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Is Wi-Fi Bandwidth Theft A Real Problem?
What exactly can you be arrested for?
Recently, there was another arrest made in the UK of a man who was illegally using Wi-Fi at an unsecured spot. This has prompted George Ou over at ZDNet to ask an interesting question: if you have a Wi-Fi enabled Skype phone which automatically detects signals and it rings when you’re in an unsecured hot spot, can you be prosecuted for answering the call and using the service? As we continue to figure out the legalities of open networks and bandwidth sharing, where exactly are the boundaries? Of course, people could just secure their networks to prevent this problem. A recent study says that password protection isn’t enough to keep Wi-Fi networks secured but it would likely be enough to prove bandwidth theft in court if you wanted to.
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hopeflicker
Capitalism breeds greed
Premium Member
join:2003-04-03
Long Beach, CA

hopeflicker

Premium Member

Is Wi-Fi Bandwidth Theft A Real Problem?

NO
Warez_Zealot
join:2006-04-19
Vancouver

Warez_Zealot

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Re: Is Wi-Fi Bandwidth Theft A Real Problem?

I don't think it's theft either. I would rather turn the blame on the ignorant morons. Because of them it is easier for terrorists, pedophiles and child porn fiends to get content more anonymously.

We should arrest the enablers and give them some jail time.. I'm sure after that they will read the instructions on how to enable encryption on a router.

TScheisskopf
World News Trust
join:2005-02-13
Belvidere, NJ

TScheisskopf

Member

Re: Is Wi-Fi Bandwidth Theft A Real Problem?

Terrorists! Pedophiles! Child Porn Fiends!

Oh my.
Warez_Zealot
join:2006-04-19
Vancouver

Warez_Zealot

Member

Re: Is Wi-Fi Bandwidth Theft A Real Problem?

lol, that's all I could think of off hand..

TScheisskopf
World News Trust
join:2005-02-13
Belvidere, NJ

TScheisskopf

Member

Re: Is Wi-Fi Bandwidth Theft A Real Problem?

I was hoping that would be your response.

Have you ever considered the fact that every time the subject of an open access point comes up, someone uses those three tropes quite seriously?

I wonder who could profit from seeding Fear and Loathing about Open Access Points? Hmmm...I shall have to ponder this for a femtosecond...
hrickpa
join:2001-06-07
Reading, PA

hrickpa

Member

Re: Is Wi-Fi Bandwidth Theft A Real Problem?

how about breaking in a secured wi-fi network my neighbors kept cracking my WEP key to get access to the internet so they can download music.
Wi-Fi bandwidth theft is a big problem where i live.
people around here rather get high speed internet for FREE Even by cracking the WEP key. I'm currently using WPA2 AES encryption. keeping them out

TScheisskopf
World News Trust
join:2005-02-13
Belvidere, NJ

TScheisskopf

Member

Re: Is Wi-Fi Bandwidth Theft A Real Problem?

And that is a good thing. If you want to lock up a door, tying it shut with a piece of wet spaghetti is not advisable.

WEP is wet spaghetti.
Angerphile7
Premium Member
join:2005-05-13
Los Angeles, CA

Angerphile7 to hrickpa

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to hrickpa
Yes, I do disagree with what your neighbors are doing. However, this article, as far as I can tell isn't about that.

The way I figure the WiFi Bandwidth USAGE, is along the lines of trespassing... In order for you to trespass, you need to either cross a fence (A WEP key) or enter with knowledge that you're not allowed to. (No trespassing signs/SSIDs saying "PRIVATE"/"Stay off") Otherwise, how are you to know it's not a public property/land?

rebus9
join:2002-03-26
Tampa Bay

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rebus9

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Re: Is Wi-Fi Bandwidth Theft A Real Problem?

said by Angerphile7:

In order for you to trespass, you need to either cross a fence (A WEP key) or enter with knowledge that you're not allowed to. (No trespassing signs/SSIDs saying "PRIVATE"/"Stay off") Otherwise, how are you to know it's not a public property/land?
I totally agree. In this area within roughly 0.1 mile radius there are a number of free open access points: open-air restaurant, public library, and one covering a public park area that is advertised as free for anyone to use. (courtesy of, IIRC, a non-tech related business doing it out of the goodness of their heart for the community)

Since all these access points are so close together, all these free signals are useable with my laptop. Unfortunately, there are numerous ones with generic Linksys or Netgear SSIDs on various channels. How am I supposed to know which are which, when the hotspot providers don't even label them?

