 
needforspeed59
Cruise Ship Just Passing Through
join:2001-05-02
Glendale, AZ | IMHO: BS I think it is total BS that governments can compete against private enterprise no matter what the good intentions are. What's next: City of Lafayette gasoline stations? Grocery stores?
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Default_Uzer
join:2006-02-13
Springville, NY
clubs:
| Re: IMHO: BS Well said. But if your town built a government owned and operated gas station and offered gas for $2.50/gallon I'm sure it would be greatly appreciated and you would be out of your mind to not fill up there.
Would you want to pay for a local service and see some of the money go back into the community, such as roads, schools and things of that nature or would you rather pay more money for a slower service and kiss your cash goodbye? | |
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| | | Travel_2002
join:2002-10-13
Lagrange, GA
| Re: IMHO: BS I just love to sit back and read comments made by people who are on the "outside" of any fiber project. Right now it's about 80% for and 20% against. Those against are either in some way close to the incumbent or just flat out negative about everything. It makes business sense from the incumbent to fight any competition. On the other hand if they had preformed like they should have in the past then these projects wouldn't be going on right now. These cable companies and telcos have operated a "cash cow" long enough. It's true that some have made improvements as far as technology is concerned, but still lack in customer service and price. They all have the option of building a fiber network but have opted not to do so. They still insist on "coax". Any fiber project being built has to offer the same channels on their lineup as the incumbent and more or the people wont subscribe to it. The internet has to be faster and the phone works better and cheaper. | |
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Nightshade
sic semper tyrannis
Premium
join:2002-05-26
Salem, OR
4 edits | I would totally agree but Lafayette is a unique case. The problem is that Bellsouth was not even going to put in any broadband services for the city, despite that they claim Lafayette is in their territory. So because of that Lafayette citizens said fine, where going to have our own broadband services.
If private businesses are not willing to provide services, or can't get it done, and the citizens want said services, then it is within their rights to do it on their own with the help of government if they so desire. But at the same time the government should only be used as a last resort.
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Nightshade
sic semper tyrannis
Premium
join:2002-05-26
Salem, OR
1 edit | Re: IMHO: BS Well they don't deserve it anymore than any other town in rural America and no I never been to Lafayette but that isn't the point. The point is that the people of Lafayette took action and voted it for themselves when private enterprise didn't want provide any broadband and cable services to the town. From what I heard they have been promising for years to do it. Empty promises are just that, empty and worthless.
After a while it gets to the point where if they want it and they won't do it for themselves, then no one else will. It is oblivious that the private sector won't. I am a strong believer in capitalism but where a capitalistic market fails a community, then I see no problem in the community providing any services for themselves if they so desire the service.
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| | | joker5656
join:2006-06-23
Greenville, SC | this is city money, not Federal money people. there's a difference. Federal money would mean mine and many others who live out of state are funding it, but since its city only those people are funding it. | |
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NOCMan
Verizon Fios User
Premium
join:2004-09-30
Flower Mound, TX
| The people of the city paid through their local taxes. Federal funds did not pay for this.
IMO there is nothing wrong with this setup. In fact I would encourage cities to build all fiber networks and lease access to it so end companies can provide the services.
Outsource maintenance of the network to a company capable of doing it. Then all comers to the market are being charged the same access fees, their equipment has to play with everyone elses.
In the end you end up with standards compliant hardware and probably a better experience for all. Companies will come and go, but in the end they will be forced to compete on their own prices and services without any ability to undercut someone else unless they're willing to give it away for free. | |
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| | | BosstonesOwn
join:2002-12-15
Everett, MA
clubs:
 ·Comcast
·Comcast Formerly ..
| said by keyboard5684  :Well, then what about rural America? Are we going to get tax money to provide ANY broadband services to places 4 miles away from any town? Why is Lafayette any different? Ever been there? I cannot in any way see how they deserve this anymore than any other city in America. Government money is for something enterprise cannot provide because they will make no profit. This includes roads, police stations, street lights, and other projects that simply provide no return on investment. The case here is if someone set up broadband, they could make a profit (maybe). This could go very bad. A long time ago when there was a war going on people cut back on things. Women went to work while men went to war. Now, we are bickering about fiber, taking money from the government, that could be spent elsewhere (maybe hurricane survival or flack jackets!). Maybe just maybe , its time that the country is run like a business. Where profits should be kept in a reserve so we can lower tax loads or maybe help fund things good for our people.
