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Journal: NSA Capable of Spying on Nearly Everything

The Wall Street Journal is the latest to join the NSA scandal fun with a bombshell report that once again shows the NSA has been lying to the press, public and Congress. According to the Journal, the NSA's surveillance apparatus has the ability to reach roughly 75% of all US Internet traffic, with inadequate safeguards leading to frequent over collection.

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The Journal's report, based on numerous insider accounts, confirms what AT&T whistleblower Mark Klein revealed back in 2007 (amidst either yawning or disbelief by many in the tech press at the time); our large ISPs are handing over everything, all the time:
said by The Journal :
The programs, code-named Blarney, Fairview, Oakstar, Lithium and Stormbrew, among others, filter and gather information at major telecommunications companies. Blarney, for instance, was established with AT&T former officials say. AT&T declined to comment. This filtering takes place at more than a dozen locations at major Internet junctions in the U.S., officials say. Previously, any NSA filtering of this kind was largely believed to be happening near points where undersea or other foreign cables enter the country.
Klein made it clear that AT&T was effectively letting the NSA install fiber splits in AT&T offices and clone absolutely every shred of data that touches the AT&T network to do with as they wish. Nobody who has been paying attention was under the impression that these taps occurred solely at undersea cable entry junctions -- except perhaps the Journal.

When the Verizon metadata scandal broke, the press also seemed confused and insisted the NSA only really dealt in metadata, when previous leaks have shown repeatedly we're talking about both metadata and message content. The Journal again points out that everything is collected, period:
said by The Journal :
Inevitably, officials say, some U.S. Internet communications are scanned and intercepted, including both "metadata" about communications, such as the "to" and "from" lines in an email, and the contents of the communications themselves.
And at times, everything gets collected from entire cities, whether or not you're tied to terrorist activity or not:
said by The Journal :
For the 2002 Winter Olympics in Salt Lake City, officials say, the Federal Bureau of Investigation and NSA arranged with Qwest Communications International Inc. to use intercept equipment for a period of less than six months around the time of the event. It monitored the content of all email and text communications in the Salt Lake City area.
You'll recall that Qwest ultimately balked at offering such wholesale access to data, with former Qwest CEO Joe Nacchio claiming the company was subsequently banned from lucrative government contracts as a result. Verizon, recently caught up in a scandal involving the handing over of user metadata, was just awarded participation in a $10 billion government cloud data contract, which surely had nothing to do with their participation in these kinds of programs.
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skeechan
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skeechan

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Yesbut, you can trust your government!

Yeah. These people can not be trusted with the information they get. The IRS scandal proves that. And even with the information they can't catch Nadal Hassan, the Times Square bomber or 2 Chechen Islamists even after the Russians warned about them. The NSA can't find its own ass using both hands. Now we see that other agencies are chomping at the bit to get their hands on this NSA data and just like goons at the IRS illegally leaked tax records, you know goons at the NSA will do the same.

There is NOTHING in the Constitution that permits government to take the records of private business (like these phone records) without a warrant stating what they are looking for and the names of the people they are looking at. In fact, the Constitution expressly prohibits it. There is absolutely nothing in the Constitution that permits the taking of private communications of citizens without the same warrant.

The Constitution is unique in that it states only what the Federal government is permitted to do. Any power not granted the Federal government is reserved for the States or the People.

Unfortunately the inept judiciary can't seem to find their copy and this is the result.

dnoyeB
Ferrous Phallus
join:2000-10-09
Southfield, MI

dnoyeB

Member

Re: Yesbut, you can trust your government!

Which makes you wonder why they aren't finding any terrorists. If they do happen to find one, their evidence would likely not be found constitutional and would throw into jeopardy their whole inward spying rig.

FFH5
Premium Member
join:2002-03-03
Tavistock NJ

FFH5

Premium Member

Re: Yesbut, you can trust your government!

said by dnoyeB:

Which makes you wonder why they aren't finding any terrorists. If they do happen to find one, their evidence would likely not be found constitutional and would throw into jeopardy their whole inward spying rig.

They are FINDING them. And then if foreigners caught, they disappear.
grabacon9
join:2013-08-21
Newark, OH

grabacon9 to dnoyeB

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to dnoyeB
They need to quit making people mad. Maybe they would have less terrorists after them. Lol.
Crookshanks
join:2008-02-04
Binghamton, NY

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Crookshanks to skeechan

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to skeechan
said by skeechan:

The Constitution is unique in that it states only what the Federal government is permitted to do. Any power not granted the Federal government is reserved for the States or the People.

