Instead of SOPA, Beat Piracy With Better Product Cable, Broadcast Wants to Eat Their Cake and Have it Too For years the entertainment and cable industry have wanted to eat their cake and have it too, insisting they want to stop piracy, then fighting tooth and nail when it comes to making their content available via low cost, high quality distribution platforms. When someone comes along and tried to make an Internet video service that was innovative (Netflix) they've tried their best to drive them out of business. When the industry does deem it worthy to offer that content, they offer it only to customers who already pay an arm and a leg for cable (aka the TV Everywhere walled garden) in a misguided attempt to protect legacy business models. Danny Sullivan has an interesting letter to Rupert Murdoch urging that instead of supporting crap legislation like SOPA and accusing Google of being a villain, he might want to make sure he's actually competing in the space he's trying so hard to protect. Sullivan points out that while Murdoch bitches and moans about people pirating his content, News Corporation (and all the other major media companies) are doing their best to ensure that users flock to piracy by making watching his content as difficult as possible: Despite paying for Hulu Plus (and DirecTV), I cannot watch The Simpson on any device like my Roku player that is designed to play The Simpsons direct to my TV. I gather this is because you dont want me to buy Hulu Plus and stop paying for DirecTV, right? I get that. But its not like I have the same option to watch archived episodes on DirecTV, If theyre offered on demand, they are impossible to find.
I cant even authorize my Hulu account to know that Im paying DirecTV already, as I apparently could if I had a Dish account. Why not? Who knows. You or DirecTV or Hulu are all probably fighting with each other over rights issues. But hey, its not like I can get HBO GO on my Hulu, either. Despite paying for HBO through DirecTV, they dont let me enable my Roku with it, either. Sullivan doesn't even touch on recent retransmission disputes, which have driven users to pirated sports streams (News Corp. took this to an entirely new level of annoying by including a Hulu blackout during their dispute with Cablevision). Walled gardens, obnoxious DRM, and poor distribution platforms have been the standard over the last five years as broadcasters continue to believe they can stop piracy by suing everyone and anything, implementing Internet filters that don't work, turning ISPs into expensive baby sitters, and passing awful protectionist legislation. In reality you simply cannot stop piracy you can only hope to slow it -- and the best way to slow it is to provide inexpensive, easy access to content so that piracy becomes a less tempting alternative.
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 thegeekPremium join:2008-02-21 united state kudos:1 Reviews:
·Suddenlink
·NPG Cable
| Cut Off said by Karl Bode:In reality you simply cannot stop piracy you can only hope to slow it -- and the best way to slow it is to provide inexpensive, easy access to content so that piracy becomes a less tempting alternative. Why exactly this Where is the rest of the article. It appears cut off. | |
|  |  u71n44 join:2001-02-10 Fort Valley, GA | Re: Cut Off said by thegeek:said by Karl Bode:In reality you simply cannot stop piracy you can only hope to slow it -- and the best way to slow it is to provide inexpensive, easy access to content so that piracy becomes a less tempting alternative. Why exactly this Where is the rest of the article. It appears cut off. It wasn't cut off.. they just weren't talking about anything that was revalent to anything.. | |
|  |  |  thegeekPremium join:2008-02-21 united state kudos:1 | Re: Cut Off nah, Karl edited it after I posted. There was a sentence cut of in mid, eh, sentence. | |
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 mech1164I'll Be Back join:2001-11-19 Lodi, NJ | Yeah but, We are talking about the entertainment industry here. Logic and common sense have no sway here. They will be dragged kicking and screaming into this. Now how many decades it take that another question. | |
|  |  BF69Premium join:2004-07-28 Camden, TN | Re: Yeah but, said by mech1164:We are talking about the entertainment industry here. Logic and common sense have no sway here. They will be dragged kicking and screaming into this. Now how many decades it take that another question. Same industry that tried to kill the VCR because it was encouraging piracy and costing jobs. Now the same industry couldn't live without the home video market. Imagine where this industry would be had they been successful at killing the VCR? | |
|  |  |  | | Re: Yeah but, To bad this Industry even exists at this point.i am just to mad at them for their buying of Politicians and their outright lies.It is now to late for them and I am hoping we see more and more Indie Type films that have been financed and made without anything coming form Hollywood. It i now your time to die as you have tried over and over to harass us consumers for the majority of your existence. | |
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 | | Speaking of Hulu Plus... Just canceled it. Had been meaning to do so for months--just kept forgetting. Basically not enough current content to make it worthwhile for us.
ISTM the content-generators are missing-out big-time on this one. They could show a program in its original time slot, then toss it up on HP in a couple days, for those who missed it 1st time 'round. That's what we thought we'd see.
So far, of all the on-line content providers, the only one that's made sense to us has been Netflix. | |
|  |  thegeekPremium join:2008-02-21 united state kudos:1 | Re: Speaking of Hulu Plus... There shouldn't even be a delay of a few days. They should make it available at the same time online as when it airs on TV. | |
|  |  |  JRW2R.I.P. Mom, Brian, Ziggy, Max and Zen.Premium join:2004-12-20 La La Land kudos:4 Reviews:
·Optimum Online
| Re: Speaking of Hulu Plus... said by thegeek:There shouldn't even be a delay of a few days. They should make it available at the same time online as when it airs on TV. I'd be satisfied if it was available right after it finished its initial airing on TV. What I really want from them is a DEEP history of previous shows to be able to watch. Three or four previous episodes doesn't cut it, have all aired this season up.... -- Politics is a disease, we need a cure! In constant search for intelligent life on Earth! | |
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 |  | | The whole wait three weeks things actually hurt the networks from me. I live in an area where thunderstorms and tornados cause the weather man to interupt the major network shows for me. If you miss one episode of some of these shows you can miss big parts of the story lines so if I missed an episodes then I just wouldn't watch anymore of some of these series until they came to DVD or I'd just forget about them all together. I can find something else thats on at the time of the show within three weeks to replace it with. | |
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 n2jtx join:2001-01-13 Glen Head, NY Reviews:
·Optimum Online
| Supply and Demand I hate to be a party pooper but I have a hard time figuring out why the entertainment industry has to change anything. Piracy is still against the law and they control the supply. Other than being good business practice to update with the times, why should they have to change if they do not want to? If they want to charge $20 for a DVD and $15 for CD, isn't that their right? If you do not like it, DO NOT BUY THE PRODUCT! If cable prices are too high, stop subscribing and find something else to do instead of watching Jersey Shore and anything else on cable.
