 Infighting At ISPs Over Using NebuAD Network engineers being ignored by execs with dollar signs in their eyes.... Thursday May 29 2008 13:50 EST I've had an interesting few months talking with individuals at a number of ISPs, each of which has either already, or is in the process of, implementing NebuAD user-tracking technology (unfamiliar? Go here). There's a few things to note, one of which is that I'm noticing an even larger disconnect than usual between technicians (who think the system violates user trust) and executives (who are absolutely blinded by dollar signs) on this issue. Obviously a disconnect between the MBAs and network operations is nothing new, but it's more pronounced with the development of new advertising opportunities. Many technicians absolutely hated the idea of ISPs using DNS redirection (ad delivery via page not found) to sell advertising, but their protests were ignored and the practice has almost become industry standard. Security and "clean 'net" functionality be damned. Internal debates over whether to use NebuAD deep packet inspection hardware seems to be even more intense. One ISP employee tells me there's been internal infighting for most of this year over whether to launch NebuAD. An employee for a second ISP that's preparing a launch tells me that everyone at his CO thinks the idea is terrible, have said as much at meetings and directly to marketing, but have been ignored. I think management here just sees it as money on the table. -Anonymous ISP employee |
"I think management here just sees it as money on the table," says another ISP employee. "NebuAd has a pretty convincing sales pitch. They know how to make their product appeal to ISPs and have plenty of marketing material." One employee tells me their employer stands to make at least $2.50 per month per user. For a small or debt-laden company (like say Charter) the offer is hard to ignore, even if they may be violating privacy laws and annoying customers. According to the NebuAD sales pitch to ISPs, only about 1% of users opt-out of the system. That's probably no thanks to ISPs burying the fact they even use the system in fine print. When they do clearly announce it, it's been promoted as a "service enhancement." One ISP has gone so far as to suggest it's as good as getting faster speeds. On top of the cash income, NebuAD tells ISPs they'll be provided with monthly metrics on the top sites visited, and even the number of times competitors' websites were visited. I'm told NebuAD is even able to build profiles of individual people using the same IP address (ex: users behind a NAT device). In short, the additional income and competitive intelligence gained easily over-rides any moral opposition to privacy implications. "It looks like we're moving forward with the trial next month regardless of how I or any of my co-workers feel about it," says an employee at one ISP. "I've pretty much accepted that at this point, so it's not likely anything I'll walk out over." I was amused to hear the employee is going to ensure they aren't tracked. "We have two upstream links to the Internet and the NebuAd spybox will only be hooked up to one of them, so I know at least for my home connection I'll be setting a static route to use the non-poisoned link," they say. "I don't want to go anywhere near it." How's that for a candid vote of confidence? One additional thing to note is that I'm told NebuAD is informing ISPs that they are working on a new opt-out system. As I've discussed, the current system uses cookies and only prevents targeted ad delivery, it doesn't stop your ISP from tracking and selling your browsing history. The new system, I'm told, will rely on IP address instead of cookies to opt-users out. My guess? You can expect every ISP in the industry to be using NebuAD technology (or some variant) within the next two years. I expect some continued scuff ups started by privacy advocates and annoyed customers, but I imagine NebuAD and ISP lawyers will stay one step ahead of them. Online advertising is a $11 billion (and growing) business, and it's been fairly apparent that the FTC's priority is protecting revenue streams, not consumers. |
 FFH5 Premium Member join:2002-03-03 Tavistock NJ 1 edit |
FFH5
Premium Member
2008-May-29 1:24 pm
OK, which ISPs already are or will use this technology?talking with individuals at a number of ISPs, each of which has either already, or is in the process of, implementing NebuAD OK, which ISPs already are or will use this technology? | |
|  |  N10Cities Premium Member join:2002-05-07 0000000 |
Re: OK, which ISPs already are or will use this technology?It looks like Centurytel will soon be one... | |
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KrK
Premium Member
2008-May-31 2:16 am
Re: OK, which ISPs already are or will use this technology?Gee. Isn't it great, when all this lovely NebuAD logs and data will be collected--- perfect for subpoena for things like divorce battles, custody fights, termination of employment, and other lawsuits and background checks.
