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 lujohnson
N 0 E Q P
join:2002-08-08
Agoura Hills, CA
 ·Sprint Mobile Broa..
|  Such Thin-Skinned Crybabies!
I sure hope that The Thing fights this.... it smacks of censorship and IMO violates their (and the ISP subscriber's) protected freedom of speech. | |
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micl
Visit Lovely Downtown Port Starboard
Premium
join:2001-10-25
Silver Spring, MD
| Re: Such Thin-Skinned Crybabies! It would be interesting to see what The Thing's service contract is with Verio. Perhaps The Thing might be able to go after Verio for shutting down their WHOLE DAMN SERVICE!
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If I don't see you in the future, I'll see you in the pasture | |
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geminidomino
@fl.sprint-hsd
| Re: Such Thin-Skinned Crybabies! Ironic that Verio is cancelling them over this, especially given that once the site was removed, The Thing was not responsible for the content.
From The Things AUP/TOS
3.Accountholder acknowledges that Internet sites and use of the Internet might consist of, include and/or provide access to images, sound, messages, text and other content and material that may be unsuitable for children and that may be objectionable to many adults. Accountholder acknowledges that THING.NET COMMUNICATIONS, LLC is not responsible for any such content or material and agrees that access to same through use of the Service is at Accountholder's sole risk. Accountholder acknowledges that, when using the Internet, Accountholder generally is using a physical network and accessing content, information and other services not owned, supported, monitored or controlled by THING.NET COMMUNICATIONS, LLC. Accountholder acknowledges that safeguards relative to copyright, ownership, decency, obscenity, reliability and integrity of content may be entirely lacking with respect to the Internet and content accessible through it. Accountholder assumes all risk and liability of its use of the Internet, including continuous compliance with this Service Agreement. You understand further that the Internet contains unedited materials some of which are sexually explicit or may be offensive to you. You access such materials at your own risk. THING.NET COMMUNICATIONS, LLC has no control over and accepts no responsibility whatsoever for such materials.
And yet Verio let's the spammers run free and crap on our mailservers.
If you'll excuse me, I need to go to blocklists.us and add verio to my border router... | |
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jose3030
Premium
join:1999-08-17
Manassas, VA
| Re: Such Thin-Skinned Crybabies! The big webhosts are always gonna have issues w/ people.
A lot of companies use them, and then a lot of spammers use them, and then - well, u get the picture.
It's like AOL.
A lot of spam originates from AOL.
It's consistent with the amount of users they have. | |
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geminidomino
@fl.sprint-hsd | Re: Such Thin-Skinned Crybabies! Actually, rarely does spam come from an AOL user that isnt just burning up "1000 free hours" CDs. AOL will nuke a spammer rather quickly, as will any responsible provider.
Verio is not one of them. | |
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jose3030
Premium
join:1999-08-17
Manassas, VA | Re: Such Thin-Skinned Crybabies! AOL's 35 million users.
35 MILLION users.
That's a lot of people. | |
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yourmama
@198.3.x.x | Re: Such Thin-Skinned Crybabies! I believe by 'pure defamation of character' you meant PARODY.
Which, last I saw, was protected speech. But with the loss of other rights, privacy and miscellaneous freedoms, I may have overlooked that one. | |
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nonymous
@rocketinternet.net
 from:
bear73 
| Re: Such Thin-Skinned Crybabies! I think he crossed the line of parody. He used the dow chemical name for the site and then posted a letter that looked like it came from Dow Chemical. You would have to read several of the articles to realize this is a parody and not an actual dow chemical website. | |
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bear73
Metnav... Fly The Unfriendly Skies
Premium
join:2001-06-09
Grand Forks Afb, ND
 ·Midcontinent Commu..
| I would agree with you that it was purely a parody IF there had been a statement (not fine print) that it was a parody or other some such activist statement. While I agree with what DOW and VERIO has done is BAD, (and DOW should be held responsible for the actions of their holdings) I don't blame them from trying to protect themselves. YESMEN left themselves vulnerable. As to VERIO, they, I'm sure, are just distancing themselves from any impending fireballs.
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Running with Speakeasy after QWest refused to remove load coils and condition my line for DSL. Speakeasy with COVAD had it done in a few days. | |
| | | | Dave_L_H
join:2002-11-16
Vallejo, CA
| said by yourmama:
I believe by 'pure defamation of character' you meant PARODY.
Which, last I saw, was protected speech. But with the loss of other rights, privacy and miscellaneous freedoms, I may have overlooked that one.
parody implies thats it's funny or all in fun, this was something that was put together for the sole purpose of slandering a company the site clearly states it's from dow and issues statements in dow's name. Now i don't know what happened in india and i'm sure dow like all other big chemical companies has caused lots of problems there are much more effective(like giving some facts would be nice) and legal means of drawing attention to these things this site does more harm to their cause than good. It attracts the wrong attention to what their trying to say | |
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micl
Visit Lovely Downtown Port Starboard
Premium
join:2001-10-25
Silver Spring, MD
| Re: Such Thin-Skinned Crybabies! said by Dave_L_H :
Now i don't know what happened in india and i'm sure dow like all other big chemical companies has caused lots of problems there are much more effective(like giving some facts would be nice) and legal means of drawing attention to these things this site does more harm to their cause than good. It attracts the wrong attention to what their trying to say
Ummm... back in 1984, an accident at the Union Carbide (owned by Dow Chemical) plant in Bhopal, India killed almost 4000 people and injured 3000 when a type of cyanide gas leaked from the plant. This was one of the worst chemical disasters of all time. Funny how it has faded from memory so quickly...
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If I don't see you in the future, I'll see you in the pasture | |
| | | | | | Dave_L_H
join:2002-11-16
Vallejo, CA | Re: Such Thin-Skinned Crybabies! yea and that site said it was 20000 if i'm mistaken, they were clearly wrong and verio used this as a excuse to drop a problem they have wanted to get rid of for a long time | |
| | | lujohnson
N 0 E Q P
join:2002-08-08
Agoura Hills, CA
·Sprint Mobile Broa..
| __________________________________________________________
**Did you even read the "press release"? I'm all for free speech and all, but come on. That was pure defamation of character. I believe The Things provider has basically had enough, as the article states this is not the first problem that The Thing has been involved in.**
__________________________________________________________
Actually, I did. I also visited the site. It will be interesting to see if the 'defamation' thing would actually hold up in court. I mean, I have seen MUCH worse on the web. I left the site in question feeling as if it was simply his scalding opinion on Dow.... nothing more.
BTW, I am not 'siding' with any of the participants in this confilict... I could care less, and don't even agree with some opinions expressed on the site ...some are simply inaccurate. But what I am concerned about is the damage caused to the individual or small business by the 'over-reactionism' and 'knee-jerk' sanctions in this particular and other similar situations.
