republican-creole
Search:  

 
 
   News
newer
story category In Favor Of Per-Byte Broadband Billing?
The Internet Will Collapse Unless 'X' Happens
(old news - 08:45AM Thursday Dec 27 2007)
tags: prices · business · bandwidth
Yet more predictions of bandwidth armageddon, this time by Harvard University's Elaine Kamarck in the Boston Globe. Kamarck insists that the current all you can eat pricing model must be shifted to a billing-by-the-byte model if the Internet is to survive. Either that, she argues, or carriers have to charge outfits like YouTube higher fees for access:
Over at MIT, the Communications Futures Program argues that we are fast coming to a turning point - either the flat-rate pricing models have to end so that there can be more investment, or the Internet will slow to a crawl. Pricing changes will be unpopular to consumers accustomed to what they call "all you can eat" prices. Another available option is to charge the generators of video such as YouTube higher fees for access and continue with the flat rate pricing models.
We suppose the editorial would have you believe that AT&T and Comcast, already bloated with profits under the existing flat-rate business model, can afford multi-million-dollar CEO bonuses but are too cash-strapped to upgrade their infrastructure? Of course AT&T and Comcast are able to upgrade their network just fine, investors just want to boost revenue. Heavy new per-byte surcharges and "YouTube taxes" certainly accomplish this.

So far, the push for per-byte billing comes from the investment community, not actual network engineers. In fact some engineers will tell you that Internet growth is actually slowing. We recently sat down with a number of ISPs earlier this year and found no plans from any them to ditch flat-rate pricing.

Some would like to, but after looking at the failure of the model in Australia they're too afraid of consumer backlash to proceed. They have in effect made their advertising all-you-can-eat bed, and are now being forced to lie in it. If per-byte billing appears in the U.S., it will first show up in the form of cap overage fees (ie: pass your monthly cap, pay per MB).

As we've mentioned repeatedly, people whining about a looming capacity crunch are almost always pushing a political or financial agenda, be it a lobbyist gunning for less regulation (the Internet will collapse if we're heavily regulated!), an incumbent trying to create a new revenue stream (our network will implode if we can't tax YouTube!), or hardware vendors using FUD to sell traffic shaping hardware.

Don't be afraid of the bandwidth crunch bogeyman.

Related:
  1. Cable: Let Us Experiment With Pricing Or The Internet Explodes
  2. Comcast 50Mbps To See Price Cut
  3. AT&T Announces U-Verse Enhancements
  4. Verizon Announces New FiOS Tiers, Promotions
  5. Cogeco Metered Billing Goes Live, Confuses Customers
  6. Mythbusters' Savage The Latest Socked With Huge 3G Bill
  7. AT&T: 65,000 SMS Sent Per SECOND
  8. Cogeco Tells Us They're Working On Meter Problems...
Forums » In Favor Of Per-Byte Broadband Billing?
view: topics flat text 
Post a:
page: 1 · 2

Persona
Premium
join:2004-07-07
Gravenhurst, ON
·Cogeco Cable

Give Me A Break

I'm sure Elaine Kamarck provides some thought provoking, perhaps profound lectures at her real job, but her attempts to speak to the masses is simply a bad joke. England based their technology on pay as you go (telecom) and have never truly recovered from that stupid move.
devnuller

join:2006-06-10
Hollis, NH


1 edit

Re: Give Me A Break

said by Karl Bode See Profile :

But are carriers like AT&T and Comcast really struggling so badly under the current pricing model, that they can afford multi-million-dollar CEO bonuses and fantastic profits but can't upgrade their infrastructure?
The above statement is nothing more than agenda based rhetoric.

All ISPs are upgrading their infrastructure to keep ahead of the annual curve. The issue is pointing to a possible tipping point of the Internet with HD video and high bandwidth p2p. If growth drastically changed (similar to the introduction of HTML/Mosaic and the change to a 95%ile billing in the 90's) things will change (billing and technology innovation)

In the early 90's when flat rate commercial changed to 95%ile billing, it came with resistance (by the top business users) and then worked out fine. Usage Tiers will most likely do the same thing.
nasadude

join:2001-10-05
Rockville, MD
·Comcast

Re: Give Me A Break

said by devnuller See Profile :

said by Karl Bode See Profile :

But are carriers like AT&T and Comcast really struggling so badly under the current pricing model, that they can afford multi-million-dollar CEO bonuses and fantastic profits but can't upgrade their infrastructure?
The above statement is nothing more than agenda based rhetoric.

....
you don't appear to actually understand the statement you are characterizing.

Karl's point is simple:

various entities with vested interests have been warning of the coming "bandwidth crunch" for well over a year now - h/w vendors hype it to sell network management gear; investors and ISPs hype it as an excuse to charge more or get regulatory relief (these definitely sound like agenda based rhetoric). One sure-fire way to solve the "bandwidth crunch" IS TO ADD MORE BANDWIDTH. If these companies profits are above normal and they are paying their CEOs and other executives tens of millions of $$, one would certainly think they could afford to ADD MORE BANDWIDTH.

unfortunately, their agenda is to scare politicians and regulators into giving them more power to milk consumers of even more money.
Ulmo

join:2005-09-22
San Jose, CA
·Comcast
·SONIC.NET

Re: Give Me A Break

said by nasadude See Profile :

you don't appear to actually understand the statement you are characterizing.