Under the current laws, you have a right to food, water, electricity, heat and medical care. I do not see entertainment listed as something the government will subsidize if you are poor. -- I support the right to keep and arm bears. | |
|  |  | | Re: Supply and Demand They have to change because their customers are beginning to demand it. Contrary to what the entertainment companies believe, the customer is still in charge.
Let me start with the obvious; bi-annual rate increases for programming are making consumers question the value of television. Add in a complete flood of cheap programming content in reality shows, and the value:cost proposition becomes even more skewed. Throw in oppressive commercial loads and it gets worse. So, to answer your question in this light, they have to change because people are beginning to find other ways to view their content that isn't such a financial burden.
Yes, piracy and theft are illegal and any freshman level ethics student can never come up with a way to rationalize the theft. But that doesn't change the stark reality that people are and will continue to pirate the content. If it is too expensive, that's the fault of the entertainment industry. And don't forget, the broadcast networks like FOX throw this stuff into the air anyway. I'm having a hard time feeling sorry for them when people pass around a 1.5 gigabyte file of the Simpsons recorded from the local FOX affiliate.
Next, appointment TV is dead. Let me restate that; appointment TV is DEAD. With so many possible ways to view content, and so many competing forms of entertainment, it is completely unreasonable to expect people to show up and view your product at a set time. Theaters see it, broadcast TV sees it; technology, lifestyle and the DVR have made appointment TV a relic of the golden age of TV. To continue to insist that people show up at 8:00 p.m. to view your show borders on delusional.
So, faced with these harsh realities, why should they change? It is because the consumer demands a fairly priced good product that they can watch on their own terms. To ignore the consumer's wishes and continue insisting that the world bend to them will only result in their own declining profits.
That is why they need to change. | |
|  |  |  | | Re: Supply and Demand But piracy shouldn't be regarded as competition for paid content.
That would like comparing working and robbing a bank as a means of earning a living. | |
|  |  |  |  | | Re: Supply and Demand Piracy is a symptom, not the problem.
The entertainment industry ignores this fact at their own peril. | |
|  |  |  |  kaila join:2000-10-11 Lincolnshire, IL Reviews:
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| It is because scarcity doesn't exist in a digital world where everything is infinitely copyable. Decent content will be widely available no matter what. That's the reality.
What the paid/pirated ratio looks like is dependent upon what the content owners charge and how widely they make it available. -- Jeff Howe Jeff's Blog - »www.ostjournal.net | |
|  |  |  |  |  | | Re: Supply and Demand said by kaila:It is because scarcity doesn't exist in a digital world where everything is infinitely copyable. Decent content will be widely available no matter what. That's the reality.
What the paid/pirated ratio looks like is dependent upon what the content owners charge and how widely they make it available. I fail to understand what scarcity has to do with gaining access to something without paying for it.
This is the #1 bogus argument in favor of piracy - that nothing tangible is taken so no one is harmed. Sure, nothing tangible is taken but the more people that see piracy as a harmless act without consequences is the more people will simply decide that they're not going to pay and they're simply going to pirate.
This has nothing to do with pricing or business models either. You can't compete against free, and piracy is relatively easy to do. | |
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| said by kaila:It is because scarcity doesn't exist in a digital world where everything is infinitely copyable. Decent content will be widely available no matter what.
There is physical scarcity which goes back to ancient times -- e.g gold, salt, diamonds. Then there is artificial scarcity which is created by man -- e.g. paper money, a velvet rope at a club, a subway token, or copyrights on works (let's say non-digital for the moment, like books or paintings).
Artificial scarcity has to have an enforcement mechanism. Paper money can be counterfeited but there are technical and legal means to thwart counterfeiters. A velvet rope has a big strong guy who won't let you cross it unless you pass muster. If you get a bunch of guys to overwhelm the rope-guider, the owner will call the cops and have you all arrested. If you hop the turnstile at the subway the transit police will chase you down. If you forge a painting and try to sell it, you may be caught and arrested. Or even if you try to give it away on a street corner.
Markets of artificially scarce goods also have people who try to get around the enforcement mechanism. Some of them are successful, most are not, at least if they try to do it at scale. One-offs are not hard, making an enterprise out of it is.
So what does this all have to do with your comment? Everything. To simply assert "scarcity doesn't exist in a digital world because it's technically possible to copy digital works" is ignoring all the ways mankind has built up businesses and markets and even economies around artificially scarce goods. There is no reason that it's not possible to create artificial scarcity around digital goods. It's happening all the time right in front of you.
Like in non-digital markets, artificial scarcity in digital markets requires an enforcement mechanism. To simply assert that there should be none, or worse that there CAN be none, is to simply deny the possibility of a market for digital goods. I think that is incredibly short-sighted and rigid. And I don't understand how any thinking person can go there. You are ignoring how society, governments, laws, commerce, and markets work. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  Rekrul join:2007-04-21 Milford, CT Reviews:
·AT&T U-Verse
| Re: Supply and Demand said by MyDogHsFleas:So what does this all have to do with your comment? Everything. To simply assert "scarcity doesn't exist in a digital world because it's technically possible to copy digital works" is ignoring all the ways mankind has built up businesses and markets and even economies around artificially scarce goods. There is no reason that it's not possible to create artificial scarcity around digital goods. It's happening all the time right in front of you. Except that it's not just "technically possible". Computers were designed to easily handle digital data. Copying that data has been one of the core functions of computers since they were first invented.
To create scarcity in digital files, you have to essentially break the proper functioning of the computer. To keep people from ripping DVDs or Blu-Rays, you need to introduce some method of keeping the system from reading data from discs, or prevent ripping programs from running, both of which are at odds with how the computer was designed to function. To prevent people from sharing or making copies of digital downloads, you need some method of keeping the system from playing those files, which is also at odds with what it was designed to do.
It's like trying to create a physical book that can only be read by one person.
said by MyDogHsFleas:Like in non-digital markets, artificial scarcity in digital markets requires an enforcement mechanism. Do they also require penalties that are higher than those for physical goods?