For all I know, when I connect to one of the Linksys signals, I could be hooking up to someone's DSL around the corner-- thus, breaking the law without even knowing it.
 

AJ5TT
join:2003-08-17
Friendswood, TX

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AJ5TT to Warez_Zealot

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to Warez_Zealot
Warez_Zealot “I don't think it's theft either.”

I ask the question then, what is it?

The owner of the open connection may not have the intelligence or knowledge to secure the connection but did he/she give you explicit permission to use the connection? Just because the connection may not be secure does not give you carte blanche to access the open connection.

It all boils down to morality and doing the right thing.

If you went to a business and lined up several items to purchase and the clerk forgot to ring up one or two items, what do you think? Moron forgot to ring up the item, his idiot loss my gain.

The clerk gives you back too much change, what do you think? Moron needs to learn how to count money, his idiot loss my gain.

A person leaves a camera, IPOD, wallet alone in a mall as a forgotten item and you find it and pick it up, what do you think? Why bother to turn it over to security, they would keep it for themselves, their loss my gain.

What do all the items above have to do with open WiFi access? Simply one thing, the right thing to do, morally. As a person who can recognize that a connection is open and yet the owner does not have the knowledge to secure it, does not give anyone the right to freely access the connection. You have a higher responsibility to inform your fellow man, to secure the connection, because you have the knowledge.

With the idea that “I don't think it's theft either” Can be possibly applied to the clerk who did not charge you for that one item, did not return the change, kept the IPOD because, hell, you did not steal it, it was given to you by a moron. No not, a moron, a mistake or lack of knowledge.

Years ago, I would push a lawn mower around the neighborhood looking for some extra money by cutting a neighbors lawn. If I were young, needing a few bucks, I would go around the neighborhood looking for open WiFi connections with a laptop. Have a prepared document (flyer) on what an open network connections means, demonstrate from the laptop how access is obtained and offer, for a few dollars, to secure your connection.

Bottom line, ask yourself if you were in their shoes (the guy with the open connection) would you want people accessing your access point if you did not intentionally leave it open? If you answer, no I am not that stupid. Your answer is then; it is wrong to use the connection. Simple as that. If you answered “I deserved it” then check your moral compass. Tell the clerk, you forgot to ring this up, you gave me too much change, I would like to turn this into lost and found. Do the right think because you know.
compton
join:2002-02-08
Brooklyn, NY

compton

Member

Re: Is Wi-Fi Bandwidth Theft A Real Problem?

said by AJ5TT:

Warez_Zealot “I don't think it's theft either.”

I ask the question then, what is it?

The owner of the open connection may not have the intelligence or knowledge to secure the connection but did he/she give you explicit permission to use the connection? Just because the connection may not be secure does not give you carte blanche to access the open connection.

It all boils down to morality and doing the right thing.

How do we know the intent of the owner? There are many people who knowingly and willingly share their wifi. There is a company (FON) that gives away free wireless routers on the condition that you share your bandwidth. I sent for and receive one (learned about it from this site). I was going to re-flash it with a 3rd party firmware; so, I don't have to share my wifi connection, but I haven't gotten around to it. The only way we can tell intention is if the wifi hot spot is secured.

AJ5TT
join:2003-08-17
Friendswood, TX

AJ5TT

Member

Re: Is Wi-Fi Bandwidth Theft A Real Problem?

said by compton:


How do we know the intent of the owner?
You know the intent by reasonable assumption. If you had a FON device or a wireless router, what would you do to invite people to use the connection? You may include FON in the SSID, Open, or Free. Even join a group that advertises your open connection on the internet. If you find an open connection and the SSID is LINKSYS (for example) what would your reasonable assumption be?

The people who visit this web site, generally, would make an educated attempt to advertise that their hot spot is open. This is because you and I have the knowledge on how to intentionally give away access. We also can recognize a hot spot where the user does not have the knowledge to secure a network connection, ie LINKSYS as the SSID.

