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story category ISPs Won't Talk To Press About Selling User Browsing Data
Go figure...
(old news - 05:16PM Thursday Apr 10 2008)
tags: business · privacy · networking
We've been talking a lot about behavioral advertising firm NebuAD, who pay ISPs to host deep packet inspection hardware that tracks your browsing activity, including which websites you visit and how long you spend there. The supposedly anonymous data (we discussed this with their CEO last February), is then used to deliver ads more tailored to your interests (by the way, you appear to have an unhealthy obsession with Ralph Macchio).

Click for full size
Aside from the obvious privacy concerns, there's several problems with this model so far. ISPs aren't being clear with their customers that this is going on -- burying the announcement in fine print. Our attempts to discuss these services with ISPs haven't gone well -- most don't want to go on the record. The New York Times hasn't had any better luck:
Peter Smith, the vice president of programming for Wide Open West, declined to comment and declined to say why he was declining to comment...I then called David Burgstahler, a partner of Avista Capital, the private equity firm that owns Wide Open West. He wouldn’t talk to me either. Amanda Heravi, an Avista spokeswoman, said she would see if she could find someone to talk to me, but I haven’t heard back yet.
Comforting! While NebuAD says they have "tens of dozens" of ISP clients, we've so far only identified a handful (Embarq, WOW, Knology and CenturyTel). NebuAD's CEO tells the Times that customers worried about this service can opt-out. But while NebuAD's opt-out system prevents you from getting targeted ads, it doesn't prevent you from having your data collected and sold (the same obviously being true for ad blocking technology).

Of course ISPs have already been selling your clickstream data to websites like Compete for some time (one ISP exec suggests to us they pull in about $5 per subscriber, per month), so the idea of using your browsing history as a revenue stream is not new. But ISPs have been equally silent about that business model.

Related:
  1. Phorm Gets Proactive in Addressing Privacy Concerns
  2. Wide Open West Using NebuAD
  3. Outsourced Comcast Tech Goes Vigilante On Xbox Cheaters
  4. Embarq: Selling User Browsing Data 'Empowers' Users
  5. Monday Evening Links
  6. Wednesday Evening Links
  7. Friday Evening Links
  8. Wednesday Evening Links
Forums » ISPs Won't Talk To Press About Selling User Browsing Data
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SilverSurfer

join:2007-08-19

Same Old Shit

while NebuAD's opt-out system prevents you from getting targeted ads, it doesn't prevent you from having your data collected and sold (the same obviously being true for ad blocking technology).

Sounds identical to the status quo for everything else consumers can opt out of. Opt out is corporate doublespeak for Screw you we're going to sell your data anyway.

root9

join:2005-04-08
Kitchener, ON

Re: Same Old Shit

Since we know this how about We find out their data, all their private stuff and post it? All the gory details too. They have created their own Precedent. Let's see how they like their privacy played with.

If they want out then they can opt-out and stop illegal intrusion at same time.

shoe1

join:2007-09-28
Colfax, CA

Just wrong.

This should be as illegal as wiring tapping, in the US (idk if the article is talking about American ISsP, I don't recognize any listed ISPs). What you do on the internet should be extremely private! Just like your phone calls, even this right is beginning to be thrown out the window in the United states. Just because it's a newer technology with monitoring capabilities does NOT mean your privacy is voided. NO ONE SHOULD EVER MONITOR WHAT YOU DO ON THE INTERNET! The U.S. constitution is there for a reason. If you are to be caught doing something illegal it should proven through a real world encounter, not what some box caching 1s and 0s.

amigo_boy

join:2005-07-22
Tempe, AZ
·Cox HSI
·magicjack.com

Re: Just wrong.

said by shoe1 See Profile :

What you do on the internet should be extremely private! Just like your phone calls,
It's probably a matter of expectations. If I had a party line (telephone) I wouldn't expect "extreme privacy." The internet seems a lot like a party line when I can sniff packets and gain information from people who *freely choose not to use encryption*.