It deserves watching methinks. | |
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micl
Visit Lovely Downtown Port Starboard
Premium
join:2001-10-25
Silver Spring, MD
| From Dow's press release:
quote:
The provider, Verio, graciously complied with our letter citing the Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA). Not only did they shut down Dow-Chemical.com, but as a good corporate citizen, they agreed to shut down an entire network (Thing.net) of websites many of which, while unrelated to dow-chemical.com, appear to serve no commercial purpose, being dedicated to the unproductive analysis and critique of society and corporate behaviour.
I think this paragraph from Dow's press release says it all when it lauds the fact that Verio shut down not only the sites that may (or may not) have infringed on Dow's copyright, but other sites as well. Dow shows its true character here and it also shows how both it and Verio would rather swat the fly with the proverbial shotgun.
[edit] And BTW: who the hell is Dow to determine what is and is not productive "analysis and critique of society and corporate behavior," beyond what may have affected them and their copyrights??? [end edit]
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If I don't see you in the future, I'll see you in the pasture
[text was edited by author 2002-12-31 13:01:38] | |
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slim
Premium
join:2001-02-13
Arlington, VA | Re: uhhh
I guess it is hard to tell the difference...
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si hoc legere scis nimium eruditiones habes! | |
| | | | | | | | | cableblows3
join:2001-06-17
Indianapolis, IN | Re: Such Thin-Skinned Crybabies! unnn is this the same company that killed thousands in india?
i guess you could call that productive........ | |
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uniquecp
Where'D It Go
Premium
join:2001-08-07
Scottsdale, AZ
| said by onsitede :
Did you even read the "press release"? I'm all for free speech and all, but come on. That was pure defamation of character. I believe The Things provider has basically had enough, as the article states this is not the first problem that The Thing has been involved in.
Have you ever read some of the posts on this forum, in fact I find your opinion a true defamation of character, the character of the Constitution, so what do I do now tell Justin if he does not pull your account I will sue him until he bleeds out of every legal hole he has.
and I can
Good thing I believe in free speech huh.
Clif
--
I crunch therefore I am | |
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Qumahlin
Never Enough Time
Premium,MVM
join:2001-10-05
united state
| I think what Verio did was horrible...But as for Dow...
If you research the matter this company didn't simply set up a "parody" site. They sent out emails to various agencies, people, etc claiming to ACTUALLY BE Dow...They then directed people who received the emails to goto www.dow-chemical.com for further info. And that site was made to look official.
They didn't merely "parody" a site...they set up a smear campaign against dow. This is the equivalent of those people that set up mimic sites for banks and then emailed people to "update" their account info and sent them to the link to the fake site where they gave up their personal info and got ripped off. Sure this isn't nearly as extreme, but it's along the same lines of impersonating a company for your own personal goal
What verio did to the thing is awful, but what the "yes men" tried to do to Dow is clearly illegal
If you want to make a site to bash a company..fine there are plenty of them. But going around pretending to be that company and creating a website to further lie and make people believe you are that company is illegal
[text was edited by author 2002-12-31 12:47:43] | |
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Karl Bode
News Guy
join:2000-03-02 | Re: Such Thin-Skinned Crybabies! So the fault then, falls with the "yes men" and not the ISP....that should be made clear.
Shutting down ISP's because of the actions of some of the subscribers is a road we shouldn't be going down..... | |
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CFeicht4
join:2000-09-01
Oley, PA
| Re: Such Thin-Skinned Crybabies! Yes, it's much smarter to live strictly to Constitutional law and allow potential tens of thousands to die than to be practical about a situation and prevent the destruction from happening in the first place.
Your civil rights won't matter much when we all go BOOM into the ionosphere. For all of the alarmism coming from the Isle of Pups, I haven't seen anything that is leading me to believe that I am less free now than before. God (oops, did I say that) forbid that we prevent a tragedy instead of reacting to one post-mortem.
Last time I checked, it's against the law to represent yourself as a company without prior approval or use their name without the same. What's your problem with that? The host of the offending website refused to comply to warnings sent to him, and the ISP was held accountable instead.
"The law at all costs", right Pup? If that's the case then get off the DMCA's case for living to your own ideals.
Christian | |
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pupowski
Premium
join:2002-03-22
Vancouver, WA
·Clearwire Wireless
·Cricket Broadband
·Comcast Formerly ..
| Re: Such Thin-Skinned Crybabies! said by CFeicht4 :
Your civil rights won't matter much when we all go BOOM into the ionosphere. For all of the alarmism coming from the Isle of Pups, I haven't seen anything that is leading me to believe that I am less free now than before. God (oops, did I say that) forbid that we prevent a tragedy instead of reacting to one post-mortem.
Alarmism is your BS and fear, not mine. Cowards who buy into GWB's fear mongering are part of the problem, not the solution. I'm for America, which is embodied in rule of law, not personality cults, wing-nut ideology, or whims of man. Our Constitution and Bill of Rights make America, not the real estate.Ben Franklin said "Those willing to sacrifice essential liberty for safety deserve neither". That means you Chris, and neither is what you're getting from this administration.The DMCA is garbage, and should be recognized as such by anybody with an IQ over 60. But that isn't the real issue, which is rule of law and judicial oversight. There is no due process here, no chance to contest the facts of the matter. That is not the American way as I know it! "The law at all costs" is your rigid thinking, not mine. Rule of law applies to all,and has judges to temper decisions. Extremist black and white views are for tyrants, hippocrite ideologues, neo-con wing-nuts,& religious wing-nuts who rigidly interpret the bible, Koran, etc. to suit their ideological needs.
In this case, I agree the material should be stricken, but not the ISP, and not without a hearing.
Have a happy new year
Pup
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The wealth of great nations is spiritual, not material. | |
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pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
·Comcast
| Re: Such Thin-Skinned Crybabies! said by pupowski :
Cowards who buy into GWB's fear mongering are part of the problem, not the solution.
What are you talking about? The DMCA was passed by Clinton, not Bush.
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DRM == Doesn't Read MP3s | |
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geminidomino
@fl.sprint-hsd
thumbs down from:
Beeper
| Re: Such Thin-Skinned Crybabies! I think he was referring to this:
Your civil rights won't matter much when we all go BOOM into the ionosphere. For all of the alarmism coming from the Isle of Pups, I haven't seen anything that is leading me to believe that I am less free now than before. God (oops, did I say that) forbid that we prevent a tragedy instead of reacting to one post-mortem.
Also known as "The Dumbya Shrub party line"
If we don't kill them, they'll kill us. Maybe not today, maybe not tommorow, maybe not until 2162, but someday...
Oil and $$$. If they'd just admit that, I wouldn't relish the though of his tonsils being removed...
With a pliers...
Through his rectum. | |
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CFeicht4
join:2000-09-01
Oley, PA
| Re: Such Thin-Skinned Crybabies! Well, no one really thought 9/11 would happen and it did. Because your prejudiced mind can't grasp the concept doesn't mean it can't happen. Was 9/11 a concoction of someone's imagination? It could be you in the next one. I suspect that you probably woouldn't care unless you were in the next one.
Talking like a teenager doesn't do much for your argument.
