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If You're Waiting on FiOS, You Could Be Waiting a While
30% of Verizon Customers May Wait Years for Upgrades
by Karl Bode 06:32PM Tuesday Jan 24 2012
We've noted often how with the exception of a few major existing franchise obligations, Verizon's FiOS upgrades are essentially over. That means around 40% of Verizon's broadband customers on slower DSL and in a lot of major cities (Boston, Baltimore, Buffalo) are still waiting for next-generation upgrades. The company is now focused on far more profitable wireless ventures (read: no unions, no pensions), and if you're currently stuck on DSL the understanding has been that you can expect it to stay that way -- assuming your market isn't sold off to a smaller phone company.

Click for full size
Verizon's still a little murky on exactly what the next phase of FiOS entails (if there is a next phase). Stacey Higginbotham at GigaOM noticed a few interesting new comments made by Verizon CFO Frank Shammo during today's earnings conference call. According to Shammo, there is going to be a concerted effort this year to upgrade people to FiOS if they're dealing with highly problematic copper lines. Said Shammo on the conference call:
quote:
“So what you’re going to see this year is a very strategic initiative, that we go out and we look at areas where there are chronic copper problems and we start to transform them onto our FiOS network. And the math would say if there is a chronic problem that we have to visit more than two times a year, the actual financial benefit of us transforming that to FiOS pays for itself within that year."
Shammo's comments could give the impression that Verizon wants to single out any and all costly copper repair markets and upgrade those users for cost efficiency's sake, but in a follow up conversation with Verizon we found that's not entirely the case. We're told Shammo was simply saying that in markets where a customer has the choice of both FiOS and DSL, Verizon's going to auto-upgrade DSL users who've had particularly troublesome lines. Shammo's not saying that if you're just out of range that Verizon will try to upgrade you, even if the economics of running fiber are cheaper than copper.

The math would say if there is a chronic problem that we have to visit more than two times a year, the actual financial benefit of us transforming that to FiOS pays for itself within that year.
-Verizon CFO Fran Shammo
"We're leveraging our multi-billion investment in fiber optics, at no additional cost to the consumer, as we begin transitioning customers who've had chronic problems with their copper-based services over to FiOS," Verizon's Bill Kula tells Broadband Reports. According to Kula, as of the end of 2011 Verizon passed (not necessarily served, customers may be just out of range) 16.5 million households with fiber.

The last available statistics show that after selling off a significant chunk of their DSL and landline networks to Frontier, roughly 60% of Verizon's existing broadband footprint is covered by FiOS. That still 40% of Verizon broadband users on DSL at a time when investors are unwilling to wait for the long term returns of further upgrades. Verizon says their goal is to have 70% of their overall broadband footprint covered with FiOS as they reach 18 million homes passed.

The majority of the users that will bump the hopes passed total from 16.5 to 18 million will come from ongoing obligation builds in New York, DC, Philadelphia, and other cities that have signed franchise agreements. However, not all of those users can expect coverage, either. In New York City Verizon's franchise agreement promises they'll cover 100% of the city by 2014, but the agreement fine print allows Verizon to buy or wiggle their way out of that agreement if they're not seeing the kind of TV subscription uptake they'd like.

That still leaves about 30% of Verizon's broadband customers without upgrades, and it remains unclear what happens to them. You still get the sense that Verizon certainly wouldn't be opposed to offloading a few more undesirable markets like they did with Fairpoint and Frontier, though criticism about the more under-handed nature of those slick deals has grown a little loud. Between selling off some additional smaller markets and making piecemeal upgrades, progress for those remaining users may be glacial. If you're in a city like New York where there are franchise obligations

Keep in mind there continues to be concerns that Verizon's new wireless deal with the cable industry includes a gentlemen's agreement that Verizon won't push FiOS into any new cable partner markets beyond their already scheduled build. There has also been some pressure recently by Wall Street for Verizon to fuse with Verizon Wireless and get out of wireline completely, given the higher costs associated with workers who unionize to protect their rights. Whatever happens one thing remains clear: about 30% of Verizon's customer base could be waiting a long time for upgrades.

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guppy_fish
Premium
join:2003-12-09
Lakeland, FL
kudos:3

1 recommendation

And the point of the story is?

And what exactly is the news here?