Karl's point is simple:

various entities with vested interests have been warning of the coming "bandwidth crunch" for well over a year now - h/w vendors hype it to sell network management gear; investors and ISPs hype it as an excuse to charge more or get regulatory relief (these definitely sound like agenda based rhetoric). One sure-fire way to solve the "bandwidth crunch" IS TO ADD MORE BANDWIDTH. If these companies profits are above normal and they are paying their CEOs and other executives tens of millions of $$, one would certainly think they could afford to ADD MORE BANDWIDTH.

unfortunately, their agenda is to scare politicians and regulators into giving them more power to milk consumers of even more money.
Sorry I didn't have time to edit my quote of you, but I think you characterized the good parts that I agree with Karl about correctly, except for the wild prediction that they have enough money in all cases to meet any bandwidth demand -- I'd personally temper that a bit, but certainly not much (since lack of supply is acceptable within small ranges of lack). I still disagree with him (Karl) on the point of the ability of usage-based billing to work correctly depending upon implementation. That it is used as a scare tactic is not surprising, since there aren't ample examples of it being properly implemented (i.e., not slanted to favor some people, by heavily shifting resources from some users to others, overcharging (gouging) many, etc.. ... i.e., close-to-cost-based would be best). I said that in my other post.

Bellundo

@teksavvy.com

I hate to tell you you're wrong but you're wrong very, very wrong. You need only look north of the American border to Canada a country that spends nothing to upgrade any and all infrastructures. The Canadian solution is speed throttling and traffic shaping as well as charging about one million percent extra for bandwidth over and above the cost to the provider.
devnuller

join:2006-06-10
Hollis, NH


2 edits

Re: Give Me A Break

said by Bellundo :

charging about one million percent extra for bandwidth over and above the cost to the provider.
Let's do the math on that. Average cost / mb for ISPs vary depending on volume. If you were to buy 6mb from say Cogent in a hosting facility they would charge you about $100 / 1Mbps per month. A T1 (1.5Mbps oversubscribed upstream) costs on average $300 / month.

But if you were to buy say 10,000 Mbps and carve it up you could pay as low as $20 / Mbps. This equals a cost to the provider anywhere between $120 to $600 per month to support your usage of 6Mbps running full out for only 5% of the month (95%ile billing that commercial uses today)

What people pay is far lower than wholesale market rates for bandwidth. This is due the ISPs ability to share the cost among average and heavy users. Upgrading the infrastructure to allow everyone to use 6Mbps continuously is unrealistic.

Unfortunately this math conflicts slightly with your analysis of 1,000,000% extra for bandwidth.
bicker

join:2007-05-10
Burlington, MA

Re: Give Me A Break

said by devnuller See Profile :

What people pay is far lower than wholesale market rates for bandwidth. This is due the ISPs ability to share the cost among average and heavy users.
In other words, the average users subsidize the heavy users. That differential will eventually vanish. As different communications technologies come together -- actually, as mainstream communications technologies (television, telephone) find themselves riding on HSI more and more, average users will become heavy users, and so everyone will have to start paying for what they use.

KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK
$100 a meg. Why do I find that number to be way, way off.
devnuller

join:2006-06-10
Hollis, NH

Re: Give Me A Break

said by KrK See Profile :

$100 a meg. Why do I find that number to be way, way off.
Because you have not had to buy commercial bandwidth before. That number is what you would expect to pay AT&T, Level3, etc if you purchased bandwidth in the 10Mbps range. You see the $300 for a T1 ads on this site all the time. That price is more like $200 / Mbps.

KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK

Re: Give Me A Break

Nope. Those prices are for the T-1 connection. What does the actual BANDWIDTH cost.

I'm positive it's not $100 a meg.
devnuller

join:2006-06-10
Hollis, NH

Re: Give Me A Break

said by KrK See Profile :

I'm positive it's not $100 a meg.
Based on what? I just quoted you volume based sources and prices. What do you think the difference is between a T1 and a clocked down Ethernet connection is?

Not sure I can answer the question to your satisfaction as your uninformed, yet preconceived number is something that is unrealistic. Please provide some actual information that you have on real world wholesale ISP pricing based on volume commitments and location.

KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK
·Cox HSI
·AT&T Southwest

Re: Give Me A Break

Your number is simply INSANE. I am positive you're talking about the PIPE not the USAGE.

If we take your argument that 1MB costs $100, that means if you download say SP2 that you just cost your ISP $4k. There's no way.

Bandwidth is cheap.
devnuller

join:2006-06-10
Hollis, NH


2 edits

Re: Give Me A Break

said by KrK See Profile :

Your number is simply INSANE. I am positive you're talking about the PIPE not the USAGE.

If we take your argument that 1MB costs $100, that means if you download say SP2 that you just cost your ISP $4k. There's no way.

Bandwidth is cheap.
You are making a lot of statements, but you really don't have any idea on how bandwidth is priced. It is usage, but not the way you think.

Wholesale bandwidth costs are billed on 95%ile peak usage. The usage is sampled every 5 min over the course of a month and the top 5% of samples are thrown away.

Example: Say you have a 6Mb pipe and are a heavy to average user. You can use the full 6Mb when needed to download SP2, email, gaming, occasional BT, web surf, etc. When your usage is plotted out over the month your 95%ile peak will be probably around 100K. This bandwidth cost is about $10 at $100/Mb. This is just the ISP costs and not the CRAN, CMTS, backbone, provisioning systems, email systems, etc.

Example2: You are a user that runs heavy P2P hosting with a multi-terabit drive array. You download more DVD videos, games, music, etc. than you can use and share them with the Internet at large. You sustain the 6Mb peak usage for more that 5% of the month (1.5days in total). This actually costs the ISP $120 / month at $20/Mb. This bandwidth costs is on top of all the other costs to support your connection. The $20 number is because the ISP buys connections at 10's of thousands of Mb. If you alone were to get a 6Mb service from an AT&T or Level3 in a carrier facility you WOULD pay close to $100/Mb and Example2 would be close to $600/month.

KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK

Re: Give Me A Break

You're still talking about charging based of line capacity, however, not what transferring 1meg actually costs. And even $20 a meg is way, way too much.
devnuller

join:2006-06-10
Hollis, NH


1 edit

Re: Give Me A Break

"Meg transfered" is not what dictates the cost of a network. An analogy would be how wide you build a highway. You don't build it for how many cars pass over it a day, you build it for how many at rush hour.