Shoplifting is also a big problem, but I don't recall Walmart lobbying the government to impose special $20,000 fines and multi-year prison sentences or to make it an automatic felony. | |
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| Re: Supply and Demand said by Rekrul:Except that it's not just "technically possible". Computers were designed to easily handle digital data. Copying that data has been one of the core functions of computers since they were first invented.
To create scarcity in digital files, you have to essentially break the proper functioning of the computer. To keep people from ripping DVDs or Blu-Rays, you need to introduce some method of keeping the system from reading data from discs, or prevent ripping programs from running, both of which are at odds with how the computer was designed to function. To prevent people from sharing or making copies of digital downloads, you need some method of keeping the system from playing those files, which is also at odds with what it was designed to do.
Wow, thanks for the Computers 101 lecture. 
So is putting material in paper money that makes it look different when copied "essentially breaking the proper functioning of a copy machine"? which has been "the core function of copy machines since they were first invented"? And is this "at odds with what it was designed to do"?
Or are you just building an argument backwards from your desired conclusion?
Do they also require penalties that are higher than those for physical goods?
Shoplifting is also a big problem, but I don't recall Walmart lobbying the government to impose special $20,000 fines and multi-year prison sentences or to make it an automatic felony. Not really relevant to the topic. But, I'll come back on your analogy with what the music distributors would say, which has some validity. Shoplifting one CD is a loss of 10 bucks or whatever. Putting that CD on MegaUpload or Pirate Bay is like shoplifting the entire store's inventory of that CD. Bigger crime. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  Rekrul join:2007-04-21 Milford, CT Reviews:
·AT&T U-Verse
| Re: Supply and Demand said by MyDogHsFleas:So is putting material in paper money that makes it look different when copied "essentially breaking the proper functioning of a copy machine"? which has been "the core function of copy machines since they were first invented"? And is this "at odds with what it was designed to do"? That's only one specific example and it would have made a better analogy if you had mentioned the fact that some copiers are specifically design to refuse to copy money.
But what if the publishing industry demanding a legal solution to prevent people from copying or scanning books? Coming up with a printed page that can be easily read, but which can't be copied would be expensive and virtually impossible. So far the only solution they've come up with for making documents uncopyable is to use black ink on dark paper, which also makes them very hard to read.
The only workable method would to have the copier connect to a central database every time you scan something to compare the hash of what you've scanned with a list of know hashes for copyrighted works and refuse to work if it matches something on the list. Of course such a system would have a high failure rate, false positives and wouldn't account for fair use, essentially breaking the core functionality of the machine, but hey if it keeps people from copying copyrighted material, it's worth it. Right?
said by MyDogHsFleas:Not really relevant to the topic. But, I'll come back on your analogy with what the music distributors would say, which has some validity. Shoplifting one CD is a loss of 10 bucks or whatever. Putting that CD on MegaUpload or Pirate Bay is like shoplifting the entire store's inventory of that CD. Bigger crime. You mean like the crime of leaking the workprint of the movie Wolverine a month before it hit theaters, causing the film to only make a pathetic $373 million at the box office? | |
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| Re: Supply and Demand said by Rekrul:said by MyDogHsFleas:So is putting material in paper money that makes it look different when copied "essentially breaking the proper functioning of a copy machine"? which has been "the core function of copy machines since they were first invented"? And is this "at odds with what it was designed to do"? That's only one specific example and it would have made a better analogy if you had mentioned the fact that some copiers are specifically design to refuse to copy money. It wasn't an analogy, it was a refutation of your argument, by pointing out how absurd it is when applied to something else.
And, you make my exact point by noting that copiers are designed to refuse to copy money. Therefore, copying money is, in fact, NOT "a core function of a copy machine". Because, look! I can make a copy machine that doesn't copy money! And it still copies other things! I DIDN'T BREAK THE COPY MACHINE!
Now, can I go in and bypass the technical capability the machine has and make it copy money? Probably, given enough time and effort. But am I doing this on a large scale, publishing my findings, and declaring to all that I'm doing this on principle and it's a good thing because I'm just enabling "the nature of a copy machine"? No, I don't. So why do you, when the subject is the Internet?
But what if the publishing industry demanding a legal solution to prevent people from copying or scanning books? Coming up with a printed page that can be easily read, but which can't be copied would be expensive and virtually impossible. So far the only solution they've come up with for making documents uncopyable is to use black ink on dark paper, which also makes them very hard to read.
The only workable method would to have the copier connect to a central database every time you scan something to compare the hash of what you've scanned with a list of know hashes for copyrighted works and refuse to work if it matches something on the list. Of course such a system would have a high failure rate, false positives and wouldn't account for fair use, essentially breaking the core functionality of the machine, but hey if it keeps people from copying copyrighted material, it's worth it. Right?
Making documents "uncopyable" or difficult to copy is a technical means of slowing piracy. The "legal solution" is the copyright law. I have no idea what your point is here.
said by MyDogHsFleas:Not really relevant to the topic. But, I'll come back on your analogy with what the music distributors would say, which has some validity. Shoplifting one CD is a loss of 10 bucks or whatever. Putting that CD on MegaUpload or Pirate Bay is like shoplifting the entire store's inventory of that CD. Bigger crime. You mean like the crime of leaking the workprint of the movie Wolverine a month before it hit theaters, causing the film to only make a pathetic $373 million at the box office? Again this is not relevant to the topic. But I will point out that "you made enough money, content owners, so you should not try to stop piracy" is just a dumb argument, unless you are an "occupy " type mentality who thinks that anyone who makes "too much money" should have it taken away from them and given to you.
As a side comment... maybe they leaked it themselves to stoke publicity! It could happen.... | |
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 |  |  |  |  |  |  | | said by Rekrul:To create scarcity in digital files, you have to essentially break the proper functioning of the computer. To keep people from ripping DVDs or Blu-Rays, you need to introduce some method of keeping the system from reading data from discs, or prevent ripping programs from running, both of which are at odds with how the computer was designed to function. To prevent people from sharing or making copies of digital downloads, you need some method of keeping the system from playing those files, which is also at odds with what it was designed to do.
It's like trying to create a physical book that can only be read by one person. Or trying to create paper notes which have artificial value and trying to make them uncopyable.
Imagine if the Government did that! Oh the horror! | |
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 |  |  |  mech1164I'll Be Back join:2001-11-19 Lodi, NJ Reviews:
·Optimum Online
| said by fifty nine:But piracy shouldn't be regarded as competition for paid content.