If by chance you find an open connection and for one split second think that this idiot left his connection open, I can see his computer and printer, then you know it is wrong. Why? Because you have more knowledge of networking and WiFi setup then the average person. If it is wrong then it is not morally correct to freely use the connection.

canesfan2001
join:2003-02-04
Hialeah, FL

1 recommendation

canesfan2001

Member

Re: Is Wi-Fi Bandwidth Theft A Real Problem?

Remember that you are responding this way to someone who is justifying using open access points by saying he got a free router on the condition that he share access and intends to put 3rd party firmware on it to prevent such access. He's a thief.
compton
join:2002-02-08
Brooklyn, NY

compton

Member

Re: Is Wi-Fi Bandwidth Theft A Real Problem?

said by canesfan2001:

Remember that you are responding this way to someone who is justifying using open access points by saying he got a free router on the condition that he share access and intends to put 3rd party firmware on it to prevent such access. He's a thief.
Lol, not at all. Most likely FON will send me a bill for the true value of the router. The point of hacking the FON is nothing more than a hobby. I already have a pretty good wireless router which I payed $60 for. Since, I have comcrap I can't afford to share my bandwidth.

Uncle Paul
join:2003-02-04
USA

Uncle Paul to Warez_Zealot

Member

to Warez_Zealot
said by Warez_Zealot:

I don't think it's theft either.
Hmmm even if I leave my keys in the car and the motor running, you still don't have the right to jump in and go for a joy ride.

pokeyhauntus
@swbell.net

pokeyhauntus

Anon

Re: Is Wi-Fi Bandwidth Theft A Real Problem?

Is it fair to compare a running car, some un-scanned groceries and a found wallet to that of feral signal?

AJ5TT
join:2003-08-17
Friendswood, TX

AJ5TT

Member

Re: Is Wi-Fi Bandwidth Theft A Real Problem?

said by pokeyhauntus :

Is it fair to compare a running car, some un-scanned groceries and a found wallet to that of feral signal?
Yes. When you go beyond just a feral signal to actually connecting and using for personal gain. You are taking something that you may have reasonable knowledge that it does not belong to you believe the owner did not have intention to leave the connection open. All the items in common know what morally is right or wrong. On the other hand, if the SSID is advertised properly and you can reasonably assume it is a free open connection then by all means use the connection. Would you intentionally setup a free open connection with LINKSYS as the SSID?
Kearnstd
Space Elf
Premium Member
join:2002-01-22
Mullica Hill, NJ

Kearnstd to hopeflicker

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to hopeflicker
hard part with unsecured wifi is many machines will see that open AP and just lock on without asking. now to use that is a gray area but i see it this way if you are just surfing the net, checking email maybe a session of WoW then its no harm no foul as you arent sapping the link that hard.

jay608
Going Nucking Futs
join:2007-01-22
Homewood, IL

jay608

Member

Only for those that leave thier network open.

Jovi
Premium Member
join:2000-02-24
Mount Joy, PA

Jovi

Premium Member

Re: Is Wi-Fi Bandwidth Theft A Real Problem?

said by jay608:

Only for those that leave thier network open.
Indeed. It is theft if you break into a secured connection only. Everything else is free airwaves IMHO. And do not try the "Do you leave your door open argument".

knightry
I'm Not Fat, I'm Festively Plump
join:2002-05-06
San Jose, CA

1 recommendation

knightry

Member

Re: Is Wi-Fi Bandwidth Theft A Real Problem?

Why can't we use that argument? If someone leaves their door unlocked, is it not still theft if you go through that door and take something? It's one thing if you have to have the key (ie their password) to get in the door, but it it's just open...
jjeffeory
jjeffeory
join:2002-12-04
Bloomington, IN

jjeffeory

Member

Re: Is Wi-Fi Bandwidth Theft A Real Problem?

If you set your trash outside people are free to pillage through it. You've basically abandoned the trash. The police do it, PI's do it, and people stealing your identity do it, but it is still legal. You send your unsecured noise out into the ether, you're putting out garbage. Some people might take it.

Coffee shops still do it. In an urban area, it may be difficult to know where the signal is from.

Also, I had a secured network, and a unsecured, bandwidth limited network I let people use in a pinch.... This is stupid. IF you don't want people to use your WIFI, secure it. If you don't know how, have someone do it for you.

woody7
Premium Member
join:2000-10-13
Torrance, CA

woody7

Premium Member

Re: Is Wi-Fi Bandwidth Theft A Real Problem?

