 | | no the problems in the U.S. aren't technical as much as they are political and the result of a monopoly market.
rural areas aren't served because the incumbents won't get as much revenue compared to denser areas. | |
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 | | | Re: no But without the need to build COs won't the rural deployment costs be a lot cheaper? | |
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| |  tschmidtPremium,MVM
join:2000-11-12
Milford, NH
kudos:5
 ·Fairpoint Commun..
 ·Hollis Hosting
| Re: no said by fifty nine:But without the need to build COs won't the rural deployment costs be a lot cheaper? PON was developed based on Telco wire center model. In most cases building already exists. GPON's normal distance limit is 20 km (12.5 miles). Enhancement like this expand range but it will only affect a small percentage of the market. Basically extremely rural areas.
/tom | |
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| | | | | Re: no Most CO's are already in place. | |
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| | | | | | Re: no the COs are in place but the OLTs are not. | |
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| | | | | | | Re: no My point is.. youre not building a central office. | |
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| me1212
join:2008-11-20
Pleasant Hill, MO
1 edit | Yup. Maybe if the economy gets bad enough they will get to rural areas for all the profit they can get. Well maybe it will cost less with this so they will get out here sooner. All I ask for is 1.5m, that said when it gets here I will get the fastest package I can. | |
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| |  TzaleProud Libertarian ConservativePremium
join:2004-01-06
NYC Metro | Re: no said by me1212:Yup. Maybe if the economy gets bad enough they will get to rural areas for all the profit they can get. Well maybe it will cost less with this so they will get out here sooner. All I ask for is 1.5m, that said when it gets here I will get the fastest package I can. Doesn't work that way.
It will never be profitable to spend $600,000 to wire up a farmer and his cows.
-Tzale | |
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| | | me1212
join:2008-11-20
Pleasant Hill, MO | Re: no I did not mean them, but areas that were not profitable enough before this where there were not enough people and now that they have more or less doubled their range there is more profit for them. | |
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| | | | | It won't cost 600k to string up some drops back to the highway and link them all together.
This does drop the cost down quite a bit as it won't require investing lots of money on remote equipment. | |
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| | | | tschmidtPremium,MVM
join:2000-11-12
Milford, NH
kudos:5 Reviews:
·Fairpoint Commun..
·Hollis Hosting
| Re: no said by bogey780:It won't cost 600k to string up some drops back to the highway and link them all together. Figure about $40-50,000 per mile for aerial construction. This is fairly independent of the number of fibers in the cable.
The critical metric is homes-per-mile. Using Tzale  number of $600,000 pays for about 12 miles of cable. If we assume 20 houses per mile cost is about $800 per home passed. 20 homes per mile (264 ft frontage) is rural but not farming or ranching community.
I don't have current cost numbers but to put that into perspective I think outside plant is around $800 per customer for Cable, $1200 for Telephone twisted pair and $2,000 for fiber
/tom | |
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| | | nitzanPremium,VIP
join:2008-02-27
kudos:2 | said by Tzale:It will never be profitable to spend $600,000 to wire up a farmer and his cows. With the way the government is running these days, it can be...... | |
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| | |  BF69Premium
join:2004-07-28
Camden, TN | said by Tzale:said by me1212:Yup. Maybe if the economy gets bad enough they will get to rural areas for all the profit they can get. Well maybe it will cost less with this so they will get out here sooner. All I ask for is 1.5m, that said when it gets here I will get the fastest package I can. Doesn't work that way. It will never be profitable to spend $600,000 to wire up a farmer and his cows. -Tzale That's a real misnomer. For example I live in a rural county. Total about 6900 househlds. Now Camden has 1600 households and Big Sandy has about 250 both areas can get Charter HSI and At&t DSL. The rest of the county is pretty much shit out of luck. So about 73% of the households in my county can't get broadband. That's 5000 households( about 12,000 people ). That's a lot more than some farmer and a few cows. | |
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| | | decifal
join:2007-03-10
Bon Aqua, TN
kudos:1 Reviews:
 ·Verizon Broadban..
| said by Tzale:said by me1212:Yup. Maybe if the economy gets bad enough they will get to rural areas for all the profit they can get. Well maybe it will cost less with this so they will get out here sooner. All I ask for is 1.5m, that said when it gets here I will get the fastest package I can. Doesn't work that way. It will never be profitable to spend $600,000 to wire up a farmer and his cows. -Tzale What the hell is wrong with you? There are people out there without broadband that are not "farmers and their cows"! To assume these are the only people underserved shows lack of education/understanding on the whole issue thus negates why you are even on this forum to begin with! Seriously, if you live in a dense city area, then hell yeah your going to have service options out the yeng yang.. But there are some of us here that DO NOT live with just cows as our close's neighbors, that have no service options besides the fake one implemented as a deterrant imo called satellite. It is unusable for todays needs, the caps are insane, your latency is through the roof, and if it rains, your not surfing..
