How Fairpoint Plans To Pay For Verizon DealNobody will get a raise for seven years? ( old news - 08:46AM Friday Nov 16 2007) tags: dsl · coverage · business · consumers · Verizon Online DSL · Fairpoint CommunicationsFairpoint Communications is working hard to get a deal passed that would give them ownership of Verizon's Maine, Vermont and New Hampshire DSL and landline networks. Verizon believes these largely rural states are not profitable, and has engineered a deal to offload them that uses fancy financial footwork to obliterate $1.7 billion in telco debt, while giving them a $600 million tax writeoff. Fairpoint's half of the deal is far less sexy. Fairpoint has been promising regulators and customers the earth, sea and sky. Despite being financially limited, they insist that customers will see faster speeds, greater deployment, improved service and no change in union contracts. Unfortunately for Fairpoint, nobody believes them. Really, how can a small operator afford all the promises? The Phoenix says they can't -- and suggests that regulatory filings indicate the company will try to pay for promised expansion -- in part -- by not doling out raises to the company's 3,000 employees for seven years. They also won't be able to spend a dime on infrastructure outside of the promised hardware needed to meet regulatory benchmarks.
Related:- Unions Take Aim At Verizon Fairpoint Tax Writeoff
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- Stuck In Broadband No Man's Land
- Fairpoint's Ultra-Secret Improvement Plan
- AT&T Announces U-Verse Enhancements
- Will Regulators Repeat Fairpoint Mistakes With Frontier?
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Jason Levine
Premium
join:2001-07-13
Albany, NY
| High turnover rate A company that doesn't plan raises (even cost of living increases) for its employees is going to find itself with a very high turnover rate. And that means that customer service will likely stink and they will be getting bottom of the barrel talent.
I know I wouldn't remain in my job if they told me that my salary wouldn't change for 7 years. (Unless the salary was beyond incredible to begin with.) | |
|  | AquaBlaze
Premium
join:2004-02-02
Encino, CA
| Re: High turnover rate No kidding. Where's the motivation to do a good job, if you're still going to be getting the same wage for 7 years?
Personally, I'd give any job like that a just-enough-to-not-get-fired effort, while using my avaliable time to look for a different line of work. | |
| | 
morbo
Complete Your Transaction
join:2002-01-22
00000
clubs:
 ·Charter Pipeline
 ·AT&T Southwest
| considering you will lose out 3% or more every year due to inflation, it is equivalent to getting a serious pay cut over seven years. For example, with a starting salary of $50,000 a year, watch what happens to your buying power from year to year (in constant dollars):
year 1: 50,000
year 2: 48,500
year 3: 47,045
year 4: 45,634
year 5: 44,265
year 6: 42,937
year 7: 41,649
No raise in 7 years is like a $8,351 pay cut IF inflation stays at 3% which is not likely. In the next 2-5 years, inflation will jump higher. My guess is that with the dollar crashing and the economy sinking into the toilet, inflation will spike from 5% to 9%. | |
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Jason Levine
Premium
join:2001-07-13
Albany, NY
| Re: High turnover rate Good point.
Oh and thanks for the depressing inflation numbers.  My usual raise is 3% so I'm barely keeping up with cost of living increases now. It looks like I'm going to be effectively taking annual pay cuts in the future.  | |
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morbo
Complete Your Transaction
join:2002-01-22
00000
clubs: | Re: High turnover rate i used 3% as an average. not sure of the actual numbers. | |
| | | mglunt
join:2001-09-10
Fredericksburg, VA
 ·Verizon FIOS
1 edit | Hmm. Where might your evidence be of the economy tanking?
Want some facts?
Since 1997, the avg hourly earnings dropped in only 2 of the 118 months.
Unemployment is just 4.7%, and has not been at 5.0 since Nov 05.
The economy has added jobs every month since Sept 03 - a total of 8.6 Million.
Maybe you should look at facts instead of what MSNBC tells you to think. »www.bls.gov/ | |
| | | | AquaBlaze
Premium
join:2004-02-02
Encino, CA
| Re: High turnover rate said by mglunt  :Hmm. Where might your evidence be of the economy tanking? I dunno about media outlets...but I take it as a bad sign when Canadians are now laughing at our money.
