather Service and other key emergency service buildings needed to be evacuated due to storm damage. Equipment was damaged and/or the location unusable. Amateur radio operators supplied the equipment and the expertise to put these needed communication systems back online.
The radio sitting in some police station or emergency shelter doesn't operate itself. It doesn't fix itself when it doesn't work. Most emergency personnel don't spend hours each week working on their communication skills. Amateur radio operators do this for free, and are willing to commit their time and their own expenses to help others.
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New to Forum Life? Click here and learn. | |
| | | | | said by amigo_boy:said by moonpuppy:And to think, some people here said HAM radio was dead and should be gone. I think the question is, and always has been, to what extent does it serve a useful purpose relative to the allocation of public airwaves? 60 people up and down the WA coast? Just give radio equipment to public agencies, operated on one area of government frequency. Same results. . Ham operators remind me of some gun owners who think they're going to protect us from usurpation. Get real. Your hobby just isn't that important. Mark You have just shown how clueless you are.
First off, the government has communications but those were quickly overwhelmed. You think more equipment is going to help? WRONG! They would need extra people to operate that equipment which costs more AND would take away from other duties.
Secondly, another argument of people like you would be how often does this happen. Dedicated government equipment would require testing and certification at least every year. More money that will have to come from somewhere. Willing to see your taxes go up to pay for it?
BTW, your access to internet porn is not that important either. | |
| | | amungusPremium
join:2004-11-26
America Reviews:
 ·AT&T DSL Service
| "Ham operators remind me of some gun owners who think they're going to protect us from usurpation. Get real. Your hobby just isn't that important."
You remind me of arrogance.
I'm not going to get into 2nd amendment talk, or what I think about any of that. I'll just say I think your perceptions aren't the same as mine.
Ham radio people have been around for ages. Long before we had internet everywhere for the common person.
I always find it interesting that these people, though loosely associated because of their interests, can come together in cases like this and be 1) more organized than some of the other efforts 2) help out because it's the right thing to do 3) don't whine 4) produce BETTER results than most "public agencies"
If you really think that these people's "hobby" is not important, that's an extremely arrogant thing to say in light of what they do for the needs of the many.
The "public agencies" have many options available with regards to communications... and sure, they'll have some more once the spectrum auction is finished up, but knocking these people for the good that they do is antithetical and a little sad to read. I'm disappointed that anyone can have a negative opinion of what these people are doing. | |
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·magicjack.com
| Re: Where was the internet? said by amungus:... knocking these people for the good that they do is antithetical and a little sad to read. I'm disappointed that anyone can have a negative opinion of what these people are doing. I didn't knock them for the good they do. I know gun enthusiasts who do good too. But, martial force is lodged with the government, notwithstanding the gun-zealot's belief that they're the modern-day "militia" (visions of Red Dawn).
It's simply inevitable that public resources will be reassigned, and "60 people up and down the coast" replaced by communications roles held by the National Guard (et al.).
Calling people names only shows the desperation of the amateur radio enthusiasts. They know their numbers are dwindling, both in terms of actual licensees and operating licensees. They have less claim to the "public good" argument. So, any example of a few members doing something good is paraded around for all it's worth. It still doesn't change the calculus: Fewer members than five decades ago, more sophisticated government agencies with more equipment than five years ago, etc. Enthusiasts don't want to deal with this.
If there were only *one* hobbyist they'd still claim it's worth the allocation of public resources.
Of course, not all amateur enthusiasts are like that. A neighbor up the street says the same thing I do. But, the more "activist" (true believers) are just opposed to any reasonable discussion on the topic. They're just trying to hold back any loss.
Mark | |
| | | | | | | Re: Where was the internet? said by amigo_boy:Calling people names only shows the desperation of the amateur radio enthusiasts. Hmmmmm.
said by amigo_boy:Ham operators remind me of some gun owners who think they're going to protect us from usurpation. Get real. Your hobby just isn't that important. said by amigo_boy:Activist AARL members don't represent amateur radio members generally, just as activist NRA members don't represent gun owners generally. They just think they do. You are a little extra dark today, pot. | |
| | | | | amungusPremium
join:2004-11-26
America Reviews:
·AT&T DSL Service
| "If there were only *one* hobbyist they'd still claim it's worth the allocation of public resources."
How many would it take to make a difference? I think that even *one* person does count for something. Bringing public resources into this debate is largely irrelevant and a little unreasonable...