And if you only care about city folk, then rest assured, i'm sure your peole are taken care of already.. | |
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|  JigsawStardust We ArePremium
join:2000-10-21
Cleveland, OH | said by nasadude:the problems in the U.S. aren't technical as much as they are political and the result of a monopoly market. rural areas aren't served because the incumbents won't get as much revenue compared to denser areas. If only the Farmer said hey i just don't make that much revenue sending you any food i think people would think different..:)
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"It's called the American dream because you have to be asleep to believe it."-George Carlin
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| | openbox9
join:2004-01-26
Alexandria, VA
kudos:2 | Re: no Except people do pay for the cost of the farmer sending them food. However, most farmers aren't willing to pay for infrastructure to be pulled to them. | |
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| | | BF69Premium
join:2004-07-28
Camden, TN | Re: no said by openbox9:Except people do pay for the cost of the farmer sending them food. However, most farmers aren't willing to pay for infrastructure to be pulled to them. Ever think if the farmer had broadband he could more effciently run his farm thus reducing his costs and thus reducing the cost of the food you pay for?
using you logic is a waste of money to build paved roads, electricity and phone service to his farm because it just him and few cows. | |
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| | | | openbox9
join:2004-01-26
Alexandria, VA
kudos:2 | Re: no said by BF69:Ever think if the farmer had broadband he could more effciently run his farm thus reducing his costs and thus reducing the cost of the food you pay for? No. I grew up in farmland. Half of my family are farmers. They are doing well without broadband access...in fact some of them don't even have computers. How exactly is broadband access going to bring efficiency to farming?said by BF69:using you logic is a waste of money to build paved roads, electricity and phone service to his farm because it just him and few cows. That is not what I wrote. | |
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| | Neat! Can i has?
- A
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LETS GO METS! | |
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Reviews:
 ·Armstrong Zoom ..
| No fiber, No need If the fiber is not strung it makes no difference.
I do not think the issue in the US is reducing CO costs, the issue is stringing the fiber to begin with. Why would anyone want to run a huge bundle of fiber out to cover just a few farms and homes? The only way this was ever done was with the government getting involved, with telephone wires (copper), to the homes because everyone needed a phone.
So I do not see it really an issue. The issue is does anyone want to spend the money running the fiber to rural areas? It is a tough thing to do. There can be miles and miles where there is no house at all, and if there is, they may not pay/want the service.
Many people in my area have already done work-arounds. For example, for broadband they either have DSL (yes, even in the middle of no where), wireless or cable for broadband. TV is DirecTV or Dish, and for phone either VOIP, cellular or just pots. So when you where to poll the rural market, I bet you would get maybe 1 out of ten homes to pay for it. Whats the point? | |
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| iansltx
join:2007-02-19
Golden, CO
kudos:2 Reviews:
·Verizon Online DSL
·Comcast
| Re: No fiber, No need If a LEC rolls out fiber, people would likely be willing to drop sat TV for it. Also, in rural areas DSL is slow and wireless, where available, is generally even slower. If you put fiber past people's homes in rural areas I'd think that the acceptance rate would be more like 50-75%. Just offer DSL-speed packages to start with, and for the other services match or undercut prices by a buck or two for superior service, and you're golden.
Anyway, even 19 miles is a heckuva lot better than DSL. 37? Theoretically even places like central Texas, where cities are rather spread out, could have fiber served from a single central office in town to customers all the way out in the boonies.
Me? We can't get DSL, and by my calculations we should be able to get 1.5M...if it was provided, which it isn't. | |
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| | me1212
join:2008-11-20
Pleasant Hill, MO | Re: No fiber, No need "If a LEC rolls out fiber, people would likely be willing to drop sat TV for it. Also, in rural areas DSL is slow and wireless, where available, is generally even slower. If you put fiber past people's homes in rural areas I'd think that the acceptance rate would be more like 50-75%. Just offer DSL-speed packages to start with, and for the other services match or undercut prices by a buck or two for superior service, and you're golden."
I agree with all of that, but here it would be like 80+% for people getting the highspeed. We had wireless now(512/128) its great, but I would like more. If the fiber had no cap I would drop dish and go all IPTV. | |
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| | | iansltx
join:2007-02-19
Golden, CO
kudos:2 Reviews:
·Verizon Online DSL
·Comcast
| Re: No fiber, No need I was being conservative  Even in areas where better HSI options are available (DOCSIS 1.1, ADSL) you'd probably get a good amount of people switching to fiber if the seller doesn't screw it up. If an area has WiMAX, ADSL and/or DOCSIS 1.1 change rates probably apply. If an area has DOCSIS 2 or ADSL2+, people might not be as willing to switch, as the performance benefit isn't that great. For areas with DOCSIS 3, it depends...plenty of people will probably switch, but not quite as many as if they're having to live with older technologies.