Great. Just what we needed. | |
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 |  coastjam Premium Member join:2001-03-05 Stamford, CT |
to FFH5
they have all been using this technology and for some time. Now that they have the history to sell to the ISP's that is works is what you need to worry about. They have all been collecting data and tracking your patterns how else would they know this is a money maker. They tested it before they pitched the idea. Check your logs. The history is there. | |
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 shimonmor Premium Member join:2000-12-30 Sedro Woolley, WA |
Bring it on...Use FF and Adblock Plus. | |
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Re: Bring it on...I do. However, I don't like the idea that my browsing history is up for sale. | |
|  |  |  en102Canadian, eh? join:2001-01-26 Valencia, CA |
en102
Member
2008-May-29 1:50 pm
Re: Bring it on...Wether its from the ISP, DNS, or web servers (via cookie), all stats collection is for sale. This is the information age, and it is and has always been for sale at some point.
When you purchase a house... do you not immediately get flooded with junk mail ? Your mortgage information is sold. Data miners are out there, and will pay for trending info.
Where it gets touchy is deep packet inspection, and what particular information is sold, and what comes with it. I.E. Selling your browsing history (google) vs. selling information which ties you to which online bank you use. | |
|  |  |  |  swhx7 Premium Member join:2006-07-23 Elbonia |
swhx7
Premium Member
2008-May-29 2:34 pm
Re: Bring it on...The Google cookie, and other tracking by advertisers online, is not comparable to the Nebuad spybox. The difference is that you can opt out of any online tracking by ad servers, etc. if you are well-informed enough to know what to do about cookies, javascript and other tricks that websites use. But when it's the ISP doing the data-mining, you can't opt out without the ISP allowing you to, because all your traffic is intercepted between you and the internet.
And of course the ISPs can put whatever they want in their "terms of service" and the vast majority of internet users don't have a choice of any other provider offering better terms. This is called (by economists) a market failure. (The telcos and cablecos talk about "letting the market handle it" when they want to avoid regulation, but they do all they can to prevent competition.)
That's why we need legislation to protect us from abuses like this. | |
|  |  |  |  |  en102Canadian, eh? join:2001-01-26 Valencia, CA |
en102
Member
2008-May-29 2:51 pm
Re: Bring it on...True - there is a VERY big difference between session logging at the web site level and intercepting/snarfing/eavesdropping on all packets, and reselling 'some'  of the information. I think that even if there was a significant amount of competition, most, if not all would sell your information. Those that wouldn't sell your information would charge a premium... and you still can't guarantee that they wouldn't do it anyways. | |
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to en102
I think the more appropriate analogy is: you buy a house, and movement from room to room, what you eat from the fridge and when, etc., is analyzed by an outside party.
More to the point, there is no excuse for this kind of monitoring and privacy violation--even in the "information age." | |
|  |  |  |  |  en102Canadian, eh? join:2001-01-26 Valencia, CA |
en102
Member
2008-May-29 6:28 pm
Re: Bring it on...CEO's that are cashing in may beg to differ. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  rrz103RichardZ Premium Member join:2003-09-16 Canton, MI |
rrz103
Premium Member
2008-May-29 7:14 pm
Re: Bring it on...I'm sure they would beg to differ since they have the most to gain by violating customer's privacy under this scheme. So why would we consider their defense of this invasion of privacy when they are obviously biased and have an agenda? | |
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 |  88615298 (banned) join:2004-07-28 West Tenness |
to shimonmor
That doesn't stop them from collecting your browsing info and selling it. | |
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to shimonmor
This doesn't stop the ISP from harvesting your browsing history at the server level. | |
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obvoiusjoe
Anon
2008-May-29 5:08 pm
Re: Bring it on...said by SilverSurfer1:This doesn't stop the ISP from harvesting your browsing history at the server level. ALL isp's have this data anyway. It's called a DNS server. And some of you think YOUR data is for sale, when it's just the data collected from your IP address. | |
|  |  |  |  nixenRockin' the Boxen Premium Member join:2002-10-04 Alexandria, VA |