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"The Constitution of the United States is not a suicide pact." ---Andrew Jackson | |
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slim
Premium
join:2001-02-13
Arlington, VA
| Re: Such Thin-Skinned Crybabies! said by pupowski :
Did somebody say otherwise, or do you just need some attention today? Clinton didn't pass the DMCA, Congress did, and both houses were controlled by Republicans at the time. Enactment and enforcement are separate issues, with the Constitution and Bill of Rights being prime examples. This administration games both in a repulsive parody of Democratic principles.
Lets put the blame correctly on both parties just to be fair and correct here, ok? The DMCA was debated for two years and examined by four congressional committees before it was enacted in 1998. It enjoyed wide bipartisan support and was ultimately approved by Congress by a unanimous vote. The original text of the law originated from the Democratic Commerce Department and was the passed by a Republican Congress. There was not a peep of oppostion to this bill from either Clinton or either party in Congress.
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si hoc legere scis nimium eruditiones habes! | |
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Eatmeingreek
Gentard
join:2001-06-29
San Francisco, CA
| said by CFeicht4 :
Your civil rights won't matter much when we all go BOOM into the ionosphere. For all of the alarmism coming from the Isle of Pups, I haven't seen anything that is leading me to believe that I am less free now than before.
And I haven't seen anything that is leading me to believe that we will "all go BOOM into the ionosphere."
I'm also having a little trouble believing that Pup is the alarmist here.
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We must destroy liberty to make the homeland safe for democracy | |
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CFeicht4
join:2000-09-01
Oley, PA
| Re: Such Thin-Skinned Crybabies! "And I haven't seen anything that is leading me to believe that we will "all go BOOM into the ionosphere."
Thanks for making my point. You haven't seen it and won't see it until it happens. Considering the intelligence we have been gathering of late it's a pretty good idea to draw a conclusion that we could be in for something much worse.
Was 9/11 a made up event? Perpatrated by the US government? Israeli conspiracy maybe?
"I'm also having a little trouble believing that Pup is the alarmist here."
Being from California, I didn't expect that you would. I'm basing my opinion on my day-to-day life, not the rantings of Constitutional absolutists. It's all in the practice and not in the theory. | |
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Eatmeingreek
Gentard
join:2001-06-29
San Francisco, CA
| Re: Such Thin-Skinned Crybabies! said by CFeicht4 :
Thanks for making my point. You haven't seen it and won't see it until it happens. Considering the intelligence we have been gathering of late it's a pretty good idea to draw a conclusion that we could be in for something much worse... Was 9/11 a made up event? Perpatrated by the US government? Israeli conspiracy maybe?
So unfounded fear of invisible malefactors involved in mysterious conspiracies somehow justifies the wholesale emasculation of the Bill of Rights?
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We must destroy liberty to make the homeland safe for democracy | |
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DamnRight
@208.24.x.x
thumbs down from:
Beeper
| Welcome to the 4th Riech.
Got to love all the new censorship and laws. Country is beginging to feel like Nazi Germany or atleast Communist Russia. | |
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CFeicht4
join:2000-09-01
Oley, PA | Re: Such Thin-Skinned Crybabies! If you feel that way, I would suggest getting out more, especially to another country. You'd be back in a month, I'd put my house on it. | |
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DamnRight
@208.24.x.x
thumbs down from:
Beeper
| Re: Such Thin-Skinned Crybabies! Lived in Europe for 4 years and most the countries there share our freedoms but unlike us, they are not busy stealing them from their people and spying on them.
We use to blast Russia and other communist countries for the way they spied on their people and censored them. We called it human rights violations. Yet the USA as a country is now heading down that path slowly but surely. | |
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kilingspam
join:2001-04-30
San Jose, CA
| You really need to be clear in stating "another country".
The typical American is brainwashed into thinking every country but the US is a 3rd world country, this is just not true. There are many countries that are wonderful to live in and unlike the US they are truly democratic.
Yes it's true, we for the most part don't practice what we preach.
Yes, 3rd world countries are horrible. I have traveled and worked in many countries. It's nice to come home after a hard days work to take a bath with clean water, heated even. Pickup my own personal phone and make a call knowing when I pick up that phone that 10 out of 10 times it will work. I also have had to sleep and cook outdoors. Hand wash my clothes with somewhat clean cold water and hope I could get/find food for dinner.
Do I love America? You bet! I would defend it with every drop of my blood but America, is not the only nice place to live. | |
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murdok6100
Avatar. Get It, Avatar?
join:2002-06-20
| Re: Such Thin-Skinned Crybabies! said by kilingspam :
You really need to be clear in stating "another country".
The typical American is brainwashed into thinking every country but the US is a 3rd world country, this is just not true. There are many countries that are wonderful to live in and unlike the US they are truly democratic.
Yes it's true, we for the most part don't practice what we preach.
Yes, 3rd world countries are horrible. I have traveled and worked in many countries. It's nice to come home after a hard days work to take a bath with clean water, heated even. Pickup my own personal phone and make a call knowing when I pick up that phone that 10 out of 10 times it will work. I also have had to sleep and cook outdoors. Hand wash my clothes with somewhat clean cold water and hope I could get/find food for dinner.
Do I love America? You bet! I would defend it with every drop of my blood but America, is not the only nice place to live.
Hey pal, there are people in the USA that live like that every day.
See "Poverty Level"
See "Homelessness"
murdok610 | |
| | | | | | | cableblows3
join:2001-06-17
Indianapolis, IN | you just proved his point, go ahead and get him to shut up | |
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Another brain dead c
@dejazzd.com
| And that was exactly the point which was trying to be shown. People are quickly drawn away from the real issue, that the problems are between the two groups, and they should be dealt with directly. Next thing we know, my city will be losing telephone service because I said some non-flattering thing about government.
Take it all back to where it started. "YESMEN" and Dow. In this sue-happy society, people and entities need to be held responsible for lack of care when bringing legal action. This should slow the frivolity a bit.
There will still be plenty of $$$ for lawyers, not to worry. | |
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JPuppy
Java Heathen
Premium
join:2002-11-24
Honesdale, PA
clubs:
| At first glance, I'd have to agree. I checked out the mirror site, and it's not obvious that it's a parody site. It looks real, and it even has a dow copyright on the bottom of the page. One important aspect for a "parody" to be protected speech is that it must be obvious that it's not the original.
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-Jaded doesn't begin to describe it | |
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cmcgilton
join:2001-03-14
Stow, OH
| Re: Such Thin-Skinned Crybabies! Why couldn't it be a simple as the ISP being ordered to shut down the offending website? Or did the ISP not cooperate? Were they even informed?
In any case after reading the parody website (which there was not one indication it was a parody site) and Dow's real website I have a hard time seeing how there is a defamation of character or libel here, since the information in the website is not directed at one individual specifically.
I'm not sure if The Thing can fight this in court due to money issues. True, there is a copyright violation and the remedy is to eliminate the violator's material and penalize the violator. To completely eliminate service to the ISP itself because of one violator's infringement is wrong. | |
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onsitede
Hot Hot Hot
join:2000-11-24
Broad Brook, CT
clubs: | Re: Such Thin-Skinned Crybabies! The article states that it was after hours and the ISP was unable to be contacted. | |
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jhudson2
Copyright Martyr
join:2000-11-07
San Marcos, CA
| Re: Such Thin-Skinned Crybabies! That's a good point.