This seems tantamount to using a party line (because it was cheaper) and then complaining that my neighbors are telling my business to others.

Mark

gatorkram
Spelling and Grammer impared
Premium
join:2002-07-22
Winterville, NC
clubs:
·Embarq
·linode

I agree, it should be illegal for them to do this. It should be illegal for them to do anything with our packets, but pass them along to the next router that does the same.

And you can't really opt out, because the moment they start to do it, you are trapped in the system. You might be able to opt out after the fact, but data has already changed hands.

You should need a court order to do this kind of invasion of privacy.
--
Give me bandwidth or give me death!
»/testhistory/661871/4f240
ndwbr

join:2003-07-10
Atlanta, GA
·AT&T Southeast

Ads? what ads?

Don't these people realize? Let me say it again for you: I never click on ads, I never read ads, I never even see ads. I couldn't give a rat's a-- how tailored your ads are to my interests. I run the Mozilla Firefox browser with Adblock and Filterset G Updater add-ons. The only ads I see are on the PC's of people I support who are still using IE, and I'm switching them over one by one.
SilverSurfer

join:2007-08-19

Re: Ads? what ads?

said by ndwbr See Profile :

Don't these people realize? Let me say it again for you: I never click on ads, I never read ads, I never even see ads. I couldn't give a rat's a-- how tailored your ads are to my interests. I run the Mozilla Firefox browser with Adblock and Filterset G Updater add-ons. The only ads I see are on the PC's of people I support who are still using IE, and I'm switching them over one by one.
And so do I but that still doesn't make it OK for ISPs to sell clickstream data.

DiscardedVet
Premium
join:2005-04-06
Sturgis, SD


1 edit

Re: Ads? what ads?

said by ndwbr See Profile :

I never click on ads
You, myself, and people the sort that are DSLR members may not click on ads, but obviously there are thousands and millions of people that do, or there would not be a market for internet advertising outside of one's own domain (ie, I look at TigerDirects ads when I visis there).

Same thing goes with Email spam, obviously, many people are clicking those ads, perpetuating the problem of spam.
--
Bush is the Prez....
Think Patriot Act II....
This outspoken dissident....
In jail I'll be soon.

TKJunkMail
Enjoy the sun
Premium
join:2002-03-03
Avalon, NJ
·Sprint Mobile Broa..
·Comcast


1 edit
said by ndwbr See Profile :

The only ads I see are on the PC's of people I support who are still using IE, and I'm switching them over one by one.
Look into IE7Pro addon for IE. It has an ad blocking element very similar to adblock plus in FF.

»www.ie7pro.com/

I turn off all the features except for the ad blocker. Works very well.
--
My BLOG .. .. Internet News .. .. My Web Page
BigVe

join:2005-07-15
Gulliver, MI
·CenturyLink

said by ndwbr See Profile :

Don't these people realize? Let me say it again for you: I never click on ads, I never read ads, I never even see ads.I run the Mozilla Firefox browser with Adblock and Filterset G Updater add-ons.
Same Here
ross

join:2000-08-16
·Digizip

ISPs Won't Talk To Press About Selling User Browsing Data?

Hell, ISPs won't even talk to their customers about this stuff. I wrote to one of the principals of Digizip, which is my ISP, to inquire if Digizip, or Covad, to his knowledge, had a relationship with Phorm, and/or any other behavioral advertising firm. I asked if my clickstream data was collected and sold, or if my browsing habits were logged and sold, or if they re-sold any information about me at all. I never got a reply...
hoyleysox

join:2003-11-07
Long Beach, CA

good for price competition

ISPs could increase their revenue by selling click data. Then other ISPs could market the fact that they do not sell click data and raise their rates.