"I didn't knock them for the good they do."
Yes, you did, that's why you're getting a bunch of people responding. If "Get real. Your hobby just isn't that important." isn't knocking something/someone, I'd be interested in knowing what you would consider a "knock." I suppose you could have said some nastier things, but I'm glad you didn't
"Calling people names only shows the desperation of the amateur radio enthusiasts. They know their numbers are dwindling, both in terms of actual licensees and operating licensees. They have less claim to the "public good" argument. So, any example of a few members doing something good is paraded around for all it's worth. It still doesn't change the calculus:......."
So, two wrongs make a right?
Your logic here is most confusing. It's borderline illogical, altogether, IMO. Calculus has absolutely nothing to do with this. Your use of the word is irrelevant. Your point is irrelevant. Your entire take on this is either for the benefit of observing reactionary commentary, or to introduce a biased misleading comparison to unrelated issues and tangential opinions and observations.
Either way, I don't care.
There is no reason at all to bash on these people for doing something good. It's also a terribly illogical point at which to debate "public good" based solely on a statistic which evidently has zero bearing on the results which these folks provide (time and time again I might add). | |
| | | | | | jacourPremium
join:2001-12-11
Matthews, NC Reviews:
 ·RoadRunner Cable
·SureWest Cable
·AT&T Southwest
| Re: Where was the internet? The point you miss, and this is an important one, is that it takes more than a radio in your pocket to deal with a disaster. Police and fire fighters want a light-weight radio that provides a clear communications channel when dealing with bad guys or flames. That almost always means a low powered, battery operated, FM hand-held, and police departments (wisely) use most of their budgets on buying such equipment. It is what they need for their job 99.9% of the time.
However like cell phones, those radios rely on infrastructure that is frequently destroyed in disasters, and UHF frequencies are not suited to long distance communications. When the south tower of the WTC came down on 9/11, the repeaters that covered Manhattan came down too (and the collapse of the building buried the mobile repeater the fire department had moved onto the site). When the space shuttle broke up over large parts of Texas, local police radios were not sufficient to cover the area. Ditto for large scale storms like Hurricane Katrina.
When all else fails, a basic ham rig with a makeshift antenna can be made to work, and we practice those skills every year on Field Day. Why? Because those skills, unfortunately, come in handy and we are only too happy to help when needed. | |
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| |  N3OGHYo Soy Col. "Bat" GuanoPremium
join:2003-11-11
Philly burbs
kudos:1 | said by amigo_boy:said by moonpuppy:And to think, some people here said HAM radio was dead and should be gone. I think the question is, and always has been, to what extent does it serve a useful purpose relative to the allocation of public airwaves? 60 people up and down the WA coast? Just give radio equipment to public agencies, operated on one area of government frequency. Same results. . Ham operators remind me of some gun owners who think they're going to protect us from usurpation. Get real. Your hobby just isn't that important. Mark As was said earlier, those frequencies are all ready in use by first responders in the field. One of the big functions the Hams served in this emergency was the co ordination of patient information and supplies with hospitals in the disaster area.
So instead of having to station a police officer with a radio at every hospital, the hams come out. They bring their own equipment (including mobile, hand held, and repeaters, some of which can cost hundreds, if not thousands of dollars) they work for free (no OT to pay to a government worker) and they're trained, experienced communicators. They can be called upon with a moment's notice, and their communications backbone is one of the most redundant, and resilient in the country.
But na, you're right. Let's push 'em aside so someone can watch a Britney Spears video on their cell phone, or Torrent the latest episode of Spongebob to their laptop at high speed.
Oh, and for the record, I happen to be;
1: One of those "gun nuts" that believes the best protection from a tyrannical government is an armed citizenry.
2: A ham radio operator, who has worked to assist the community in times of emergency.
3: A paid first responder who understands how fragile the public service infrastructure is in this country.
So, instead of turning this all over to "the government" and training, paying and equipping 1000's of people nation wide, probably at the cost of millions, if not billions, the hams do it for FREE.
If I didn't know any better, I would think you just stepped out of the politics and government class I took way back in my college years. You sound just like the kids that would sit next to me in those heady days and believe everything the professor told them....
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Petty people are disproportionably corrupted by petty power… | |
| | | |  en102Canadian, eh?
join:2001-01-26
Valencia, CA | Re: Where was the internet? Yeah, typical big corp is more concerned over a penny or 2 for a text/sms or ringtone download or p0rn over the web than actually having any citizen take any control and not for pure profit.