"The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against Invasion; and on Application of the Legislature, or of the Executive (when the Legislature cannot be convened), against domestic Violence."

Sorry, this is wholly Constitutional so long as it is aimed at foreign nationals seeking to do us harm. The only grey area is the incidental and/or deliberate capture of domestic telecommunications. In such a case the captured information can't be used in a criminal prosecution, nor could it be used to uncover other information (fruit of the poisonous tree) used in such a prosecution. In the ideal world they wouldn't intercept ANY domestic communications, not even incidentally, but we don't live in the ideal world, do we? If you know a way to set up IP capture filters to ONLY intercept communications to AND from foreign nationals, then you should probably apply for a patent and try to sell it to the NSA.... you'd make a fortune.

As an aside, I trust you'll be equally up in arms about the 10th Amendment the next time people around here start clamoring for FCC intervention in the broadband market, the nationalization of said market, and so on?
CXM_Splicer
Looking at the bigger picture
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join:2011-08-11
NYC

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CXM_Splicer

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Re: Yesbut, you can trust your government!

Well that sounds really good except that this system is for the blanket interception of domestic communications. The fact that they have been caught sharing incidental info with the DEA and IRS kinda negates any kind of 'foreign nationals' argument.

JakCrow
join:2001-12-06
Palo Alto, CA

JakCrow

Member

Re: Yesbut, you can trust your government!

Or the fact their own documentation says they'll retain data in regards to other "criminal activity" unrelated to terrorism.
dra6o0n
join:2011-08-15
Mississauga, ON

dra6o0n

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Re: Yesbut, you can trust your government!

They know you've stuck bubblegum under the teacher's desk in 8th grade.

skeechan
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skeechan to Crookshanks

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to Crookshanks
Foreign nationals on foreign soil...which this program isn't about. This program collects information on US citizens, seizing the information from private companies without warrant describing the people or places to be searched and things to be seized. This is a DOMESTIC spying program and there is no Constitutional authority for it.

If the NSA can't figure out how to do it without violating the 4th Amendment...guess what, tough titty. This is exactly the reason we have a Bill of Rights.

Meanwhile the broadband market is INTERSTATE COMMERCE.

I find it strange that some so-called Conservatives love this big government totalitarianism and shredding of the Constitution especially given the recent history of the same totalitarian regime use the information they collect to abuse and bully its citizens.

Small government is great unless it is about the bedroom or violating basic Constitutional rights. In those cases, big government is best I suppose.

FFH5
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join:2002-03-03
Tavistock NJ

FFH5

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Re: Yesbut, you can trust your government!

What about foreign nationals on US soil? There are plenty of them to spy on.

skeechan
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skeechan

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Re: Yesbut, you can trust your government!

Let them get a warrant naming the people and places to be searched and things to be seized just as the Constitution of the United States requires. The Bill of Rights does not distinguish between citizens in the United States and noncitizens in the United States. It merely says the People. When citizenship is required for a certain right, the Constitution states it such as Article I Section 2..

FFH5
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join:2002-03-03
Tavistock NJ

FFH5

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Re: Yesbut, you can trust your government!

said by skeechan:

The Bill of Rights does not distinguish between citizens in the United States and noncitizens in the United States. It merely says the People. When citizenship is required for a certain right, the Constitution states it such as Article I Section 2..

Then the Bill of Rights needs changing. Non-citizens should NOT be protected by the Bill of Rights.

skeechan
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skeechan

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Re: Yesbut, you can trust your government!

That would require a Constitutional Amendment. But it does not change the fact that the Constitution does not allow for the blanket seizing of information from private companies or the contents of private correspondence. These are private American businesses and privately owned infrastructure that the NSA is "raiding". It doesn't matter if it is a terrorist, you can't go into UPS or Fedex and take stuff without a warrant because it is UPS or Fedex getting searched. Same for US banks. The same should apply to AT&T and Verizon. The government should not be seizing anything from AT&T or Verizon without a warrant.

The NSA is on a fishing expedition that the Constitution expressly prohibits.

Simply put, the NSA is not entitled to any of my correspondence without a warrant detailing me and what they are looking for specifically and where they are to look for it; according to the Constitution. But the NSA is not only collecting that, but all of my activity, supposedly, including VOIP telephone calls. And it doesn't matter if they actually peek inside that information or not; they are not allowed to even collect it in the first place.

meeeeeeeeee
join:2003-07-13
Newburgh, NY

meeeeeeeeee to FFH5

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to FFH5
said by FFH5 See ProfileThen the Bill of Rights needs changing. Non-citizens should NOT be protected by the Bill of Rights. [/BQUOTE :

IF YOU (and/or the government) feel that the Bill of Rights needs to be changed then follow the Constitutionally set process to change it, but UNTIL such time that you do, YOU and/or the government are BOUND by the Constitution.