That would like comparing working and robbing a bank as a means of earning a living. Again all well and good. NOW REALITY: IT DOESN'T MATTER TO THE CONSUMER. Look at it this way. For centuries people have imbibed spirits and to great excess. Now when the Government tried to in the "For the betterment of the Country" use the Volstead Act to make prohibition the law of the land. Look how that worked out. Without a legal means to get their enjoyment. People went to great (and very illegal) means to satisfy them. It wasn't until years later when they realized what a mess they had made by doing this legislation did they repeal it. Same thing happening now. People will do whatever they have to if they want it bad enough. Legal be dammed. | |
|  |  |  |  |  firephotoKDEPremium join:2003-03-18 Brewster, WA Reviews:
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| Re: Supply and Demand You guys are arguing about piracy in relation to mainstream television with commercials. This is the television that broadcasts a show during prime time once and might replay that same episode 2 maybe 3 times per year on that channel again but only after months gap after the first showing and never on a regular schedule in it's original order in it's entirety again. The first time these programs air EVERYTHING is paid for and profit is to be had, anything else is just double dipping and extra icing on the cake.
Quit propping up the piracy argument from both sides with a misguided understanding of what's going on. It makes you no better than this stupid article with someone pandering to a 80 year old dirtbag ceo hoping to sway him on matters of todays technology right after he shows his ignorance by bitching about the results on a search engine as if it wasn't suppose to show what is really existing on the internet. -- Say no to JAMS! | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  ThrowDemsOutIf you can't convince 'em, confuse 'emPremium join:2002-03-03 Mullica Hill, NJ kudos:4 | Re: Supply and Demand said by firephoto: The first time these programs air EVERYTHING is paid for and profit is to be had, anything else is just double dipping and extra icing on the cake. Nonsense. Most prime time series never make a profit. Those that do make their profits if and when the series goes in to syndication, assuming they stick around long enough to be sold for reruns on all the cable channels. -- The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, I'm from the government and I'm here to help. »www.politico.com/2012-election/
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|  |  |  |  |  |  |  elwoodbluesElwood BluesPremium join:2006-08-30 HarperLand Reviews:
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| Re: Supply and Demand said by ThrowDemsOut:said by firephoto: The first time these programs air EVERYTHING is paid for and profit is to be had, anything else is just double dipping and extra icing on the cake. Nonsense. Most prime time series never make a profit. Those that do make their profits if and when the series goes in to syndication, assuming they stick around long enough to be sold for reruns on all the cable channels. They make money when they sell content to the rest of the world during it's first run. -- No, I didn't. Honest... I ran out of gas. I... I had a flat tire. I didn't have enough money for cab fare. My tux didn't come back from the cleaners. An old friend came in from out of town. Someone stole my car. There was an earthquake....... | |
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 |  |  |  |  |  elwoodbluesElwood BluesPremium join:2006-08-30 HarperLand Reviews:
·Cybersurf Intern..
| But piracy exists because content people want is not available where they live or how they want to view it.
Up here in Canada one of our cable companies teamed up with FX and created FX Canada.
What's on it? Older shows that FX cancelled (Lights out), non current seasons of SoA, and a host of reality shows to fill out the schedule, but I'm expected to pay through the nose for this.
I can't watch Boardwalk Empire unless I subscribe to the Uber premium gold pressed latimum package, I'd be happy to shell out $x for HBO, if I could get it by itself,without the bundled bs, to me it's worth it.
So the restrictions put in place by the media companies has forced me to look elsewhere for their content and they aren't legal means.
I'm not justifying what I'm doing, but the reality if I could get what I wanted to watch, when I wanted to (even if it means paying for HuluPlus)I would resort to those alternative methods of getting my fix.
Now you can say wait for the Blu Ray/DVD to come out. OK, so in the above example of Boardwalk Empire, I'll have to wait till next fall (HBO releases the Blu Ray/DVD's just before the next season starts) to watch the previous season and the cost is now higher then if I just paid $X/month to HBO. -- No, I didn't. Honest... I ran out of gas. I... I had a flat tire. I didn't have enough money for cab fare. My tux didn't come back from the cleaners. An old friend came in from out of town. Someone stole my car. There was an earthquake....... | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  | | Re: Supply and Demand said by elwoodblues:But piracy exists because content people want is not available where they live or how they want to view it.
Up here in Canada one of our cable companies teamed up with FX and created FX Canada.
What's on it? Older shows that FX cancelled (Lights out), non current seasons of SoA, and a host of reality shows to fill out the schedule, but I'm expected to pay through the nose for this.
I can't watch Boardwalk Empire unless I subscribe to the Uber premium gold pressed latimum package, I'd be happy to shell out $x for HBO, if I could get it by itself,without the bundled bs, to me it's worth it.
So the restrictions put in place by the media companies has forced me to look elsewhere for their content and they aren't legal means.
I'm not justifying what I'm doing, but the reality if I could get what I wanted to watch, when I wanted to (even if it means paying for HuluPlus)I would resort to those alternative methods of getting my fix.
Now you can say wait for the Blu Ray/DVD to come out. OK, so in the above example of Boardwalk Empire, I'll have to wait till next fall (HBO releases the Blu Ray/DVD's just before the next season starts) to watch the previous season and the cost is now higher then if I just paid $X/month to HBO. You have the Canadian Government partly to blame for this. They're so hell bent on protecting Canadian content that they'll cripple US content that wants to make its way to Canadian shores.
»www.media-awareness.ca/english/i···ules.cfm | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  elwoodbluesElwood BluesPremium join:2006-08-30 HarperLand Reviews:
·Cybersurf Intern..
| Re: Supply and Demand This has nothing to do with Cancon, but rights issues, they may have sold the SoA S4 rights to another company in Canada, which has put it on the shelf, so nobody else can have it.
My point was that I want to watch S4 of SoA,but I can't legally, so I'll find an alternative method.
CanCon is about creating "Made in Canada" shows, some networks (CTV) tried to do an end run around it buying the rights to Idol Canadian Idol or Talent shows (Canada has talent), both bombed horribly.