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Canada = Hollywood North | |
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| | | | | | | So...by your logic, a passing trucker who finds you bleeding in a ditch shouldn't radio on his CB for help. After all, his "hobby" just isn't that important.
Furthermore, how do you stretch your paper thin logic from ham operators to gun owners? Communication is to firearms as kites are to cell phones? | |
| | | |  TzaleProud Libertarian ConservativePremium
join:2004-01-06
NYC Metro | Re: Where was the internet? said by satellite68:So...by your logic, a passing trucker who finds you bleeding in a ditch shouldn't radio on his CB for help. After all, his "hobby" just isn't that important. Furthermore, how do you stretch your paper thin logic from ham operators to gun owners? Communication is to firearms as kites are to cell phones? I've heard of an interesting case where an Amateur Radio operator in Alaska were able to call for help during an accident in the wilderness.. They got someone in Washington state to relay the message to the emergency officials to locate the accident victims. Without AR, they would have certainly died due to it being the wilderness and there being no cell network!
Actually, in Alaska, they have certain frequencies reserved for emergency use on the Amateur bands since it is so rural and the only means to communicate is usually radio.
-Tzale | |
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| | | | "Public airwaves"... they wouldn't be very public if the public didn't get to use any of them, would they? Just like we use some public land for parks for people to enjoy, we give have some public airwaves reserved for public enjoyment. It would be as ridiculous to give that up for exclusive public agency use as it would to give up the section of airwaves reserved for public use. Idiot. | |
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See 9 replies to this post | |
| | wtansillNcc1701
join:2000-10-10
Falls Church, VA | said by amigo_boy:said by moonpuppy:And to think, some people here said HAM radio was dead and should be gone. I think the question is, and always has been, to what extent does it serve a useful purpose relative to the allocation of public airwaves? 60 people up and down the WA coast? Just give radio equipment to public agencies, operated on one area of government frequency. Same results. . Ham operators remind me of some gun owners who think they're going to protect us from usurpation. Get real. Your hobby just isn't that important. Mark So you don't have life insurance, medical coverage, auto insurance and so forth, because, relative to the recurring monthly cost, it's just not that important?
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| | |  JamesonPremium
join:2004-05-28
Fallbrook, CA
kudos:1 | said by amigo_boy:said by moonpuppy:And to think, some people here said HAM radio was dead and should be gone. I think the question is, and always has been, to what extent does it serve a useful purpose relative to the allocation of public airwaves? 60 people up and down the WA coast? Just give radio equipment to public agencies, operated on one area of government frequency. Same results. . Ham operators remind me of some gun owners who think they're going to protect us from usurpation. Get real. Your hobby just isn't that important. Mark When we had the wildfires here and everyone was evacuated from here, the only thing we could trust was my radio. When we watched the news they were either hours/days behind in the information or totally wrong about what they were putting out. The reason being was that the Net ops center was in the fire station. The information they put out was very very accurate and it was there all day and all night. | |
| | | JamesonPremium
join:2004-05-28
Fallbrook, CA
kudos:1 | You my friend thumbs down. | |
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| said by amigo_boy:said by moonpuppy:And to think, some people here said HAM radio was dead and should be gone. I think the question is, and always has been, to what extent does it serve a useful purpose relative to the allocation of public airwaves? 60 people up and down the WA coast? Just give radio equipment to public agencies, operated on one area of government frequency. Same results. . Ham operators remind me of some gun owners who think they're going to protect us from usurpation. Get real. Your hobby just isn't that important. Mark Spoken like someone who doesn't know, and likes the sound of his own voice!
I AM a HAM, and your point is non-existant!
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| | |  DavidNow accepting new patientsPremium,VIP
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1 edit | said by amigo_boy:said by moonpuppy:And to think, some people here said HAM radio was dead and should be gone. I think the question is, and always has been, to what extent does it serve a useful purpose relative to the allocation of public airwaves? 60 people up and down the WA coast? Just give radio equipment to public agencies, operated on one area of government frequency. Same results. . Ham operators remind me of some gun owners who think they're going to protect us from usurpation. Get real. Your hobby just isn't that important. Mark Wow!!!! Just.... WOW!!!!!!
