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Huge Debate Set Over FISA Re-Authorization
Congress Trampling Constitution and None of Them Care
by Karl Bode 02:45PM Friday Dec 14 2012
Back in 2008 Congress passed the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA), which not only retroactively gave the government a pass for years of illegal spying on its own citizens, but gave broadband ISPs a get out of jail free card for helping them. FISA is expected to see renewal this month, with the only real debate being for how long to extend the law. While the House has passed a measure that would extend the law for five years, a Senate committee is pushing to have the law extended by three years.

The only problem with all of this? None of it is Constitutional. Judge Andrew Napolitano has posted an interesting piece over at Reason noting how the entire creation of the closed-door rubber-stamping FISA court violates the Fourth Amendment, and nobody in politics seems to care. It's a failure of leadership across the board, argues Napolitano, who notes FISA is a huge threat to the public moving forward:
quote:
Moreover, everyone in Congress has taken an oath to uphold the Constitution, which could not be more clear: "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects..." shall not be violated, except via a warrant issued by a neutral judge upon the judge finding probable cause of crime. If we let Congress, which is a creature of the Constitution, change the Constitution, then no one's liberty or property is safe, and freedom is dependent upon the political needs of those in power.

The President and the leadership of both political parties in both houses of Congress have abandoned their oaths to uphold the Constitution. They have claimed that foreigners and their American communicants are committed to destroying the country and only the invasion of everyone's right to privacy will keep us safe. They are violating the privacy of us all to find the communications of a few. Who will keep us safe from them?
And while Napolitano notes how government surveillance has gotten entirely out of control, he doesn't even touch on this week's revelations that the government is now essentially vacuuming up all non-criminal data on every U.S. citizen just in case they might be able to predict a crime before it happens.

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Skippy25

join:2000-09-13
Hazelwood, MO

Elect Him

Well maybe this guy needs to be put in a position to help protect the constitution being it appears he is one of the few that understands and wants to protect it.
Expand your moderator at work
jc100

join:2002-04-10

1 edit

Re: Elect Him

I call it Fearism. Americans are a bunch of reactionaries. Fear Fear Fear, everyone's out to get you. Well folks, today there was a school shooting that killed 28. There was the Aurora Shooting that killed quite a few. There are 16-22,000 Murders a year in this country. I don't hear the NRA championing the elimination of guns or stricter laws. Of course not.

There are 40,000 Vehicular Homicides a year. Let's do away with cars!

Funny, I don't recall hearing any repeats of 9/11 or any mass tragedies on a regular basis related to terrorism. Yet, we're VERY WILLING to give up every right on the guise of What If and The Government can "Make Me Safe". "I Swear".

Ah yes, America... Home of the Ignorant and Land of the Misguided. Too bad people don't see that once you give away rights, they're very hard to get back and there's always a grab for more.

pike
Premium,MVM
join:2001-02-01
Washington, DC
kudos:3

2 edits

Re: Elect Him

I love the "let's ban cars" argument in the gun control debate.

Traffic fatalities: 32,367
»www.nhtsa.gov/About+NHTSA/Press+···+Percent

Gun-related deaths: 31,347
»www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/injury.htm

Besides, motor vehicles are regulated, inspected, and registered. Drivers are tested and licensed. Firearms and their owners are not.

I'm not taking a position on this but the car argument is a piss-poor analogy.
jc100

join:2002-04-10

Re: Elect Him

No it's not pike. People cannot be a felon or commit certain crimes and still own a legal firearm. Likewise, a person under indictment or are addicted to controlled substances are barred, too. However, due to our nascent gun laws, the legal precursor barely makes a difference. Guns are readily accessible.

Per testing a person, to acquire a CCW (Concealed Weapon Permit), one takes a test. Does that mean he or she is competent? No.

The same for driving. ANYONE can pass a test. If the test meant competent, we wouldn't have 40,000 fatalities a year in "accidents".

The point here is that life isn't safe and comes with inherent risks. You neither see an outcry to ban cars, stiffen the test and preclude certain people, etc. 100 Year old grandma who is blind and nearly deaf renews her license yearly if she has a clean record by mail and mows down a crowd one day.

The same argument that you don't find the NRA making a case for stiffer gun control so firearms aren't free floating around the street. You also don't see a push to make owning a firearm tied to mental stability. I.E. If a person has a history of mental illness, he or she cannot purchase a gun. Nope, we sell to them all the same.

The point I'm making is that America is so reactionary, because our media runs a story as if it's gospel. Albeit overlooking that many other circumstances take FAR MORE LIVES on a daily basis. Instead of making policies to correct these problem, our News creates a stir over issues that are an anomaly.

