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ISPs Make Comparison Shopping Difficult
Asked for a price quote up front recently?

David Lazarus at the Los Angeles Times concisely explores one of the broadband and TV industry's more annoying traits -- their unwillingness to tell you what the full cost of service will be up front. All you'll usually get is your promotional rate, after which the TV operator or ISP piles on a long list of taxes and fees. Ask your ISP to pre-calculate your total up front and you'll usually get some kind of flimsy excuse, notes Lazarus. Verizon tells Lazarus that's just how it is:

quote:
Jon Davies, a Verizon spokesman, said the company's sales reps aren't being deliberately evasive when it comes to taxes and fees. They're just making sure potential customers have been offered every possible option and add-on before a final price can be given. "We have to build the order to see what the customer is going to get before we can give a final price," Davies said. "We need to make sure they're aware of everything that's available."
Of course an example customer in the piece who just wants a base package can't get his price upfront either. Not only does the tactic give the company ample time to upsell a user, it makes comparison shopping more difficult by not letting users just call up and get a quick quote. Meanwhile, as we've long explored, many of those tacked on fees are completely bogus -- and exist simply to impose rate hikes without having to change the advertised price. That last tactic has been ignored by sleeping regulators for years.

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newview
Ex .. Ex .. Exactly
Premium Member
join:2001-10-01
Parsonsburg, MD

newview

Premium Member

Difficult? More like impossible.

Bait and switch, without the bait . . . what a scam.
Dodge
Premium Member
join:2002-11-27

Dodge

Premium Member

Re: Difficult? More like impossible.

said by newview:

Bait and switch, without the bait . . . what a scam.
A scam is not even a word for it, and verizon is king of it. My wireless bill (not exactly what is discussed in the story, but still) went from $160 service price to $200 actual bill after all the fees were added.

Camelot One
MVM
join:2001-11-21
Bloomington, IN

1 recommendation

Camelot One

MVM

Re: Difficult? More like impossible.

For phone, tv, and wireless service, I agree with you completely. But my Verizon Fios, advertised at $69.99 per month, charges my debit card exactly $69.99 per month. No extra taxes, fees, or anything else. When I had AT&T DSL, the charge each month was exactly the advertised rate. (once I went dry loop that is)

So lets call it a phone/tv/wireless issue, but the internet side seems to be pretty up front about the price. And at least in the case of Fios, the "up to" is even legit.

FreedomBuild
Well done is better than well said
Premium Member
join:2004-10-08
Rockford, IL

FreedomBuild to Dodge

Premium Member

to Dodge
I concur with an average of 30% over the 'base' price after fees, taxes, taxed taxes & taxed fees...but, out of all the greedy big corps. Verizon has been the most fair, prompt and courteous in settling disputes, getting discount applied and even getting a break when I went 30 minutes over last month. I called up and explained I went over in dealing with my silly Bank/Intuit support with many disconnects and such. Apparently there is like an emergency 200 extra minutes I could apply. News to me and saved myself 30 bucks.

joako
Premium Member
join:2000-09-07
/dev/null

joako to newview

Premium Member

to newview
Cable TV is easy. Try calling the propane gas delivery companies.

spewak
R.I.P Dadkins
Premium Member
join:2001-08-07
Elk Grove, CA
·Consolidated Com..

spewak

Premium Member

Asking questions

One learns to ask all the right questions when one has changed ISP's or Cable operators several times. It is quite a lengthy list of questions to be sure. I tend to land squarely in the middle on this one. Sometimes it is the consumers fault, and sometimes it is the ISP or cable operators fault.
LeeWL
join:2002-11-10
Morrisville, NC

LeeWL

Member

Re: Asking questions

Yeah, when calling, I just ask the rep to tell me how much the check to them needs to be each month to satisfy my bill. I remind them that I am taking notes and I have already written down the date and time of the call as well as their name. This works best over an agent chat, where you can email it to yourself and you do not have to listen to them hem and haw about it.

If they still will not give me a number or if it looks like what I think is an unrealistic number, I then tell them that I need them to say back to me that they are unwilling to cooperate and give me, a potential customer, the total cost of service so that I can decide to do business with them. SIcne their calls are recorded they will eventually just give it to you.
Mr Matt
join:2008-01-29
Eustis, FL

1 edit

Mr Matt

Member

Universal Telecommunications Scam.