To think people on this site criticize AT&T for being arrogant minded. Next time I think my best defense to the critics of us and at&t will be your post!
So... Thank You!
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| | | N3EVL
join:2004-12-13
Shrewsbury, MA | I find it both sad and mind boggling that someone is so intent in trashing the fine efforts of unpaid volunteers who helped out in an emergency situation and provided much needed assistance. To use this report as a mechanism to attack Amateur Radio and try and establish supposed flaws in the allocation of its RF spectrum is beyond credence.
This person should really do some homework before nonchalantly making the determination that ham radio has had its day. It is obvious to me that he has zero understanding of the overall facets of the service and the role it plays in emergency communications and other aspects relating to public self-education and use of state of the art technology on which our society is increasingly based. Indeed it is apparent to me that his comments are so off base that while I find them disappointing, they are easily dismissed. | |
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| | Ham radio operators seem to always be there to help in emerg It seems that Ham radio operators are always there to help out in disaster situations. We need more people in the world who are willing to help out in situations of dire need.
Without them, in many disasters, there would be no quickly available means of long distance emergency communications.
I'm not a Ham operator BTW, but I've been extremely impressed over the years as I've read how they've helped out over and over again.
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| | | Take that BPL underwriters! HAM is critical. Let the BPL folks eat sh-t. | |
| | | | Re: Take that BPL underwriters! theres alot of BPL trolls here i dont get them guys | |
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TzaleProud Libertarian ConservativePremium
join:2004-01-06
NYC Metro
1 edit |  Amateur Radio
Amateur Radio is a great service, and it is now easier than ever to get licensed and start having fun!
If you can dream it up, you can do it with Amateur Radio!
I check into several emergency preparedness nets per day and I'm a net control for several New Jersey NTS nets. I also run a packet radio station and participate in SKYWARN.
-Tzale
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TransmasterDon't Blame Me I Voted For Bill and Opus
join:2001-06-20
Cheyenne, WY | Cost of replacement I wish I could find the figures. I think it was FEMA who did a study on what it would cost to replace Amateur radio operators during an emergency. As I recall the number was upward of a billion dollars just to replace the infrastructure, and it would cost 100 or so millions a year to pay the staff, and maintain the system.
During the 1950's there was a program run by the Civil Defense Agency, CDA in which amateur Radio operator signed up with The CDA and where then able to purchase CDA designated radio equipment for which a percentage of the cost was paid for by the CDA. Ham radio operators in this system had designated frequencies out side of the ham band to setup net's on, much like Military Affiliate Radio Service (MARS) has today. The point of this is it would be cheaper for the Government to subsidize the purchase of radio equipment then it would to replace ham radio operators.
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| Re: Cost of replacement said by Transmaster:During the 1950's there was a program run by the Civil Defense Agency, CDA in which amateur Radio operator signed up with The CDA That might be a useful way to treat amateur radio. Civilian volunteers who are coordinated through a government agency. Requirements to participate (one weekend a month?). Reduce the allocated bandwidth to that needed for the stated purpose.
No more "easier and more fun!" (as it degrades into a new CB radio) while at the same time relying on the old hackneyed "it serves a public good, so leave us alone!" If it's intended to serve a public good, institutionalize it and put an end to the "easier and more fun" mantra designed to bring more people in (and shore up the defense against calls to reduce spectrum). You guys can't have it both ways.
Mark | |
| | | amungusPremium
join:2004-11-26
America | Re: Cost of replacement "If it's intended to serve a public good, institutionalize it"
Oh, so that's it. That explains everything. | |
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kc8jwt
join:2005-10-27
Syracuse, OH | The bottom line.... I have read the information on here about ham radio. Some of the comments by some people strike me as mis-informed, or they just don't want informed.
I became a Amateur Operator in 1998. In 1999 I joined the local RACES organization. RACES, for those who are not hams, stands for Radio Amateur Civil Emergency Service. We worked as part of the local EMA organization and worked quite a few disasters in our area.
One of the services that we did was damage assessment. The EMA director would send us out to storm damaged homes and evaluate them for possible state and federal assistance for their damaged property. Another time we had a major ice storm and it knocked power out in the area on average for a week, in some places it was a month before people regained power.