How Often are Planes Crashing? Terrorists Attacking America? People Mailing Anthrax Letters? Yet, the way we hear about these events when an instance occurred, you'd think we're facing an epidemic. In reality, we've got far bigger fish to fry and minor corrective action is usually needed to prevent these problems.

pike
Premium,MVM
join:2001-02-01
Washington, DC
kudos:3

Re: Elect Him

I respectfully disagree with your first points and would be happy to debate with you when we're not discussing an unrelated news article.

said by jc100:

The point I'm making is that America is so reactionary, because our media runs a story as if it's gospel. Albeit overlooking that many other circumstances take FAR MORE LIVES on a daily basis. Instead of making policies to correct these problem, our News creates a stir over issues that are an anomaly.

How Often are Planes Crashing? Terrorists Attacking America? People Mailing Anthrax Letters? Yet, the way we hear about these events when an instance occurred, you'd think we're facing an epidemic. In reality, we've got far bigger fish to fry and minor corrective action is usually needed to prevent these problems.

I could not have said this better myself, thumbs up.
jc100

join:2002-04-10

1 recommendation

Re: Elect Him

Pike the article is about freedoms, and it's the perfect context to discuss the erosion of our natural born liberties. FISA inherently impacts how you and I live on a daily basis. Sadly, most of our country are what I call Chicken Littles. When the news reports a sensational story, society to include our reactionary politicians, bandwagon the topic. When the bridge fell, infrastructures the problem. When Aurora and school shootings happened, mental illness. - Of Course, Fox news says now's not the time to talk about guns (Rolls eyes).

The fact of the matter is that our country is made up NITWITS. I.E. Look at 9/11 and the expansion of our government. A deconstruction of our constitution over an event that takes FAR FEWER lives than handguns. We now torture "terrorists", invade countries, and all you hear about is how Muslims are out to kill Americans..... Sure they are and the Flying Spaghetti Monster is out to reclaim his booty of pirate gold. Religion is a problem (Christianity, Islam, etc) but the problem is from a small segment of society. Yet, our government uses the context of 9/11 to justify just about EVERY intrusion into our lives now.

Yet, you have the Auroa Shooting, 16-22,000 Murders (80% involve handguns), School Shootings, etc and no one is to touch the second amendment. Lo and Behold, the NRA doesn't talk about gun reform. Nope, how dare America touch that sacred wording.

Instead, we'll gut the constitution and be left with nothing but our guns and cars. Neither cause any problems... Ah yes, America the once glorious Democracy.

pike
Premium,MVM
join:2001-02-01
Washington, DC
kudos:3

Re: Elect Him

I think I misunderstood your first post (thought you were making an argument not to change gun laws). I completely agree with everything you are saying here.
clone

join:2000-12-11
Portage, IN
Reviews:
·T-Mobile US

3 recommendations

Blanket Post

...so all the others usual suspects don't have to:

- If you have nothing to hide don't worry about it.
- DOMESTIC TERRORISMS!!!!
- Privacy is dead, get over it you luddite anachronism
- As long as you keep the boogeyman (of the week) away, I'm fine with this
- AL QAEDAS!!!!
- Illegal spying has always been going on, so that makes it A-OK.
- But, 9/11.
- The 4th Amendment only states papers and effects. Electronic spying is therefore not protected against.
- No one is forcing you to use the internet or phone or whatever.
- Why do you hate America?
- No one cares who you talk to or what you do if you're not a terrorist. (Until whatever you do is retroactively made illegal)

If I forgot any, feel free to add them to the "Official Apologist List"

FFH5
Premium
join:2002-03-03
Tavistock NJ
kudos:5

Re: Blanket Post

You are being sarcastic, but there are a lot of good reasons in your post.

KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK

Re: Blanket Post

No, there isn't.
sonicmerlin

join:2009-05-24
Cleveland, OH
kudos:1
No, there isn't.
NOVA_UAV_Guy
Premium
join:2012-12-14
Purcellville, VA

3 recommendations

Forget +1. +1,000,000.

FISA never should have seen the light of day. The fact that both the Demoblicans and Republicrats agree on something like this is simultaneously scary and sad.
scross

join:2002-09-13
Cordova, TN
"- No one cares who you talk to or what you do if you're not a terrorist. (Until whatever you do is retroactively made illegal)"

This is called an "ex post facto" law and is expressly forbidden by the Constitution. Of course, if we are running roughshod over the Constitution anyway (as appears to be the case these days), then this hardly matters, now does it?