300Gb at 1Meg / second cost less than 300Gb at 6 Meg / second for 1/6th of the time. One has to build the infrastructure and pay the costs to sustain the 6Mb. Networks are built for peek usage, not total consumption.

KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK

Re: Give Me A Break

Then there's no problem, as there's no need to go to pay-by-byte billing.
bicker

join:2007-05-10
Burlington, MA

Re: Give Me A Break

There is a relationship between peak traffic and traffic, especially on the local level.

KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK

Re: Give Me A Break

This whole topic has been derailed. Care to offer evidence of what a 1MB file actually costs an ISP?
bicker

join:2007-05-10
Burlington, MA

Re: Give Me A Break

If you want to argue with me, at least argue against something I actually said.

KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK

Re: Give Me A Break

I'm not interested in arguing with anyone over more off-topic issues. People keep trying to compare Apples and Oranges here, and then insist that's why the results end up with Watermelons.
bicker

join:2007-05-10
Burlington, MA

Re: Give Me A Break

Sounds to me that you're unhappy you're not getting an unrebutted soap-box to project your own perspective. If you really want that, you really want to get a blog; it's not what a discussion forum is for.

KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK
·Cox HSI
·AT&T Southwest


1 edit

Re: Give Me A Break



Sounds to me like you just always want to get in that one last shot, no matter what it's about. I forgive you though, you can't help it. Thanks for adding nothing to the discussion.

2 thumbs up!
devnuller

join:2006-06-10
Hollis, NH

1 edit
I feel like I am talking to a 3 year old. Some concepts like this may be to advanced for Krk to understand.
bicker

join:2007-05-10
Burlington, MA


2 edits

Re: Give Me A Break

said by devnuller :

I feel like I am talking to a 3 year old. Some concepts like this may be to advanced for Krk to understand.
While I wouldn't care to speculate which is the case, if either, keep in mind that it is as likely, if not more likely, for someone to deliberately refuse to acknowledge something than to not understand it.

KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK
·Cox HSI
·AT&T Southwest

Yeah, yeah. When you fail to support your allegations, just result to insults.

Sorry, but your claims of $100 a meg are proven hogwash. Even your concession of maybe $20 a meg is still completely off, and you know it. Under your pricing, every ISP, even dialup, would of been bankrupted long ago.

So throw out some more insults, I don't care. Just admit it, you have no idea what it really costs to transfer a meg of traffic... but I'm sure you'll insist otherwise.
--
"Regulatory capitalism is when companies invest in lawyers, lobbyists, and politicians, instead of plant, people, and customer service." - former FCC Chairman William Kennard (A real FCC Chairman, unlike the current Corporate Spokesperson in the job!)

elvey
Spamassassin

join:2001-02-17
San Francisco, CA
·Pacific Bell - SBC
·Comcast
·SONIC.NET


1 edit

Remedial unit information.

Mbps != MB != MBps.

Mbps is megabits per second. In the current context, $100 / Mbps means a basic 10Mbps Ethernet connection would run $1000/month.

Over a month, this could transfer »www.google.com/search?&q=10Mbps%···%20month 3 TB of data. Google is your friend; it understands these units; use it if you don't.
--
AT&T is the world's second-largest SpamHaus and leads an
Organized Crime Syndicate. Also see TURN.org or UCAN.

KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK
·Cox HSI
·AT&T Southwest


1 edit

Re: Remedial unit information.

This was my point all along with the comment about comparing apples to oranges. The thread started out at first talking about what the costs of traffic are. It was quickly derailed into what prices someone could in theory pay for some XX speed connection, which it was NEVER about.

So, the "current context" as you put it never was the issue, and no one ever explained why pay-per-byte processing was needed. Basically, nobody answered what it really costs to transfer a 1 meg file.
--
"Regulatory capitalism is when companies invest in lawyers, lobbyists, and politicians, instead of plant, people, and customer service." - former FCC Chairman William Kennard (A real FCC Chairman, unlike the current Corporate Spokesperson in the job!)

Bellundo

@teksavvy.com
No, one million percent is an accurate assessment.
Ulmo

join:2005-09-22
San Jose, CA
·Comcast
·SONIC.NET

said by devnuller See Profile :

usage of 6Mbps running full out for only 5% of the month (95%ile billing that commercial uses today)
Could you clarify that? What is 95 percentile billing? Here's what I found in Google so far:

»www.epidirect.com/Bandwidth/Unde···tile.htm

Are those representative?

So, in other words, they ignore 99.999% of your use? That seems dumb. Why not count it? I've created metrics that do stuff like this, but what help is this particular metric (that ignores most of your use)? Is it outdated or overapplied?

Reading their example, I see that:

1. (Top) 5% is ignored. Ignorance is bad.
2. (Bottom) approaching 95% is ignored after that. More ignorance is worse.

Almost 100% of your use is ignored; only one essoteric sliver of your use is considered. That is insane. I would never consent to a charge plan like that!

They ought to do flat-per-use charging, not log scale or anything obtuse like that.

For instance:

* You are charged the sum of the following:

A. $Y per Z of circuit bits per second capable.

E.g., you have a 1 Gigabit Ethernet connection (10^9 bits/second each way full duplex), and you are charged $1 per day for it ($1 per Gigabit per second bandwidth connection per day). That is about $365.24 per year. They could even charge you just a one-time flat fee of $7,283 to install, once. (Or, what about only $823.28?) Different options abound when you do cost-based charging rather than insane subsidizing.

B. $W per actual X bits used in bandwidth out the end of that connection (they could charge different rates for inbound and outbound, but I'll assume they're charged the same for this example).

E.g., you use 100 terabits (of your ~63.1 available petabits, or half that each direction) in a year of usage, and you are charged approximately $10 per terabit, so that is a charge of $1,000 for usage per year, or $83 per month, in addition to the above charge for the connection.