Verizon said from day one, the plan was to abandon copper where FIOS was installed at the CO. They even have a 3/1 tier just for this reason.
en103

join:2011-05-02

Re: And the point of the story is?

Moral of the story... go and cut up the copper in your area (probably too late for their metrics). If you have a bad area, you might be on their radar.
25139889

join:2011-10-25
Toledo, OH

1 recommendation

Re: And the point of the story is?

they'd just put new copper in.
majortom1029

join:2006-10-19
Lindenhurst, NY
kudos:1

1 recommendation

This would mean Areas that have a lot of people willing to pay for fios being given to the cable companies. Long island which has 4 million people is only something like a quarter of the way lit. Thats an area with at least 2 million people not wired for fios which should be.

I am sure other suburbs of NYC do not have fios either.

newview
Ex .. Ex .. Exactly
Premium
join:2001-10-01
Parsonsburg, MD
kudos:1
Reviews:
·DIRECTV
·Comcast

Wishful thinking ...

quote:
Shammo's comments give the impression that Verizon wants to single out any and all costly copper repair markets and upgrade those users for cost efficiency's sake, but in a follow up conversation with Verizon we found that's not entirely the case.
It's definitely not the case in my area. We just got DSL availability in my area this past month. I highly doubt that FIOS is coming ... ever.

Lone Wolf
Retired
Premium
join:2001-12-30
USA
kudos:1

What Happens?

You check your email daily after you sign up on the Notification List.

quote:
Looking for FiOS? Find out when FiOS is available by signing up for our notification list.
Or you call Comcast and tell them you are getting Verizon if they don't lower your bill and voila, instant discount for 12 months.
--
Charlie Rangel/ Gov. Rod Blagojevich 2012 Dem Ticket Honesty is the Dem policy!
majortom1029

join:2006-10-19
Lindenhurst, NY
kudos:1

Re: What Happens?

If you do that for cablevision the person on the phone will go to verizons site and type in your address and see if its actually available to you first.
tmc8080

join:2004-04-24
Brooklyn, NY
Reviews:
·ooma
·Optimum Online
·Verizon FiOS

next phase?

attack of the UN-FEES! Digital Voice and Cable-Tv have both seen NEW increases in your bottom line pricetag. A new FEDERAL Regulatory Recovery Fee is making the rounds for the Cable-Tv portion of the bill. over the past year my bill overall rose about 50 cents in these fees.

The FIOS product is getting more expensive and stale (stagnant internet speed offerings, admob local ads, limited voicemail storage, etc).. so just having the opportunity to get a better deal than comcast's and at&t's price gouge and capped services is an improvement even at higher costs (they set a very low bar)-- however Verzion has no interest in deploying FTTP services to you even at the higher prices. They want to offer wireless at the industry imposed $10 per gigabyte beyond bulk data purchases the way you purchase buckets of use or lose voice minutes.

Verizon needs to lose some of the FIOS customers they have to begin to change this attitude of overcharging and maybe things will change for everyone. $120 for triple play 25/25? rediculous when they began offering it for under $100 2 years ago (the $99 charge doesn't include set-top rental taxes and fees.. that's ANOTHER $20).

diamond

@verizon.net

Re: next phase?

fios stale??? you must mean the cable company. They are still using original stb's that they used when digital cable first became available years ago. They haven't even changed the guide since then

TwighlightLA
Premium
join:2010-07-03
kudos:1

FiOS will never be available in my neighborhood

Approximately two years ago I asked a Verizon representative if FiOS would ever be available where I live. I considered him knowledgeable, informed, and honest.

He said that Verizon would "never" be installing or making FiOS available in the area where I live. For Verizon service the choice would all ways be DSL and nothing else. Fortunately I have for now a good cable alternative.

capecoddah

join:2005-03-18
Yarmouth Port, MA
kudos:1

Re: FiOS will never be available in my neighborhood

I was chatting informally to a Verizon employee in my neighborhood about FIOS.

When the sun is a lump of charcoal.
jeepwrang3

join:2011-02-24
North East, MD
I've spent the past year trying to see what options my neighborhood has for any sort of an upgrade albeit DSL/FIOS since we're serviced by nothing other than verizon POTS. Verizon has a truck stationed in the front of our neighborhood working on the phones at least 5 days a week, its a never ending project i guess.