One of the people here that posted talked about the National Guard. Talk to a National Guard unit that is deployed to something like this and ask them how their radios worked. Before I became a ham, we had a "Mothers Day" flood that seriously destroyed bridges and culverts on back roads. The governor deployed the National Guard. They found out real quick that their radios didn't work very well for unit to unit communications and that they couldn't talk with the CO setup at the EMA office. Very quickly the National Guard requested that hams ride with their units going out into the field.
One of the reasons why SOME public safety organizations like to use hams are because the resources that they can bring to bear on the situation very quickly. If you look at any commercial radio, some of them have pre-programed channels that the officer, EMT, Paramedic, or firefighter can use. They are bound by the agency's license to use ONLY those frequencies. So you can imagine if something major happens, the frequency can quickly become unusable. That is where ham radio comes in. It can take the PRIORITY, HEALTH AND WELFARE, and URGENT traffic to free up the public safety frequencies for emergency traffic. Simply saying, "We have FRS radios" doesn't hold water to me. They are short range devices, limited on power. I just hope when you decide to use the radio to call for help, someone thinks to have theirs on and monitoring. An FRS radio has it's place and time, but major disasters are asking for trouble.
And as some one pointed out, about the ARRL being the NRA for hams, that is probably true. But there are lots of hams that do not belong to the ARRL because of their choices of "battles" to fight. Just because some one is a ham doesn't mean they belong the the ARRL. I don't. I used to, but I chose to not renew my membership because I felt that my voice was not being heard by the leadership.
Granted, since 9/11 local, state, and federal governments have invested heavily in their communication infrastructure. I live in Ohio and the state was already looking at a statewide radio system before 9/11 because of a communication breakdown during the Shadyside flood in 1990 and a prison riot in 1993 in Lucasville. The sad thing is though the system works like a cell phone. If an agency uses the radio, the state charges the agency for the time used on the system. Now that system is in operation by the state and it seems to work quite well. But I feel that hams still have a place in emergency response and assisting these agencies with communication if their assistance is asked for.
I really think the problem is that the normal everyday person doesn't realize that you are taking your time to help , and you don't get paid a dime for what you did. My opinion is that my pay is the satisfaction that I helped my fellow neighbors and gave back to the community in a time of need.
Whether it is a waste of time, money, or space, these people are doing it because they want to. Some people don't sit around and complain about the situation or criticize who did what.
If we institutionalize something, do we get what we want? Look at FEMA during Katrina. That worked out for everyone did it. | |
| kd6caeP2p Shouldn't Be A Crime
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Palmdale, CA Reviews:
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| public service radios too complex! I've been a ham radio operator since October 1991, when I was just 11 years old. Ham radio in one way or another helped peak my interest in other areas, such as collecting weather data and getting more interested in telecommunications and the internet.
Without a question, there are less in the way of younger amateur operators now, so being able to show them that ham radio can be as fun as the internet, I think is key.
That being said, I wonder why it is that public safety communications like police and fire insist on making their communications more complicated than necessary by having trunking radio systems and the like. One of the reasons hams work when even local police radios don't is, that hams use radio without having to rely on trunked radio systems. Why can't police and fire and even other businesses that in some cases use Cell Phones just use radio the way us hams have always done it, and the way these same agencies use to do it?
It makes no sense to me | |
| | | BPL is not goin to help people who save lifes we dont need bpl and this is why | |
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Transmaster
| Amazing, simply amazing.... Amigoboy,
Amateur Radio is the hobby, Emergency communications is the commitment.
Here in the Northwest, Washington State recently experienced quite a weather event
with parts of Interstate 5 still flooded along with most of Grays Harbor and Lewis
Counties without regular telephone service.
Cell service is spotty at best.
Down in Oregon, they also have their problems with flooding and wind damage.
You say the ham frequencies should be reduced and allocated to other services, like what?
More gossip TV where people can't live without knowing where Britney last flashed her crotch?
There are still many people in Aberdeen and Hoquiam who don't have power.
Some roads are still filled with debris, so delivery trucks with food, fuel and essential
supplies can't get through.
In addition to power and phone systems being down, what happens when a person's cellphone
dies or service is not available?
What happens when the batteries in your portable radio go dead?
So you start your car, listen to the radio, soon after as time goes by, that car runs out
of gas, you can't get more because the fuel trucks can't get in, and finally the battery dies.
Now you have no phone, no portable radio batteries, your car battery is dead and you have no
way to find out what's going on.
What happens when police/fire/medical services who are on a trunked radio system
(computer controlled of course) loses that trunked system because the computer no longer
can allocate talkgroups to their respective agencies because it's UPS died?