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| jdmatl
join:2000-04-27
Deerfield Beach, FL
| said by needforspeed59 :I think it is total BS that governments can compete against private enterprise no matter what the good intentions are. What's next: City of Lafayette gasoline stations? Grocery stores? Have you been following this story? Bellsouth and Cox had been promising for years to do this and did not. If private enterprise can't get it done, the more power to the local city govt to take over. I look at Bellsouth/Cox as "big govt" anyway. Both are monopolies.
After all the city govt is run by the local people not the fed govt. | |
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| | Nintendo
join:2007-03-17
| Re: IMHO: BS said by jdmatl :said by needforspeed59 :I think it is total BS that governments can compete against private enterprise no matter what the good intentions are. What's next: City of Lafayette gasoline stations? Grocery stores? Have you been following this story? Bellsouth and Cox had been promising for years to do this and did not. If private enterprise can't get it done, the more power to the local city govt to take over. I look at Bellsouth/Cox as "big govt" anyway. Both are monopolies. After all the city govt is run by the local people not the fed govt. Well put. Lafayette is a stone's throw away from here and people who are not from this area have no idea whats going on here. Im happy for Lafayette. | |
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T1 Rocky
join:2002-11-15
Dallas, TX
·Time Warner Cable
·ygnitionnet
| Re: IMHO: BS I'm happy for Lafayette too and hopefully this will establish precedent and allow other cities to do this. As I interpreted this story, the telcos did not build out to the city and then blocked the city from building out their own fiber network! So is the city of Lafayette suppose to sit back and not be able to attract any technology companies until the telcos find it to be economically feasible?
It was my understandiung that in 1996, the governtment levied the taxes to build out a fiber network nationwide by 2004. The telcos ponied up and said, "we already have the people in place across the country to build out the fiber network so why don't you give us the money and we will do it for you?" The government gave the telcos the literally billions of dollars which the telcos then used to invest in lobbying which allowed them to restore their monopoly, attack vertical markets and launch an advertising campaign that said America doesn't need fiber, we need DSL on the good old already in place copper phone network!
And now a city tries to build out their own fiber network and the telcos fight them? Come on! If the government had built out the "dumb pipes" that the Telecom Act of 1996 was suppose to build then we'd all be reading this on 90 Mbps and arguing about which ISP actually gives you 90 Mbps (ISP's remember them?) But instead they gave it to the telcos who are now literally fighting with cities to stop technological development.
I wonder how many high tech companies are in Lafayette? Once this network is in place, I bet they start attracting them. | |
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| | battleop
join:2005-09-28
00000
| I've followed this off and on some. I think the big difference is that the citizens voted for this. EPB in Chattanooga is trying to do the same thing except the citizens and rate payers have no choice. There are also 20 or so providers offering broadband over different mediums. The citizens in Lafayette have no other choice for broadband. | |
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Carl
Premium
join:2004-07-21
Krotz Springs, LA
·Charter Pipeline
 ·AT&T Southeast
| Re: IMHO: BS said by battleop :The citizens in Lafayette have no other choice for broadband. Yes, they do.
Cox cable is available, as is BellSouth/AT&T DSL service.
Both have been available since the 90's, if I'm not mistaken.
I know when I lived in Lafayette, I had Cox cable modem.
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»myspace.com/theunseenalien
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Rob
In Deo speramus, God Bless the USA
Premium
join:2001-08-25
Kendall, FL
·Comcast
| said by needforspeed59 :I think it is total BS that governments can compete against private enterprise no matter what the good intentions are. What's next: City of Lafayette gasoline stations? Grocery stores? I don't. If private enterprises cherry pick markets, then local governments representing the citizens, should have the right to build a business in markets that private enterprises ignored. | |
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espaeth
Digital Plumber
Premium,MVM
join:2001-04-21
Minneapolis, MN | Re: IMHO: BS At least with the big greedy evil corporations the payments are on an opt-in basis. For the 38% of the people who voted no, they still are legally required to fund the development of that infrastructure with their tax dollars. | |
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Karl Bode
News Guy
join:2000-03-02 | Re: IMHO: BS Stoopid fire dapartmentz!1 | |
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BillRoland
Premium
join:2001-01-21
Ocala, FL
clubs:
·Cox HSI
| Re: IMHO: BS said by Karl Bode :Stoopid fire dapartmentz!1 Your quote actually (ironically) makes the point that most people here need a reality check. The proper role of government is to provide basic services and infrastructure. Public safety, law enforcement, etc are proper and necessary roles. Being a broadband provider hardly qualifies in even the loosest interpretation. Folks, broadband internet access is a convenience, it is not a sewer system or electricity, or a road or a fire department. The fact that neither Cox nor AT&T wanted to build out this thing should tell us something, considering those "evil greedy" corporations only want to make money (how awful of them). The citizens are going to get stuck paying far more for this than was told to them. Like the saying goes, there's a sucker born every minute.