nixen
Premium Member
2008-May-29 5:35 pm
Re: Bring it on...said by obvoiusjoe :said by SilverSurfer1:This doesn't stop the ISP from harvesting your browsing history at the server level. ALL isp's have this data anyway. It's called a DNS server. Really? Show of hands from the people that don't use their ISPs' DNS servers? Granted, DSLR is a bit of a different crowd... | |
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obvoiusjoe
Anon
2008-May-29 5:42 pm
Re: Bring it on...said by nixen:Really? Show of hands from the people that don't use their ISPs' DNS servers? Granted, DSLR is a bit of a different crowd... Wow. You made a point, only to slam you fingers in the door with the next point. Nice. LMAO. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  nixenRockin' the Boxen Premium Member join:2002-10-04 Alexandria, VA |
nixen
Premium Member
2008-May-29 5:48 pm
Re: Bring it on...said by obvoiusjoe :said by nixen:Really? Show of hands from the people that don't use their ISPs' DNS servers? Granted, DSLR is a bit of a different crowd... Wow. You made a point, only to slam you fingers in the door with the next point. Nice. LMAO. The point being, "joe", that you don't do it with the DNS servers. It's done elsewhere in the connectivity chain - or is that too obvious for you? | |
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obvoiusjoe
Anon
2008-May-29 6:26 pm
Re: Bring it on...said by nixen:The point being, "joe", that you don't do it with the DNS servers. It's done elsewhere in the connectivity chain - or is that too obvious for you? Your point is off base. My point "nix" is that DNS servers store all this data anyway, and have been for decades. But people don't make such a big fuss over that for some reason. Now all of a sudden, ISPs are cashing (or caching could be a better spelling) in and you act surprised. I'll be happy to sit here and explain the OSI model and we can get deep with this if you want, but for your sake, for your children's sake, please know that nothing you do online is ever 100% anonymous or safe. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  nixenRockin' the Boxen Premium Member join:2002-10-04 Alexandria, VA |
nixen
Premium Member
2008-May-29 8:47 pm
Re: Bring it on...said by obvoiusjoe :
Your point is off base. My point "nix" is that DNS servers store all this data anyway, and have been for decades. But people don't make such a big fuss over that for some reason. Actually, no, DNS servers don't "store all this data anyway". At least, not in the way you seem to think that they do, and definitely not in the way that would be useful in the context of a "service" like NebuAd. In the normal functioning of a DNS server (i.e., not in debug mode - and even then, you're generally not so much storing it as logging it), the only information that is cached, is the data that is looked up - not who (what client) looked it up. said by obvoiusjoe :
Now all of a sudden, ISPs are cashing (or caching could be a better spelling) in and you act surprised. Only surprised in as much as ISPs used to prize their common-carrier protections. Things like this really put those protections into jeopardy. said by obvoiusjoe :
I'll be happy to sit here and explain the OSI model and we can get deep with this if you want, Sure. Go ahead. This is 2008, not the mid 1980s, but I can sit around for story-time... said by obvoiusjoe :
but for your sake, for your children's sake, please know that nothing you do online is ever 100% anonymous or safe. Ah, yes... The ever popular "for the children" argument. What next: NebuAd protects me from terrorism? You must have cried the day that Gonzales resigned. | |
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to obvoiusjoe
said by obvoiusjoe :
ALL isp's have this data anyway. It's called a DNS server. What does the DNS server have to do with it? You can use any DNS server you like, including switching away from your ISP's DNS server. What you can't do is avoid going through your ISP's aggregation routers. And that is exactly where the ISP will place the DPI appliance. You either go to the Internet through your ISP's DPI appliance, or you don't go to the Internet at all. | |
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 |  knightmbEverybody Lies join:2003-12-01 Franklin, TN |
to shimonmor
I do and will, but fight back even more. If this hardware is going to log all your websites, then I say generate so much "fake" traffic that it becomes useless. I'm already working on such a simple javascript right now that people can point their web browser to and it just loads up random domains over and over (like » blahabc.com, » googleblahbac.com, etc) With so much fake data, it would make the machine useless and probably max out it's logs with enough fake data. Get enough people using it and bring it to it's knees.  | |