No ignorance; every bit counted.

For comparison, but not that it matters (it could all be bursted in one day I guess), is the average use of the circuit would be ~3,168,896 bits per second (of both directions), so half of that is ~1,584,448 bits per second, which is 0.158% of your gigabit ethernet connection's speed in one direction, or 0.317% of your gigabit ethernet connection's speed in one direction if all of the bits went the same direction.

If you had a 10 megabit/s connection, then that would be about an average of 32% of your connection used, once again, irrelevent, since you could use it all at the same time or not.

If the ISP was charged more for peak times and less for off-peak times, then they could pass those charges to you, but that doesn't make sense; they ought to just charge one rate for every bit at every level. We don't need to subsidize the peak or bursting users when we're just non-peak and non-bursting profiled users. If the peak based or the bursting based users want more bandwidth for their peaks or bursts, then they should pay for it, not us, the constant users. Anyway, the bursters get to benefit from an aggregate of bursting users all paying for things together. The peak users are the ones that might bitch and moan; they are the ones that ought to either shift their use elsewhere (like a service that has sufficient peak availability), use less, or use at a different time. There is no need for us to subsidize them.

The cost per bit can be calculated by the ISP on a daily basis. M bits passed this connection today, and the connection costs O dollars per day in total installation and maintenance costs over its entire life averaged out, so the cost per bit today is $O/M. That is, the more bits that passed, the less each bit costs. Then, a margin level (profit) is applied to that amount (let's say 2%-15%), and then that amount is the charge applied that day. Since that is hard to track by users, there would have to be a buffer: instead of per day, it would be done per month. That is, cost per circuit per month is $N, and the bits used in a month is P bits per month, so $N/P times multiplier (say 15%) is how much bandwidth costs the next month, as an estimate based upon the previous month. The ISP could quote you double according to previous month for your limiting budget metrics, then charge you actual rate for that real month's usage, too; that would be pretty simple. The ISP could eat any undercharges due to overdouble growth rates for one month, and they can temporarily surcharge the rate to adjust, realigning within one month.

That's a lot better than "percentile" charging, which is *TOTALLY* bogus.

espaeth
Digital Plumber
Premium,MVM
join:2001-04-21
Minneapolis, MN
·voip.ms
·Vitelity VOIP
·Callcentric
·VoiceStick
·ViaTalk
·Comcast
·Embarq

Re: Give Me A Break

said by Ulmo See Profile :

Could you clarify that? What is 95 percentile billing? Here's what I found in Google so far:

»www.epidirect.com/Bandwidth/Unde···tile.htm

Are those representative?

So, in other words, they ignore 99.999% of your use? That seems dumb. Why not count it? I've created metrics that do stuff like this, but what help is this particular metric (that ignores most of your use)? Is it outdated or overapplied?

Reading their example, I see that:

1. (Top) 5% is ignored. Ignorance is bad.
2. (Bottom) approaching 95% is ignored after that. More ignorance is worse.

Almost 100% of your use is ignored; only one essoteric sliver of your use is considered. That is insane. I would never consent to a charge plan like that!
The problem is you are thinking of it in terms of quantity (number of megabytes or gigabytes) when 95th percentile measurement is about rate. Your key limitation on the ability to deliver network capacity is the speed of your interfaces, which is again determined by a rate in bits per second.

95th percentile calculation is all about "What is your peak 5-minute average utilization most of the time?" This allows the carrier to determine how much capacity to build out, and how to bill their end-users for the bandwidth.

The calculation is done by taking a sample of the number of bits moved across an interface every 5 minutes. Every 5 minutes the difference between the numbers is divided across the 5 minute interval to get an averaged bits per second rate. This evens out spikes from short duration transfers. At the end of the month the rate samples are lined up from greatest to least, the top 5% are discarded, and the next highest rate number is used for billing. So if your 95% value is 2.2mbps, you would be billed for 2.2mbps of transfer rate in addition to your access charges.

The reason you do this instead of billing by quantity is that from a resource utilization standpoint, someone who transfers 300GB in one day consumes more of a circuit than someone who transfers 300GB over 30 days. To move that quanitity of traffic over 30 days would only require 1 mbps of traffic, but to move it in a day would require nearly 28 mbps.

This is the de facto standard for Internet billing, and EVERY carrier bills this way. ATT, Verizon/MCI, Sprint, Level(3), Savvis, Qwest, TimeWarner Telecom, TeliaSonera, GlobalCrossing, Cogent, and every other carrier I haven't mentioned.

-Eric
Ahrenl

join:2004-10-26
North Andover, MA
·Verizon FIOS


1 edit

Re: Give Me A Break

These rate charges are essentially setup to cover maintenance, profit margin, and future build-outs. Greater utilization of the network shouldn't materially increase the maintenance costs for the carrier's, but will substantially increase revenue available to increase the second two buckets. Therefore, in a competitve environment, rates should come down as utilization ticks up, at the same time as greater build-out revenue is generated.

I guess I don't see the problem.
devnuller

join:2006-06-10
Hollis, NH

Re: Give Me A Break

said by Ahrenl See Profile :

Greater utilization of the network shouldn't materially increase the maintenance costs for the carrier's, but will substantially increase revenue available to increase the second two buckets.
Greater utilization = more capital to add capacity = more maintenence costs for warentee's of that capital

Significantly greater utilization = lighting more fiber = significantly more capital = major router upgrades = more facility space = more power = more maintenence costs
Ahrenl

join:2004-10-26
North Andover, MA
·Verizon FIOS

Re: Give Me A Break

said by devnuller See Profile :

Greater utilization = more capital to add capacity = more maintenence costs for warentee's of that capital
More capital will be needed to add capacity, but I'm talking about the long haul resellers. They'll be earning greater revenue before more capital will be needed, thus providing the capital through retained earnings. Maintenance costs should only materially increase if you expanding the size of the network.

said by devnuller See Profile :

Significantly greater utilization = lighting more fiber = significantly more capital = major router upgrades = more facility space = more power = more maintenence costs
There's nothing new here from your last point. Again, we're not talking about last mile operators here.
devnuller

join:2006-06-10
Hollis, NH

Re: Give Me A Break

said by Ahrenl See Profile :

More capital will be needed to add capacity, but I'm talking about the long haul resellers. They'll be earning greater revenue before more capital will be needed, thus providing the capital through retained earnings. Maintenance costs should only materially increase if you expanding the size of the network.
It is true that more bandwidth=more revenue=reinvest portions into capacity growth for the first mile and middlemen ISPs (who charge based on peek usage).