Sure, they'll all switch to simplex mode but the system would be overloaded as they were
during the Nisqually earthquake a few years ago.
Ham radio isn't going to (insert Mighty Mouse theme here) save the day, but ham operators
take the time to get trained to provide communications not only for police, fire, and
medical personnel, but they also pass health and welfare traffic, pass along status reports
to served agencies like public utilities, FEMA and other government personnel that require it.
People seem to think that a disaster happens, and the government snaps its fingers and wham,
everything is OK. Sorry, but look at events like Katrina and 9/11.
Hams used their own equipment, spent their own money, and even took time off from work to travel
cross country to offer help.
The government and professional services will get there eventually, but in any disaster, for
the first few days, you're on your own, and this has been said by government officials.
It takes time to organize a response to a disaster.
Getting back to the Northwest storm....
I've personally called people and said hello, I'm a ham operator and I have a message from your
relative in Aberdeen, they say they're OK and not to worry.
Hams are also helping at shelters, passing out food, helping to clear roads and storm drains.
There's a net on 3.970 MHZ every day, 365 days a year that passes traffic via the NTS
(National Traffic System) where message travel all over the country.
Not only am I involved with Amateur Radio, I'm also a part of the search & rescue unit of
King County. They look for lost hikers, render assistance to those who've been injured while
enjoying the many parks and trails here in Washington.
No, I'm not Superman, I'm not going to save the day, and I don't sit on my ass all day on
the radio, and neither does any other ham operator I know.
I do know that I have taken time out of my life to get specific emergency communications and
training (including first aid and cpr) so that in times of disaster or need, I can help.
Tell you what Amigoboy, I'll give up ham radio when you give up television, broadcast radio
and the internet.
--Deeply Shrouded & Quiet
--KD7YVV, Kirkland, WA | |
| | | | Re: Amazing, simply amazing.... Don't let the idiots get us down, We are over 600,000 strong and we have serve what the Ham Radio charter provides and we do it each and every day. Even though someone may think ham radio does not serve a purpose, that day when you are stuck, no cell phone, water up to your ears or snow over your head, if not another Ham, I will still be there to help you out. That's because I know the true sprit and purpose of what Ham Radio is. So go ahead and be a nay sayer, What I will tell you is what will you say to me when I radio for help for you! KB2CHY and proud of it. Want to know more, »www.qrz.com. | |
| | | | Great Reply... There are more of this here than anyone even imagines.
73,
WB4YYE (Since 1972) | |
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| | I know im going to get flamed ... But I really don't care at this point. I think that Amigoboy made some pretty good comments, but you HAM guys all got your panties in a twist the first second you saw anything that might be negative.
I think he made some good points. Flame on, flame on. | |
| | TransmasterDon't Blame Me I Voted For Bill and Opus
join:2001-06-20
Cheyenne, WY | Re: I know im going to get flamed ... oooh, panties........sensuous
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| | | | Yeah, it's interesting how anybody who has any kind of criticism (constructive or not) is automatically anti-this and anti-that... in amigo_boy's case, he's automatically a BPL troll.
Why can't people just realize THERE IS ALWAYS ROOM FOR IMPROVEMENT and you shouldn't defend things as being perfect, infallible, and "it ain't broke don't fix it".
HAMs provide a valuable service, let's keep on improving it, making the technology more efficient, reliable, and functional, and making it more accessible, well-known, and organized so the public will care about it and know how to make use of it (directly or through licensed operators in their area). If the public can't get use out of it except in the most extreme disasters (when it's still a behind-the-scenes piece of the action), they won't care about it, and if they don't care about it, they won't care if [part or all of] the spectrum gets handed to private industry. | |
| | N3OGHYo Soy Col. "Bat" GuanoPremium
join:2003-11-11
Philly burbs
kudos:1 | Don't tell anyone, but panties make my bum look a bit nicer..
If Amigoboy had some really good comments, then perhaps you should offer him a bit more back up than a quick parting shot.
Point out his valid points, and support them with research.
I suggest the first game on the list.
Go straight through "three legged cat"!
Oh, and panties don't chafe as much. Great for the summer heat!