It is illegal to go through the trash in the city I live in . Municipal code violation, and if not mistaken passed an appeal. I had a business in Los Angeles county area, and caught a shoplifter and when prosecuted he claimed that he found it outside the door, the judge then reminded him that according to law he needed to turn it in to the police. Bottom line, if you aren't paying for it, it is theft. You can try and rationalize it anyway you want. I choose to let people use my signal also, but if it becomes a problem, will lock down.
b10010011
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join:2004-09-07
united state

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b10010011 to Jovi

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said by Jovi:

Indeed. It is theft if you break into a secured connection only. Everything else is free airwaves IMHO. And do not try the "Do you leave your door open argument".
But it's still trespass even if you left the door open.

Also it could be construed as theft of service if say you are using someones cable connection through their open access point.

S_engineer
Premium Member
join:2007-05-16
Chicago, IL

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S_engineer

Premium Member

Re: Is Wi-Fi Bandwidth Theft A Real Problem?

How about this..............
Your wireless AP, beit through cable or DSL, overlaps onto my property. Without my permission that is trespassing. Your service is on my property without my permission!
So I should give you a portion of my property tax bill because you feel that you have the right to encroach upon it!
Furthermore, if you use wireless N, then you as my neighbor, will have real problems...

This just means Geek Squad will lobby for laws that make them the sole guarantor of secure, non-encroachable wireless networks....

This whole discussion is stupid!
b10010011
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join:2004-09-07
united state

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b10010011

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Re: Is Wi-Fi Bandwidth Theft A Real Problem?

said by S_engineer:

How about this..............
Your wireless AP, beit through cable or DSL, overlaps onto my property. Without my permission that is trespassing. Your service is on my property without my permission! So I should give you a portion of my property tax bill because you feel that you have the right to encroach upon it!

Sorry that argument does not work.

Otherwise it would be legal to steal satellite TV since their signal is landing on your property.

That was my bosses argument back in the 80's when he was "chipping" videocypher-II's. (Keep their signal off my dish if they don't want me watching it.) He found out different

But go ahead and send Direct TV their share of your property taxes and see how much of it they will pay.

S_engineer
Premium Member
join:2007-05-16
Chicago, IL

S_engineer

Premium Member

Re: Is Wi-Fi Bandwidth Theft A Real Problem?

yes, the argument does work because the theft of satellite requires intent (you know, the process to think about what your going to steal). if I open my laptop to do work, and it automatically connects me to an unsecured network, well then it's not stealing. the fact that its on my property further means that i wasn't intending on stealing.

and you should remember your argument when a N network knocks out your G!
b10010011
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united state

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b10010011

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Re: Is Wi-Fi Bandwidth Theft A Real Problem?

said by S_engineer:

yes, the argument does work because the theft of satellite requires intent (you know, the process to think about what your going to steal). if I open my laptop to do work, and it automatically connects me to an unsecured network, well then it's not stealing. the fact that its on my property further means that i wasn't intending on stealing.

But if you use that automatically connected access point then you are stealing the service. Ignorance of the law is not a defense. Specially since we both know how to disable automatic connections and check to make sure we are on our own network.

johnny567
@12.182.115.x

johnny567

Anon

Re: Is Wi-Fi Bandwidth Theft A Real Problem?

Remind me, what law says I can't access someones unsecured wireless internet?
b10010011
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b10010011

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Re: Is Wi-Fi Bandwidth Theft A Real Problem?

said by johnny567 :

Remind me, what law says I can't access someones unsecured wireless internet?
It is possible for you to be charged with "theft of service" for using someone else's internet connection with out permission.

Not to mention various computer trespass laws that could be used against you.

I am just throwing stuff out there to show it's not as cut and dried as people think.
ncbill
Premium Member
join:2007-01-23
Winston Salem, NC

ncbill

Premium Member

Re: Is Wi-Fi Bandwidth Theft A Real Problem?

As this and other articles in the same vein note, the people arrested admitted to the arresting officer that they were using an internet connection not their own.

Keep something up that looks like a work product (e.g. a spreadsheet), don't admit anything, and you won't be arrested.

If a police officer asks you directly "hey, are you bogarting somebody else's wireless internet?" the correct response is NONE AT ALL.