I think that is the point of a need to charge based on usage tiers (not bill-by-the-byte). If there is a drastic increase in demand, the revenue will follow to address the capital demands.

KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK
·Cox HSI
·AT&T Southwest

said by devnuller See Profile :

said by Karl Bode See Profile :

But are carriers like AT&T and Comcast really struggling so badly under the current pricing model, that they can afford multi-million-dollar CEO bonuses and fantastic profits but can't upgrade their infrastructure?
The above statement is nothing more than agenda based rhetoric.
There's only one problem. Unlike rhetoric, which is mostly false, that question states proven FACTS that are public information and therefore impossible to refute.
--
"Regulatory capitalism is when companies invest in lawyers, lobbyists, and politicians, instead of plant, people, and customer service." - former FCC Chairman William Kennard (A real FCC Chairman, unlike the current Corporate Spokesperson in the job!)
devnuller

join:2006-06-10
Hollis, NH

Re: Give Me A Break

Rhetoric almost always uses statistics and real facts.

BUT rhetoric puts them together in an inflammatory fashion to infer relationships between the statistics and facts which really doesn't exist. This is designed to generate an emotional vs. logical understanding of the situation by people that really don't understand the entire story.

Think political attack ads, net-neutrality debates, or any other agenda based information. They all have real facts and statistics behind them, but are put together in a way to push a specific message.
jvanbrecht

join:2007-01-08
Bowie, MD

The problem is not that they started with pay as you go, its the fact that the international telcom providers (ie the US providers) charge by the byte for international traffic. No company can cover their costs while providing their customers with unlimited all you can eat for one price.
Kearnstd
Elf Wizard
Premium
join:2002-01-22
Mullica Hill, NJ
well with what their CEOs take home they must be able to afford it.
--
[65 Arcanist]Filan(High Elf) Zone: Broadband Reports
bicker

join:2007-05-10
Burlington, MA

Re: Give Me A Break

False. CEO salaries are the biggest red herring possible.

Jeffrey
Bye George, 1937-2008
Premium
join:2002-12-24
Huntington Station, NY
clubs:
·Optimum Online
·Verizon FIOS
·Vonage
·magicjack.com

Conceptually vs. Reality

Conceptially, the idea of billing-by-the-byte might make some sense. In the real world, I'm not sure it's possible.

What about my 3 Vonage lines that I have? How will that be counted? What about the spam I receive - that I didn't ask for or - how will that be counted? Xbox live, and other gaming systems? Telecommuters?

There is going to have to be a better way, because if they started billing by the byte tomorrow, I would severely curtail my usage, or switch to a provider that did not have a similar pricing structure.

Seems to me that a bill by the byte system might harm innovation in the long run.
--
And so castles made of sand, slip into the sea, eventually.

I'm the Dude. So that's what you call me. You know, that or, uh, His Dudeness, or uh, Duder, or El Duderino if you're not into the whole brevity thing.
devnuller

join:2006-06-10
Hollis, NH

Re: Conceptually vs. Reality

said by Jeffrey See Profile :

What about my 3 Vonage lines that I have? How will that be counted? What about the spam I receive - that I didn't ask for or - how will that be counted? Xbox live, and other gaming systems? Telecommuters?
It is unlikely that ISPs will bill / byte, but instead have billing tiers (top 5%). Getting into the higher billing rates won't be caused by Xbox gaming, Vonage, as you suggest, but will be caused by Xbox video on demand, heavy P2P (more than most people have for disk space), etc. Very few people will likely fall into these higher tiers.
said by Jeffrey See Profile :

There is going to have to be a better way, because if they started billing by the byte tomorrow, I would severely curtail my usage, or switch to a provider that did not have a similar pricing structure.
That is the point, but again few fall into this category and you may not even come close. If all the top 5% of users "moved providers" eventually that "provider" would fail without some way to recoup the cost of carrying the bandwidth.
said by Jeffrey See Profile :

Seems to me that a bill by the byte system might harm innovation in the long run.
Think hybrid cars, florescent dimmable bulbs, low flow toilets, high efficiency furnaces, mpeg4, etc.
Ulmo

join:2005-09-22
San Jose, CA
·Comcast
·SONIC.NET

said by Jeffrey See Profile :

Conceptially, the idea of billing-by-the-byte might make some sense. In the real world, I'm not sure it's possible.

What about my 3 Vonage lines that I have? How will that be counted? What about the spam I receive - that I didn't ask for or - how will that be counted?
You'd pay for it, and then petition the ISP to sue the pants off of the people who sent it to you. That way the criminals would REALLY be running for cover. That would be a BETTER situation.

Xbox live, and other gaming systems? Telecommuters?
They would pay per use, too. Why wouldn't they?

There is going to have to be a better way, because if they started billing by the byte tomorrow, I would severely curtail my usage, or switch to a provider that did not have a similar pricing structure.
If your use was more than you could afford, you would. Obviously, the international ISP connection system is the total cost for everyone, and you pay your portion of that, and usage-based pricing would mean you pay for your proportional use of that. Perhaps your usage would not be so much that your costs would be unaffordable.

Of course, you would benefit from not overusing.