Of course, they could have just used poison gas on the ISP. Then they wouldn't have even had to contact them at all.
That would have solved the problem too.
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When a dog howls at the moon, we call it religion. When he barks at strangers, we call it patriotism. - Edward Abbey | |
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jhudson2
Copyright Martyr
join:2000-11-07
San Marcos, CA
| It's pretty obvious to me that the site is a parody. Is it really not obvious to you?
If it was not obvious then I suggest that your lack of appreciation of ironic humor probably doesn't make you the best judge of what is or is not parody. Conversely, if it IS obvious to you that this site is parody then it is equally obvious to me that your complaint about the site is not that someone may have been fooled but that Dow Chemical was made the butt of a pointed, but ultimately harmless joke.
Sounds to me like your issue is that you don't like corporation bashing. Sorry, thats protected speech in the US.
Of course if Dow could show evidence that the parody site was created in a deliberate attempt to cause a decrease in the sales of their popular line of "Industrial Strength Indian Killing Poison Gases" then they would probably have a case.
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When a dog howls at the moon, we call it religion. When he barks at strangers, we call it patriotism. - Edward Abbey | |
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JPuppy
Java Heathen
Premium
join:2002-11-24
Honesdale, PA
clubs:
| Re: Such Thin-Skinned Crybabies! said by jhudson2 :
Sounds to me like your issue is that you don't like corporation bashing. Sorry, thats protected speech in the US.
FU buddy. If you'll re-read my post, you'll see that nowhere did I give any opinion as to the actions of Dow, The Thing, or Verio. I was simply stating that I believe to fall under protected speech, it must be obvious to the average person that this is in fact a parody site.
Do you find the dow copyright on the bottom of the page to be acceptable?
And please, take your elitism somewhere else, it's not appreciated here.
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-Jaded doesn't begin to describe it | |
| | | | | godprince
join:2002-01-03
Vallejo, CA | Re: Such Thin-Skinned Crybabies! since the average person has an IQ of less than 100, which means they can barely think let alone actively realize, such a standard would be the end of parody. | |
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jhudson2
Copyright Martyr
join:2000-11-07
San Marcos, CA
| Nice use of obscenities. Now if you were to actually read MY post the first line was:
NOTE: this is in response to the post by Qumahlin
I wasn't responding to you and after reading your post I can't imagine why you though I was.
But to the point in your response, I think this definition is pretty good:
Question: What is "parody"?
Answer: The courts have defined the word parody in the context of an Internet site. Here's what some of the cases have to say: A "parody" is a "simple form of entertainment conveyed by juxtaposing the irreverent representation of the trademark with the idealized image created by the mark's owner." A parody must "convey two simultaneous--and contradictory--messages: that it is the original, but also that it is not the original and is instead a parody. To the extent that an alleged parody conveys only the first message, "it is...vulnerable under trademark law, since the customer will be confused." While a parody necessarily must engender some intial confusion, an effective parody will diminish the risk of consumer confusion "by conveying [only] just enough of the original design to allow the consumer to appreciate the point of parody."
From »www.chillingeffects.org/protest/···gi#QID88.
Although this might be distilled down to "it must be obvious to the average person" that a page is parody, a more accurate interpretation is that the COURTS decide what parody is - not you, not me and certainly not Dow Chemical just because they have the power and money to bully and intimidate. In the context as described, it was obvious to ME that the site was a parody so the use of Dow's logo was perfectly acceptable.
We seem to have only two choices here: we let the Courts decide issues based on the rule of law or we simply allow giant corporations that answer to no one force their wills upon us.
At the risk of being labelled an "elitist" I think the correct course of action is blindingly obvious.
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When a dog howls at the moon, we call it religion. When he barks at strangers, we call it patriotism. - Edward Abbey | |
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XBL2009
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join:2001-01-03
Chicago, IL | There wouldn't have been a problem if they had clearly marked that the site was indeed a parody.
The Onion is pretty clear that it is parody that's why they haven't had any problems.
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alex4life
Alex4life
Premium
join:2001-06-22
Delta, BC
| Does anyone here think that Verio shutting down all of The Thing was right? I sure don't. What about Dow saying it was good that all those other "unproductive" sites were taken down aswell? How about the fact that because no one was around outside of regular business hours to turn off the offending site, Verio deemed it right to shut off all of The Thing? Is that right?
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I wanna Rock and Roll sometimes, and party once in a while. | |
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pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
·Comcast
| Re: Such Thin-Skinned Crybabies! said by alex4life :
Does anyone here think that Verio shutting down all of The Thing was right?
If you read the article, you'll noticed that many of thing.net's customers were involved in incidents that caused Verio (along with a lot of internet users much grief). Frankly, an ISP tolerating its customers staging a DoS attack on someone (as thing.net did) should have no right to operate in my book. My guess is that this dow-ethics site was the straw that broke the camel's back with regards to Verio. They didn't cut off thing.net because of the DMCA or for any other free speech reasons, but rather they cut them off because they were sick and tired of all of the riff-raff that came from thing.net.
--
DRM == Doesn't Read MP3s | |
| | TechLarry
join:2002-02-02
Fairfax, VA | I think the REAL point is being lost here.
The abuse of the DMCA and it's intended spirit.
Who didn't see it coming? This is not the first such issue with the DMCA to come up.
TL | |
| |
Ex Verio man
@bellsouth.net
| One thing I can tell you, is that Verio's legal dept. has no spine. Find out what damages would be appropriate for the loss of service, sue Verio, and collect with minimal hassle.
Then get the court order to require Verio to honor the original term of your contract. It can, and has, been done several times to Verio. | |
| 
cyberthugin
join:2002-03-12
Kew Gardens, NY | re What ever happened to freedom of speech, it seems big business is trying to shut down people's voices when it knows it they did something wrong. | |
| |
See 7 replies to this post | |
ChicagoCPA
join:2001-12-02
Mokena, IL
| You gotta to be kidding So if Dellhost, provides webhosting service to some nut and he violates the DMCA Verio would cut off their bandwidth if they acted too slowly to shut down the offending site?
I think this is a case of dumping the thing as they don't like "The Thing". I don't see anything wrong with dumping them, as long as there are other providers with equivalent services available. If there are not or they "blackball" the thing in such a way as they go out of business ....then they are out of line. | |
| | 
grunteled
Puffy And Prickly
Premium
join:2001-06-13
Kansas City, MO
clubs:
| Re: You gotta to be kidding said by ChicagoCPA :
So if Dellhost, provides webhosting service to some nut and he violates the DMCA Verio would cut off their bandwidth if they acted too slowly to shut down the offending site?
I think this is a case of dumping the thing as they don't like "The Thing". I don't see anything wrong with dumping them, as long as there are other providers with equivalent services available...