What David Lazarus has revealed is the universal Telecommunications scam. This scam affects all telecommunication subscribers. These below line charges were first enabled by the FCC when the FCC allowed telephone companies to charge subscribers a Customer Access Line Charge. It was created for the local telephone companies, to make up the part of the long distance revenue shared by AT&T with local telephone companies before the break up of the Bell System.

The CALC Charge was initially set at $0.50 for the first line to deceive "The little old ladies in tennis shoes" into not complaining about the new fee. Government regulators believed that a small fee would not raise the wrath of customers with fixed incomes. The CALC charge for a second line was $3.50. The plan was to raise the CALC charge on the first line to $3.50 over a Five Year period and was successful. Initially the CALC charge was regulated by the FCC but eventually it became a non regulated charge.

This was a great deal for the Telephone Companies whose rates were regulated by the State Public Service Commissions. The phone companies could now raise rates by increasing the below line charge outside of control of the States Regulators. Big telecommunication companies have been using the below line charges to scam customers for the last 20 years.

I am surprised that a reporter has not brought up this matter sooner. I am not to optimistic that the situation will change, since the big telecommunication companies are busy paying off lawmakers to maintain the status quo.

Camaro
Question everything
Premium Member
join:2008-04-05
Westfield, MA

1 recommendation

Camaro

Premium Member

Just another check mark

on why consumers need regulation with balls.

KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium Member
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK

KrK

Premium Member

Re: Just another check mark

Can I get an Amen!
Joe12345678
join:2003-07-22
Des Plaines, IL

1 edit

Joe12345678

Member

They don't list modem rent / cabel box rent / add on packs a

They don't list modem rent / cabel box rent / add on packs and more.

Take comcast in Chicago land in parts of the area you need the sports pack to get speed but in others it's in stater. In some areas AMC is in basic others preferred.

also they say Free HD – no HD access fees or HD equipment fees. But in the fine print it said equipment not included in price.

and that free HD is for box 1 only.

So add about $8 per HD box and about $16 Per HD DVR to the promo price + EMTA required ($5/month).

If you need EMTA why is that not in the price?

why can't you buy the cable box like you can with the emta?

comcast also put's non sports channels like fox movie channel and others in the sports pack as well.
clickie8
join:2005-05-22
Monroe, MI

clickie8

Member

Re: They don't list modem rent / cabel box rent / add on packs a

That is my biggest bitch about the pricing. They advertise a price and in the case of Comcast, the damned service won't work without there being extra fees because you need a cablecard or their box.

ArrayList
DevOps
Premium Member
join:2005-03-19
Mullica Hill, NJ

ArrayList to Joe12345678

Premium Member

to Joe12345678
all the reasons I will not go back to cable. there is no reason not to be up front with pricing.

woody7
Premium Member
join:2000-10-13
Torrance, CA

woody7

Premium Member

Re: They don't list modem rent / cabel box rent / add on packs a

satellite is getting just as bad. Been a Dish customer for 10 years, and then all of a sudden they start doing weird billing. thank god for uverse, used them to "tweak" Dish for goodies and not having to sign a contract or pay extra. One of these days I am going to go back to an antenna.

SYNACK
Just Firewall It
Mod
join:2001-03-05
Venice, CA

SYNACK to Joe12345678

Mod

to Joe12345678
said by Joe12345678:

also they say Free HD – no HD access fees or HD equipment fees.
That Free HD is just marketing speak for "If you don't need/want HD, we won't give you any discount, even though you get less".
xenophon
join:2007-09-17

1 recommendation

xenophon

Member

taxes and fees

"said the company's sales reps aren't being deliberately evasive when it comes to taxes and fees."

I was surprised when I got my first Clearwire bill it was a flat $40/month as advertised. No taxes, no fees, no contract, no leased equipment - just $40. And they advertised performance to about 3-6Mbps with peaks to 10 yet I'm averaging 10-15.

Good riddance TWC.

ArrayList
DevOps
Premium Member
join:2005-03-19
Mullica Hill, NJ

ArrayList

Premium Member

Re: taxes and fees

its good to hear that there is still hope in the world.
BlueC
join:2009-11-26
Minneapolis, MN

1 edit

BlueC to xenophon

Member

to xenophon
A lot of people forget about the federal ban on internet access tax. Only a few states have grandfathered exceptions for this, but the majority of the country should not be paying a penny of tax on their internet access.