|  |  |  knightmb 1 edit |
Fight Back Now!Here you go: » wanip.org/anti-nebuad/Just bookmark that for future use. It's still in development, but for now it just opens a little iframe, loads some random garbage site every 3 second. With cookies enabled, I'm going to add options that visitors will be able to tweak such as how many to open at once, fake visit counter, tweaks to random site name, how many seconds to refresh another one, pause button, etc. Maybe later a stats page of how much money they lost using NebuAD, etc.  | |
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Re: Fight Back Now! Website Screenshot |
Ok, here's my " stick it to the man" deed for today. How does it work?  Calls up a simple iFrame, makes it small (in case it hits a site that you wouldn't want someone to see) and loads that site up. After a delay, it loads the next random site. If you have cookies enabled, you can set options like how fast it refreshes, reset the counter, pause it, how random things are, etc. It's all client based, so it generates real HTTP traffic. The code is very simple and straight forward, should work on all browsers (tested it on Firefox, IE, Opera, Safari so far) The different randomization modes work as: Standard: Just a random 12 character site name, it might be real, might not. Variable Length: Like standard except the domain will be between 5 and 15 characters, so might actually hit a real site in between sometimes. Mix with Real Site: Basically as it says, you get random sites that don't exist and real sites that do (pop up blocker recommended just in case, it is random after all) Crazy Random: A mixture of all three above, so you don't know what the heck it will do. Maybe a real site, maybe a bogus site, maybe garbage. I was laughing the entire time I wrote the code for this.  | |
|  |  |  |  |  DownTheShorePray for Ukraine Premium Member join:2003-12-02 Beautiful NJ |
Re: Fight Back Now!Interesting. Your link will open up on FF, but on IE7 I get a redirect to a Gateway Google page. If I enter the IP address directly (obtained from the FF screen) I get:
"The Website You Are Looking For Is No Longer Active.
Please Contact Your Hosting Company" | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  knightmbEverybody Lies join:2003-12-01 Franklin, TN |
Re: Fight Back Now!said by DownTheShore:Interesting. Your link will open up on FF, but on IE7 I get a redirect to a Gateway Google page. If I enter the IP address directly (obtained from the FF screen) I get: "The Website You Are Looking For Is No Longer Active. Please Contact Your Hosting Company" I did find a bug in the code related to the random site generation, not sure if that is what causes IE7 to bomb out. Yeah, direct site IP access is disabled for security reasons. I did notice that it runs much slower in IE than all the others, mainly due to the way IE "stalls" on the invalid domains with it's own "domain not found" page. Can't help that in IE though, just the nature of the Microsoft beast.  | |
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to knightmb
Got a great name for this...... bandwidth waster :-P | |
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 |  KrKHeavy Artillery For The Little Guy Premium Member join:2000-01-17 Tulsa, OK |
to shimonmor
This will be great when the low caps/bill by the byte is started too. Even if you block the ads, you will still be charged for them. | |
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Spread the word...I expect this byline to pick up speed as more people are alerted to it just like the Comcraptic throttling of P2P. I also expect those ISPs caught using NebuAD to be in the same shit pile. | |
|  |  openbox9 Premium Member join:2004-01-26 71144 |
openbox9
Premium Member
2008-May-29 5:03 pm
Re: Spread the word...The problem is the same. Only a relatively small number of consumers really care and throttling, DNS redirects, target advertising, etc. Just like everything else in this world, until sufficient numbers take issue with specific policies, nothing is going to change. | |
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 dcurrey Premium Member join:2004-06-29 Mason, OH |
dcurrey
Premium Member
2008-May-29 1:40 pm
HttpsGuess all website will have to start using encryption to keep the site from being altered by the isp. Personally I think this type of thing would violate copyrights right and left. | |
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EFF?Does anyone know where the EFF sits on this issue? I figured they would've already pounced on this. | |
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...I'm not much of a "hate corporate America" kinda guy, but Google and ISP's sure are doing a good job of making a connection an undesirable thing to have.