I think you are correct. Verio is tired of fighting off angry lawyers on account of "The Thing". That is the reason they have terminated the relationship. They have every right to do so. However they should consider that their actions are receiving some publicity and that if I were a potential customer I would not be willing to pay my money to company that performs the Net version of carpet bombing an entire ISP over the actions of one customer.
There were other much more acceptable means of shutting down the site than to just cut the cable on the whole operation. That was rash, and un-called for given the circumstances. I hope that choice comes back to bite them (Verio). I don't even think the DMCA shields this action; it does not call for you to madly start cutting cables if the operator can't be reached one night after-hours. Once again, a decision well within their rights, but massively imprudent. | |
| 
KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK
 ·AT&T Yahoo
·AT&T DSL Service
·Cox HSI
·AT&T Southwest
|  This is only the beginning of DMCA abuse
And this is a *classic* example of that prediction coming true. Is Dow's complaint really that it is protecting the copyright of it's logo or style of website?
Hell, no. It's using that as cover to crush information it doesn't like. To silence dissent, if you will... and Verio is taking the cop-out because they don't want any "hassles".
So what in effect do we have? Corporate censorship. Using a COPYRIGHT LAW. What a load of crap.
The precedent is now set: Information will not be allowed to flow on the Internet. Only propaganda, sanitized, spin-doctored and PR approved information will be tolerated.
Great. Welcome to the future.
DEATH TO THE D.M.C.A.
--
"When the day comes that anyone can bend our country’s laws and lawmakers to serve selfish, competitive ends, that day democratic government dies" -- Preston Tucker, 1948 (Yep, it's dead.) | |
| | 
MrTangent
join:2001-12-28
Earth
| Re: This is only the beginning of DMCA abuse said by KrK :
Sometimes, I hate being right. I've been dead set against the DMCA since before it was even passed (First heard about it in 1998). The law is unconstitutional in several regards, and it was widely predicted that it would quickly be abused in order to not really protect copyright, but to censor and silence critics and opposition, people who can't afford millions of dollars for lawyers and legal expenses fighting large interests...
And this is a *classic* example of that prediction coming true. Is Dow's complaint really that it is protecting the copyright of it's logo or style of website?
Hell, no. It's using that as cover to crush information it doesn't like. To silence dissent, if you will... and Verio is taking the cop-out because they don't want any "hassles".
So what in effect do we have? Corporate censorship. Using a COPYRIGHT LAW. What a load of crap.
The precedent is now set: Information will not be allowed to flow on the Internet. Only propaganda, sanitized, spin-doctored and PR approved information will be tolerated.
Great. Welcome to the future.
DEATH TO THE D.M.C.A.
Amen. Put the (anti) Patriot Act, Homeland Security Act, Total Information Awareness, Digital Rights Management, Palladium, RIAA, MPAA, etc. in with the "Death To" pile.
--
"All timid men who prefer the calm of despotism to the boisterous sea of liberty" - Thomas Jefferson | |
| | | 
Shipon
Roflcopter
Premium
join:2001-12-05
Anaheim, CA
| Re: This is only the beginning of DMCA abuse said by MrTangent :
said by KrK :
Sometimes, I hate being right. I've been dead set against the DMCA since before it was even passed (First heard about it in 1998). The law is unconstitutional in several regards, and it was widely predicted that it would quickly be abused in order to not really protect copyright, but to censor and silence critics and opposition, people who can't afford millions of dollars for lawyers and legal expenses fighting large interests...
And this is a *classic* example of that prediction coming true. Is Dow's complaint really that it is protecting the copyright of it's logo or style of website?
Hell, no. It's using that as cover to crush information it doesn't like. To silence dissent, if you will... and Verio is taking the cop-out because they don't want any "hassles".
So what in effect do we have? Corporate censorship. Using a COPYRIGHT LAW. What a load of crap.
The precedent is now set: Information will not be allowed to flow on the Internet. Only propaganda, sanitized, spin-doctored and PR approved information will be tolerated.
Great. Welcome to the future.
DEATH TO THE D.M.C.A.
Amen. Put the (anti) Patriot Act, Homeland Security Act, Total Information Awareness, Digital Rights Management, Palladium, RIAA, MPAA, etc. in with the "Death To" pile.
Oh, yes. The government deserves no less than death because of what they are trying to pull on the innocent public. We have Congress to thank for turning America into a semi-Fascist state.
I would enjoy seeing their terrorist organizationscompanies go down in flames for paying off Congress to enact these horrid laws.
Censorship is evil in all forms; people should be allowed to say what they want without fear of imprisonment.
If this continues, I will have no sympathy for the government if a revolution comes(which, of course, will mean that Congress will be the first against the wall).
Call me crazy; call me un-patriotic; call me an anarchist if you will, but I hate it when something tries to police human nature.
--
OC Forum: They have overclocking, I have overblabbing. | |
| | | | | | | | | mc5w
join:2002-06-14
Independence, OH
| Re: This is only the beginning of DMCA abuse
When Phyllis Schlafly went around saying that the Equal Rights Amendment would lead to all kinds of legal perversions, she was absolutely right. A lot of companies think that the so called anti-discrimination laws say that they have to hire the person with the most experience, which is the worst kind of discrimination. As far as I am concerned, Martin Luther King Junior was a capitalist for the big whiter-than-Teamsters unions such as IBEW and UAW. Those two outfits get like twice as much money for their electricians as does Teamsters and they have the banks and bonding companies scared into believing that only they can handle big bucks projects. | |
| 
ROCINANTE 2112
Original Member 007
join:1999-06-29
Hartsdale, NY
clubs:
| Catchy title I see why Dow sued and I don't blame them. The parody site is subtle, and can mislead people into believing that it IS a Dow site.
However, if thousands of Americans were killed in a chemical accident instead of third world people, the company would rightfully lose billions in suits. I guess it's ok (with Dow) to kill thousands of people around the world and ignore them for the most part.
--
CRUNCH THIS!
| |
| |
KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK
·AT&T Yahoo
·AT&T DSL Service
·Cox HSI
·AT&T Southwest
| Re: Catchy title said by ROCINANTE 2112 :
I see why Dow sued and I don't blame them. The parody site is subtle, and can mislead people into believing that it IS a Dow site.
However, if thousands of Americans were killed in a chemical accident instead of third world people, the company would rightfully lose billions in suits. I guess it's ok (with Dow) to kill thousands of people around the world and ignore them for the most part.
They shouldn't sue under a copyright violation, in any case. They just chose the DMCA angle because of the provisions to force the ISP to immediately censor the material. This will become the new method. Rather then fight a legitimate legal case with the Defense rightfully using the 1st Amendment, now you'll see quick strikes at destroying the sites by filing a "DMCA Violation" charge. ISP's will be required to pull down content without any say of the content owner or face big legal bills themselves fighting to prove they aren't liable.... Most will fold up like wet paper bags, Free speech rights be damned!