CanCon is to ensure there is something that ensuring that we keep our Canadian culture, otherwise the networks would just gobble up every available US program and become secondary US broadcasters. -- No, I didn't. Honest... I ran out of gas. I... I had a flat tire. I didn't have enough money for cab fare. My tux didn't come back from the cleaners. An old friend came in from out of town. Someone stole my car. There was an earthquake....... | |
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 |  |  |  |  |  | | Actually, everything *isn't* paid for. If you actually worked in television (as I have), you'd realize that the hope is that everything is paid for, but often times isn't.
When the next-day's Nielsen report hits the networks *and* the advertisers, a less than promised audience results in a lower rate for the advertising. These days, only stupid advertisers pay the rate card. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  elwoodbluesElwood BluesPremium join:2006-08-30 HarperLand Reviews:
·Cybersurf Intern..
| Re: Supply and Demand said by desarollo:Actually, everything *isn't* paid for. If you actually worked in television (as I have), you'd realize that the hope is that everything is paid for, but often times isn't.
When the next-day's Nielsen report hits the networks *and* the advertisers, a less than promised audience results in a lower rate for the advertising. These days, only stupid advertisers pay the rate card. I've been in the TV business for 6yrs, lower ratings result in what is we call Make Good, making up for the lower ratings by providing advertising elsewhere for free. -- No, I didn't. Honest... I ran out of gas. I... I had a flat tire. I didn't have enough money for cab fare. My tux didn't come back from the cleaners. An old friend came in from out of town. Someone stole my car. There was an earthquake....... | |
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 |  |  |  |  | | said by mech1164:said by fifty nine:But piracy shouldn't be regarded as competition for paid content.
That would like comparing working and robbing a bank as a means of earning a living. Again all well and good. NOW REALITY: IT DOESN'T MATTER TO THE CONSUMER. Look at it this way. For centuries people have imbibed spirits and to great excess. Now when the Government tried to in the "For the betterment of the Country" use the Volstead Act to make prohibition the law of the land. Look how that worked out. Without a legal means to get their enjoyment. People went to great (and very illegal) means to satisfy them. It wasn't until years later when they realized what a mess they had made by doing this legislation did they repeal it. Same thing happening now. People will do whatever they have to if they want it bad enough. Legal be dammed. Agreed. It doesn't matter to consumers because piracy largely has no consequences. Yeah, sure a few people get sued but the vast majority escape scot free.
It has come to the point where people view piracy as an entitlement. Sure SOPA was bad in many ways and I absolutely don't support it in its current form but no one who works in the industry can deny that piracy is a problem. | |
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| Re: Supply and Demand said by fifty nine:It has come to the point where people view piracy as an entitlement. Sure SOPA was bad in many ways and I absolutely don't support it in its current form but no one who works in the industry can deny that piracy is a problem. Actually, I think it is the industry with the entitlement issues... they feel they should be entitled to continue their business model by force even though technological advances have made it too difficult to control distribution of their product.
There are also many people in the industry who don't see this as a problem. There are actually artists who release their works to the world for free (imagine that!). Record companies and their shareholders definitely see this as problem; they would do better to look for the opportunity. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  | | Re: Supply and Demand It should entitlement to expect that you be paid for your work.
It should not be an entitlement to expect that you have the right to steal the work of others. | |
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| Re: Supply and Demand said by fifty nine:It should entitlement to expect that you be paid for your work.
Well if you are talking about the artists, then yes, you certainly can blame the industry for that. They have been cheating artists out of fair pay for their work for a long time now. Unfortunately, nothing in the currently proposed legislation addresses that issue.
I highly doubt you are talking about the industry itself failing to get paid... they are making more money now than they ever have before.
It should not be an entitlement to expect that you have the right to steal the work of others. Never said anyone was. I said it shouldn't be an entitlement to purchase laws that ensure continued success as a business when the free market dictates that the business should adapt.
Very strange that corporate America is always praising the tenets of Free Market Capitalism yet every chance they get, they make it less free because it benefits them. | |
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| said by CXM_Splicer:said by fifty nine:It has come to the point where people view piracy as an entitlement. Sure SOPA was bad in many ways and I absolutely don't support it in its current form but no one who works in the industry can deny that piracy is a problem. Actually, I think it is the industry with the entitlement issues... they feel they should be entitled to continue their business model by force even though technological advances have made it too difficult to control distribution of their product. This is just a bass-ackwards way of looking at the issue. You start by assuming that piracy is the way it is, and enforcing copyright laws is some weird new stupid idea (i.e. "continuing their business model by force".)
There is nothing new here. Piracy, counterfeiting, forging, knockoffs, fake watches, copying designer or trademarked clothing, copy machines to distribute printed content, etc. etc. etc. The Internet is just the next tool that does good but also enables easy copying in violation of copyright law. It's ridiculous to say that THIS tool is somehow unique and countermeasures are futile.
Rather than "continuing their business model by force", they are trying to assert their historic rights of ownership under copyright, as has been going on for centuries.
There are also many people in the industry who don't see this as a problem. There are actually artists who release their works to the world for free (imagine that!). Record companies and their shareholders definitely see this as problem; they would do better to look for the opportunity.
Again this is bass-ackwards. The fact that some artists release their works for free (or at least some of their works), and that some artists sell direct to the public through the Internet bypassing the record companies, does NOT lead one to the conclusion that free copying of works SHOULD BE THE LAW (or at least the accepted practice). This like saying some stores are online only so ALL stores MUST be online only. It's the choice of an artist or a store which way to go! Don't make it mandatory just because you happen to like one or the other. Choose with your dollars and your attention. | |
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| Re: Supply and Demand said by MyDogHsFleas:This is just a bass-ackwards way of looking at the issue. You start by assuming that piracy is the way it is, and enforcing copyright laws is some weird new stupid idea (i.e. "continuing their business model by force".) ... Rather than "continuing their business model by force", they are trying to assert their historic rights of ownership under copyright, as has been going on for centuries.
I guess who is bass ackwards depends on which which way you are facing 
Piracy IS the way it is... not by my assumption but by reality. If it weren't, we wouldn't be having this conversation. And they are not simply trying to assert their historic rights, they are trying to gain more and more rights to increase their revenues even further. It is what the shareholder primacy doctrine demands. The copyright laws have changed so much since their 'historic' times that they bear almost no resemblance to the original intent. How long was the original copyright term? How long is it now?