Seems the only "cheap" place US citizens can go tour around is Mexico. Ick. | |
| | | | | | | | | | | Ahrenl
join:2004-10-26
North Andover, MA
·Verizon FIOS
| Re: High turnover rate Actually it would be weaker.. the complaint is that China depresses the value of their currency, making ours artificially strong.
The value of the dollar is declines because the Fed continues to cut rates to sacrifice the future for the present. You could cut the rates to 0% and it's not going to save people with subprime rate resets. Regardless, until the currency markets think that the Fed is considering raising rates the value of the dollar will continue to decline. | |
| | | | | | | mglunt
join:2001-09-10
Fredericksburg, VA | Re: High turnover rate
The Fed just now cut rates twice in the last couple months after how many years of increases? | |
| | | | | | | | Ahrenl
join:2004-10-26
North Andover, MA | Re: High turnover rate What's your point? | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Ahrenl
join:2004-10-26
North Andover, MA
·Verizon FIOS
| Re: High turnover rate I'm afraid you're incorrect. The Yaun is worth less than the Dollar, they have been depressing the value, previously by pegging it to the dollar, and more recently by using a black box floating method, that is only slightly not pegged to the dollar. It is still appreciating more slowly than all other currencies compared to the dollar.
Congress had been threatening to enact large tarriffs on all Chinese imports if they didn't allow their currency to appreciate, this would offset how inexpensive Chinese goods are because their currency is so weak. | |
| | | | rahvin112
join:2002-05-24
Sandy, UT
| Statistics are great aren't they? My favorite saying is: There are liars, damned liars and statisticians.
For instance, lets take a look at your first claim.
said by mglunt :Since 1997, the avg hourly earnings dropped in only 2 of the 118 months. What's significant about this claim is what is said and not said. The first, issue is that hourly earnings actually dropped during 2 months. This is the first decline in hourly income since the great depression. Significant? I would say so. Second, what they don't say is that hourly wages haven't increased since 1997. The key to making bad information seem good is to talk about something else and try to spin it positive, like your statement. The fact is hourly wages have been stagnant for a close to a decade and dropped during two months for the first time since the great depression.
said by mglunt :Unemployment is just 4.7%, and has not been at 5.0 since Nov 05. Yep, unemployment is low, no question about that. Unemployment isn't much of an indicator until it's too late though. Although what you don't say is that unemployment has creeped upward the last few months, something that could indicate a trend.
said by mglunt :The economy has added jobs every month since Sept 03 - a total of 8.6 Million. What that doesn't say is that the number of jobs added was well below historical averages and expectations. Couple this with the vast majority (80%) of those jobs being below poverty level wages and in the service sector. So you got your 8.6million jobs and 8 million of them were at fast food joints for less than $10 a hour. Hardly anything to cheer about.
But the main point of the original poster is that the decline in the dollar is a serious threat to our economy if it continues. The dollar has historically been used as a reserve currency. What that means is that people put their money into dollars for stability. Being a reserve currency benefits the USA because all those foreign funds come into our economy and are used by American companies to create jobs, fund growth and even create new companies. If foreigners move their reserves into for example the Euro it would damage the American economy immensely. Not only that but pulling their money out of dollars would drop the dollar even more, which in turn will cause more people to bail. A spiral that eventually results in the collapse of the dollar as a world currency and the inability of the USA to sell bonds resulting in a near shutdown of government because we deficit spend. Not only that but we would be unable to purchase foreign products, and with our own manufacturing sector gone and no funds to restart it we would probably be looking at something similar to the great depression.
Is all that going to happen, probably not, for if the American economy goes down so does the world. But the sub-prime fiasco that the market is dealing with right now is only exacerbating the problem that Bush and the republicans created with their tax cut and spend policies. If things don't change significantly with the next president the above scenario may come to pass. I know a number of people that have moved their personal financial assets to foreign countries/currencies, and I've personally moved a percentage of my own. | |
| | | | | Ahrenl
join:2004-10-26
North Andover, MA
·Verizon FIOS
| Re: High turnover rate The subprime "fiasco" has nothing to do with the government, except maybe when the fed cut rates too low which spurred "irrational excuberance" in the housing market casuing speculation and excessive risk taking. Since that was done by Greenspan, who was appointed by Reagan, maybe you should blame him instead.