--
"When the day comes that anyone can bend our country’s laws and lawmakers to serve selfish, competitive ends, that day democratic government dies" -- Preston Tucker, 1948 (Yep, it's dead.) | |
| | | 
martissimo
join:2001-12-01
Las Vegas, NV
clubs:
| Re: Catchy title ya know i would generally agree that most parody sites are not copyright issues, but when combined with the use of the Dow logo (which i'm sure is trademarked) and the last line of the parody site that says "Copyright © The Dow Company "...that it does become a bit of a copyright case, these guys took their parody a little too far, you can't falsely claim the parody material is copyrighted by the company you are parodying and expect to not get some repercussions.
i'm no DMCA fan by any means, the thing is definitely so loosely worded that it can be abused, but in this case i would say that it's actually somewhat applicable | |
| | | Beeper
Part Of The Problem
join:2001-09-27
Dayton, OH
clubs:
| said by KrK :
Free speech rights be damned!
The constitution ensures that the government won't abridge free speech.
That's it.
--
Guaranteed Fear and Loathing. Abandon all hope. Prepare for the Weirdness. Get familiar with Cannibalism. | |
| | | | | | | | | Beeper
Part Of The Problem
join:2001-09-27
Dayton, OH
clubs:
| Re: Catchy title said by KrK :
Isn't the D.M.C.A. (a law enacted by government) being used to abridge free speech? If so, it means the D.M.C.A. is unconstitutional and must go.
Abridge free speech? Hardly.
DMCA will be around until it gets replaced by a more stringent law in the future.
Certain small elements may be found unconstitutional, and be stuck down. This is par for the course with any legislation.
One thing that should be troubling about the not guilty verdict in the Elcomsoft case is that the jury found that the law had not been broken, and not that the law was invalid. Skylarov is free, but the moral of the story is that DMCA is OK.
--
Guaranteed Fear and Loathing. Abandon all hope. Prepare for the Weirdness. Get familiar with Cannibalism. | |
| 
Spectral
Hates Acl's
Premium
join:2002-05-03
Silverton, OR
clubs:
| I would have to wonder The site has to be an obvious parody to be protected, not an impersonation. Not that I'm any big fan of Dow and certainly not the DMCA, but I would have to wonder what problems Verio has had with The Thing in the past. As much fun as knee-jerk responses are, for all we know this is the latest in a long string of problems they have caused for Verio and was just the last straw.
p.s Not that I still don't think its a crock they shut them down, but I think on the bright side what fun they can cause when they are hosted in Europe with no pesky fascist DMCA bs lol.
--
"Flying
There is an art, or rather a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."~Douglas Adams
[text was edited by author 2002-12-31 13:37:35] | |
| |
pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
·Comcast
| Re: I would have to wonder said by Spectral :
The site has to be an obvious parody to be protected, not an impersonation.
But if you look at the site, it doesn't say anything about it being a parody or a joke. Almost every other parody site I've seen makes it very clear (usually by a line near the bottom of the page that says "This site is in no way affiliated with company XXXXX"). The site, to the casual observer, looks like it would be an official Dow site, especially if the site's owners sent out a mass email claiming to represent Dow. These actions have always been illegal even before the DMCA.
My guess is that this situation may have been the straw that broke the camel's back with regards to thing.net, especially since Verio had some significant problems with their other clients as pointed out by the article. They probably decided to say "screw this" and cut it off for good.
--
DRM == Doesn't Read MP3s
[text was edited by author 2002-12-31 13:43:51] | |
|
jose3030
Premium
join:1999-08-17
Manassas, VA
| The Thing . Net If there are a lot of problems w/ a customer - you notify them repeatedly - and they dont act / react.
Then you take them off completely -
Is that bad?
I see this more or less like a cat and mouse game, and Verio's abuse department gets a lot of grief (not fairly) , due to the size of the network and the amount of abuse issues that come in - .
Do I agree w/ how things were done? No.
Do I think Thing.net is totally in the clear. No.
It's a tough situation. Bad press for everyone, but in a year, we're probably not gonna be talking about "Thing.Net's ISP woes", and more like a war on Iraq. | |
| | | | |
jose3030
Premium
join:1999-08-17
Manassas, VA
| Re: The Thing . Net I once had Amazon.com telling me over the phone that I needed to shut somebody down because someone was re-selling Amazon.com gift certificates. ($50 certificates for $45) on my network.
I was like... I cant do that man.
Abuse of power is a wonderful thing, isnt it? | |
| | | | bmn
? ? ?
Premium,ExMod 2003-06
join:2001-03-15
hiatus
| Re: The Thing . Net said by jose3030 :
I once had Amazon.com telling me over the phone that I needed to shut somebody down because someone was re-selling Amazon.com gift certificates. ($50 certificates for $45) on my network.
Interesting... I'm trying to figure how this guy was actually making money. Inflated shipping charges ?!
--
root by day... raver by night...
fluorine.org : GPL != truly free software | |
| | | | |
jose3030
Premium
join:1999-08-17
Manassas, VA | Re: The Thing . Net Double checked my notes.
I went back to the offending website, and it's up, but just not selling the Amazon.com gift certificates anymore.
I wonder how Amazon.com got to find out about it?
Weird. | |
| 
quientus
So Red Shoes
Premium
join:2000-08-11
San Jose, CA | #@%# This is wrong, smacking small isps because dow knows they dont have the money to hire lawyers 
I hope the EFF gets involved!
--
What would Scooby Doo? | |
| 
richk_1957
If ..Then..Else
Premium
join:2001-04-11
Minas Tirith
| I AM REALLY PISSED If I make any errors here, it's because that I haven't actually seen the paraody web site
BUT
The things I have been able to get from other posts/info is that 1. DOW lawyers contacted The Thing late after hours,
and demanded they take down the offending site
imeadiatly
Ok first thing, when you have to do business with a company [any kind] you usually do it M-F. 9-5. And is what ever happened to due process of the law? A lawyer[s] file a complaint to an offending individual, and his lawyer[s] get to respond. Both get a say in the matter.Didn't happen here.
2. Now verio wants to plug the plug on The Thing for
good.
Why? The offending web site is down, so what's their bitch?
They've hosted contreversial stuff before, so what's their motive?
And finally [here's where I could be off base, I haven't seen the site]. What's wrong with a parody website? If they aren't doing anything malicious, they say somewhere that they say that they are a parody web site [most of the ones I have seen do] Maybe they are putting info up there that they want to hide, or something. Then the big company, with
a huge legal budget gets what they want.
Want to bet if some else started bad mouthing me on the web, I went to court with it [I would talk to them first],
I would get laughed right out of court.
The DMCA is to broad, can be interpreted to many ways, that it does more harm than good. And big companies, that do something bad & want to hide can do just that. Hide behind a broad interpretation of the DMCA
What a New Years gift
But if we don't watch out, this may be a harbringer of things to come. | |
| |
pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
·Comcast
| Re: I AM REALLY PISSED said by richk_1957 :
Ok first thing, when you have to do business with a company [any kind] you usually do it M-F. 9-5.
