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Indie Canadian ISPs Fight Back
ISP association files formal complaint with CRTC
Canadian law professor Michael Geist says that The Canadian Association of Internet Providers, Canada's largest ISP association, has filed a Part VII application with the CRTC asking it to demand Bell Canada ceases and desists the throttling of wholesale partners. As we've been following, the Canadian telco last week unexpectedly started throttling P2P on the networks of all their wholesale partners, who had been offering un-throttled service to compete with Bell's throttled Sympatico service. From the CAIP's complaint:
quote:
Bell's traffic shaping measures have impaired the speed and performance of the wholesale ADSL access services that it provides to independent ISPs and other competitors, to the point where the quality of the service has been degraded beyond recognition. In light of these effects, CAIP says "it seeks to restrain anti-competitive behaviour on the part of Bell."
The complaint is also trying to argue that the act of throttling requires Bell Canada closely examine the packets of network traffic that technically is not theirs, which constitutes a consumer privacy breach. Teksavvy CEO Rocky Gaudrault confirms the filing in our forums, telling us he can no longer comment now that the legal ball is rolling. P2PNet has the full filing for your reading pleasure.
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UT_CK
Premium Member
join:2008-01-28

2 edits

UT_CK

Premium Member

Independent ISPs Fight Back

Great news...

From the consumer point of view, it is now more important than ever, to continue the good fight and to ensure this issue does not fade away.

Regards,
CK

battleop
join:2005-09-28
00000

battleop

Member

Re: Independent ISPs Fight Back

Ok first off I am on the side of the Indie ISPs. I am in the same situation in the US against Bell. Now that being said why was this not brought up before they started to shape traffic. I think I remember that read somewhere there is language in the contracts between the ISPs and Bell that says they can do this.

AT&T/BellSouth has similar language in their contracts. I am sure that the other ILecs also have such language. The thing that sucks is that you have no room for negotiation in these contracts. It's a take or leave it type thing. So you have to sign them if you want to stay in business.

I hope that they indie ISPs in Canada make some head way but if it's anything like the US the great lobby machine will put a stop to it.

By the way do they have something similar to the Universal Slush Fund in Canada?

NG
@rogers.com

NG

Anon

Re: Independent ISPs Fight Back

Bell didn't let any ISPs know that they were going to throttle them. They simply started turning it on area by area. The ISPs figured out the problem either shortly before or just after Easter weekend.

adisor19
join:2004-10-11

adisor19

Member

Fight the power Rocky !

This is indeed excellent news! I don't expect much from the CRTC in response to this seeing as we're currently under a conservative government but i do hope this will raise the issue with more canadians and as a result with more MPs. If we tolerate this kind of treatment from big corporations, then we, as Canadians, truly are a bunch of sheep.

Adi

ShadPTR
join:2008-01-23
Whitby, ON

ShadPTR

Member

I hope justice is done

Rocky, Teksavvy, and for all the Indie Canadian ISPs out there, I hope justice prevails over Bell's corporate greed. I'm ashamed to have been their customer all these years.

root9
join:2005-04-08
Kitchener, ON

3 edits

root9

Member

About time ...

This is what I've been talking about all along.

As per laws/regulations, any user can use same arguments and laws to get full access from any Canadian ISP. You do NOT need to leave an ISP to get your rights. Stand up for them!

»www.michaelgeist.ca/cont ··· 811/125/ ... states only some of the regulations and laws pertaining to user rights. Whether or not any ISP tries to make up contracts that contradict the laws of the land, the laws of the land win. This goes especially for Rogers too.

In creating your own small or home business [i.e. john's or mary's ...] you create a level paying field where you will win in small claims court or any other. Doesn't need to be registered due to not making the biz tax limit. Charge them for lost time, aggravation, lost bandwidth, hydro or any other losses due to throttling or blocking or anything else they have done illegaly.

The thing is to actually do it and teach them a lesson!
Over and over if need be. The more you do it the more you will get in return and keep the blood suckers at bay.
simon726
join:2006-12-21
Ajax, ON

simon726

Member

just like the song...

Just like from the song:

"We're not gonna take it....We're not gonna take it anymore....." (or something like that).....lol

jsmaster
join:2008-03-16
Montreal, QC

2 edits

jsmaster

Member

Rental State

Other providers rent for most of the time Bell Canada's network. In counterpart, this is the mission of bell to offer the better service for their clients.

So, If Bell do some throttle on his own network, it could be legitimate to Bell to control this part of the network.

It's Bell network and all of the structure techs, and technology is provided by Bell. The others providers only do some invoicing and vice-versa at lower cost with different conditions.

Why doesn't Teksavvy built his own network ? Why all of this is relayed to Bell and customers yell about ?

If providers want un-throttled services, they just have too built their own network. nobody prevents them to do so

root9
join:2005-04-08
Kitchener, ON

2 edits

root9

Member

Re: Rental State

HAHAHA , nice try ,, i guess u didn't read »www.michaelgeist.ca/cont ··· 811/125/
or any laws and regulations. So you can be stubborn all you want but facts are facts and you can't change them.