Anybody here use google and wonder why they provide a free service?
nasadude

join:2001-10-05
Rockville, MD
·Comcast


1 edit

Re: good for price competition

said by hoyleysox See Profile :

ISPs could increase their revenue by selling click data. Then other ISPs could market the fact that they do not sell click data and raise their rates...
there is not enough competition for this to work. If everyone had a choice of 4 or 5 ISPs, no problem, one of them is bound to forgo doing this for a competitive edge.

Unfortunately, most people only have a choice of two providers and a lot only have a choice of one provider. In those markets the decision is broadband with snooping or dialup, not broadband with snooping or broadband without it.

forgot to ask: you think price competition is charging more because an ISP DOESN'T do something obnoxious?
hoyleysox

join:2003-11-07
Long Beach, CA
·Cox HSI
·Time Warner Cable

Re: good for price competition

Nasadude brings up a fair point: if there is limited competition a user might not have an ISP available that will not share click data.

Let me spin that: I argue that the extra revenue gained by sharing click data could _increase_ competition in neglected areas.

Companies will not provide service in an area if they don't think they can make any money. Add an additional revenue stream and bingo - it becomes easier to recoup costs. The area then becomes more attractive to do business.

If other companies provide lower cost service subsidized by click data revenue, another company may charge slightly more and not sell the click data, but charge more.

It is my understanding that the profit margins for 'mom&pop' wholesale ISPs are razor thin...

birdfeedr
Premium,MVM
join:2001-08-11
Warwick, RI
·Verizon FIOS

Make the data useless...

Use a not-yet-written plug-in that clicks everywhere. Constant stream of randomized root URLs with deeper clicks and random pauses to make it difficult to determine length of visit (or possible interest).

The new social networking site: SharedURLs.com (MyURLs.com is already registered).

So, NebuAd discounts the browsing activity because it showed up on SharedURLs.com

A posting there becomes akin to a malicious attack designed to wreak havoc to the companies bottom line, at least until 90% of the internet's URLs become listed.

Then finally NebuAd folds as being irrelevant.

Meanwhile, ISPs have had to redefine caps and throttles in order to cope with the growing random internet use.

Making a certain number of people say "Screw it. This interweb thing is useless, cancel my service."

Freeing up some bandwidth for those who really don't care if the feds are tracking anyway because "I don't have to worry because I haven't done anything wrong."

------

My point is, it'll always be cat and mouse.

Or to put it another way: It's just a very dynamic thing that will implode when enough people get tired of it. Because the tools will become available to defeat this nonsense.

telcolackey
The Truth? You can't handle the truth

join:2007-04-06
Death Valley, CA

Welcome to the Internet

I have a cookie for you

BLUNTED 1

join:2003-11-13
Floral Park, NY

Re: Welcome to the Internet

This should just be stopped and thats it
hurfy
Premium
join:2002-08-06
Spokane, WA

so i guess...

on odd numbered days i leave my browser sit on the democratic website and even days i am a republican. Gay on saturday and straight on sunday, etc ad nauseum....

Maybe i should turn around and click every third link on the 3rd computer. I wonder what it thinks when i leave it sit on a book info site all night til i finish my lookups tomorrow

I wonder if they correlate my 5 IP addresses or if i have one democratic computer and one republican computer.

lol might be fun to see what you get
but who's ads would we be looking for? like doubleclick or something?

Fortunately i don't think my ISP does any tracking, probably not enough of a user base (and almost all corporate at that) for the ad guys to bother with. Maybe i should call and ask for fun, they are very forthcoming but i hate to bother THE tech guy.
RadioDoc
58ef2c0
Premium,ExMod 2000-03
join:2000-05-11
·AT&T Midwest

Re: so i guess...

Back in the early days of Amazon.com we were buying a lot of different things for different family members--old and young, male and female, with drastically diverse interests--for Christmas. Their tracking and "recommendation" system was keeping up for awhile, but finally barfed.

It's eventual output: "Customers who bought the items in your shopping cart also bought: Underwear".

We broke it.

Could be fun to try this technique with the Nebuads of the world.