I've gone as far as reaching out to the regional represenative for MD/VA and the FCC. The only response I've received was a resounding No from the regional rep, and a letter that said sorry but you're never in the plans. Go figure why i've cancelled our telephone service.

Ultimately I understand their business model, just not that they'd rather pay someone to spend 8 hours a day 5 days a week to work on 30 year old copper.

isencom

@archive.org

Noooooo don't take my copper line!

I've got FIOS on one line, Verizon twisted pair on the other. On FIOS I've had two week+ outages. On copper, it just f-in works. If they try to "upgrade" my other line, they'll lose. Either they'll lose one of our two lines or they'll lose me entirely to the Cableco. If Verizon had proved they could run a fiber line, I'd be much more circumspect, but the have proven the opposite. My story:
»isen.com/blog/2010/03/verizon-lizn-liz/
»isen.com/blog/2010/03/verizon-do···n-knows/
»isen.com/blog/2010/03/fios-folli···apter-3/
»isen.com/blog/2010/03/verizonology/
»isen.com/blog/2010/05/verizon-fi···ictably/
»isen.com/blog/2010/05/fios-outage-the-pix/
»isen.com/blog/2010/05/fios-outag···2-cones/
»isen.com/blog/2010/05/fios-resto···i-think/

N3OGH
Yo Soy Col. "Bat" Guano
Premium
join:2003-11-11
Philly burbs
kudos:2

Re: Noooooo don't take my copper line!

I've had Fios for almost 3 years now. Never an issue. Rock solid connection, speeds as advertised, awesome picture quality.

I have to go "off roding" a bit and call astroturfing on your part. The bulk of reviews here at BBR give Fios an above average grade.

I couldn't be happier with the service all around. It really is the best bang for the buck around here, and I recommend to anyone who asks.

I'm a very satisfied Fios customer.....
--
Petty people are disproportionally corrupted by petty power

Poorfellow

join:2008-03-16
New York, NY

Re: Noooooo don't take my copper line!

said by N3OGH:

I've had Fios for almost 3 years now. Never an issue. Rock solid connection, speeds as advertised, awesome picture quality.

I have to go "off roding" a bit and call astroturfing on your part. The bulk of reviews here at BBR give Fios an above average grade.

I couldn't be happier with the service all around. It really is the best bang for the buck around here, and I recommend to anyone who asks.

I'm a very satisfied Fios customer.....

I won't speak to the quality of TV or IP connectivity with FiOS, just as you didn't speak to the reliability of FiOS telephone service. Apparently you didn't notice the person to whom you replied was referring to telephone service...

At any rate, we've found in a business environment that when our lines were delivered by FiOS to a particular branch location, we've had constant issues. Downtime is generally absent when service is delivered by copper, and repaired quickly when it is down. Unfortunately, there is no copper to the location, and we're in the process of trying to get Verizon to run a 25-pair cable to the SLC. It isn't clear why service was delivered via ONTs, when other business at the location in question receive dialtone via a SLC (and have no issues).

Maybe FiOS hates Centrex, or is generally less reliable than copper for POTS.

Was speaking about my negative experience astroturfing?

Bootes
Premium
join:2005-01-28
New York, NY

Re: Noooooo don't take my copper line!

I've had Fios telephone for more than 3 years and it's never gone down.
PX Eliezer70
Premium
join:2008-08-09
Hutt River
kudos:13

The picture is incomplete

The article talks about "Verizon broadband customers" such as those who have DSL (which Verizon also calls HSI).

But what about customers in Verizon areas who have NO type of Verizon broadband?

My whole neighborhood is in the heart of a prosperous suburban town, and we are in the heart of town, near the town hall, post office, stores, etc.

Yet we have NO type of Verizon broadband (not even DSL) even though the phone company here has been Verizon and its predecessors for 100 years.

That's because Verizon built its "switch" several miles away, probably where land was cheaper.

So we have no new FiOS, no old FiOS, and NO DSL.