And technically Bell is owned by Canadians and via investors ,, if need be Canadians will take Bell Canada apart and return it back to small companies ... will you have a job after this?

I find it very odd that a Bell Techie is using Cogeco cable when he/she can get good deals on services.

While you are here, how about you answer some questions:
1- what are the ways Bell throttles? [full disclosure please]
2- why can't Bell fix a problem in reasonable time [first visit to home]?
3- why is bell throttling when TCP has it's own checks and sums to handle such problems?
4- why customers that get free trial can't get internet up within the alotted time, then have actual time alloted as free internet service to test?
5- why does Bell overcharge per GB when it only costs 5 cents to 10 cents per GB?
6- why don't India techies understand english?
7- why can't India techies solve basic problems?
8- why do India techies cancel service calls to homes?
9- why can't Kevin Crull answer basic questions on these matters or get experienced techie to do so?

jsmaster
join:2008-03-16
Montreal, QC

4 edits

jsmaster

Member

Re: Rental State

Hi there =)

I'm glad to be able to answer all of your question about this. I'm here to make friends too I,m not posting comments to divide people. I'm very open to your opinions and I like that.

sooo here we are ^^

For the first Sub-question
**************************************************************
I find it very odd that a Bell Techie is using Cogeco cable when he/she can get good deals on services.

Answer:

The spool of copper at my residence is faulty, so the DSL signal is somewhat a little corrupted and I wasn't able to have more than 1792/324 down/up. I'm living in a old appartement and the cables are from 1970 and some ..
*************************************************************
1- what are the ways Bell throttles? [full disclosure please]

Answer:

Bell decelerates his services not to prevent the good functioning of network. By acting so, it is sure that all customers have an equal access in their Internet service without harming other users.

A DSL linecard have limits, same way to cable, but with different way. If all users want to download and upload at the same time, digital signal can clashes to each other ans then cause problems on the network. The line is independant for each user, but the signal travels the same cable , who's not sharing at all. Signal clashes or crashes ( call it what you want lol ) is not good. Simply think about a large road with a giant dinosaure step in. The road still large, but the dinosaure is even more bigger lol.

This is only to prevent abuse too. Bell won't shit on your face if you take 100 GB per months with Total Performance, but a users with 300-500 Gb .. Hmmm it is normal in a month ? For must people a fucking hard drive is 500 Gb..

60 Gb in a months, consider you take all your 60, in maximum ten months your disk is loaded with porn, spyware and malware ( I'm kidding with porn guys, but you know what I mean when we search something in a torrent site

The way they throttle vary. All torrent softwares send a signal to the providers so it can be limited tha way. No one check or verify your traffic this is ilegal, but the software itself can be identified.

Use limewire, it is not in the lists off apps who are throttled lol
*************************************************************
2- why can't Bell fix a problem in reasonable time [first visit to home]?

Answer:

Bell must do some test at the CO to determine the problem. They check the signal between the CO and the responsability line ( i.e the cables at the exit of the residence). with that, they can see the power signal and maximum profile you can get.

Most of the time, I don't like to say that but .. The problem is caused by a wrong shape of internal wiring... You can yell at me but it's true ... even at my house my wiring is somewhat shitty lol.
**************************************************************
3- why is bell throttling when TCP has it's own checks and sums to handle such problems?

Answer :

Refer to question 1 please. I have not the necessary knowledge to answer this question. =) I have my limits to.
*************************************************************
why customers that get free trial can't get internet up within the alotted time, then have actual time alloted as free internet service to test?

Answer : When you subscribe to a free trial, the approx. Date is 3 months. When the DSL is active on a line, to ensure that is no bullshit and the client won't only activate his service 4 months later. This free at the same time after 3 months a linecard for a customers who would like to have the service active.
*************************************************************
5- why does Bell overcharge per GB when it only costs 5 cents to 10 cents per GB?

Answer:

I can't answer because I'm not working with the president. I don't know how the marketing team find the price cover for the extra GB.
*************************************************************
6- why don't India techies understand english?

Answer:

LOLLLLL !!!!!!!! The most thing I thing that frustrate customers. India techs are paid to recived the english volume of calls ans they are soooo funny to hear. It's like John Smith in India who clais to be The John Smith.. In reality it was Zibagou Zouwala I don't know for the rest.

For that, the only way to change this is to call and make official complaints to Bell. If you are a large number who are very angry about, they will do something. I have already told this before to a manager.
*************************************************************
7- why can't India techies solve basic problems?

Answer : refer to Q.6 --> Maybe they don't have the appropriate training or it's their subcontract call centres in india the problems .. But like I said, we are better served by ourselves .. so all call center should be there in canada.
*************************************************************
8- why do India techies cancel service calls to homes?