Use a little common sense if you choose to venture into this gray area.
jjeffeory
jjeffeory
join:2002-12-04
Bloomington, IN

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Intent is an improtant concept to know about the law... You should learn about that before you say what you did.

Dezbend
MVM
join:2001-04-20

Dezbend to S_engineer

MVM

to S_engineer
Wait!!! Earlier the argument (not from you) was not knowing how to secure my network means I am purposefully allowing sharing.

Now you are saying that not knowing how to connect to your own network means that you are not doing it intentionally.

so,

No knowledge of how to secure a network= purposeful sharing
No knowledge of how to connect to a specific network = not purposeful sharing

Are you being ironic or do you really not know what your router is named?

b62141
join:2003-04-27
Hagatna, GU

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Member

to b10010011
LOL, I like the analogy of a Wi-Fi signal trespassing into my living room. If it attacks me, I’ll steal it!

Basically, stealing a persons Wi-FI signal won’t cause much concern except for slowing down the originators browsing especially if they load up his router by downloading all the time. If one were to try and change the WEP key, the owner would be tipped off and simply change it again.

The old slogan, “Don’t copy that Floppy” is simply stupidity in this modern world of corporate thieves who steal from us daily.

Goldfinger32
@comcast.net

Goldfinger32 to b10010011

Anon

to b10010011
Thats not entirely true. The FCC has ruled that a signal encroaching upon property can be used by the owner of the property, which is why satellite signals are encrypted (scrambled). This is the equivalent of securing a wireless network, thereby making it clear that a theft has occurred, as affirmative steps have been taken to 'unlock' it.
TACSPEED
Premium Member
join:2001-04-14
Tacoma, WA

TACSPEED to b10010011

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to b10010011
But is it trespass if the door is not on your own property?

There are three unsecured wireless signals that I can access within my own house right now. So who's trespassing now?

I say if the signal is unsecured and the signal is being received off the broadcaster's property, then it is not trespass or any other theft.
SylphFi
Premium Member
join:2007-06-07
Moses Lake, WA

SylphFi

Premium Member

Re: Is Wi-Fi Bandwidth Theft A Real Problem?

But if you send a signal back, then you are trespassing on his property. Go ahead and sniff all you want (Ethereal, Netstumbler, etc), but as soon as you connect, you are violating your own argument.

duder
@comcast.net

duder

Anon

Re: Is Wi-Fi Bandwidth Theft A Real Problem?

But the other guy already extended the arm, you just shook its hand. It's basically a silent agreement if you put it out there and they take you up on it.

Jovi
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join:2000-02-24
Mount Joy, PA

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Jovi to jay608

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But do you leave your door open on my property? Such as your signal crossing the property line and coming into my house. And for the record I pay for my internet connection.

I feel people that leave their network open should be fair game. If someone uses it for illegal downloading or hacking, then it is their own fault for not understanding the product before using it.
Kearnstd
Space Elf
Premium Member
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Mullica Hill, NJ

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a better connection would be, you leave your lawn tractor on my property. i mow my lawn with it and park it back where you left it. now what i did was in morals wrong but hey you did leave your stuff on my land....
b10010011
Whats a Posting tag?
join:2004-09-07
united state

b10010011

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Re: Is Wi-Fi Bandwidth Theft A Real Problem?

said by Kearnstd:

a better connection would be, you leave your lawn tractor on my property. i mow my lawn with it and park it back where you left it. now what i did was in morals wrong but hey you did leave your stuff on my land....
Well sure what I don't know wont hurt you.

But if you committed a crime with my tractor (like intentionally running over your wife) Besides murder I bet you would also be charged with using my tractor without my consent. (maybe not theft exactly)

Just like if you download a bunch of kiddie porn over my open access point you could also be charged with computer trespass or theft of service on top of the kiddie porn charge.

dadkins
Can you do Blu?
MVM
join:2003-09-26
Hercules, CA

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dadkins

MVM

... here in The States, there are TONS of "LEGAL" free hotspots offered willingly by various places.

Most Libraries have free WiFi!