Way to go!! Hope the money is good. And, of course, it is, so on it will go.
Not to mention my crunching budget, but tracking/selling along with Microsoft's plans of rented software have started me to push away from internet and computers. I have a cheapy connecton. Lightning speed is no longer appealing. I'd rather pay as little as possible for the shitty treatment I'm receiving. I buy only inexpensive second hand computers. Top notch hardware is no longer appealing in the face of software set to rape me.
Way to go guys. You make me long for 1996, Windows 95, and my old dial-up. I sure did enjoy owning a computer and being on the internet, then..... | |
|  |  ••• |  TamaraBQuestion The Current Paradigm Premium Member join:2000-11-08 Da Bronx ·Verizon FiOS Ubiquiti NSM5 Synology RT2600ac Apple AirPort Extreme (2013)
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TamaraB
Premium Member
2008-May-29 1:54 pm
Selling out How is this deep packet inspection spying, any different than a voice recognition system at the CO, recording/analyzing your telephone communications to determine what sales calls you will most likely purchase from? Oh, and then sell the data to telemarketers!
We would not accept this right? So how is it we are accepting this crap?
By accepting this, we are selling out to those who would violate our privacy for a Yankee dollar.
Bob
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Just Say NoUltimately it the owners not the employees that call the shot s. The technicians forget who they work for and the purpose of a company is to make money. On the other hand, best way counter NebAD is the consumer to boycott any company that sends ads using NebAD system. Money talks; if NebuAD doesn't generate any profit the system goes away. Let put it this was , if I find out your company is using my profile to send targeted ad, I will not do business at that company. They have lost my business. | |
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Pollute the data?Would it be possible to pollute the data by writing a program that, to the NebuAD box, looks like a browser? It could send out tons of bogus HTTP requests that would hide the sites your real browser is looking at by mixing them into the flood of packets. If enough users ran it, it would make the NebuAD data absolutely worthless.
If I were a programmer, I'd write it, but since I'm not, maybe someone out there could give it a shot. Call it SurfGuard, and every user out there would want it, even if they didn't know exactly what it did. | |
|  |  •••••• |  Jim Kirk Premium Member join:2005-12-09 49985 |
Jim Kirk
Premium Member
2008-May-29 2:58 pm
Since whenSince when do suits listen to engineers (ya know, the smart people)? | |
|  fireflierCoffee. . .Need Coffee Premium Member join:2001-05-25 Limbo |
History repeats itself"Network engineers being ignored by execs with dollar signs in their eyes...."
"serious disconnect between technicians (who think the system violates user trust) and executives (who are absolutely blinded by dollar signs) "
History is rife with disasters resulting from management's unwillingness to listen to their engineers. Sometimes I wonder why companies hire engineers when the execs seem so often unwilling to listen to them if their concerns are in violation of the almighty dollar--consequences be damned.
"One ISP has gone so far as to suggest it's as good as getting faster speeds"
Until marketers are held to the heat for desceptive marketing or perhaps develop some ethics people will never understand how they're being screwed. The edge for how far marketing can make claims always seems to be getting pushed toward deception. | |
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Re: History repeats itselfsaid by fireflier:Until marketers are held to the heat for desceptive marketing or perhaps develop some ethics people will never understand how they're being screwed. The edge for how far marketing can make claims always seems to be getting pushed toward deception. Many (not all) marketers are one step above child pornographers in my book. Their job consists mainly of social and mental manipulation of the masses. | |
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No to ESPN
Anon
2008-May-29 3:14 pm
Reality Part 2MBAs are the lawyers of the 21st century. They are OK in small amounts but should be allowed to reproduce. | |
|  |  fireflierCoffee. . .Need Coffee Premium Member join:2001-05-25 Limbo |
Re: Reality Part 2said by No to ESPN :
MBAs are the lawyers of the 21st century. They are OK in small amounts but should be allowed to reproduce. Do you mean should NOT be allowed to reproduce? | |
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 pnh102Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty Premium Member join:2002-05-02 Mount Airy, MD |
pnh102
Premium Member
2008-May-29 3:25 pm
Not Exactly Newsquote: There's a few things to note, one of which is that I'm noticing a serious disconnect between technicians ... and executives ...