SimbaSeven
I Void Warranties
join:2003-03-24
Billings, MT
·StarLink

SimbaSeven

Member

Re: taxes and fees

said by BlueC:

A lot of people forget about the federal ban on internet access tax. Only a few states have grandfathered exceptions for this, but the majority of the country should not be paying a penny of tax on their internet access.
I'd be for an Internet Tax if they laid fiber to every home and business no matter where it is.

..but we all know that'll never happen.
BlueC
join:2009-11-26
Minneapolis, MN

BlueC

Member

Re: taxes and fees

Your tax money already goes to the big telcos. How's that working out for ya?
b10010011
Whats a Posting tag?
join:2004-09-07
united state

b10010011

Member

Comparison shopping for ISP's is even more difficult when...

There is no competition!

In my area it's pretty much Comcast or nothing. Sure you can get DSL in some areas (1Mbit max) or Clearwire in some areas (1Mbit?) and satellite (1Mbit?)

None of them are really any competition to 12Mbit cable.
xenophon
join:2007-09-17

xenophon

Member

Re: Comparison shopping for ISP's is even more difficult when...

I'm getting 10-15Mbps on Clearwire and have replaced 7Mbps cable.

Clear doesn't have as much backhaul in the early markets though. Seattle was one of the first markets. You should get a backhaul upgrade but have no idea when - may already have. They were doing below 20Mbps backhaul but are now doing 100Mbps where they can get it and says they'll target 500Mbps in the future.
axiomatic
join:2006-08-23
Tomball, TX

axiomatic

Member

"build the order"

"build the order" !!??!! Ahahahahaha!!!

What are you making there Verizon? A hamburger?

My favorite part is that he is trying to make it sound like there is a great deal of choices offered from his company. Those of us who build and design networks for a living are laughing at you there Verizon.
BlueC
join:2009-11-26
Minneapolis, MN

BlueC

Member

Re: "build the order"

Those of us that understand technology/networks will always have a laugh. Unfortunately, we make up a small minority, and companies like Verizon will continue to address the masses...
hottboiinnc4
ME
join:2003-10-15
Cleveland, OH

hottboiinnc4

Member

TV

The only extras i've seen for TV are Franchise fees and sales tax. that's it. nothing else was added unlike phone providers and their BS fees.
pabster
join:2001-12-09
Waterloo, IA

pabster

Member

They're right about the taxes and fees...

My bill is around $90 but after all the BS ends up closer to $105. And taxes are pretty cheap around here.
paule123
join:2002-07-25
Cleveland, OH

paule123

Member

Another fave of mine is hiding the upload speed

They never like to state upload speed up front in literature or on the web site. The typical 384Kbps - 768Kbps upload is just pathetic. Oh, you want a whole 1M or 2M upload? That pricing starts at $89.99/mo., sir.

And then there's the issue of company A having one set of speed tiers and company B having something just a little bit different, so you can't do a simple speed/price comparison at a glance.

KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium Member
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK
Netgear WNDR3700v2
Zoom 5341J

KrK

Premium Member

This has been my experience as well-- & it could be stopped!

Try going to AT&T or Cox's website and finding out what it will cost per month, final price.

No, on second thought, don't. You'll waste too much time. Needless to say, they don't make it easy, they refuse to give you hardly any information unless you're signing up first (They want you to enter all your information first etc etc) and even they they show you promo rates and rates before all the un-fees.

It's total BS. Trying to compare packages or services is a nightmare. And it's deliberate.

Of Course, Congress could fix it really quickly with a simple law that states the Consumer must be told EXACTLY what the final price will be per month and agree to it IN ADVANCE or else the company must refund all their money, let them cancel with no charges, etf's, etc etc or honor the price quoted if the consumer wishes.

Then this BS would stop but quick. However since Congress is beholden to these companies and not consumers---- it will never happen.
chgo_man99
join:2010-01-01
Sunnyvale, CA

2 edits

chgo_man99

Member

I have wireless service with ATT

I don't have even internet/data plan.

I just have only voice plan $40, $5 text messaging plan and $3 roadside assistance.

Guess whats in "tax fees"?

Credits, Adjustments & Other Charges
Regulatory Cost Recovery Charge 0.68
Federal Universal Service Charge 1.22

IL 911 Surcharge 2.50
Municipal Telecommunications Tax 2.30
State/Municipal Telecommunications Tax 2.30

If I had data plan (I have BB curve grandfathered in data opt out), these taxes would be close to $20.
Happydude32
Premium Member
join:2005-07-16

Happydude32

Premium Member

People need to shut up

And realize it's not so bad.