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Petty people are disproportionably corrupted by petty power… | |
| | | | said by mAlfunkti0n:But I really don't care at this point. I think that Amigoboy made some pretty good comments, but you HAM guys all got your panties in a twist the first second you saw anything that might be negative. I think he made some good points. Flame on, flame on. Malfunkti0n, oh really? Tell you what. Let's get rid of
television since all there is is crap on there anyway.
That would free up a hell of a lot of spectrum.
Television hasn't changed in 50+ years. It still uses
an analog signal, 525 lines of resolution and a 6 mhz wide
signal.
Ham radio operators have invented new ways to transmit
information, PSK31 for instance, 31 hz wide.
How's that for spectrum efficiency?
Just because something doesn't appear to be used, doesn't
mean it should be gotten rid of.
There are frequencies that appear empty all the time, yet
when a disaster happens, or the President comes to town,
they are put to use. That's what I had issue with.
"Oh they're not being used so just get rid of them."
--Deeply Shrouded & Quiet
--KD7YVV, Kirkland, WA | |
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| | Health & Welfare I don't think a lot of people outside of the ham/emcomms community know what we mean when we say "Health and Welfare" traffic. This is where amateur radio touches people's lives. Yes, we're on scene communicating for first responders and the like, but the truth is that that's happening less and less these days. What does happen is this- We're out there working with nonprofit agencies, like the Red Cross and Salvation Army, keeping their shelters open, making sure their supplies go where they're supposed to, getting damage reports back from their volunteers, etc. I worked with the American Red Cross in the Esperanza fire here in Southern California, and that's what I did- shelter communications. Food, water, bedding, toilet paper, medical supplies, etc. were being distributed to three area shelters, and they were handling this operation over ham radio. When the fire was out, they sent volunteers up the mountain with APRS transponders and amateur radios. We used our equipment to log GPS coordinates and damage reports, and then send that information back to the Red Cross people. And we passed health & welfare information- "Is my son/daughter/mother/father/brother/sister okay?" It made me proud to pass along those kinds of messages.
The Red Cross relies HEAVILY on amateur operators in disaster situations. So if you don't think the Red Cross plays a critical role in disaster response, then sure, bash the hams.
73 DE AE6YD, Riverside County RACES | |
| TransmasterDon't Blame Me I Voted For Bill and Opus
join:2001-06-20
Cheyenne, WY | The Emergency Managment Institute correspondence courses Here is something all of you might be interested in, especially all of you Hams out there. These are correspondence courses from FEMA. These are the courses personal who work in emergency services take. You can even get college credit for them. These courses will give you a real understanding of how emergency services work. It will give you a real appreciation of just what it takes to work in this area from all levels. With this course work under your belt the next time there is a Hurricane Katrina you will know just how much bull sh*t the media is trying to feed you.
Last but not the least these courses are free.
Go here:
»training.fema.gov/IS/crslist.asp
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Eat pork chops for Allah! | |
| | N3OGHYo Soy Col. "Bat" GuanoPremium
join:2003-11-11
Philly burbs
kudos:1 | Re: The Emergency Managment Institute correspondence courses Dude,
I had to take the classroom version of that NIMS training last year as part of my yearly training updates.
Take dry white toast. Paint it. Watch that paint dry.
Then take and plant grass on your painted toast. In December. Then sit and watch it grow.
That whole process is more interesting than sitting in that training. I SO wish they would have let me do it on line.
But, they do send you a nice certificate when you finish it...
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Petty people are disproportionably corrupted by petty power… | |
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1 edit | great job hams Yea i am a ham as well as a NRA member.
If people on the internet needed a license to operate like i do for my guns and station we would not have tools like amigo_boy around.
Step up...say thank you...and go along with your life. | |
| | | | Re: great job hams They internet doesnt work that way.
Anyone can post from a internet cafe, wireless, cell phone, etc. If you require a US license and someone wants to post anonymously they can use a proxy in Iran if they want to.
US laws do not apply in other countries, with the internet, enforcing US laws is almost impossible. | |
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| | Power outages When the power fails you dont have to worry about interference from BPL (Broadband over powerlines) LOL
I'm all for BPL (Broadband over powerlines). It will bring broadband to the masses. Start deploying it NOW, work on the interference issues as you go. Technology will improve. | |
| | N3EVL
join:2004-12-13
Shrewsbury, MA | Re: Power outages If you'd done _any_ research at all before making this silly post you'd know that that argument has been discounted. Please make the effort and do you homework if you want your posts to be taken seriously. | |
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