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Karl Bode
News Guy
join:2000-03-02
Host:
Road Runner
PC gaming GAMES
PC gaming Tech
3 edits | Re: IMHO: BS On the contrary, I think the irony is how a great number of people are perfectly happy spending billions or trillions of tax dollars on all manner of waste, fraud, war, bank bailouts and bridges to nowhere...but the mere idea of a city coming together and voting to wire themselves with broadband infrastructure makes some people fan their foreheads in feigned outrage as if the people of Lafayette just killed a puppy or something....
The people there voted. Occasionally tax dollars go toward infrastructure improvements and not Lockheed Martin missles. Get over it. | |
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jhboricua
ExMod 2000-01
join:2000-06-06
Minneapolis, MN
clubs:
| Re: IMHO: BS said by espaeth :So because the government wastes massive amounts of money on other things, we should celebrate this waste of taxpayer dollars? Absolutely. | |
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join:2002-12-04
USA | Wow, that quote was taken completely out of context and distorted completely. | |
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Nightshade
sic semper tyrannis
Premium
join:2002-05-26
Salem, OR | If the people wanted it and voted for it, then they should get it. Let them reap the benefits and suffer the consequences of their vote.
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| | | | | | jjeffeory
join:2002-12-04
USA | I disagree. Broadband internet access has become AS important as either phone or electricity for many Americans. It is certainly an equal to phone service. It should be treated as an inportant addition to basic services in this 21st century world. | |
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natter
join:2000-12-18
Littleton, CO | Re: IMHO: BS "It should be treated as an inportant addition to basic services in this 21st century world."
no matter what it costs the real taxpayers... | |
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| | | | cajun4x4
join:2000-10-02
Baytown, TX
1 edit | I guess you haven't seen the roads in Lafayette then. What a freaking cluster. I hate driving through that place during rush hour. If you ask me it's worse than Houston Galleria area traffic. | |
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| | | | | jjeffeory
join:2002-12-04
USA
| You don't see govenments building out PSTN plants today, but they most certainly did in the past. The big telcos have bought out those already. Remember telephone service is a mature product. It had similiar issues in its past. Oh, and not just residential users will be using the new infrastructure. I'm sure business will take advantage of the network. | |
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BillRoland
Premium
join:2001-01-21
Ocala, FL
clubs:
·Cox HSI
| said by r81984 :Data transportation is just as important as physical transportation. That is quite possibly the most idiotic statement ever written on the internet. Tell us, please, how many cars, tractors, motherboards, washing machines, etc, has the internet ever built? How much wheat has data transmission planted, harvested, and transported to market? That's right, none.
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JustinMM1
join:2007-11-19
Jennings, LA
 ·HughesNet Satellit..
| Re: IMHO: BS said by r81984 :You obviously are sheltered. The internet is just as much important as all of those tangible things you speak of. How do you think all of those things are ordered and scheduled? Manufacturing could not be as efficient without up to date data which most of the time is over an internet connection. Try to tell a manufacture that they cannot have internet access and see what happens. Business is conducted over the internet, if you do not think so then you need to go back to the 1800s. Good point. I live about 30 miles west of Lafayette and see how quick the city of Lafayette is growing with new businesses. | |
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| | | | | jjeffeory
join:2002-12-04
USA
| No, the internet and DATA "transportation" just enabled those companies to more easily process the credit card transactions, locate parts & supplies, & generally enable people to find information much more quickly and more efficiently than ever before. Knowledge is power. It is clear that you don't quite get this yet. | |
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factchecker
@cox.net
| said by espaeth :At least with the big greedy evil corporations the payments are on an opt-in basis. For the 38% of the people who voted no, they still are legally required to fund the development of that infrastructure with their tax dollars. That statement is false... Before you talk about tax money being used, check into (a) how LUS runs and (b) how the project is funding itself. There is no tax money being used.
Just because it is a municipal project does not necessarily mean tax money is being used. | |
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adisor19
join:2004-10-11 | Damn this democracy where that majority votes to decide what to do !!! It sucks when you're in the minority, eh ?
LOL
With comments like these, i wonder sometimes..