Answer : Refer to #7 and #6 ---> maybe the appropriate training.
*************************************************************
9- why can't Kevin Crull answer basic questions on these matters or get experienced techie to do so?

Answer : I don't know but maybe you can ask his wife or children .. maybe they have the answers =) HAHAHA LOLL

root9
join:2005-04-08
Kitchener, ON

1 edit

root9

Member

Re: Rental State

Just as I and many have expected questions to be answered by a Bell Techie, not so funny though. So let me translate and maybe enlighten with as much respect as I can.

As a Bell Techie you can't get your own company to come over and fix your copper? Very professional attitude

1- With all due respect, you don't know and are just being a windbag like the rest of techies. Not good in front of all these people. And not funny either.

2- Bell can't fix the problems for home owners since most road techies are either sick and tired of the bull from phone techies, Bell management, don't know how, have time constraints put on them or just don't care. I've talked to many of them and this seems to be the answer. In my case it took 4 techies on 4 visits till finally got one that knew what she was doing. The service is still not right though.

3- As a Bell techie it is your job to know. Why don't you know?

4- Customers can't get free trial started within reasonable time since there's so many unqualified techies at Bell. setup and install should take no more than 1/2 hour. If there are line problems free trail must start at time when lines are fixed all the way to modem ON THE FIRST VISIT.

5- Bell overcharges bandwidth due to poor company management, lack of oversight and monopoly tactics.

6- India techies can't understand english and can't understand customers basic questions due to Bell management telling them so as a general practice. They read from a book for answers, therefore they are unqualified.

7- Thank you, first answer you answered correctly.

8- India techies cancel service calls due to be told by management to do so. Less service calls the better their service appears on contract renewal.

9- Kevin Crull is an import from USA and seems to be towing the line the likes of Comcast and many other US ISP's bent on degrading Canada's prosperity. Hence trying to degrade Canadian services.
BTW: I'm sure if he reads your answers he's going to be very happy with you forwarding me to his family for answers

Your score: 2 out of 10
Sad, very sad ... You get the extra point for actually answering. Thank you

En Enfer
This account has been compromised
join:2003-07-25
Montreal, QC

En Enfer to root9

Member

to root9
Bell always do things to make us HATE them more.

- We hate talking to Emily (310-BELL). They keep her. Impossible to skip her and talk to a human person.

- We hate the stupid beavers. Not only they keep them, they make you sick seeing them: all newspapers, magazines, banners on metro/bus, border of the road, radio ads, TV ads (also at 10pm sharp at the SAME TIME on SRC, TVA and TQS right before the newscast, every day). They send postcards adressed to your mailbox every 2 weeks in case you missed them... ARGH! Ad-Nauseum beavers!

- Except when being on vacations, we hate talking to foreign people on the phone from another country than yours, have difficulty talking english (or french) and have no idea that phone wires travels from the CO to your home using electric poles over here! Gawd, when you complain about the lousy service, all they'll do is trace the so-called tech you talked to and... well... (whatever)... but it never cross their mind that it's a whole communication problem !!!

... and I can go on with examples.

jsmaster
join:2008-03-16
Montreal, QC

jsmaster

Member

Re: Rental State

you are very frusrated and I understand you.

In a more funny notes I received the same card today. Very beautifull with the guy alone on the balance ^^ we miss you lol
acrufox
join:2004-07-14
Fort Wayne, IN

1 edit

acrufox

Member

Re: Rental State

.
acrufox

acrufox to jsmaster

Member

to jsmaster
*hands you some tinfoil*

Ooooh look pretty, and oh so shiny!
Shark_615
join:2006-01-17
Pickering, ON

Shark_615 to jsmaster

Member

to jsmaster
Wow you have no clue do you?

chronoss20081
Premium Member
join:2008-03-29

chronoss20081

Premium Member

OK what Political party supports NET neutrality

OK what Political party supports NET neutrality
and if a liberal MP says "HEY we got loads a youth here voting for us if we go that route"
then speak up.
A) 27% in one of the bi-elections means we are sitting on a fence
B) you irritate 73% eventually a majority of those will vote YOU into oblivion Mr Prentice.
Ya im kinda htinking this outloud to myself, you should too.
We need to get some liberals support this net neutrality and make that an election issue, if 27% is the whole of the base
and we even bring 20% more to the table wed have that MP, working for us. AND Not the 3rd party isps , not bell not rogers US the PEOPLE.
Time to get out the lead and yes talk and send letters to MP's spend one hour every two to three days sending antoher personalized letter.
when they see 75% of the mail both electronic and in the mail bag is on net neutrality, the gov't will know to change.
And we all know how HARPER likes to keep power.

Snickerdo3
Premium Member
join:2001-02-28
Niagara Falls, ON

Snickerdo3

Premium Member

Re: OK what Political party supports NET neutrality

The only party that has any sort of official position is the NDP:

»www.charlieangus.net/new ··· p?id=311