So when your internet connection goes down at 5:01pm on Friday, you will wait till 9am on Monday to call your ISP? I don't think the time at which Dow contacted Verio is relevant here.
said by richk_1957 :
Why? The offending web site is down, so what's their bitch?They've hosted contreversial stuff before, so what's their motive?
The linked article says that Verio has had previous problems with customers of thing.net before, one problem concerned a DoS attack launched from there a few years ago. My guess is that Verio is sick of thing.net's antics and just wants them to be someone else's problem.
said by richk_1957 :
And finally [here's where I could be off base, I haven't seen the site]. What's wrong with a parody website? If they aren't doing anything malicious, they say somewhere that they say that they are a parody web site
Go look at the site and tell me immediately if you can tell if it is a parody. People will always have the right to publish materials that parody and/or criticize others. The dow-ethics site makes no such claims, unlike this site and this site, both of which are highly critical of Dow. The linked article states that the site owners sent out spam which claimed to be from the real Dow. The dow-ethics site is not indicative of a parody, but more of a case of the site owners claiming to be someone they are not, which has always been illegal.
--
DRM == Doesn't Read MP3s | |
| russotto
join:2000-10-05
Collegeville, PA
| Don't blame the DMCA The DMCA is not to blame here. Verio's craven toadying is to blame. The Netcom decision, and the DMCA itself -- 17 USC 512(a) -- shield Verio from liability for merely providing bandwidth. This section of the DMCA doesn't even have a takedown provision. | |
| |
pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
·Comcast
| Re: Don't blame the DMCA said by russotto :
The DMCA is not to blame here. Verio's craven toadying is to blame.
Agreed, its always been illegal for anyone to misrepresent themselves as another entity, whether on the web or not. A casual user would probably not thing of the site in question as a parody. This site, on the other hand, while using the same "look and feel" as the original, makes it very clear that it is a parody. There's no way you could browse that site and think it was the original, which is why it can't be taken down.
--
DRM == Doesn't Read MP3s | |
| | sago
join:2001-12-19
| The idea here is to stop the pollution of the environment; the purpose is supposed to be to raise people's awareness that there is a threat to the environment coming from many places - certainly any company that manufactures chemicals has the potential to pollute the environment; that is why it is good to have some sort of oversight, some sort of check and balance, some way of double-checking to make sure that individuals who live near or work at chemical plants aren't being poisoned to death, as has been the case before.
How a website such as the one this article is about does anything to stop the pollution of the environment is beyond me - it is an attack, a specific, rhetorical attack on one organization, a well-known name with a bad reputation. There are thousands of other companies polluting the environment all over the globe.
The solution to end the pollution and the harm done from that pollution has to start with the individual; each individual needs to take responsibility for their own future. If people start growing their own food, if people avoid harsh chemical solutions and use old-fashioned solutions - whether it be cleaning products, or transportation methods, they are making a small dent in the demand for harsh chemical solutions.
When the demand for 'better living through chemistry' decreases, the pollution of the environment from those chemicals will also decrease.
The surest way to live a clean and healthy life is to move to an area where there is less pollution, to grow your own food, to plant fruit and nut trees, to get lots of exercise, eat a healthy diet, and to be happy and enjoy life. Complaining is bad for your health, actually.
Creating websites like the one this article is about, unfortunately, is not going to do anything to solve the problem. If you have time to complain you are not doing everything you can to solve the problem.
People need to be really careful with placing blame - think about it - a significant percentage of the population goes on oblivious to any kind of environmental crusade, because they don't see pollution affecting their lives. So even within the 'environmental activist' community, there is a significant percentage of individuals who like to 'place blame', as if that solved the problem. We need to raise awareness about the ineffectiveness of placing blame. Placing blame by itself does nothing beneficial to anyone. Furthermore, if someone thinks their freedom of speech includes the freedom to place blame on anyone, anytime, anywhere that is most convenient for them, they should be held responsible for their accusations. Placing blame always does more damage to everyone involved than it solves anything. People who place blame are polluting other's mental environments, and that is wrong too. I think it would do some members of the environmental activism community a lot of good to raise their own awareness of the ins and outs of placing blame on others. People make mistakes, and when you place blame, your mistakes hurt others.
If you want to make a change in the world, plant a garden. Show kindness to your fellow human beings, and other carbon-based life forms. I think we can get much further through calm cooperation.
The principle of what has happened here shows how a concern for the environment can be turned around and get negative publicity for the environmental movement. It is too bad, really, because pollution really can be a problem sometimes.
[text was edited by author 2003-01-01 18:11:03] | |
| | |
alex4life
Alex4life
Premium
join:2001-06-22
Delta, BC | Re: Another angle But is that the real issue? How about all the other sites that got taken down because The Thing couldn't respond fast enough outside of normal business hours?
--
I wanna Rock and Roll sometimes, and party once in a while. | |
|
Shipon
Roflcopter
Premium
join:2001-12-05
Anaheim, CA
| The DMCA is BS Well, here it is. The 1st amendment has just been violated by lawyers. It's the end of Free Speech as we know it(and I DON'T feel fine).
This is why the DMCA is unconstitutional. If the Founding Fathers were here, they would bust some Congressional heads.
--
OC Forum: They have overclocking, I have overblabbing. | |
| | 
feek
join:2002-01-23
Philadelphia, PA | Re: The DMCA is BS what's new? | |
|
pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD | I wonder...
--
DRM == Doesn't Read MP3s | |
| | Dave_L_H
join:2002-11-16
Vallejo, CA
| Re: I wonder... said by sago :
The idea here is to stop the pollution of the environment; the purpose is supposed to be to raise people's awareness that there is a threat to the environment coming from many places - certainly any company that manufactures chemicals has the potential to pollute the environment; that is why it is good to have some sort of oversight, some sort of check and balance, some way of double-checking to make sure that individuals who live near or work at chemical plants aren't being poisoned to death, as has been the case before.
How a website such as the one this article is about does anything to stop the pollution of the environment is beyond me - it is an attack, a specific, rhetorical attack on one organization, a well-known name with a bad reputation. There are thousands of other companies polluting the environment all over the globe.
The solution to end the pollution and the harm done from that pollution has to start with the individual; each individual needs to take responsibility for their own future. If people start growing their own food, if people avoid harsh chemical solutions and use old-fashioned solutions - whether it be cleaning products, or transportation methods, they are making a small dent in the demand for harsh chemical solutions.
When the demand for 'better living through chemistry' decreases, the pollution of the environment from those chemicals will also decrease.
The surest way to live a clean and healthy life is to move to an area where there is less pollution, to grow your own food, to plant fruit and nut trees, to get lots of exercise, eat a healthy diet, and to be happy and enjoy life. Complaining is bad for your health, actually.
Creating websites like the one this article is about, unfortunately, is not going to do anything to solve the problem. If you have time to complain you are not doing everything you can to solve the problem.