Adi | |
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factchecker
@cox.net
 from:
Count Zero
| said by needforspeed59 :I think it is total BS that governments can compete against private enterprise no matter what the good intentions are. What's next: City of Lafayette gasoline stations? Grocery stores? Just to burst a hole in your statement, what LUS is doing might actually allow MORE private enterprise to compete for internet access in Lafayette. Projects like Utopia have allowed smaller, independent ISPs to flourish. One such is an ISP called XMission, IIRC. In fact, ATT even sold services across the network (not sure if they still do).
So while you might think it is bad, in reality, people end up winning from greater competition.
But hey, if you believe it wrong for the government to compete against private industry, then private industry should stop competing against government services - schools, military/police (read that as Blackwater, etc.), postal services (ie- UPS, FedEX, etc.), water and sewerage. There are two sides to the coin.  | |
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| GPSrob
join:2007-05-21
| said by needforspeed59 :I think it is total BS that governments can compete against private enterprise no matter what the good intentions are. What's next: City of Lafayette gasoline stations? Grocery stores? Yah, well, I think it's total BS that our government hasn't recognized that broadband is an important infrastructure just like roads and phones and that it hasn't taken steps to secure it's deployment to all citizens' benefit. There is a mandatory build-out rule for power and phones. Why not for broadband? It's more important than POTS since it delivers more and POTS can be provisioned over it. | |
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| fredwilson12
join:2005-04-20
Sacramento, CA
| If you really think this is BS, then maybe you should read the "$200 Billion Broadband Scandal". Here's a good summary about it:
»www.newnetworks.com/ShortSCANDALSummary.htm
Basically, the telecommunications companies haven't done jack squat for us. They've just line the pockets of themselves, their stockholders, and their front groups at the expense of the American taxpayers. If the private enterprise doesn't want to do anything, then I guess the infrastructure should come directly from public funds, and not indirectly through tax breaks to private corporations. | |
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| jc100
join:2002-04-10 | Sort of like the government issuing no bid contracts to companies (Haliburton).... or the government bailing out places (Bear Stern)...... or the regulation of monopolies.. seems you are SOL there need. | |
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murdok610
join:2004-09-05
West Chester, PA
| said by needforspeed59 :I think it is total BS that governments can compete against private enterprise no matter what the good intentions are. What's next: City of Lafayette gasoline stations? Grocery stores? LOL, I guess we should shut down the post office since they compete with fedex and UPS  | |
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| | patcat88
join:2002-04-05
Jamaica, NY
| We need to shut down the police, and replace it with subscription police, just like volunteer fire depts, where they will only try to put out the fire if your a member and have a shield on your lawn, the only thing they will do for free is rescue humans.
Public schools need to be shut down, they compete with private and charters.
We need to close libraries, they compete with Blockbusters and Barnes & Noble.
Streets need to be privatized, we can use technology to give each piece of road a microcent travel fee.
Congress needs to be run by a contractor, and a contractor should run elections. All govt branches need to be replaced by private industry. Supreme Court can now be a for profit corporation.
Military can become a contractor to auction off contracts for regiments.
We should privatize all government, it will be more efficient when all of the government is listed on the Stock Exchange and is held accountable to be profitable for stockholders. | |
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| jjeffeory
join:2002-12-04
USA | It's better than a crappy duopoly! | |
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| RibaldJester
join:2006-10-20
Urbana, IL
| Maybe we should privatize fire depts. You know, you can purchase fire protection for $24.99 a month, but that only covers fires that are caused by lightning and other environmental accidents. If you want complete coverage, then it's $49.99 a month, but wait, you also need.....
I think it's perfectly within their rights to setup their own network. If the corporations wouldn't meet what they wanted at the price they wanted then we should do it ourselves. Just look at all the rural electrical companies that we setup by local governments solely because the corporations didn't want to bring electricity out to the boonies (not cost effective). | |
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| tmc8080
join:2004-04-24
Floral Park, NY
| said by needforspeed59 :I think it is total BS that governments can compete against private enterprise no matter what the good intentions are. What's next: City of Lafayette gasoline stations? Grocery stores? Prices have been rising for both those commodities...
I don't know about you.. but I think that'd be a good idea right about now.. since the market does nothing but allow prices to skyrocket out of control. We just might need some balance to the equation... another 5 years of stagflation, you just might be wondering why your quality of life has gone down... | |
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Count Zero
MD2Be
Premium
join:2007-01-18
Warner Robins, GA | If private companies cannot or will not provide a service that people want then their governments have every right to provide them. | |
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dynodb
Premium,VIP
join:2004-04-21
Minneapolis, MN
| Any bets? Let's see, how long will it be before this project fails?