Anonymous_
Anonymous
Premium
join:2004-06-21
127.0.0.1
kudos:2
Reviews:
·Time Warner Cable
said by clone:

...so all the others usual suspects don't have to:

- If you have nothing to hide don't worry about it.
- DOMESTIC TERRORISMS!!!!

has not stopped any shootings

shootings seem to be very popular now days
--
Well, does your car at least turn into something else? Sometimes I turn it into a trashcan. Hmm...
Kearnstd
Space Elf
Premium
join:2002-01-22
Mullica Hill, NJ
kudos:1
left out
"For the Children"
and "Combating Child Pornography"

the second one will move any bill through congress faster than lightning through a golfer.
--
[65 Arcanist]Filan(High Elf) Zone: Broadband Reports

mr sean
Professional Infidel
Premium,ExMod 2001-07
join:2001-04-03
N. Absentia
kudos:1

Re: Congress & FISA


NotSoFastnow

@comcast.net

Removing the blinders

What people seem to forget, this WILL and DOES go beyond spying on bad guys. How the hell do you think they filter them out? Seems people have forget about all the hoopla when AT&T was exposed for routing IP traffic to the NSA's cloud. Yes, little orange gigarouters were installed with fiber backbone at EVERY MSO/Switchsite to route all IP traffic through a scruber (if you will) and it would pull out text that contained specific words. Now, rewind a couple years when the FBI wanted to do the same thing and NO ONE would have anything to do with it. But now it's OK? Nothing to hide has nothing to do with whats REALLY being done here. So, when I had to signoff on the installation of such a box at where I worked, I went home the next day and started encrypting everything. I've was using PGP for years but there are others that the NSA or FBI can't break and you can bet they are not from the U.S. So, we all can sit back, be good little citizens and live in glass houses allowing the govt or anyone else (what it amounts to) snoop our lives, or, we can make it very difficult for them to get one usable bit of data. Just saying.
elray

join:2000-12-16
Santa Monica, CA
Reviews:
·Time Warner Cable
·EarthLink

Barking up the wrong trees

As much as I loathe the spooks forever warehousing every possible bitstream for future fishing expeditions, I fail to see why the pundits continue to assail the ISPs and telcos for cooperating with the very government from which they derive their authority to operate.

Our beef is with Congress. If you keep electing clowns who fail to represent our interests (not one of my candidates has ever won), if you are unwilling to even meet and civilly discuss policy with what you perceive is the opposition, then those who make the rules will continue to ignore your concerns.

Dominokat
"Hi"
Premium
join:2002-08-06
Boothbay, ME
kudos:2

It's done

No matter how bad or how good it is. Nothing congress has passed has ever been reversed. Amended, yes. So this rule, or whatever it is. Is here to stay in one form or another regardless.
NOVA_UAV_Guy
Premium
join:2012-12-14
Purcellville, VA

1 recommendation

Re: It's done

There's one exception to that, I believe - prohibition. But your point is well taken. That view is precisely why I spent months telling my friends that ObamaCare wouldn't be killed - even if Romney were to have won by a landslide.
MaynardKrebs
Heave Steve, for the good of the country
Premium
join:2009-06-17
kudos:4

That's one brave judge

Hate to think what would happen to him if some of the TLA's (three-lettered agency) got hold of him for trying to take their power away.

Camaro
Question everything
Premium
join:2008-04-05
Westfield, MA
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Verizon Wireless..
·Comcast

Amazing

They can't balance there own damn checkbook to keep this country above water, but they can pass this quicker then the salary increase they vote for themselves, but the hell with unemployment, the trillions of dollars we are buried in you know real problems that effect you and I. Fucking assholes plain and simple are the only words.
scross

join:2002-09-13
Cordova, TN

Re: Amazing

Ya know, there was all this discussion and passion and drama over the Presidential election, yet there was almost no turnover in Congress because people mostly just voted to re-elect the incumbents - because all of their energy and attention was directed toward the Presidency. This is how the system works, folks. This is how the powers-that-be want it to work, folks, so that real change never happens! Remember that when the next election cycle comes up.

Hank
Searching for a new Frontier
Premium
join:2002-05-21
Burlington, WV
kudos:3
Reviews:
·Frontier Communi..

Are you Surprised

How many of you voted? How many of you researched the candidate you voted for? How many of you voted for and continue to vote for a career politician? How many of you contact your Congressman or Senator and express your opinion on issues? How many of you just set back on your laurels and accept the way things are?

Katzendreck

join:2003-09-29
Calgary, AB

Re: Are you Surprised

said by Hank:

How many of you voted? How many of you researched the candidate you voted for? How many of you voted for and continue to vote for a career politician? How many of you contact your Congressman or Senator and express your opinion on issues? How many of you just set back on your laurels and accept the way things are?