»www.wififreespot.com/

*I* can usually get online - legally!

pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
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Mount Airy, MD

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pnh102

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Any town that employs any police officer to prosecute this "non crime" should have its charter revoked. Such a town is either employing too many officers for too few crimes, or is not properly allocating police resources to arrest real criminals.
BlitzenZeus
Burnt Out Cynic
Premium Member
join:2000-01-13

BlitzenZeus

Premium Member

If people crack a password, that is something, otherwise what you have is an open internet connection. Go driving around with a pda/laptop in a rural area, and you find open access points all the time due to users not reading the manual! Its not written in latin, people are just too lazy to do it, and most people who have configured one can configure another without even cracking the manual as they are all very similar in features.

mpelle4456
Say What?
join:2001-07-21
Tacoma, WA

mpelle4456

Member

A year or more ago, when I went on vacation, it was easy as all get out to find free Wi-Fi. Pull out the trusty laptop, open NetStumbler, and away we go.

This summer, it was a lot harder. The sampling of networks I saw between Seattle and LA, probably more than 3/4 were secured. This is as opposed to a year or two ago when almost none were secured.

What with all the publicity concerning Wi-Fi theft, I can only conclude that the networks presently left unsecured have been left that way deliberately.

Given that, if I were ever sued or busted for bandwidth theft of an open network, I'd feel compelled to counter-sue for the owner having maintained an attractive nuisance.

Say a homeowner built a really neat playground in his un-fenced front yard. If kids used the playground equipment, would they be guilty of trespassing?

In this day and age, if someone leaves their network open, it must be assumed they don't care if other people use it.

The flip side of the coin is that if they persist in prosecuting people for bandwidth theft of open networks, then I would propose making it a misdemeanor punishable by up to 6 months in jail and a $1,000 fine to leave your network unsecured (maintaining an attractive nuisance).

Fair is fair...

Thespis
I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV.
Premium Member
join:2004-08-03
Keller, TX

Thespis

Premium Member

Re: Bandwidth thefts

said by mpelle4456:

The flip side of the coin is that if they persist in prosecuting people for bandwidth theft of open networks, then I would propose making it a misdemeanor punishable by up to 6 months in jail and a $1,000 fine to leave your network unsecured (maintaining an attractive nuisance).

Fair is fair...
I agree. It's a lot like leaving your keys in the car. The thief who steals the vehicle is prosecuted for theft, and the owner is ticketed for leaving the keys in the car.
Both have responsibility for their actions...

YESandYES
@comcast.net

YESandYES

Anon

and YES
jriskin
join:2001-10-11
Topanga, CA

jriskin

Member

Hopefully the one good thing we may get out of devices like a Skype phone and particularly the iPhone (with all its faults) is that their automatic attaching to nearby hotspots is going to force the issue.

How hard is it for people to understand? If you're hotspot is wide open, no password, no mac filtering, and no encryption what so ever, then you're inviting public use.

If you take even the most rudimentary steps to block access, then using it without permission is trespassing.

Its like owning an open lot in the middle of the city with a nice grassy patch on it. No one can be expected to be arrested for trespassing on it. But as soon as signs are put up or a fence erected then you're not allowed to go there.

Isn't this just OBVIOUS!?
BlitzenZeus
Burnt Out Cynic
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BlitzenZeus

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Re: No password/No Security = no crime

Cellular carriers have sold pda phones for years that could use wifi if you didn't have a carrier like Verizon who disabled half the features on your phone, but still wanted to charge you full price.
kcir
join:2005-07-30
Butner, NC

kcir

Member

I don't buy that parallelism. To me open unprotected wireless is closer to property that's not marked with no trespassing, fence or some other barrier. Arresting someone for using unprotected wifi is like arresting someone for trespassing without any intent to state people should stay off or even clear mark where the boundaries are.
okieopie1
Premium Member
join:2004-02-06
Alexandria, KY

okieopie1

Premium Member

I just had a conversation today with a local county policeman who told me that they use unsecured internet connections all the time. He told me they used my church's hotspot connection regularly. If he needs to, he'll pull into someones driveway and use their unsecured wireless connection...

Question: If law enforcement sees no problem in doing this, is it illegal? Or perhaps more appropriate, if law enforcement engages in this behavior, are they endorsing it?