People need to be really careful with placing blame - think about it - a significant percentage of the population goes on oblivious to any kind of environmental crusade, because they don't see pollution affecting their lives. So even within the 'environmental activist' community, there is a significant percentage of individuals who like to 'place blame', as if that solved the problem. We need to raise awareness about the ineffectiveness of placing blame. Placing blame by itself does nothing beneficial to anyone. Furthermore, if someone thinks their freedom of speech includes the freedom to place blame on anyone, anytime, anywhere that is most convenient for them, they should be held responsible for their accusations. Placing blame always does more damage to everyone involved than it solves anything. People who place blame are polluting other's mental environments, and that is wrong too. I think it would do some members of the environmental activism community a lot of good to raise their own awareness of the ins and outs of placing blame on others. People make mistakes, and when you place blame, your mistakes hurt others.
If you want to make a change in the world, plant a garden. Show kindness to your fellow human beings, and other carbon-based life forms. I think we can get much further through calm cooperation.
The principle of what has happened here shows how a concern for the environment can be turned around and get negative publicity for the environmental movement. It is too bad, really, because pollution really can be a problem sometimes.
[text was edited by author 2003-01-01 18:11:03]
said by pnh102 :
If any of these people who are criticizing Dow have FTTH which was made by Dow Corning? Hmm... you better stop using it right now!
i agree i am part of a flammable liquid/gas training class at a chevron refinery in calf, and every few months a large number of enviromentalist drive to chevron(on a road made of steel concreate and asphalt) park in chevrons public parking lot(again concreate steel and asphalt) get out of their cars(most of which came by themselves in very old polluting cars) i always find this funny cuz these ppl drive some of the most polluting cars, they do not car pull and they use a vast amount of oil based products to go down and protest the production of it oil.
i also agree verio termination was a little harsh(even if the isp is a haven for ppl to launch illegal or improper behavior)
now where i don't agree is dow did not do anything wrong they have every right to say shut them down now i know sbc is open 24/7(even new years day when i had a problem) so why isn't the thing, because they want to be difficult to reach and they support the activities of their clients. the things pushed verio to far and they got burned right or wrong they got burned | |
| gatzdon
join:2002-10-25
Lake Zurich, IL
| Let's complain about the real issue As far as the web page is concerned, they are guilty of trademark dilution and it sucks to be them. They failed to provided the standard disclaimer "Not affiliated with DOW etc...". Someone could (and did) deeplink to their site and fool the visitor into thinking it was Dow's site. Personally, I thought the site was hilarious and addresses the obvious problems with companies like Dow. Accidents happen, but they need to respond to them to minimize the damage.
The Union Carbide issue aside, the real problem here is the actions of Verio. They, without being served an injunction, decided to on their own merit based on a letter received from Dow's lawyers, to disable The Thing's access to the internet through them. Was this the faults of the due process procedures in the DMCA? Did Verio pull the plug because they feared the retributions allowed for in the DMCA?
Now for the real question. If a small WISP subscriber manages to setup his own little site with free music to download. The WISP accesses the internet through Worldcom's backbone. Can the RIAA threaten worldcom into shutting down the WISP until the WISP manages to shutdown the subscriber? It's not like the small ISP affects Worldcom's bottom line and Worldcom's doesn't need any added expense of even paying a lawyer to respond to the RIAA.
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Just because I am paranoid, doesn't mean they aren't out to get me! | |
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MrHalloween
@dsl.gen | everyone should send an email to the Verio We all should email Verio and tell them how we feel, as members of the internet, about this abuse and misuse of the dmca | |
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windridr
Premium
join:2002-12-17
Bridgeton, NJ
| Read You TOS Well, I am not sure how closely any of you read your terms of service that your ISP has, but most of them give the ISP the right to terminate your service for any excuse they want. Right or wrong from the user stand-point that is the way of the world. Just another way to CYA for the ISP. Each of us that post a website takes the chance of offending someone. If that someone complains then you may lose your site and access from that provider. The bigger the complainer the bigger the chance to lose it all.
This is just my opinion. | |
| KosovarRebel
join:2002-10-19
Sugar Land, TX
| dsnbfg Just a note: »www.bhopal.net/mergerinfo2.html
Dow was one of the principal manufacturers of Agent Orange to which millions of Vietnamese people were exposed during the war. They also make napalm | |
| | Dave_L_H
join:2002-11-16
Vallejo, CA
| Re: dsnbfg And of course the us. gov did not have to use agent orange, and whats so bad about napalm do you have any idea how many us soilders have been saved by close air strikes and napalm bombs laying down walls of burning flame. i for one am glade my dad made it back for veitnam since i'm only 21, and if a few viet cong died horrible flaming deaths to save him then so be it | |
| 
Googled
Yay, I have FIOS
join:2001-08-13
Orchard Park, NY | Plenty more where that came from There are tons of DOW chemical parody sites out there, but from looking at them it is clear they they focus on some sort of contamination and the deaths of an estimated 2000 workers in Bhopal, India. | |
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huntml
join:2002-01-23
Mullica Hill, NJ
·Comcast
| As simple as a TOS/AUP violation? Let me start by saying that I think that what Verio did in pulling the plug on The Thing was chicken-hearted (for want of an earthier term). It was wrong to cut off the entire ISP for the sake of the actions of one of its clients, when the ISP had made good-faith efforts to respond appropriately to a third-party complaint.
In terms of what Verio was legally entitled to do, though, and even in terms of what Verio's lawyers might have suggested as its best course, I am not sure my opinion of Verio's actions is quite so negative.
It appears to me from my reading of the TOS of The Thing (»isp.thing.net/) and the Verio AUP(»www.verio.net/company/policies/aup.cfm) that The Thing's TOS allows its clients behaviors that would not be allowed under the Verio AUP. In particular, in this case, the Verio AUP has a pretty strong intellectual-property clause which would seem to prohibit the sort of usage of Dow trademarks (without *clear* parody labeling to invoke fair use) that the Yes Men employed. The Thing's TOS, to my reading, contains no such prohibitive language.
So it appears to me that the Yes Men's site was in violation of Verio's AUP, but not necessarily in violation of The Things! How does such a situation play out legally? Of course, we don't know whether Verio had a TOS in its contract to supply service to The Thing which differs significantly from the one posted on Verio's site; but I would imagine that, as Verio's justification for pulling the plug on The Thing is most likely a TOS violation (what else could it be?), Verio must have felt that there was something in its TOS with The Thing giving them the authority to withdraw from supplying service to The Thing.
Here are the questions I have, then. As a customer of Verio, would The Thing be necessarily be bound by Verio's published AUP? *Could* The Thing be held by Verio to be in violation of the TOS if The Thing published an AUP which allowed its customers to behave in manners violating the Verio AUP? And if, after all this happened, Verio didn't come down hard on The Thing, could they have any exposure to legal action from Dow, on the basis that one of their re-selling clients had a published TOS which allowed for intellectual property infringement, and they did nothing to correct that client's terms of re-sale? Seems likely to me, but I'd appreciate hearing from someone who knows the law here.
[text was edited by author 2003-01-01 11:55:54] | |
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kmlkmlklx
@dsl.gen | Not applicable Um...the First Amendment does not apply to private businesses. If this is done at the ISP level, then there is no recourse under the 1st Amendment. Maybe under terms of service. | |
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