As for the dollar losing its reserve status, it's not even possible right now. There just aren't enough assets/debt outside of the US for the money to go to. | |
| | | | | mglunt
join:2001-09-10
Fredericksburg, VA
·Verizon FIOS
| You say that "hourly wages haven't increased since 1997." I am sure you meant min wage, but you seem to be talking about both. If you know someone who began working a min wage job in 1997, and is still working the same job, and still making min wage, I'd like to see that. People might start out at min wage, but they get raises, etc.
Hourly income dropped 2 times in 2003 by a whole .01%. I don't call that significant up against the 116 times it has gone up in 10 yrs. »data.bls.gov/PDQ/servlet/SurveyO···net_1mth
Since 1970, the unemployment rate for the year has been lower than 4.7 a whole 4 times. Forgive me if I don't push the panic button since the rate went from 4.6 in Jul/Aug to 4.7 in Sept/Oct. It might simply indicate an increase in people looking for jobs for the holidays etc. | |
| | | | | mglunt
join:2001-09-10
Fredericksburg, VA |
Where might you have proof of your statement that 80% of the new jobs added since Sept 03 are below the poverty line? | |
| | | | | smokythebear
join:2004-07-13
30881
clubs:
| Obviously I hope this situation does not happen, but it worries me alot. One thing that you didn't mention about the spending policy of the bush administration is that China is the majority buyer of US bonds. This should bother everyone...
Also with the whole social security problem and the possibility of crowding out things need to change | |
| | KraziJoe
join:2006-09-08
Alexandria, VA | In Maine, some would just love to have the job and will worry about the raise later. Maine is economically depressed and any incoming work would be appreciated. Though how much of that would be new after all the Verizon firings is up for debate. | |
| | | droobie
Premium
join:2007-10-09
Bangor, ME
·Great Works Internet
| Re: High turnover rate In the Bangor market specifically, there is a shortage of people more than a shortage of jobs. We're not just talking about in retail and food service (though there's a ton of those, which I don't necessarily consider good job growth) but there's a shortage in new construction across the region.
There are economically depressed places in Maine, don't get me wrong, but I do think it is getting better, not worse. At this rate we might actually see a Jetblue or a Southwest fly into here and make use of the disappointment that is the local International airport.
I still wish every day for a Google Data Center...  | |
| | hottboiinnc
ME
join:2003-10-15
Toledo, OH
·buckeye cable
| What's a payr aise? The company i work for (Lowe's Companies) does not believe in cost of living raises. They give them to you when they decide to when they feel like it as long as you're well above the min. wage for state and federal other wise they're out of the clear and you don't get the raise.
No cost of living at Lowe's Retail. Many people at my store have been there since our's opened (11 years) and still make under $9 an hour and havent seen a payr aise in years. If you're lucky you may get a 5cent raise but nothing real big.
Welcome to the word of Corp. America. | |
| | 
NY Tel
Always 180 Degrees Out-of-Phase
Premium
join:2004-04-09
Smithtown, NY
 ·VOIPo
| said by Jason Levine :A company that doesn't plan raises (even cost of living increases) for its employees is going to find itself with a very high turnover rate. And that means that customer service will likely stink and they will be getting bottom of the barrel talent. I know I wouldn't remain in my job if they told me that my salary wouldn't change for 7 years. (Unless the salary was beyond incredible to begin with.) Yup, agreed. I'm resigning immediately and I don't even work for them. This sounds like an act of sheer, utter desperado tactics. | |
| axus
join:2001-06-18
Washington, DC | wow I'm really glad I don't live in that area. | |
| | 
gaforces
United We Stand, Divided We Fall
join:2002-04-07
Santa Cruz, CA
·Cruzio Internet
| Re: wow They must have some reason to think they can make the areas profitable that the phoenix doesnt know or account for.
Perhaps they havent accounted for tourists?
Or that they can upgrade x amounts of dial-up to dsl or fibre.
Or take into account growth of the areas.
Or that Fairpoint has much lower operating costs.
They dont know what kind of deals fairpoint has made with potential advertisers or partners.
10 years from now those areas could be booming. Take a loss now and profit in the future.
--
‘Do ye, quieting in your bosoms your strong hearts,
Who of many good things have had your fill even to surfeit,
With what is moderate nourish your mighty desire; for neither will
We yield, nor shall you have all else as you wish.’