AJ5TT
join:2003-08-17
Friendswood, TX

3 edits

AJ5TT

Member

Re: Cops use unsecured wi-fi

Not if there is reasonable assumption that the connection was opened intentionally. If the law enforcement officer pulls into someone’s driveway and he has reasonable knowledge that the homeowner did not intend to grant the officer access then the officer violates moral turpitude. This could lead to being disciplined or indefinite suspension. I do not think this is condoned by the law enforcement community but is the act of an individual.

kpfx
join:2005-10-28
San Antonio, TX

kpfx

Member

I'm noticing a change in attitude here. It seems that about a year ago whenever this issue came up at least half the posts tried to argue that using a neighbors unsecured open wireless was theft. Now the consensus seems to be that if its open then its fair game (and was probably even meant to be open).

I never liked the whole "open door" argument either. Always argued that it was like me watching your big screen TV you placed by the window from the street. If you don't want people watching your TV then close the curtains.

And the ignorance issue isn't too valid either. There's plenty of people who intentionally left their wireless open so others can use it, myself included.
srobmw
join:2005-10-01
New Windsor, NY

srobmw

Member

I think the tables should be turned. Make it mandatory to secure wireless networks and prosecute those who don't.

Make both sides responsible. It would show equal intelligence or equal stupidity depending on your view of the subject.
MmmPancakes
join:2007-05-29
T3H

MmmPancakes

Member

Re: Level playing field

It would be much too hard to enforce that rule.

mike6732
@pacbell.net

mike6732

Anon

If you're in a public space and a person is transmitting over a public frequency and obviously smart enough to understand how to use a wireless router - then they ought to know how to secure it too. If they are not ambitious enough to secure it, then I believe it is public domain.

How is one supposed to know who's signal is who's? When I am at my home - I constantly pick up several SSID's that do not belong to me. Personally, I'd prefer folks to quit broadcasting their SSID's and secure their networks so that I don't accidently get into their networks. Once I learned of their existence several years ago - I secured all my PC's so I don't accidently get onto their crappy connections.

There is a grass-roots effort for folks to allow people to access their wireless networks. It's ridiculous to claim ownership of a public space. If I have a tree producing oxygen on my property - am I able to make the claim that someone is stealing my oxygen? If I want to claim it as mine, then I should place a container around the tree and capture all the oxygen it produces for my personal use.

prestonlewis
Premium Member
join:2003-04-13
Sacramento, CA

prestonlewis

Premium Member

A person's unprotected WiFi signal invades my property, my home, my bedroom and I feel perfectly justified in using it if my Comcast and DSL are both down (never happened). One poster mentioned leaving his keys in his car. Well, if you car is in my yard with the keys in it, on my grass, I'm moving the thing WAY........... down the street. If it's in your driveway or yard that's theft.

All router manufacturers should sell wireless routers/APs with encrypted turned on and then let the unknowing pay someone to get connected wirelessly. That would solve the problem and is already happening.
BlitzenZeus
Burnt Out Cynic
Premium Member
join:2000-01-13

BlitzenZeus

Premium Member

Re: on my property . . . .

No, owners should be forced to enable the wireless mode in a setup process where they choose the security method, and key via a lan connection.

insomniac84
join:2002-01-03
Schererville, IN

insomniac84

Member

Re: on my property . . . .

Problem is the signal doesn't stay on your property and if you leave it open others can use it. If you don't want others to use it, enable encryption. And you can enable it via the wireless, you will just get kicked off when you enable it until you set the correct key on you computer. Also because of people like you manufacturers may be forced to disable the wireless radio by default.
insomniac84

insomniac84

Member

You can't steal an open wifi connection. If it is open, it is being offered to the public.
stufried
Premium Member
join:2003-10-13

stufried

Premium Member

The problem I have with these prosecutions is that people apply the "stink test" in determining what is theft and what isn't. A pedophile parked on a suburban street snarfing a connection makes people want to say "yes," but many more situations are just ambiguous.

What happens when a coffee house or a hotel gives it away, doesn't make people click through a license, and someone uses the free connection differently than the owner silently intended? Is that theft?

Consider this one. I go to a hotel to pick up a registered guest. HE takes a little bit of time coming to the lobby and I pull out my PDA and surf the hotel net killing time. Am I guilty of theft? What about accessing a public library's free net from the parking lot?

In my hometown, there is a Starbuck next to a Panerra and you can get the free Panerra signal anywhere in the Starbucks. Is some who uses that free signal guilty of theft because Panerra is intending to use its free wifi as a lure?

I think consent to use wifi can be inferred with greater ease than we require for entering into a contract. The law is supposed to set forth clear and objective criteria. These prosecutions seem arbitrary and inconsistent.