CommonSense2008

@bell.ca

ENCRYPT! ENCRYPT! ENCRYPT!

There is no reason that we cannot encrypt 100% of the text that travels over the internet today using SSL/TLS.

With all of this DPI crap webhosts really need to get off their ass and start offering this option more often!

chucky5150
Divers do it Deeper

join:2001-11-03
New Iberia, LA
clubs:

Re: ENCRYPT! ENCRYPT! ENCRYPT!

Only thing is....

what's in it for them?

I'm thinking it'll cost a lot to SSL/TLS everything.

telcolackey
The Truth? You can't handle the truth

join:2007-04-06
Death Valley, CA

Other examples

I'm not trying to say this is good or bad, but many companies look at behavior traits, uses them and profits from the information. Even the local favorites like Tivo, Amazon, Google, etc.

On this issue (as with many others), share the wealth of the blame game.
--
"Believe only half of what you see and nothing that you hear." - Dinah Craik

tc1uscg

join:2005-03-09
Saint Clair Shores, MI

What goes around, doesn't come around

Ok. So, when the cable/HSI bills go up, we are told that it's to "pay for higher costs of programing, so they are passing it on to the customer". But what we don't see is the negotiations behind the scenes for carrying those annoying info-mercials and how MUCH it lowers the overall costs for said carrier. So now, they can not only raise our rates, but also make more money to boot. Not a bit surprised. No angry. Just makes me more determined to ensure I don't see those "popups", killing cookies and using proxy servers as much as possible. Best way I know to fight back.
Mele20
Premium
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI

Blocking Ads Won't Help

You guys don't seem to understand. This is PHYSICAL MAN IN THE MIDDLE ATTACK HARDWARE. Blocking ads or cookies will in no way stop the collection of all your data. ALL DATA FROM ALL USERS is collected ALL THE TIME if Phorm, NebuAD, etc. hardware is sitting within your ISP's network.

Your browser is HIJACKED with special HTML code and sent to a site under the control of Phorm, etc. There, with the possible exception of Safari ONLY, it gets fraudulent cookies, no matter how you have cookies set in the browser, and it gets more html code that redirects the browser to try the request again which then goes through your ISP's network.

Trick code is left in your browser's session which allows Phorm, etc. to track everything you do and intercept anything of interest. There is NO escape other than full encryption or getting a different ISP that isn't doing this and dialup ISPs are not immune to doing this.

This violates the Laws of Identity as stated by Microsoft's Identity guru Kim Cameron, violates the ISP's role in the structure of the Internet, and will cause considerable harm to the Internet if allowed.
»www.identityblog.com/?p=951
--
"The same ferocity that our founders devoted to protect the freedom and independence of the press is now appropriate for our defense of the freedom of the internet. The stakes are the same: the survival of our Republic". Al Gore, The Assault on Reason

Lanik
Lab-nik
Premium,ExMod 2002-03
join:2001-06-25
Bay Area

Re: Blocking Ads Won't Help

And you got proof of this how exactly? Care to share since you seem to think nobody here knows what they are talking about?
--
"If it ain't broke don't fix it."
Mele20
Premium
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI

Re: Blocking Ads Won't Help

»Phorm Performs Illegal Interception - Technology Explained

There's a great deal of information confirming what I wrote. The above thread will give you a start on educating yourself.

Smith6612
Premium
join:2008-02-01
united state

You know...

ISPs should really make this to be an opt-in kind of thing, but if you do opt-in, they should have some kind of incentive that will give you a higher speed than what you have now with no greater cost. Not sure how that will work, but it's an idea.
Warez_Zealot
Rural land of the rising sun

join:2006-04-19
japan

FF equivalent to Track me not addon?

Track me not does random search queries. Is there a FF addon that generates fake http browsing activity?

Ice1121

@verizon.net

WTF are those @$$3$ doing?

Seriously, they're acting like the government, yet they provide no benefits...
Forums » ISPs Won't Talk To Press About Selling User Browsing Data


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