This has been a problem in just about every technical organization since the beginning of time. | |
|  amungus Premium Member join:2004-11-26 America |
amungus
Premium Member
2008-May-29 3:27 pm
encrypted proxy?So is it time to start seriously considering a good fast encrypted proxy to everything?
This tracking ought to be flat out illegal.
Invasion of personal info at this level should be reserved solely for a PROBABLE CAUSE of inspecting one's communications, AFTER a warrant has been issued for a GOOD FRAKING REASON!
How do I determine if an ISP is doing this? Opting out sounds like the path of least resistance in such cases, but dammit, this is just so wrong.
So we have everything tapped by "the man" now, and now this, probably another tap somewhere else... when is enough enough? How much latency does all this insanity add to connections?
Glad to know the engineers don't like it. Good for them being able to totally bypass it as well.
As customers (we PAY for this? Wait, we PAY THEM to track us even more? To ADD further latency, and to ADD further problems to their own network!) this is an outrage. Only real thing we can probably do is to start using some serious proxies.
They can eat my encrypted packets that appear to only flow to a few random places if this is the game they want to play. | |
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The current administration does not believe in regulation.  A tale of two snoopers. I have a choice of two broadband service providers, Comcast and Embarq. Verizon does not count because of the 5Gb cap. I do not expect to see a solution to these privacy issues soon. Our current administration is driven by lobbyists and their campaign contributions. The legislative branch kisses up to corporate America to the detriment of the individual citizens rights. See how hard they are trying to balance copyright law against fair use? I would not expect to see any laws passed to protect individual citizens until the current administration is voted out. The only regulation that our administration seems to support is regulation of the individual for the benefit of big business. | |
|  |  NormanSI gave her time to steal my mind away MVM join:2001-02-14 San Jose, CA TP-Link TD-8616 Asus RT-AC66U B1 Netgear FR114P
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Re: The current administration does not believe in regulation.said by Mr Matt:I would not expect to see any laws passed to protect individual citizens until the current administration is voted out. And not even then. The Democrats are not immune to greed and corporate swag. | |
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It takes complaining to kill this stuffI work for a regional provider in the DC area and we were approached by Paxfire a few years ago. If you don't remember, they were the company that developed the SiteFinder "service" for Verisign. It's a different type of device/service that achieves the same end result. After lengthy protests from all the techs at my company, we begrudgingly installed the device in-line with our DNS servers. While it worked fine and did the job, some users definitely noticed and within a hours, we received several complaints. These complaints were from very vocal, angry users. After receiving constant complaints from them over the course of our testing, we finally convinced management that it wasn't worth it and removed the box. Keep in mind that we had an OPT-OUT, but even after opting these users out, they still complained on principle. I'd have to say that I agreed with them 100%, as did many other people in our company. I will agree that companies like Paxfire and NebuAD know how to market to the right people. They especially like to side-step the engineering departments and go straight to the top of the food chain, knowing that dangling dollar signs in front of the right folks will get them noticed. These products are great at what they do and there is nothing wrong with installing them as an OPT-IN ONLY service. However, throwing them onto a network without user's knowledge goes against the moral obligation of an ISP to provide INTERNET SERVICE - NOT ADS OR THE SALE OF CUSTOMER DATA. Paxfire calls us every now and then to ask if we want to retry the test and purchase, but the right people learned their lesson and we tell them to pound sand. Nicely, of course.  My advice to anyone who gets service on networks that deploy this technology is to complain and complain hard. Tell anyone else you know who uses the same service as you and get them to complain. Don't use FUD to spread the word - use the truth and explain the facts. I'm not sure if it will work 100% with large providers like Charter, but anyone with a lesser-known player can definitely rattle cages. | |
|  |  jester121 Premium Member join:2003-08-09 Lake Zurich, IL |
Re: It takes complaining to kill this stuffsaid by bleearg13:... Don't use FUD to spread the word - use the truth and explain the facts. Be sure to reference all of Karl's writings on the subject, since they're entirely rational and objective. Still haven't figured out how this violates the law when there's an exclusion in the law for specifically this scenario. | |
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Re: It takes complaining to kill this stuff Which law?