Thanks to Cablevision's Optimum, we do have internet service----

----no thanks to Verizon and their fancy TV ads.
chgo_man99

join:2010-01-01
San Jose, CA

Re: The picture is incomplete

don't feel bad.

there is a nice little tourist town that draws them a lot the whole year from Chicago and midwest. Galena, IL on hilly territory with countryside home rentals, ski resorts, nice downtown similar to Lincoln Park streets with shops, bars, restaurants - yet

no At&t has u-verse/dsl there, no LTE, no 3G (all area is edge), Verizon has no LTE there.
hussle87
Premium
join:2008-01-06
Sykesville, MD

Re: verizon should sell their non fios markets

Maybe google or some other big company will but verizons non fios areas and build a FTTP system.
As some of you may have read verizon wants to deploy LTE to non fios areas. We all know here that LTE can never replace fiber, mainly because of the latency of the system.
chgo_man99

join:2010-01-01
San Jose, CA

Re: verizon should sell their non fios markets

The latency may be bad, but so my cable in rural areas that runs 30+ latency. I saw Comcast in large cities or suburbs doing better pulling under 9ms.

It depends on area and how much obstruction and interference exist. If LTE pulls under 50ms with no signal loss its good for most apps.
hussle87
Premium
join:2008-01-06
Sykesville, MD
probably not for gaming.

Aozora

join:2008-11-28

If only DSL was that of EU and other countries

Shit speeds with DSL, no plans for upgrades, etc. Future looking good guys. I remember EU gets like 20Mbps DSL for like $20 last I remember asking friends I know live in the EU.
chgo_man99

join:2010-01-01
San Jose, CA

Re: If only DSL was that of EU and other countries

Simple, Europe had to start from scratch building phone system later than America so they got newer infrastructure capable of supporting adsl2+. Not many areas serve VDSL or FTTH.

Oh and remember that cable there has smaller footprint than in the US, limited mostly to cities with condos/blocks, mid-rise or highrise towers. If an area only has single family homes you wont find there cable. Of course it depends on a member country.

Poorfellow

join:2008-03-16
New York, NY

Re: If only DSL was that of EU and other countries

said by chgo_man99:

Simple, Europe had to start from scratch building phone system later than America so they got newer infrastructure capable of supporting adsl2+. Not many areas serve VDSL or FTTH.

Oh and remember that cable there has smaller footprint than in the US, limited mostly to cities with condos/blocks, mid-rise or highrise towers. If an area only has single family homes you wont find there cable. Of course it depends on a member country.

Right -- Europe didn't have telephone until ADSL2+.
chgo_man99

join:2010-01-01
San Jose, CA

Re: If only DSL was that of EU and other countries

Many areas did not have telephone until 90's. Its especially true for central and eastern europe. Look the highest speeds you get are in Romania, Latvia, etc.

toby
Troy Mcclure

join:2001-11-13
Portland, OR

Re: If only DSL was that of EU and other countries

said by chgo_man99:

Many areas did not have telephone until 90's. Its especially true for central and eastern europe. Look the highest speeds you get are in Romania, Latvia, etc.

They were too busy workin' darn' t' pit etc..

That sure is a funny impression of Europe that you have.
chgo_man99

join:2010-01-01
San Jose, CA

Re: If only DSL was that of EU and other countries

I am from rural areas from there that were not totally rural, I lived in a small town and I know what I speak about.

I lived there before dsl was available and first it was dial up with pay per use rates and later HIS (Home Internet Solution) from Ericson that got you permament circuit with speeds up to 115kb/s (dropping to 70kb when you talked). It became available everywhere where was dialup available. It started in 1998. Then in 2001 it was started slowly being replaced by DSL. By 2010 it totally replaced HIS (a form of IDSL before ADSL was widely popular).

Its was like T1 but slower and cheaper, more affordable for regular Joes.
elefante72

join:2010-12-03
East Amherst, NY
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS

1 recommendation

It makes sense

I read through VZ financial statement. They reduced wireline capex by 50% (2 to 1 billion) which means that this is gravy for the next 40 years. Inherent in their strategy is offloading wireline for marginal areas (why upgrade to fibre and then sell). So they will eventually cover fringe areas that have low competition when the churn rate overtakes the FIOS additions (maybe 2013), and they convert legacy copper to fibre.

AT&T HFC model doesn't make LONG TERM sense because you have the last mile issue w/ copper, and that problem isnt going to go away, so in a few years that will bite them. So for areas w/ FTTH that will be a problem.

FTTH will allow VZ to have hybrid cell/fibre projects and then just bypass copper 100%. They need whitespace or LTE to be done first before they try it (this needs to be 100% IP first), and that will probably happen at the time of VoLTE rolls out (okay maybe 6 months later). Once they do that they can reclaim 3G (1xrtt first), then they can use spectrumco to blanket the big markets.