Again this is bass-ackwards. The fact that some artists release their works for free (or at least some of their works), and that some artists sell direct to the public through the Internet bypassing the record companies, does NOT lead one to the conclusion that free copying of works SHOULD BE THE LAW (or at least the accepted practice). This like saying some stores are online only so ALL stores MUST be online only. It's the choice of an artist or a store which way to go! Don't make it mandatory just because you happen to like one or the other. Choose with your dollars and your attention. Actually I was only responding to the claim that the industry sees sharing as a problem; not to say that because some artists share, everything should be free. My response is that not all of the industry sees this as a problem, only the dinosaurs. It is also worth pointing out that not all of society sees this as a problem; 'the industry' is a very small subset of society. | |
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 |  kaila join:2000-10-11 Lincolnshire, IL Reviews:
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| This is the digital age. I don't think anybody's asking for government subsidies or the 'right' for free entertainment, but likewise content owners can't and don't have the right to magically suspend the internet, in an infinitely copyable (non-scarce) & moving at the speed of light digital world.
My suggestion would be for content owners to consider the world they live in, and adjust. There are ways for them to embrace digital distribution and make a great living without playing whack-a-mole.
Attempting to artificially limit access promotes piracy, if content owners don't want to accept that, they really should be doing something else. -- Jeff Howe Jeff's Blog - »www.ostjournal.net | |
|  |  |  firephotoKDEPremium join:2003-03-18 Brewster, WA Reviews:
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| Re: Supply and Demand The problem is that when content owners are talked about it refers to the ones at the very top 99% of the time so laws and actions are based on what they want pushing everyone else out of the market even if it's one where people just want to share their own created content. -- Say no to JAMS! | |
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 |  | | They can keep whatever business model they choose. Heck why stop at $20, charge $20 mn a DVD but then donot try to slam down SOPA/PIPA down my throat to protect your outdated business model buying thug politicians | |
|  |  | | Because regardless of the legality of something there are consequences. Look at Prohibition - just because you make something illegal, doesn't mean you stop it. Or in some cases even slow it down.
They can choose to face reality or they can choose not to. It is not a matter of morals, unless you really think you can re-educate the entire human race. It is a matter of choosing to limit the effects of piracy by having legitimate alternatives, as has started to happen in the music industry or to encourage piracy by poor policy decisions.
Anyone trying to input morality or legality into it isn't thinking in practical terms and that isn't good business sense. | |
|  |  swhx7Premium join:2006-07-23 Elbonia Reviews:
·RoadRunner Cable
| said by n2jtx:I hate to be a party pooper but I have a hard time figuring out why the entertainment industry has to change anything. Piracy is still against the law ... why should they have to change ... ? If you do not like it, DO NOT BUY THE PRODUCT!
There are a few problems with your theory.
1. The assumption that whatever the law currently says is what everyone must be content with. In reality however, the law often gets out of step with justice. Sometimes it is perverted into a weapon for enriching special interests at the expense of the public. Then people are entitled to act according to what is right, regardless of the law. That is the only way reform can happen. (Voting, you say? HAHHAHAHAHAH voting is meaningless in a two-party system).
2. You're overlooking the harm to innocent parties. Suppose person A is not interested in Hollywood movies or other commercial entertainment, and has nothing to do with them - yet under SOPA, A could still have his website forced offline or his company bankrupted by a mere accusation from the copyright cartel.
The middle-man industry (which never creates anything, by the way) has always purchased laws to further its interests, but the more its business model fails the more extremist the laws it needs to keep exploiting the work of others. Now SOPA/PIPA was going to give that industry an arbitrary power to execute a commercial death sentence on any site of its choice, with no penalty for false accusations. It will be less painful for everyone if the business model changes to avoid the need for such damage to everyone else's freedom. | |
|  |  |  ThrowDemsOutIf you can't convince 'em, confuse 'emPremium join:2002-03-03 Mullica Hill, NJ kudos:4 | Re: Supply and Demand said by swhx7:said by n2jtx:I hate to be a party pooper but I have a hard time figuring out why the entertainment industry has to change anything. Piracy is still against the law ... why should they have to change ... ? If you do not like it, DO NOT BUY THE PRODUCT! There are a few problems with your theory. 1. The assumption that whatever the law currently says is what everyone must be content with. In reality however, the law often gets out of step with justice. Sometimes it is perverted into a weapon for enriching special interests at the expense of the public. Then people are entitled to act according to what is right, regardless of the law. That is the only way reform can happen. (Voting, you say? HAHHAHAHAHAH voting is meaningless in a two-party system). Then change the law. The Volstead Act was repealed. And as for voting, then why are plenty of countries without a 2 party system(Canada, UK, France, etc) and who have parliamentary systems still supporting laws against piracy? Seems the voting populace in those countries don't buy into the piracy is good theory either. -- The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, I'm from the government and I'm here to help. »www.politico.com/2012-election/
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|  |  |  |  jtudorXm 60's On 6 FreakPremium,MVM join:2002-12-07 Morganton, NC | Re: Supply and Demand said by ThrowDemsOut:Then change the law. The Volstead Act was repealed. The only problem with your statement is that if the public had not rebelled against prohibition in various ways, then the law would never have been changed would it? It is only because people found a way around the law that forced the government to reconsider the folly of their ways. -- Best of luck
"Do, or Do not, there is no try!" Yoda
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|  |  |  |  elwoodbluesElwood BluesPremium join:2006-08-30 HarperLand Reviews:
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| said by ThrowDemsOut:said by swhx7:said by n2jtx:I hate to be a party pooper but I have a hard time figuring out why the entertainment industry has to change anything. Piracy is still against the law ... why should they have to change ... ? If you do not like it, DO NOT BUY THE PRODUCT! There are a few problems with your theory. 1. The assumption that whatever the law currently says is what everyone must be content with. In reality however, the law often gets out of step with justice. Sometimes it is perverted into a weapon for enriching special interests at the expense of the public. Then people are entitled to act according to what is right, regardless of the law. That is the only way reform can happen. (Voting, you say? HAHHAHAHAHAH voting is meaningless in a two-party system). Then change the law. The Volstead Act was repealed. And as for voting, then why are plenty of countries without a 2 party system(Canada, UK, France, etc) and who have parliamentary systems still supporting laws against piracy? Seems the voting populace in those countries don't buy into the piracy is good theory either. How do you change the law? First it's very difficult to get even 10% of the populace organized (and Facebook likes don't count), and then ask them to "contribute" in order to lobby our governments to change those laws.