AJ5TT
join:2003-08-17
Friendswood, TX

AJ5TT

Member

Re: These Prosecutions Seem Too Selective

Is the coffee house or hotel simply just giving away free access or is their intent to provide a service for their customers? The connection is not free. The proprietor of the business has the sole intent to lure customers to their establishment. The customers who purchase their services, motel room, coffee, in essence pay for the connection.

As your example of Panerra, if you ask the owner/manager if their connection is free, I am sure the response would be more on the lines that the connection is open to all patrons of the of the establishment. The customers are essentially paying for the connection. If you are not a customer, then you are not paying for the connection. The law may not be exactly clear but ethically and morally, you can derive an answer.

rosco35
Premium Member
join:2003-11-10
USA

rosco35

Premium Member

Next people will say you are stealing music if your neighbor plays it loud enough for you to hear.
If they don't want my wireless card to hear their router, then they should take steps to prevent it.
Kearnstd
Space Elf
Premium Member
join:2002-01-22
Mullica Hill, NJ

Kearnstd

Premium Member

Re: Another comparison

is it stealing music if you access your neighbor's shared Itunes while on the wifi? im sure the RIAA would say so lol.

insomniac84
join:2002-01-03
Schererville, IN

insomniac84

Member

Re: Another comparison

I hope they wouldn't that would be copyright infringement, not theft.

CCNnorthcali
join:2004-03-07
San Francisco, CA

CCNnorthcali

Member

I would need a GPS if it wasn't for Super 8 motels. Usually I pull up right in front, and get my laptop out. I've never really gotten a second look from the staff. Not to mention a few unsecured routers have saved my ass a few times. It's your neighbors that people should probably be worried about, not someone just out in their car.

TheBarbarian
BRB, pillaging...
join:2006-01-09
Kenosha, WI

TheBarbarian

Member

You know those portable toilets you usually see by construction sites? Well, if it's sitting on public land, out in the open with no barriers, and the door says "open", is it a crime to take a leak? Probably not. On the other hand, of course, if you had to take a big download, then maybe the owners would have cause to get upset and have the cops chase you off...but an arrestable offense, I think not.

See what I'm getting at?
ELCouz5
join:2007-08-17
Canada

1 edit

ELCouz5

Member

Re: Port-A-Potty Analogy

said by TheBarbarian:

You know those portable toilets you usually see by construction sites? Well, if it's sitting on public land, out in the open with no barriers, and the door says "open", is it a crime to take a leak? Probably not. On the other hand, of course, if you had to take a big download, then maybe the owners would have cause to get upset and have the cops chase you off...but an arrestable offense, I think not.

See what I'm getting at?
True true,

I have 2 networks, one hard wired , second open WIFI ... both are isolated and the open wifi is restricted to HTTP port 80 only with speed limits 20k/sec max.

i dont even use wifi but trust me open wifi saved my ass too when travelling .. i mean seriously is it a crime to check your email & blog / chat during travel ???

So why i dont do the same thing for ppl passing near my house ?

for me its purely ethical.

alt_PP
@verizon.net

alt_PP

Anon

In this day and age, I think that it is the owner's responsibility to secure their wifi. Their signal is extending outside of their property range into the public domain. The onus should be on them to secure it with a password and even to weaken the signal so that it isn't extending out into the street.

Many wifi software packages that come on laptop's these days will just automatically hop onto the next network that is available in your appartment complex if your own network goes down. That means that you would be unknowingly breaking the law while out on an errand and your service provider goes down.

Yes, if someone is breaks the encryption or obviously is doing criminal activity on someone else's network, then yes that is an entirely different story. But I'm sorry, as we approach WiMax and the always on always connected internet age, I think it will need to be the network broadcaster's responsibility to lock his network down.

Chiyo
Save Me Konata-Chan
Premium Member
join:2003-02-20
Salisbury, NC
·Hotwire Communic..

Chiyo

Premium Member

Re: Wifi Security

Wifi bandwith theft is not a problem. The owner of the device should learn how to do it for Christ sakes push the damn button and boom you've got some form of encryption.

The linksys router I bought for 40 dollars has some button you push it and it does everything for you. Or go a step further read a how too off google or the manual and set your encryption even more.
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