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 GlobalMindDomino Dude, POWER Systems Guy Premium Member join:2001-10-29 Indianapolis, IN |
SwweetYet another way to make sure we get "a better online experience"....yea right.
It was only a matter of time before we see this stuff wholesale, so can't say I am too terribly surprised.
I still maintain that regardless of the information going over their network, the data itself is generated by me and therefore is mine.
New service to offer, pay $10 a month and you get opted out of the tracking and said ads. LOL | |
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poisining nebuad?I thought the way it worked was to collect info about YOU and target you directally not just collect info about a group or demographic.
wont random linking just confuse nebuad into sending you random ads. I fail to see how this will affect them. There job is to get ads out there and as long as the ads reach you I dont think they much care if there targeting is a bit scewed.
I figure the more random links you hit you will just get more ads than you would just surfing normally
what I think people are missing is nebuad is attempting to target ads with pinpoint acuracy not the shotgun methods used today. the only thing you will poisen is your own demorgraphics which will not sotp the ads you get but will only change what they throw at you.
the end result is the same you are still being monitored you are still being targeted. the only real way to stop this is to have it declared illeagal but if people just sit here and complaine and dont start calling their respective government reps then the internet will soon turn into the worlds biggest sunday flyer,
"ooo look, viagra is on sale" | |
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Privacy_Matters
Anon
2008-Jun-1 8:02 am
Phorm DebateHey Guys The NebuaAD debacle, as you are aware, is very similar to the issue being played out in the UK in the guise of Phorm's Webwise. For any of you guys unaware - the European Union have more or less declared that the Packets sent, including Serach data, URL etc are the relevant Data Traffic as protected under EU Legislation. Additionally we have been watching the situation Stateside, as the timetable for implementation of Phorm includes the US in late 2010. We have had a degree of sucess, however Phorm insists with pushing for the implementation of the Webwise System, regardless of the fact tht illegal Trials were conducted, and a massive 'churn' of Customers from ISPs is expected if the system goes ahead. The emphasis for you guys who are opposed to the NebuAd and Phorm systems should be education. You should spread the word to your family and friends; create websites and forums as a central focus for discussion and protest. Compile lists of ISPs who will not violate their customer base with these systgems - and offer strong recommendation to use them. Lobby you Government - aim for the Presidential Candidates as NOW is the time to get their attention. If you get enough people to raise hell about this to them, they may well listen. We have some sites in the UK you may wish to visit: » www.badphorm.co.uk» www.dephormation.org.uk» www.antiphormleague.com» denyphorm.blogspot.com/» phormwatch.blogspot.com/» petitions.pm.gov.uk/ispphorm/» www.StopPhorm.bebo.com | |
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Privawhat
Anon
2008-Jun-1 10:06 am
NebuadWhen law enforcement or an individual conducts surveillance on you without cause there are repercussions - people go to jail. Why have so called 'privacy advocates' not bothered to sue these guys on exactly this basis? Could not a good lawyer simply compare this behavior to a huge listening operation pointed at every connected household in the US (to the disruption of commerce after all by slowing it down...RICO violation anyone?)?
And when told of the opt out options, could they not simply ask if that's the equivalent of hanging a huge sign on your home that says 'don't monitor me' which would be loaded with surveillance gear itself (you do opt out with a cookie after all, and who really knows what half the coding in those represents...)?
We aren't talking terrorists here; we're talking Aunt Sally looking up recipes and the huge increase in spam she'd see because of it never mind the workload going to be generated at ISPs trying to stop the ads they accepted $2.50 cents for...
I dunno bout you guys but my cost benefit analysis is comming out in the red. | |
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