Even with that 10% I can easily be outspent in "contributions" and PR by the media companies. And even if I got some traction, those media companies would start looking for dirt on me.. OH look Elwood used (how they found it is another story) 2TB's of bandwidth last month.. what was he doing? That's alot of youtube videos...
The Volstead act was repealed not because of the people, the huge amount of crime and corruption that went on, and what it was costing the governments of the day a fortune (just like the failed war on drugs)to enforce. In the end they gave up and repealed the law. The difference is there was no "interested" 3rd party (Liquor companies back then, media companies today) that have a more vested interested in making sure draconian laws are passed to make us conform to them, instead of the other way around.
Speaking of Canada, our Government is trying to ram a copyright bill down our throats that is more draconian then the DMCA, and now there are stories going around certain interest groups (read media companies) want to include some SOPA like elements into it also.
Do the people want this? No, what is our choice? In 3yrs time we can vote them out and elect a government that will repeal that law (not going to happen, but one can wish). -- No, I didn't. Honest... I ran out of gas. I... I had a flat tire. I didn't have enough money for cab fare. My tux didn't come back from the cleaners. An old friend came in from out of town. Someone stole my car. There was an earthquake....... | |
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| said by ThrowDemsOut:Then change the law. The Volstead Act was repealed. The problem with this position is that lobby groups are determining the laws... not the people. And the Volstead act is not a great example in defense of your position because the money was on the side of repeal.
It is a common theme when defending the power position:
Don't like SOPA? Change the law. Don't like tax-free corporations? Change the tax code. Don't like having no benefits? Find a different job. Don't like the customer service? Go somewhere else.
Personally, I say If you don't like it... DISSENT!! | |
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 |  BF69Premium join:2004-07-28 Camden, TN | said by n2jtx:I hate to be a party pooper but I have a hard time figuring out why the entertainment industry has to change anything. Because times change, technology changes. Blacksmiths had the same attitude 100 years ago. The smart ones started selling tires. The "why should I change" ones went out of business. Adapt or die. | |
|  |  |  | | Re: Supply and Demand said by BF69:said by n2jtx:I hate to be a party pooper but I have a hard time figuring out why the entertainment industry has to change anything. Because times change, technology changes. Blacksmiths had the same attitude 100 years ago. The smart ones started selling tires. The "why should I change" ones went out of business. Adapt or die. This is not a valid comparison to piracy. The people selling tires weren't stealing. | |
|  |  |  |  BF69Premium join:2004-07-28 Camden, TN | Re: Supply and Demand said by fifty nine:said by BF69:said by n2jtx:I hate to be a party pooper but I have a hard time figuring out why the entertainment industry has to change anything. Because times change, technology changes. Blacksmiths had the same attitude 100 years ago. The smart ones started selling tires. The "why should I change" ones went out of business. Adapt or die. This is not a valid comparison to piracy. The people selling tires weren't stealing. you still don't get it do you?
Yes illegally downloading is wrong. HOWEVER unless you can put a sigificant number of people in jail or sue the hell out out of a significant number of people as to scare people away form piracy then running around screaming "Piracy is wrong" doesn't matter. People are doing it and if they want people to stop and start making some money off them they need to embrace they new technology. Even if it means making less money, because last time checked SOME > NONE. | |
|  |  |  |  |  | | Re: Supply and Demand said by BF69:you still don't get it do you?
Yes illegally downloading is wrong. HOWEVER unless you can put a sigificant number of people in jail or sue the hell out out of a significant number of people as to scare people away form piracy then running around screaming "Piracy is wrong" doesn't matter. People are doing it and if they want people to stop and start making some money off them they need to embrace they new technology. Even if it means making less money, because last time checked SOME > NONE. That's kind of the point of antipiracy legislation. | |
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| Piracy in large part is an expression of unmet consumer demand. The entertainment industry could treat this as an opportunity to be exploited or as an evil to be stamped out. They've kind of gone with the latter. Not really a good business strategy long-term, although they really do have to play whack-a-mole with the most egregious offenders just to keep it not quite so easy to pirate. See my thread "I agree completely" for more detail on how I see Apple as the biggest player in fixing this, at the expense of the entertainment industry. | |
|  |  |  See 6 replies to this post | |
 |  | | His reply is the solution. Stop buying.
If everyone including 'poor people' (1) stopped buying someone would come up with a smoother alternative.
Stop your service for 1 year or 1 month. Find something else to do with your time. Then if you choose go back to it.
Are they seeing themselves as needing to supply some kind of image to others and themself so they pay as much as $100 or $200 / mo when they live on $2000 / mo income.
Add to that the cost of cell phones for children of 9 years old who could get by with nothing, borrowing in an emergency or simply living closer to their needs. Cities built in Europe are 1000 years old and have a central hub. Travel was designed for 2 to 10 mile trips or to get from one place to another by walking or on a horse. In California cities were designed with the automobile with a range of 100's of miles. And so ppl travel 120 miles to / from work daily. The literal 'wear' on the mind threatens sanity and TV is like the drug that 'makes the day go by'. See what my dad said near the end of life. below.
I don't have the answers but other countries live on much less and are happier and richer than the USA ( Denmark is one) Their people don't buy cars they bike and use pub. trans. And they like it.
(1) The first reason cable was bought, when I was a child was usually to overcome bad reception. Later more channels brought more choices but in a city like LA, NY there were lots of channels. Now the reason ppl buy U-verse is partly for the video recording ability. I see populations as slaves to marketed products. At 12 years old 3 people family was bored watching TV. I chose to put on headphones and listen to music. In a few years I was out doing things while my 'family' sat and watched TV and not speaking. They never changed until 'the end' when my dad said, "I don't know where my life went" and my mom began to study the bible for 5 years until her death in her 80's.
I know we create our own 'jail' and slavery. But many others including companies are very willing to help us.
(1) Some acquaintances, I speak to about their financial condition, nearly always have cable TV when a TV with an antenna can bring excellent programming like PBS into their homes at HDTV quality. (1) | |
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 |  | | Eat Their Cake. Excellent posting Karl.
And Nelson was the icing on the cake.
However, I have one correction.
The correct term is 'Eat their cake and have it too'.