2008 -- *pushes D button*

2012 -- *pushes R button*

(or vice versa)

Yep, I sure made a change.
--
Politicians realized from business that marketing is sufficient over quality, which is why politicians try and market their personalities rather than the quality of their work.

Katzendreck

join:2003-09-29
Calgary, AB

They committed to this abuse years ago

During the Bush administration.

Republicans and Democrats in Congress, along with the President no matter which party he is from, want this authority for government to have over the populace.

Obama as a Senator blasted warrantless wiretapping but as soon as it was realised his campaign against Hillary was in his favour, he switched positions realising he would benefit from this.. it also helped that AT&T sponsored the DNC in 2008.

Then they went ahead and modified FISA together giving retroactive immunity to law breaking.

These people are out to protect each other, not American freedoms. The populace must hold them accountable but instead they are biting at the carrot these politicians spend so much money to market and create typical divisiveness with. So long as this is allowed the government mouse will want a cookie, then a glass of milk, and so on, until something gives. They have been given the mandate to do so. The constitution will not protect rights by itself, it needs the populace to help keep it that way. Right now they are not helping by continuously electing people who flat out will eliminate said rights.
--
Politicians realized from business that marketing is sufficient over quality, which is why politicians try and market their personalities rather than the quality of their work.

Teaddle

@sbcglobal.net

It's a lost cause

It doesn't matter who gets elected and what they promise nor what a judge thinks. If the three letter boys want it it will be there, whether illegal or not. Look at how Hoover spied on everyone in Washington yet not one person did ANYTHING about it and that's just one cretin. Constitutionality doesn't mean crap anymore. Look at the damned track record of the spineless riff-raff occupying the House, Senate and even the Supreme Court. The powers say this is what is going to happen and get the Supreme court to either refuse to rule on the case or flat out refuse to disclose any details. We are living in a totalitarian era and 99% of the US population either doesn't care, doesn't realize or are too scared to say or do anything about their Constitutional rights being trampled. Face it, their is no balance of power and the voting tool has been effectively nullified and made useless by the sell out Congress, Presidency and Judicial branches. The TERRORISTS have won and we elected them
rdmiller

join:2005-09-23
Richmond, VA

Tin-foil hat

Napolitano is Fox News' premier fear-monger. When Republicans are in power, the government can't do enough to protect its citizens. When Democrats control the Executive Branch, our liberty ... liberty ... liberty is being is being usurped. Gotta luv em.

kingdome74
Let's Go Orange
Premium
join:2002-03-27
Syracuse, NY
kudos:5
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS

CH-CH-CH-

CHANGES! Change that R to a D and all sins are forgiven. I guess those who tore into Bush and sit silent since 2008 put politics ahead of country. NICE!
--
Stayed #4. Next up on 12/15 Canisius. Nassib was named All-American over Bridgewater in Pro Football Weekly. Grats Ryan!
NOVA_UAV_Guy
Premium
join:2012-12-14
Purcellville, VA
Reviews:
·Comcast

1 recommendation

Re: CH-CH-CH-

said by kingdome74:

CHANGES! Change that R to a D and all sins are forgiven. I guess those who tore into Bush and sit silent since 2008 put politics ahead of country. NICE!

They're far too busy gloating over Dear Leader's "victory" to care. What they don't realize is that when government does something unjust to one person or group and gets away with it, there's nothing much keeping it from enlarging the circle of those affected by its unjust actions. It may just be to catch "those darn terrorists" now, but will never stop there as we are beginning to experience now.

What affects one affects us all, but those who blindly subscribe to the "divide and conquer" rhetoric of the left and the right will not understand this truth until it is too late to stop unjust programs which have gained too much momentum. Part of me fears that we're already past the "point of no return" in some of these cases.

footballdude
Premium
join:2002-08-13
Imperial, MO

Tenth Amendment

Tenth Amendment to the Constitution of the United States of America, "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

I never hear anyone complaining about the daily abuse of this amendment. Damn near everything the Federal government does is a violation of this.
--
Concentrated power has always been the enemy of liberty - Ronald Reagan

TheHelpful1
Premium
join:2002-01-11
Upper Marlboro, MD

Re: Tenth Amendment

If every member of the House and Senate were put through the same testing we make immigrants go through to obtain citizenship (civil rights, knowledge of the constitution, etc) "I bet you $10K" more would fail it than pass it.

They don't give a damn about the papers that founded this country, they just bend over to whatever lobbyist puts the most money in their pocket and hope they don't get caught.
--
"My weakness is that I care too much"