For me:

Cable Broadband ($0.00 Total Fees)
- $0.00 in additional taxes and fees

Cable TV ($9.29 Total Fees)
- Cable Franchise Fee - $9.21
- Cable FCC Regulatory Fee - $0.08

Cable Telephony ($4.77 Total Fees)
- Cable PSC Fee - $0.08
- Federal Regulatory Recovery Fee - $0.07
- State Regulatory Recovery Fee - $0.31
- LNP Recovery Fee - $0.03
- Telecom Sales Tax - $2.16
- State Telecom Excise Tax - $0.76
- Telecom Universal Service Fund - $0.99
- E-911 Surcharge - $0.35
- Telecom FCC Regulatory Fee - $0.02

Total cable bill for services is $256.35 + $14.06 in fees. I don't think that's too bad.

Cell Phone ($22.81 Total Taxes/Fees)
- Federal Universal Service Assess - $2.69
- State Telecomm Excise Recovery - $2.84
- State Gross Receipts Recovery - $0.34
- Administrative Charge - $2.97
- Regulatory Charge - $1.20
- State Sales Tax - $3.78
- State 911 Tax - $3.60
- County Sales Tax - $4.49
- County 911 - $0.90

Total cell phone bill is $159.98 for rate plan and $22.81 in taxes and fees. Now that is a little high but I have three lines of service and quite a few of these fees are per line.

I don't understand the need for providers to list taxes and government assessed fees in the price. I mean when you go to WalMart and get a DVD from the $5 bin, it's marketed as $5 not the total after taxes. Just one way greedy consumers try to bitch about companies that they have no business bitching about. If a customer or potential customer calls up and inquires about total price after any applicable fees, fine tell them, but no reason to list exact numbers on promotional material. Everytime when I called Time Warner to ask about any additional fees they were pretty much spot on. Only thing they weren't sure on was the franchise fee since the percentage is set by your local towns cable franchise authority and they didn't have the info for my town and they didn't mention the FCC regulatory fee, but at 8 cents, I can live. And other then the Administrative Charge on my Sprint bill, it's not like Time Warner or Sprint keeps any of this extra money. It's collected by the government

KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium Member
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK
Netgear WNDR3700v2
Zoom 5341J

KrK

Premium Member

Re: People need to shut up

Ok Mr. Wealthy ($270 a month for cable.... Really?)

Your numbers don't add up unless you left a bunch out.

As for the rest of your point, this "greedy consumer" likes to shop around and find out a decent offer. Not something you can do when they tell you it's $39.95 a month and then add on 12 line items and surcharges and fees and taxes and then charge you $60 a month.

So you don't care. Money to burn, obviously. If their system can accurately generate a bill every month, then there's absolutely ZERO reason why they can't tell you up front exactly what that bill would be. The same system could tell you, the CSR or anyone else the exact final price TO THE PENNY. Sheesh. Bitching, my ass. Yes, you are.
Happydude32
Premium Member
join:2005-07-16

Happydude32

Premium Member

Re: People need to shut up

What doesn't add up? I copied everything directly from the PDF statements from my bills. And $270 for cable is taking into account zero sports packages. During the months when MLB Extra Innings and NHL Center Ice are in season it's well over $300. And this year I'm probably going to try out ESPN GamePlan for NCAA Football.
PittsPgh
Premium Member
join:2003-08-21
Pittsburgh, PA

PittsPgh to Happydude32

Premium Member

to Happydude32
said by Happydude32:

And realize it's not so bad.

.

I don't understand the need for providers to list taxes and government assessed fees in the price. I mean when you go to WalMart and get a DVD from the $5 bin, it's marketed as $5 not the total after taxes.
But I already know to expect 7% tax on that 5$ DVD. That's a given.
There isn't anything else added on.

Paul

ericn32
meh
Premium Member
join:2009-09-23
Costa Mesa, CA

ericn32 to Happydude32

Premium Member

to Happydude32
I think the real problem is that the tax rates for these services are really hard to find. I can go to the CA Franchise Tax Board and look up the sales tax rate in my city, and I know to expect 8.75% tax on it. I'd probably even be able to ask a store cashier for the rate. However, when it comes to telco or cable video and voice service, few people know the fees to expect. I should be able to ask a CSR what the rate is and get a straight answer right away- does that not seem fair to both the consumer and the service provider?