Anyone can have their cake and then eat it too but to eat it and then have it is the trick. Dave | |
|  |  Mele20Premium join:2001-06-05 Hilo, HI kudos:4 | Re: Eat Their Cake. said by workablob:Excellent posting Karl.
And Nelson was the icing on the cake.
However, I have one correction.
The correct term is 'Eat their cake and have it too'.
Anyone can have their cake and then eat it too but to eat it and then have it is the trick. Dave No, you cannot have two things that are mutually incompatible. You cannot "have" (possess) your cake and eat it later as then you will not have it (possess it) for future use.
Karl used the correct form of the saying/proverb.
»en.wiktionary.org/wiki/have_one%···t_it_too -- When governments fear people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. Thomas Jefferson | |
|  |  |  | | Re: Eat Their Cake. said by Mele20:said by workablob:Excellent posting Karl.
And Nelson was the icing on the cake.
However, I have one correction.
The correct term is 'Eat their cake and have it too'.
Anyone can have their cake and then eat it too but to eat it and then have it is the trick. Dave No, you cannot have two things that are mutually incompatible. You cannot "have" (possess) your cake and eat it later as then you will not have it (possess it) for future use. Karl used the correct form of the saying/proverb. » en.wiktionary.org/wiki/have_one%···t_it_too Excellent point.
And, my previous example on this idiom is not even the original.
"wolde you bothe eate your cake, and have your cake?" (John Heywood's "A dialogue Conteinyng the Nomber in Effect of All the Prouerbes in the Englishe Tongue").
So, I stand corrected.
My apologies Karl and all.
Dave | |
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 | | Why fight change? Well the MPAA argument is duplicitous at best. Why the hate against streaming when its what I already do in my household with my perfectly legal Windows Media Center PC and a wired gigabit network? No one in my house watches live TV. We all watch the recorded video whenever we want. The days of sitting in front of the TV when the show actually airs are over, done, forget about it. Stop trying to fight the wave of technology and customer desires. It's a losing battle. | |
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| what grinds my gears I'd like access to entertainment content. I love Netflix, and didn't see any reason to move to HuluPlus... but now after this thread, I'm probably not going to even try. As for all the "freedom/rights rhetoric"... bogus. It's over-played "justification/rationalization" for stealing content. It's not my place to deman KFC to share with me the "secret herbs and spices" just because I don't want to have their chicken.
But here is where I do take issue with the entertainment industry. If I do buy a BluRay Disc... full price... then I should be able to play it on any BluRay Player running whatever software I deem fit. If I want to embrace the OpenSource community, and choose to run Ubuntu rather than Windows7... that shouldn't preclude me from watching the BluRay disc I payed the entertainment industry for permission. That's collusion.
/dismountsoapbox. -- Immergruen (resto/kitty) on Nathrezim Server (US) Guild leader for Pride and Ego "You never truly know someone... until you fight them"
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|  |  KearnstdElf WizardPremium join:2002-01-22 Mullica Hill, NJ | Re: what grinds my gears And this is why Piracy will always win, The entertainment industry are power tripping control freaks.
What is even worse is they Penalized you for buying the media legally by things like previews, Anti-Piracy PSAs and possibly more than one FBI or international copyright notice that cannot be skipped.
I never understood the purpose of the FBI warning, Its like they are wasting my time to tell me not to pirate something when I gave the IP owners money to watch it. -- [65 Arcanist]Filan(High Elf) Zone: Broadband Reports | |
|  |  |  | | Re: what grinds my gears said by Kearnstd:And this is why Piracy will always win, The entertainment industry are power tripping control freaks. Here's where your argument falls apart - don't people who defend pirates always claim that the studios aren't losing money because pirates don't want to pay for the content in the first place?
So if they have no intention of paying, why should they be concerned about hollywood control freaks? | |
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 ctceoPremium join:2001-04-26 South Bend, IN | Better? Better system = RBE
RBE = Best Product | |
|  FutureMonMehPremium,ExMod 2002-05 join:2000-10-05 Long Beach, CA | Even with better product.... There are always going to be dead-beats that will steal it.
- FM | |
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 rradina join:2000-08-08 Chesterfield, MO | Simple Fix Regulate the industry and make it illegal for content creators to distribute and vice versa.
We all know the pain of a really bad decision to deregulate the banking industry. Capitalism demands continuous improvments. All it takes is one that cheats to compete and suddenly they all have to do it.
In order for the customer to enjoy competition, professional sports are played with a solid set of rules that are vigorously enforced by an impartial third party. Capitalism is just a different game.
I'm generally conservative but I don't buy the Republican message of regulation costing jobs. Since when did playing fair cost jobs? Quite the contrary. It will likely create jobs as corporations are forced to comply. Yes, there is the fact that off shore destinations without rules have an advantage. That's just a another game with the same need of a good set of rules. | |
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| I agree completely. Nice story Karl.
I would add that Apple, in particular, has been a huge player in dragging the media distribution industry into the Internet age by providing an ecosystem for distributing media (audio, video, book) in digital format at reasonable prices in a non-dumbed-down way, and in a comfortable, safe, easy-to-use environment. So much the worse for the content owners, they lost out on an opportunity. | |
|  |  | | Re: I agree completely. HAHA... that sounded like a commercial I love my (jailbroken) iPod but not THAT much! | |
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 | | Copyright is not a Right Oral sex is a crime in many states, but the law is no longer applied. Society as a whole has decided that it is not worth the expense and effort to be concerned about something that is not really a problem, anyway.
If the entertainment industry continues in its ways, the same will happen to them. Society as a whole will decide that copyright is not really a good deal, ignore the law, and enforcement will become impossible. This happened with Prohibition, as noted by others.
There is nothing sacrosanct about copyright. Congress could reduce it to one day, once a general consensus takes hold. The industry is going to cause a backlash with their refusal to accept the new reality. | |
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 trish2 join:2008-03-24 Laurens, SC | http://www.dslreports.com/shownews/Instead-of-SOPA-Beat-Pira My sentiments exactly; Put out a better product, or someone else will. You have to fight back and make them do it. | |
|  | | piracy Why dont all movie and television distributors make their content available online , charge an extra 3 or 4 bucks a month , this extra 3 or 4 bucks a months would be paid to the distributors .end of problem ....webwide netflix .I would gladly pay an extra few bucks a months to be able to watch current movies and television . Its that simple . | |
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