Given the record of other such municipal projects, I give it 21 months.
Infallible predictions:
1. It will cost at least twice as much as projected to deploy.
2. It will cost at least 50% more than projected to operate.
3. The service will still suck. | |
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| cajun4x4
join:2000-10-02
Baytown, TX
 ·ViaTalk
·Suddenlink
| Re: Any bets? There are reasons why Bellsouth/AT&T didn't want to spend the money to support the buildout of the complete city. There wasn't money to be made to return the investment made. Let's also realize that if both AT&T and Cox decide to pull out of Lafayette and the project is not up to par and fails then you have no options at all or the other extreme is that both competitors decide to price there services lower than LUS to simply kill the project then who wins after that? Surely not the tax payers.
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| | jjeffeory
join:2002-12-04
USA | Re: Any bets? That's a lot of "ifs". The facts show that neither corporation wanted to do this & now the gov't there is... | |
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| soothsayer15
join:2002-03-01
Irving, TX
| said by dynodb :Let's see, how long will it be before this project fails? Given the record of other such municipal projects, I give it 21 months. Infallible predictions: 1. It will cost at least twice as much as projected to deploy. 2. It will cost at least 50% more than projected to operate. 3. The service will still suck. I understand why Lafayette did this, but I agree with you. The competition with AT&T and Comcast is a good thing, but history has shown that incumbent providers usually improve the quality and price of what they offer to crush newcomers. While AT&T and Comcast can offer huge discounts or free service during the first few months,I doubt the city of Lafayette will be able to match it. It's the same effect Wal-Mart has on businesses they compete with, economies of scale. Things like customer service, tech support, employee benefits and salaries, television programming, and maintenance add up pretty quick.
But I think they are seriously underestimating the impact that two large competitors can have on their business model.The large corporations are trying to kill off independent ISPs in Utah this way. | |
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MTU
Premium
join:2005-02-15
San Luis Obispo, CA
·AT&T Yahoo
| Lafayette Brainwashed or lackeys it seems are many here.
Big business could give a crap lest you pay what they demand.
So threatened they are that a service be provided without gouging.
Medical, water, sewer, electric, phone, radio, TV, Internet should be outside the control of the scat-covered hands of corporations.
They've reaped so much and given so little.
Socialism? Maybe a term, but unless your an idiot, you know what's right. | |
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fiber_man
Things Happen For A Reason
Premium
join:2001-01-27
Port Saint Lucie, FL
 ·AT&T U-Verse
| Connections to who? They can build out the fiber network in the city but who do they connect to so that they can reach the rest of the world? I am sure that connection alone will cost the taxpayers a few thousand or more dollars per month.
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| ISurfTooMuch
join:2007-04-23
Tuscaloosa, AL
| Re: Connections to who? said by fiber_man :They can build out the fiber network in the city but who do they connect to so that they can reach the rest of the world? I am sure that connection alone will cost the taxpayers a few thousand or more dollars per month. They'll purchase a T-3, just like any other ISP does, and/or, if they decide to sell wholesale access to the network to ISP's, then those companies will handle the outbound connections.
But setting that aside for a minute, building a citywide intranet has huge possibilities. They can offer online city services to anyone, they can streamline networking of municipal departments, they can bill for their electricity services using network-connected meters, and, if the University of Louisiana at Lafayette joins in, they can offer distance ed and access to anything ULL wants to make available.
And just to comment on those upset that the city is competing with private industry, where is it written that private industry has a God-given right to make a profit? That may be a philosophical idea, but it is not etched in stone, nor is it anywhere in the Constitution. The citizens of Lafayette voted for this plan, and it is their business and theirs alone.
Oh, and one other thing. Government competes with business all the time. Some examples:
Water service vs. bottled water
Public transit vs. taxicabs
Public schools and colleges vs. private ones
Police vs. private security companies
City sanitation vs. private trash haulers
Public radio and TV vs. commercial stations
The postal service vs. UPS, FedEx, DHL, etc. | |
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Sammer
join:2005-12-22
Pittsburgh, PA
| Same as electricity and telephone in earlier times Until there were federal government programs that spent tons of taxpayer money making those services nearly universal local governments often went into business providing such services. Most of those government utilities eventually failed (usually when they needed upgrades) and were sold to private industry but residents benefited from such luxuries before those of other places. | |
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Lafayette Fiber: 10Mbps & Local Intranet
Re: IMHO: BS
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