So the backhaul will be a combo to microwave, LTE, and fibre (depending upon market) and will be LTE/Fibre--that it.

The losers in all of this are going to be areas served by the offloading of the baby bells to the mini bells who have loads of debt and DSL (not that its bad). Economically speaking copper doesnt make sense. Maybe the new pres wakes up and directs all that USF to building FTTH to the people that big corps will never service. That is the ONLY way it will happen, because they are not going to mandate telco like the old days...

This is all very smart. AT&T has taken the more conservative approach approach to this, and is sort of lucky however wireless is where the gravy is so even the dimwitted survive. I have to give credit for iphone tho, it made them rich.

If VZ buys a CDN, then it makes sense to increase fibre. They probably will.
sludgehound

join:2007-03-12
New York, NY

Cheap work if can get it.

Get some of those Detroit metal scavangers working on stripping the copper. City block be gone in a night. No unions, no pensions.
zed260
Premium
join:2011-11-11
Cleveland, TN
Reviews:
·Charter

1 edit

outside of greenfeild deployment fios will probably not be

expanded for far longer the just years may be decades if i had to bet

anyway most likely your have to wait for a natural disaster a lot of the area around here when tornadoes hit for at&t was ether moved to ftth or far higher grade copper in the repairs

natural disasters happen every so often atleast one bright side is forced to upgrade infrastructure then
etaadmin

join:2002-01-17
Dallas, TX
kudos:1

... and the winner is?

Not FIOS not Uverse, the winners are the cable companies with DOCSIS3.0
JohnBasedow

join:2011-11-25
Plainfield, NH

I feel terrible for you all...

Boston, Baltimore, Buffalo...how do you get by with DSL and Cable? I feel your pain!

Oh wait, no I don't. I don't have ANY of those options. Such a joke. "Boohoo, I can't get FiOS! I only have a 20 meg download speed!" Imagine if you had a dial-up/satellite hybrid like Verizon's shitty 3G network! Slow speeds, high latency and super low caps! Yippee!
BiggA

join:2005-11-23
EARTH

1 recommendation

100%

They should go to 100% with FIOS. The investors are a bunch of retards who don't understand that Verizon can either upgrade to FIOS or lose to cable.

••••

cableties
Premium
join:2005-01-27

1 recommendation

PUC needs a kick

There is still an upside-down base of DSL to FiOS.
Most are suburban (rural) or mid-urban (neighborhoods outside metro areas).

And major concern with the copper plant is they don't want to spend the money (no short term gains) thanks to the failing mentality of no investing in long term.

Near me, bad NIDs, bad splice containers and splitting trunks (we are talking trunk lines that have been hanging on poles since the late 40's and 50's). Water gets into the splices/trunks and NIDS and there goes the process called oxidation. And there are other conditions like "it wasn't designed for this".

We can all pray that some driver (no harm please) or act of mother nature takes out those lines so they have to replace with newer tech.

But like Karl kinda sums up, Telcos like Verizon care only about their bottom line and not the customer or communications future.
--
Splat

stinks of vz

@optonline.net

dont want fios

I see Verizon to trying to sell all there landline assets as soon as they settle contracts with the unions. They dont want Fios or there copper network. Frontier had gotten over 100,000 Fios customers when they bought Verizons network, and now they charge a $1000 installation fee, and at the same time, trying to steer those Fios TV customers to Directv. Frontier cant afford the cost for content for Fios(HBO,SHOWTIME etc..) I think at this point you can only hope that Google buys Verizons Fios network, because Google is now doing there own FTTP Network

JoeJamoke

@comcast.net

Time for some communities to stop waiting for FiOS

Some communities should stop waiting for Verizon and take matters into their own hands if they want better telecommunications services. They could band together to create a non-profit corporation to install a fiber network throughout their region, or install a municipal fiber network. Take the money currently going to the town library, apply for federal/state grants, and implement usage fees to help pay for it. Once they have their network up and running, they could really kick Verizon in the balls by revoking or seizing their copper land usage rights for telephone poles by passing a law that allows such seizure or revocation in the case of service providers who don't update their services to modern standards.

repl1ka

@verizon.net

FIOS is being installed in my Neighborhood

Over the last week contractors have been installing fiber into by neighborhood per Verizon.