Solon | |
| | | 
publius
@verizon.com
| Re: wow Gaforces,
A sane person would try to make sense of this and ask the very questions you have, but the truth is simple: Fairpoint is a grubby, money sucking company.
To touch upon each of your points.
Tourists? What in gods good name would tourists have to do with Fairpoint making any money?
Upgrades? They will have dial up customers cross over to DSL, that's a no-brainer, but they don't have any "fiber" technologies at all.
Growth? Every area has growth, but in order for them to make a profit Fort Kent would have to become a city overnight.
Operation costs? You can only reduce the cost of operating a business by so much. Verizon has reduced operating costs by over 40% the past ten years. They've reduced it so much that simple repairs are becoming very expensive due to them ignoring problems. Fairpoint, being a smaller company, can certainly reduce some costs, but lets be realistic... it can only go so low.
Advertisers and partners? what difference does it make if your advertising copper technologies? Ask yourself what you would want as an consumer. Do you want over expensive, faulty DSL, or at least the promise of something better?
Ten years from now Maine is not going to be much more populated than it is... Again, Presque Isle would have to become a new northern metropolis for Fairpoint to make money.
For more information visit:
www.verizonvsfairpoint.com go to the discussion board and check out the new post in the general discussion area.. your mind will be changed. | |
| | | | viperlmw
Premium
join:2005-01-25
·Qwest.net
| Re: wow Someone please explain how being small means your costs are lower. I would argue the opposite, as economies of scale come into play. Eqpt., parts and supplies are cheaper if purchased in bulk or under a large contract. You don't have to have as much management for the same number of workers. You have more resources (fiscal, technical, etc.) available. Plus, each Independant telco has it's own senior management team making plenty of money. | |
| | | | | Sammer
join:2005-12-22
Pittsburgh, PA | Re: wow The only way they can be lower is for labor costs (for both salaried and union employees) to be lower. | |
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gaforces
United We Stand, Divided We Fall
join:2002-04-07
Santa Cruz, CA
·Cruzio Internet
2 edits | Charge tourists 10$ a day for access, ADSL2+, VDSL, those states are not densly populated, plenty more room.
Advertisers and partners may be offering them wads of cash, the point is we dont know, some people like to invest in this kind of company, even for a tax writeoff.
Lower operating costs by hiring less lawyers, more illegal aliens.
Im not saying its right, just that they can do it.
Verizon doesnt want to do anything there, but fairpoint does, so I dont see much choices for those people.
The county I live in is not getting fios anytime soon either, and we have 285,000 citizens and around 2 mill non-citizens.
Havent heard one peep about any upgrades here, we usually get them 10 years after everyone else. Even though our streets are filled with fiber.
--
‘Do ye, quieting in your bosoms your strong hearts,
Who of many good things have had your fill even to surfeit,
With what is moderate nourish your mighty desire; for neither will
We yield, nor shall you have all else as you wish.’
Solon | |
| | | | |
publius
@verizon.com
| Re: wow Ga, are you high? Charge which tourists where for DSL? I know that I'm not going to go on vacation and pay for internet. I would hope that whatever hotel or Inn I'm staying at would have internet access.
and let me tell you, Fairpoint is going to have to hire a slew of lawyers to defend themselves against the myriad of cases they will have filed against them for crappy service, billing errors, and unfullfilled promises (just as happened in the past when they bought phone companies in MUCH smaller locales).
Don't fool yourself, Fairpoint doesn't want to provide you with DSL.. they want to suck as much money out of you as possible with 20 year old technology. | |
| | | | droobie
Premium
join:2007-10-09
Bangor, ME
·Great Works Internet
| I think you pretty much have the idea.
However, Presque Isle, Houlton, Caribou, etc. at least have cable and Cable Internet, usually in those areas that would be within the DSL loop limit. The problem (of course) is outside those limits but within city boundaries.
I do believe growth exists (more or less in spite of the state government) in several portions of the state that were still better off than Northern Maine. Unfortunately, it has taken a lot of time to trickle from Portland to Bangor, and will take even longer to trickle further north (to Lincoln/Millinocket or even further to Houlton, Caribou, Fort Kent, etc). It MAY happen in my lifetime, but I still have at least 60 years to go.