FFH5
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FFH5

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Re: Yesbut, you can trust your government!

said by meeeeeeeeee:

said by FFH5:

Then the Bill of Rights needs changing. Non-citizens should NOT be protected by the Bill of Rights.

IF YOU (and/or the government) feel that the Bill of Rights needs to be changed then follow the Constitutionally set process to change it, but UNTIL such time that you do, YOU and/or the government are BOUND by the Constitution.

Only bound to how it is INTERPRETED by the Supreme Court. Not how the ACLU or activist groups say how it should be interpreted.

meeeeeeeeee
join:2003-07-13
Newburgh, NY

meeeeeeeeee

Member

Re: Yesbut, you can trust your government!

said by FFH5:

said by meeeeeeeeee:

said by FFH5:

Then the Bill of Rights needs changing. Non-citizens should NOT be protected by the Bill of Rights.

IF YOU (and/or the government) feel that the Bill of Rights needs to be changed then follow the Constitutionally set process to change it, but UNTIL such time that you do, YOU and/or the government are BOUND by the Constitution.

Only bound to how it is INTERPRETED by the Supreme Court. Not how the ACLU or activist groups say how it should be interpreted.

No, bound by the people. The Supreme Court is only the Supreme Court with the consent of the people, same for Congress and the President. Pushed far enough the people will push back.

skeechan
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skeechan

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Re: Yesbut, you can trust your government!

Lifetime appointment means they don't need the consent of the governed. This was by design.

meeeeeeeeee
join:2003-07-13
Newburgh, NY

meeeeeeeeee

Member

Re: Yesbut, you can trust your government!

said by skeechan:

Lifetime appointment means they don't need the consent of the governed. This was by design.

If the rest of the Government topples because they have lost the consent of the people, I think SCOTUS would have a very hard sell to maintain their positions, although if they were to continue to insist that they were still SCOTUS, it might land them in a mental institution.

skeechan
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skeechan

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Re: Yesbut, you can trust your government!

The government won't topple. They already have more guns and are working hard to ensure the people have none. That is how totalitarian regimes keep their power.

meeeeeeeeee
join:2003-07-13
Newburgh, NY

meeeeeeeeee

Member

Re: Yesbut, you can trust your government!

said by skeechan:

The government won't topple. They already have more guns and are working hard to ensure the people have none. That is how totalitarian regimes keep their power.

I've heard THAT before, only time will tell...
dra6o0n
join:2011-08-15
Mississauga, ON

dra6o0n

Member

Re: Yesbut, you can trust your government!

Hey, the American army lost in Vietnam, to people that 'lacked' modern weaponry, in which they made up in 'guerrilla warfare'.

Except in this case, if the 'people' of the USA were to revolt, then the military would most likely revolt too as it is very tied into the very citizens that enlist.

It's not gonna be like those other nations where they literally had a iron clad military to gun down their own citizens right?

skeechan
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skeechan

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Re: Yesbut, you can trust your government!

Depends on what they are promised. The regime buys voters; they would simply change to buying soldiers and it isn't like they don't already have swaths of brown shirts already willing to stomp on people's rights.

meeeeeeeeee
join:2003-07-13
Newburgh, NY

meeeeeeeeee

Member

Re: Yesbut, you can trust your government!

said by skeechan:

Depends on what they are promised. The regime buys voters; they would simply change to buying soldiers and it isn't like they don't already have swaths of brown shirts already willing to stomp on people's rights.

A Fatal flaw in this regime's thinking has been it's lack of support for its' military forces (especially since the end of the Vietnam War). While allowing Generals and Officers into "the club", they have treated the rank and file soldier as DIRT, reneging on promises made them, paying them at the poverty line and leaving them to rot in unsanitary, third class facilities when they get hurt, and abandoning their families if they get killed. Perhaps initially, they MAY follow orders... but in the end, I think their weapons will be turned the "other" way. They ARE Americans.

skeechan
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skeechan to FFH5

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That is the problem and why Constitutional government is dead. It is now a totalitarian regime.

Joe2
@comcast.net

Joe2 to FFH5

Anon

to FFH5
Then all I have to do is declare everyone an exile. Woot, thanks for the idea!
OwlSaver
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OwlSaver

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Impact on the Internet

I am wondering what impact this has on overall Internet performance. You cannot take this much data without some sort of impact. Do the Tier 1 ISPs include this in their capacity planning?

batterup
I Can Not Tell A Lie.
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join:2003-02-06
Netcong, NJ

batterup

Premium Member

No handles on the door?