Seems to me that a bill by the byte system might harm innovation in the long run.
I caution both sides of this argument: (A) don't assume that charges would be too high in cost-based usage. Your VPN and your games could be quite reasonable in charge. (B) don't charge anything other than cost-based usage. I.e., don't subsidize one user with another (beyond noise level), nor seek unruly margins (e.g., more than 20%).

This is where multiple providers competing makes sense; some might deliver bits at a lower cost than others, and therefore in cost-conscious applications, would win. Other applications might not be bit-heavy.

I don't see how true cost-based usage charging would deter innovation. To the contrary:

(A) It would allow unfettered heavy-use to happen according to how much cost(s) the user(s) could bear in the market, rather than inflated blame-driven "criminal vs. ISP gouging" throttling models vs. "95% sliver only" currently used;

(B) It would demand innovation for being bit-efficient, since there would be a natural incentive for people to buy software that had the best bit-to-quality ratio.

Once again, the typical knee-jerk reactions you espouse are opposite of what seems to be what the truth is.

THIS IS ALL PREDICATED UPON COST-BASED USAGE CHARGES. Gouging usage charges that are way-above cost based are of course not considered in my considerations.

Jeffrey
Bye George, 1937-2008
Premium
join:2002-12-24
Huntington Station, NY
clubs:
·Optimum Online
·Verizon FIOS
·Vonage
·magicjack.com


2 edits

Re: Conceptually vs. Reality

said by Ulmo See Profile :

Once again, the typical knee-jerk reactions you espouse are opposite of what seems to be what the truth is.

THIS IS ALL PREDICATED UPON COST-BASED USAGE CHARGES. Gouging usage charges that are way-above cost based are of course not considered in my considerations.
You have some good ideas and opinions. That being said, none of what I had typed above was knee-jerk reactions. Per byte billing has been floating around for quite a while, and any reaction I've had certainly was not knee jerk, as you so kindly put it.

I think it's going to hurt overall innovation, and it's always easier to charge the customer more instead of companies reinventing how they do business. Companies - like Netflix - want to change the way they deliver movies. Downloadable, instead of sending discs through the mail. Per-byte billing might kill that entire idea. I'd love to download Netflix movies to my PC directly, but not at a per-byte billing.

And for me, it doesn't so much come down to cost as opposed to value I get from it. Cost is irrelevant, my value for my $ is what I'm concerned with. If something costs me $200 a month, but it's well worth it, then I can accept that. I can not accept something that nickle and dimes me when I pay a fair monthly fee for it. I'll pay good money for something that I need, and use - up to a point. When it reaches that point, I will find alternatives, or forgo it completely.

Of course I'd love to evaluate what companies would consider to be acceptable per-byte policies. How much for how much money.

And you really think anyone at all is going to get the ISPs to sue the people who sent the spam? Can I come live in your delusional world please?

Edit: Here's a post of yours from Verizon's symmetrical Fios.
»Re: Why?

Wave bye-bye to that "edge", with per-byte billing.

--
And so castles made of sand, slip into the sea, eventually.

I'm the Dude. So that's what you call me. You know, that or, uh, His Dudeness, or uh, Duder, or El Duderino if you're not into the whole brevity thing.
garmst

join:2000-09-17
New York, NY

MIT versus Reality

Under our fixed price system regime we have:

1. Verizon investing and deploying and a world class fiber network.
2. ATT investing and deploying a crippled, but what will eventually be fixed and be a almost world class network.
3. All Wireless carriers investing and deploying high speed wireless IP networks.
4. New Wimax IP networks possibly carrying "free"*** IP if not low cost fixed price traffic.
5. ISPs currently and continually upgrading backbone capacity in this fixed price environment.

There is no reality in her observations. Academia does have its own substantial limitations.

zachary1
you talkin' to me?

join:2004-03-07
right here

Re: MIT versus Reality

MIT people should stick to card counting in blackjack, what they're good at.
bamabrad

join:2006-01-27
Port Orange, FL

The situation will be solved

by the consumer-either where we spend our monies(to which provider's pricing plans best fits our needs) OR if these companies get too greedy and tee enough people or the right people off, the consumer will vote the companies' services right into regulation.
netposer

join:2003-02-06
Nashville, NC

Horrible idea.


More and more content is going online so paying per byte will kill that.

I don't want to pay for a movie twice. Once for the movie and once for the data stream.
tmc8080

join:2004-04-24
Floral Park, NY

Do you trust last mile providers?

Ideally, if you could buy internet directly from tier-1 providers cutting out the middlemen companies: Verizon, At&T, Comcast, etc.. this would have some benefits to the consumer.. but do you really trust these companies to do right by the consumer? Not likely.
devnuller

join:2006-06-10
Hollis, NH

Re: Do you trust last mile providers?

said by tmc8080 See Profile :

Ideally, if you could buy internet directly from tier-1 providers cutting out the middlemen companies: Verizon, At&T, Comcast, etc.. this would have some benefits to the consumer.. but do you really trust these companies to do right by the consumer? Not likely.
2 of the 3 you mentioned are classified as "Tier 1" providers. As far as other Tier1's (Level3, Global Crossing, etc) they normally are the exact definition of "middlemen" as in many instances they are in the middle of cheap wholesale (XO, Internap, Tiscali, etc) and Broadband

dummy_001

@firstam-reis.com

Bye bye cable - hello dialup

If they did start a billing by byte I would drop cable like a hot patato and move back to dailup for email retrieval.

Places like Yahoo, Google and Amazon would die if this comes to pass because nobody will be surfing the net searching for stuff. Everything is based on content. Will Google be paying my ISP for the bytes that they send. No more reading articles that have pictures or streaming video.

Sounds to me that she just wants to get her name in the news. In my opinion there is now way that the internet can survive with billing by the byte. BBack to the dark ages we go.
devnuller

join:2006-06-10
Hollis, NH

Re: Bye bye cable - hello dialup

fitting name you chose
russotto

join:2000-10-05
Collegeville, PA

Who is paying this lady?