If it weren't for education (colleges), tourism (recreation namely), Canadian traffic, and some exports, I think Aroostook and Washington County would be significantly worse off. I do consider often at night what would be a great 'killer app' for those regions to generate population and jobs. Unfortunately, I'm dumbfounded, but impressed by those who do come in to exist in these regions.
Verizon made their thoughts known when they never upgraded to ADSL2+ technology and still claims 1.5mbit is max at 15000 feet. Of course, since Fairpoint's current offerings in their Maine markets are expensive AND slow (even compared to Verizon's offerings), I have no reason to believe that Fairpoint is the solution. If anything, they are just more of the problem.
Great Works went it alone and developed their own ADSL2+ offering in Maine. Being able to get 20mbit in Millinocket is an impressive feat, but is still unfortunately limited to the distance laws of DSL. My concern is that Fairpoint's acquisition will undermine the efforts of GWI (and any other DSL CLECs).
I do not believe DSL is 'faulty' though, just that some implementations are faulty. As it goes, my DSL service has been nothing but a great thing to have for years. I can't say the same for the state of cable here. | |
| brainlessdog
join:2005-11-30
Portsmouth, NH
| This is Corporate Greed at its Worst The people of northern New England are getting hosed. Verizon's plan was to replace the copper network with fiber. Verizon promised FIOS, then finds some dumb company to trick into buying an aging copper plant. Fairpoint is promising the world to get this deal done. Fairpoint will probably go bankrupt if the deal falls through. Lets just hope that the system is not so corrupt that the PUC's can end this fiasco. | |
| | bogey780
join:2004-03-19
Here | Re: This is Corporate Greed at its Worst Isit really them being greedy when support/opposition to the deal hinges on how much they can give you? | |
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OnTheOtherHand
@verizon.net | Raises will not be a problem Raises will not be a problem, since any jobs that could be outsourced WILL be outsourced!
Customer Service India!
Database Updates India!
Repair Center India!
Tech Rollout India (arrival 4 weeks)! | |
| | |
NY Tel
Always 180 Degrees Out-of-Phase
Premium
join:2004-04-09
Smithtown, NY
·VOIPo
| Re: Read the Org Chart: Little there there. They all look like the WAMU Bankers in the Washington Mutual commercials.  | |
| adesjardin
join:2006-03-22
South Burlington, VT
| wtf... As a Vermont Verizon Customer this is ridiculous. The reason there's no money in area around here is because EVERYONE'S service is terrible. Maybe if they went the extra mile and upgraded us to something better than the same crap connections we've had for 8 years, they would gain a lot of customers, actually, I can guarantee they would gain customer's.
It's pretty much them saying that because of where I live I will never get a decent internet connection, which is crap. | |
| | | | | | | Sammer
join:2005-12-22
Pittsburgh, PA | The only problem with that scenario is that it will be Verizon's shareholders that will own a majority of Fairpoint unless they sell fast. | |
| | | | droobie
Premium
join:2007-10-09
Bangor, ME
·Great Works Internet
| They're also taking away copper from FIOS markets (and FIOS installed houses) to remove competition and they're installing FIOS directly into competition in AT&T markets which will probably help kill or injure cable and copper services in any markets they serve.
Then there's only one thing left to do.. Jack up the price...
By the time everyone figures this out, the game will already be played. I guess then we'll go back through the same cycle we did with copper, where the government will require opening of competition, etc. It will be messy and a long process. | |
| 
Hymn
join:2002-09-29
Lewiston, ME | verizon vs fairpoint Personally I have dropped verizon for my DSL, The service was terrible. The phone service is just borderline. And I cant afford Cable access.
Welcome to the great state of Maine. | |
| | droobie
Premium
join:2007-10-09
Bangor, ME
·Great Works Internet
| Re: verizon vs fairpoint GWI.net offers Lewiston and some places in the area there. They're also my land line Telco. You might want to check them out as they also offer phone service there on the Verizon copper. DSL and Phone together, you might do better with them than you did with Verizon.
They also have Maine based tech support and I've not had any problems. I used to have Adelphia Cable, it was... very painful. | |
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Nascar88
@verizon.net | Re: dirty little secrets the document reveals confidential testimony by Fairpoint Executives to the Maine PUC...very interesting its a MUST SEE... | |
|
vermonster
@charter.com
| Overpriced. As someone who lives in a FairPoint POTS area, they don't even offer an unlimited long distance package here.