What horror is behind door 641A? Could it be the "CC" (cerebrum communicator)?



StuartMW
Premium Member
join:2000-08-06

StuartMW

Premium Member

Disinformation

I'd already started a thread about this before Karl Bode See Profile posted about it.

»NSA surveillance reach broader than publicly acknowledged

but I'll repeat my comments here

"My guess is that the 75% figure is disinformation. The NSA wants us to think that it is 0% in an attempt to obtain traffic "of interest" from those naive enough to believe their data isn't being gathered, stored and analyzed."

wings10
I Am Legend
Premium Member
join:2004-06-09
South Elgin, IL

wings10

Premium Member

Who cares

Who the "F" cares? I don't give a crap. What do I have to hide?

The same people that scream about privacy are the same morons that post all their personnel information on social sites like Facebook and Twitter.

Just nuts.

elios
join:2005-11-15
Springfield, MO

2 recommendations

elios

Member

Re: Who cares

so you wont mind if i just come over to your home and look threw all your stuff right?
you have nothing to hide after all
also please post your full name date of birth and SSN
ill wait

firephoto
Truth and reality matters
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join:2003-03-18
Brewster, WA

firephoto to wings10

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said by wings10:

Who the "F" cares? I don't give a crap. What do I have to hide?

On a casual glance I see you have your real name and your home address being hidden while you express your (personally) constitutional right to free speech here. Obviously that is important to you as it is others here that even go to the trouble of changing their user name multiple times a year because their "fake persona" gets attacked or other given reasons at times.

Honestly if it was just the actual government that could see this information I really would not care. Because for profit companies can see this information is exactly why I care. A persons personal information or conversations should not be able to be used by anyone else for means of personal or business gain, no exceptions, but that is far from the reality with this for profit spying that we have enabled as a country.
The Antihero
join:2002-04-09
Enola, PA

The Antihero to wings10

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to wings10
said by wings10:

Who the "F" cares? I don't give a crap. What do I have to hide?

Everyone has something to hide. We're all guilty of something if you look hard enough.

Metatron2008
You're it
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join:2008-09-02
united state

Metatron2008 to wings10

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to wings10
Post your real name and address, or shut the fuck up.

cableties
Premium Member
join:2005-01-27

cableties

Premium Member

Paper and pen sales up!

"al Akbari has been requesting the need for a Staples store in Lohar for last two years. His reasoning: to use traditional paper and pen goat couriers. American NSA cannot see which goat nor intercept message of my goats!"

There ya go! terrorist cells now putting messages on goat couriers. however, if caught, they are told to feed goat the msg. But boy, if found screwing one goat...

I'm jesting...
rdmiller
join:2005-09-23
Richmond, VA

rdmiller

Member

If NSA is so smart ...

If NSA is so smart, it would already know which Americans have contact with foreign terrorists and only collect those emails.

Pickedon
@bhn.net

Pickedon

Anon

Satellite Beach,FL

Well i can say first hand last year this was in place at the Fiber POP here for BHN, somewhere along the line traffice is intercepted too FB and too even trigger the "event" is only a few words before OSI will come knocking on your door.

firephoto
Truth and reality matters
Premium Member
join:2003-03-18
Brewster, WA

firephoto

Premium Member

Re: Satellite Beach,FL

said by Pickedon @bhn.net :

Well i can say first hand last year this was in place at the Fiber POP here for BHN, somewhere along the line traffice is intercepted too FB and too even trigger the "event" is only a few words before OSI will come knocking on your door.

This is what we need more of because without it you have the distractors trying to change the conversation.

Thank you.
old_wiz_60
join:2005-06-03
Bedford, MA

old_wiz_60

Member

Who is the NSA for?

They ignore court orders, constitutional protections, and any government controls. They have become an agency that can "detain" anyone indefinitely for any reason they want, they can interrogate anyone by any means including waterboarding for as long as they want, they can make people disappear without trial, without judicial oversight. And the federal government approves of it. It's not the fault of the Republicans or the Democrats or Obama.

In other words the NSA has become a government itself, answerable to no one.

Himmler, Beria, and the Stasi would be so jealous of the NSA today. I wonder if the NSA uses traing materials from the Gestapo or the Stasi?

Instead of terrorists abducting, torturing, and killing American citizens we have the NSA abducting, torturing, and killing American citizens.

We've exchanged one terrorist organization for another one and we pay for the new one too.

joe2
@comcast.net

joe2

Anon

Re: Who is the NSA for?

I suggest you read about Operation Paperclip. Heh.