Looks like she's been paid to bring up a few old talking points -- double-charging content providers, bill-by-the-byte, e-mail users vs. everyone else, "important" internet uses, etc.

And of course being a professor of public policy, her answer is, implicitly, government force.

Bah.
FLATLINE

join:2007-02-27
Buffalo, NY

Re: Who is paying this lady?

Nobody is paying her. Shes stupid all by herself.

wruckman
Ruckman.net

join:2007-10-25
Northwood, OH

NO!

Stop trying to milk everyone for more money! Communists!
--
William Ruckman
»ruckman.net

See 15 replies to this post

pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD

Per Byte Billing Kills Innovation

Why would ISPs invest in all this new infrastructure when they would be making hand over fist charging by the byte?
--
Only SHATNER is Kirk.

asdfdfdfdfdf

@Level3.net

Re: Per Byte Billing Kills Innovation

Good point.

The only innovation it reinforces is innovation in finding new schemes to milk the scarcity cash cow, i.e. innovation in billing, not innovation in the network.
The logic has never made any sense.
If scarcity suddenly becomes an even richer source of new revenue there is zero incentive to innovate scarcity away. Instead you endlessly milk the cash cow, do what you can to intensify the scarcity problem and avoid innovation.

Pizz
Hi

join:2000-10-27
Astoria, NY

Internet is fine

Commie China, would be a great place for this Kamarck human.

wruckman
Ruckman.net

join:2007-10-25
Northwood, OH

Re: Internet is fine

The last thing we need is more internet government.
--
William Ruckman
»ruckman.net

ipzedge2

@pacbell.net

New tech will fix this

I will have a C.D. made for and one that want to have
it when the company clean up the recording and will
up-load it so all can hear what and when this new high speed
tech will change the telco forever you will have 1.5 mb
for bluetooth enabled cell phones $9.95 a month home and office will be under $20 to use the bluetooth you will have to buy the home or office plan

See 6 replies to this post

Millenniumle

join:2007-11-11
Fredonia, NY


1 edit

I can see it happen without any "need."

The market may or may not ever let it happen, I really couldn't say. It would seem, though, the profitability of a per byte structure is always a threat to the consumer.

I for one would immediately cancel any and all services under such a structure, and not out of any kind of spite or disgust. I would do it out of fear because it is a simple fact that when I'm connected I don't know how often or how much bandwidth my OS and other software is using.

Imagine getting hit with an intelligent trojan that evades detection and sets up a little server and just goes to town every minute of every day. What would my bill be then? That's just not a risk I'm willing to take. I'm reminded of a certian $85,000 phone bill that recently made headlines.

See 11 replies to this post
brawney
Premium
join:2002-03-02
Frederick, MD
·Verizon Online DSL

What will it cost in the end?

What will be the cost be for the providers to deal with the increased amount of $54,000 bills?

And, by the way, companies like YouTube already pay more in order to get more bandwidth? You think a T1 costs the same as a T3?
Done_Posting
Shoot to kill
Premium
join:2003-08-22
Toledo, OH
·buckeye cable

Re: What will it cost in the end?

Speaking of DS3's, I can't believe how much of the telecom industry still revolves around them. TDM needs to go the way of the dinosaur, and all connections should be IP based in my humble opinion. It's almost 2008 for Pete's sake!

- Tate

--
Happiness is an OC-48 in your basement...

nwrickert
sand groper
Premium,MVM
join:2004-09-04
Geneva, IL
·AT&T Midwest

The reverse is true

If we switch to billing-by-the-byte, the Internet will wither and die.

If there is a switch to billing by the byte, then the first thing I will do is install AddblockPlus. I can tolerate advertising with slightly increases download times. But I won't have any advertising that is paid for on my dime.

The Internet is largely funded by advertising. This harebrained idea, if implemented, will dry up the advertising. And then what will be left?
--
AT&T dsl; Westell 2200 modem/router; SuSE 10.1; firefox 2.0.0.8

See 11 replies to this post
cornelius785

join:2006-10-26
Worcester, MA

i hate the idea

over all i hate the idea, why should people be penalized more for using their connection more? i think there would be drastic changes in the internet usage in the US. i wonder how long before people start suggesting Youtube videos are $X/byte, regular web traffic is $Y/byte, search engine A is $Z/byte, and so on. people are saying different traffic should be handled differently, why not also by different pay rates by the byte?

i hope the days of a 'free' (unrestricted) and open internet won't end anytime soon. the internet is a great resource to world and it would be pity to see it be butchered up by corporations, governments, or the oh so wonderful UN. there is an increasing need for real Net Neutrality bill that say what a corporation (or the government) can and can not do concerning the internet connections to the internet. i'm not sure if something like this will see the light of day anytime soon.

that being said, i think a SMALL charge may not be a bad idea for those that use an insane amount of bandwidth AND hurt other customers experience, but also factoring in the quality of the network (old equipment, slow network to begin with, etc.). this is more to keep it so that one person can't degrade everyone else's experience.
haplo2112

join:2003-05-12
Charlton, MA

Re: i hate the idea

Oh please those of us that hammer the connection 24/7 are just using what we have been provided. If the ISP can't handle a few people using the max capacity all the time then they need to fix their network. NOT charge us more to use it.
Done_Posting
Shoot to kill
Premium
join:2003-08-22
Toledo, OH
·buckeye cable

Re: i hate the idea

said by haplo2112 See Profile :

If the ISP can't handle a few people using the max capacity all the time then they need to fix their network. NOT charge us more to use it.
Wrong.

Outside of fairy tails, there is no such thing as a network which cannot be bogged down by a relatively small number of users who max out their connections 24 / 7.

But, What about FiOS though?