Hell, their 1.5/1 DSL is $79.95. If they lower our rates to match the rest of the state, fine, but if not, FairPoint will continue being ridiculously overpriced.
-A | |
| | droobie
Premium
join:2007-10-09
Bangor, ME
·Great Works Internet
| Re: Overpriced. A good friend of mine was in the Litchfield/Sabattus Maine market and was paying for 39.95 service from Fairpoint. The first time she activated it was fine, but then went back to college, came back and activated again. Needless to say, it never worked right from then forward, constantly disconnecting at random several times an hour. Nothing changed in the house, phone line and phone number remained active.
Fairpoint enjoys a rural exemption for their current markets, which means you will never see DSL competition on their lines (with exception to the Fairpoint acquired Verizon markets, assuming it goes through). Basically you get to 'deal with it', hope cable is coming (or is there), or switch to satellite (which has its own problems). The rural exemption affects your ability to get unlimited LD service too, especially from a 3rd party such as IDT.
That's one of the other problems I have with the Fairpoint deal. Fairpoint has made it clear that they intend to keep these exemptions in markets they already have. The acquisition would not help your situation in the least. | |
|
thinker
@uu.net
| freedom I am not sure I understand all that is going on between Fairpoint and Verizon but one thing I do know is that at one time my household had Faipoint and they were great. We moved to a new home and Verizon put up the pole. Our power company attached themselves to that pole also. Then the fun began. We signed up for their "package" deal. But it was NO deal! At the end of the bundle "package deal the charges went up. When we had any problems and we had several their was no REAL person to talk to and when we finally did get through to a real person they were from India!!! Yes, I mean India. Not and Indian in the USA but IN INDIA!! Both my husband and I talked to several people who we really never understood and who did not understand us. So if this the kind of stuff that goes on with a large company live the big "V" I say I would rather go with the small company. And, I must be missing something...who is voting this on this purchase anyway. I don't remember anyone coming to our house to ask me anything. So you go Fairpoint!!!!!!!!!! | |
| |
nascar88
@verizon.net
| Re: freedom Wow, there is alot I see you do not understand about this mis-deal between Verizon and Fairpoint!!! This is the BIGGEST case the PUC's in the 3 states have ever seen, and worth looking into before forming an opinion. I would ask you, with Fairpoint did you even have DSL to be able to use thier outsoursed support? Fairpoint outsourses more than just thier DSL support, look into it... Now, you have worked through the process with the "BIG V", hows the service?
DSL is an outdated internet access technology in the industry. Its like putting a patch on an old tire...it will get you by, but... Not long ago, most homes had second telephone lines dedicated to dial-up internet access. Today most of these lines have been disconnected or traded for DSL or CATV access. Dail-up(64Kbps) became the whipping boy of DSL(3Mbps)and today DSL is the whipping boy of FIBER(100Mbps). DSL (3Mbps),CATV(10Mbps) and FIBER(100Mbps) are all technologies offered to the home, if the network can support it. The current copper based telephone network can only bundle voice and limited data, CATV and FIBER networks can bundle voice, data and video on demand services.
The goal in todays information age, is to be on the fastest data platform possible. Fairpoint cannot afford FIBER. Fairpoint is promising DSL to the "last pole in Maine". AARP data shows 85% of the state of Maine, already have access to the internet by either DSL(3Mbps) or CATV(10Mbps). A study released this past summer said 40 % of the income earned in Maine was generated around Portland, not the Alagash. If the MOST of Maine is to remain competitive, this state will need to be developing towards FIBER not DSL. Page 24 of the Hearing Examiners report to the MPUC states, that one of the key ojectives for Verizon was to eliminate or minimize the tax consequences through a complicated tax code called The Reverse Morris Trust. Because of this condition, other more suitable companies were not considered. This state does not need the DSL detour or the only buyer intown, because of tax considerations for Verizon. I urge people to contact thier legislative representitives and ask them to contact the governor to protect the consumer and support stopping this sale... From financial and technical perspectives,this sale is not the right sale for our state... check this article, in The Portland Phoenix based on confidential MPUC testimony about Fairpoint's financial model ... »thephoenix.com/article_ektid51485.aspx | |
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