Know this -- FiOS, while a truly awesome product, still has limitations. I believe they are working on deploying 64 way splitters, so let's think about that. Even with GPON cards, the absolute max bandwidth available to all 64 customers at one time would be 37.5 Mbps (2400 Mbps divided 64 ways). Okay, so that means that all 64 users could use 37 Mbps simultaneously, right? Wrong. Of that 37 Mbps per user, you have to factor in FiOS TV streams too. Also, don't forget that some users already have 50 Mbps FiOS Internet service, and Verizon is exploring the possibility of 100 Mbps service too...

When you make statements like "they need to fix their network" you demonstrate your lack of understanding of basic networking. I'm not saying this to be a jerk, but there's another side of the situation that you either don't know about or refuse to acknowledge for some reason.

- Tate

--
Happiness is an OC-48 in your basement...
haplo2112

join:2003-05-12
Charlton, MA

Re: i hate the idea

Actually I do networking for a living and I am quite good at it with 18+ years in the field. However that isn't really the point.

OK, I have tried three times to write this next part and its complicated to express.

I am OK if my connection doesn't go at 5/512 all the time, I expect that network conditions might prevent that there are others that need bandwidth too. Thats fine gotta share. However if no one else is chewing up the bandwidth on my node why not me. If others are going full blast like me then its going to start to slow the whole network somewhat. In that case the ISP (just like we might inside a comapny needs company) needs to make network changes to help with the crunch.
Done_Posting
Shoot to kill
Premium
join:2003-08-22
Toledo, OH
·buckeye cable

Re: i hate the idea

said by haplo2112 See Profile :

If others are going full blast like me then its going to start to slow the whole network somewhat. In that case the ISP (just like we might inside a comapny needs company) needs to make network changes to help with the crunch.
I won't dispute that it's a good idea to allow excess bandwidth to be used -- in fact, I downright love the concept; it reminds me of "Powerboost."

What kind of changes do you propose an ISP make though? In my mind, there are two possibilities -- bandwidth management (traffic shaping), and infrastructure upgrade. Bandwidth management is a given and should be employed on every network. Infrastructure upgrades can be expensive, and investors want to see ISP's make the most profit with the least amount of expense. I know I sound like a broken record when I cite Verizon over and over, but Verizon's investors took a crap in their pants when it was revealed how much capital had initially been spent to deploy FiOS. Thankfully they came around and appreciated how revolutionary the product was (for the US anyway) and allowed rollout to continue, albeit at a more conservative pace.

At the end of the day, bandwidth, like most everything in life, is just a big juggling act.

- Tate

--
Happiness is an OC-48 in your basement...
Ulmo

join:2005-09-22
San Jose, CA
·Comcast
·SONIC.NET

said by cornelius785 See Profile :

over all i hate the idea, why should people be penalized more for using their connection more?
It's only considered a penalty if it is an extension of the idea that someone who uses the Internet is an abuser deserving of punishment. If charges are penalistic, of course that would not be held up by the market place. If charges are cost-based, then I assert that would be held up by the market place. It can definately go usage-based in that scenereo. I think you hit the nail on the head with your misunderstanding in pointing out the misapplication of the concept of usage-based charging in the first place.

not

@comcast.net

This chic is crazy

Here I am waiting for the hungry cell phone companies to just break down and flat rate for unlimited minutes and she wants to take broadband several steps back. How do these people (without a clue) get in these offices, let alone how did she become a Public Policy lecturer without having a clue as to where the public should be going in the future. Step forward, not backward people!

Here's her email, let her know how you feel. elaine_kamarck@harvard.edu

See 6 replies to this post

YUP

@comcast.net

inevitable

Most ISPs are content distributors.

I pay $40 a month for Internet and through it enjoy content through Hulu, Joost and Joox.net to name a few. I watch the content I want through these sites(PC hooked up to 42" LCD) and avoid paying that insane cable bill. I also use Skype as my home phone!

The cable company lost $85 of my prior monthly bill. As more consumers catch on and do the same, then tiered pricing or bill by the byte is inevitable.

I'll enjoy it while it lasts!

Transmaster
Don't Blame Me I Voted For Bill and Opus

join:2001-06-20
Cheyenne, WY
·Qwest.net


3 edits

From the Land of OZ


Dr. Elaine C. Kamarck
Dr. Elaine C. Kamarck is executive director of Visions of Governance for the 21st Century at Harvard University's John F. Kennedy School of Government. Previously, she served as senior policy advisor to former Vice President Al Gore and headed former President Bill Clinton's National Performance Review, also known as the Reinventing Government Program. Dr. Kamarck also has worked as a senior fellow at the Progressive Policy Institute and has written regular columns for "Newsday" and the "Los Angeles Times".

As you can see from her Bio' of this Wicked Witch of the Left lives in a fantasy world where The United States is the source of all that is evil, and is the cause of world terrorism. She helped re-invent government, which in reality was gutting the evil incarnate US Armed Forces. AlGore could not have invented the internet without her help. When George Soro's farts she takes notes.
--
Eat pork chops for Allah!

wruckman
Ruckman.net

join:2007-10-25
Northwood, OH
·RoadRunner Cable


1 edit

Re: From the Land of OZ

Re-invent government, and add more government to internet, re-invent the internet, charge people to death and wind up killing the original internet. Then people will create shadow nets and then we will have "Internets"

The last thing we need is more charging, taxes, policies, and control.

EFF HELP!!!
--
William Ruckman
»ruckman.net

not this user

@rr.com

In the trash you go

I hope they start charging on a tuesday so that i can put my pc in the trash on wednesday for bulk pic up because that's how i'm dealing with this new money grab.
Forums » In Favor Of Per-Byte Broadband Billing?page: 1 · 2


Sunday, 05-Jul 05:19:22 Terms of Use | Privacy Policy | Hosting by www.nac.net - DSL,Hosting & Co-lo | feedback | contact
over 9.5 years online! © 1999-2009 dslreports.com.republican-creole