That said, if fiber came here, even though we have DOCSIS 1.1 and ADSL, the take rate would likely be 75% or more; college students 3 bandwidth. | |
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| | | | me1212
join:2008-11-20
Pleasant Hill, MO | Re: No fiber, No need I live about 8mi from the city limits(we live in the city but just the rural part, not not the "big" part) has comcast and the want to upgrade the whole city to DOCSIS 3 this year so maybe we will get 1.1 soon, there is a new subdivision out this way about 1.5mi from my house. IF they get out here I will get a business account as they have no cap. I am getting acun.com this year(unless CC get out hear first) cause I will be going to college and do not want to mess with my parents internet as we use VoIP and if I have to do something big I do not want to mess it up. | |
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| | | | | Careful what you wish for. The only IPTV provider in the U.S that I know of is at&t U-Verse. I have them in SoCal. It's not that great overall. The boxes are buggy, the image quality is sometimes jittery and compressed. They do offer a lot of channels, but it's overly expensive. I had FiosTV, which is NOT IPTV, and it was simply much better using plain ole cable technology over fiber. Imagine that.... | |
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| | | | me1212
join:2008-11-20
Pleasant Hill, MO | Re: No fiber, No need I meant like hulu and netflix. I hear centurytel has it, and »Fairpoint Testing IPTV Service I do not see me getting 1.5m for at least a year out here. | |
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|  danclan
join:2005-11-01
Midlothian, VA | said by keyboard5684:If the fiber is not strung it makes no difference. I do not think the issue in the US is reducing CO costs, the issue is stringing the fiber to begin with. Why would anyone want to run a huge bundle of fiber out to cover just a few farms and homes? cause its not a huge bundle its a few pairs that can handle the volume that a few thousand copper pairs can and with no threat to be stolen by copper thieves and no need to power all that copper so its an expense but quickly recouped through lower maintenance costs.
Heck if they could recycle their own copper they would do it in a second and further drive down their expense. | |
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| | me1212
join:2008-11-20
Pleasant Hill, MO | Re: No fiber, No need I think so my dab bought our place in like 80 or 81 and it had a party line till 84. Now our house uses VoIP our land has seen every kind of phone. 
The thing with the DSLAM sounds great, I hope embarq does that so we can get DSL. | |
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| | Lazlow
join:2006-08-07
Saint Louis, MO | They had this same exact argument for both phone and electricity. At the time both were considered luxury items and not really necessary to most people's lives, just like many are saying about internet now.
As far as DSL goes; just try getting it when you live on a farm 19 miles out (or even 10 miles out). Most companies will not even think about it before they tell you, NO. Same for a T1. They usually will give you an ISDN line for the $70/month at 128k. | |
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| | | Reviews:
·Armstrong Zoom ..
| Re: No fiber, No need Here they will run a T1 ANYWHERE, it does not matter where it is, they will do it (but it will cost about $700+ a month per T1). Regulation I think forces them to, but that may just be a Pennsylvania thing?
Many wireless providers sometime go this route, if they have to. Some of the wealthy in the rural areas will buy a T1 or I have heard of a bunch of neighbors share a T1 using wireless.
Odd thing is that here, DSL is deployed in rural areas using DSLAMs because they have to. A community has to get 20 (I think it is 20) signatures and send in some forms and DSL has to be provided. For some, it is great but most the distance causes DSL to be just better than dialup. This was part of the deal Verizon made with PA. | |
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| | | | | | Re: No fiber, No need T-1's use existing copper so the lines are already there. Only things that need to be droped are repeaters | |
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 tiger72SexaT duorPPremium
join:2001-03-28
Saint Louis, MO
kudos:1 | Old News I've got a few of these in my back yard. | |
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 DrModemPremium
join:2006-10-19
USA
kudos:1 | 37 Miles Could cover my entire rural county with one CO, and then some. | |
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See 7 replies to this post |
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| | A bigger deal than it sounds One of the biggest slowdowns to rural fiber-ification was the high cost of equipment versus return. If you ran a fiber you had to deal with customer density. Now that you've effectively doubled the distance for PON you've made the density issue less relevant. More customers on fewer fiber runs. | |
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| me1212
join:2008-11-20
Pleasant Hill, MO | Re: A bigger deal than it sounds +1. all the costumer 1/2 the cost. | |
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| | Dumb question What is the current distribution of COs in rural areas? Around here they are about 6-8 miles apart, but that is probably because of older copper technology in an old city.
If 19 miles is the limit of copper and rural COs in the US are already distributed at 19 mile intervals, then this is an invention without a use. You can't demolish existing COs because we won't be 100% copper-free for another 80 years. | |
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| | | Re: Dumb question "640k ought to be enough for anybody." | |
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 XBL2009------
join:2001-01-03
Chicago, IL | I hate all these breakthroughs announcements I hate all these breakthroughs announcements since they never get deployed.
Make an announcement when you have it all wired up and can provide service. | |
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| Nuts65
join:2006-04-27
Forest, OH | Re: I hate all these breakthroughs announcements So Say We All!! | |
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| me1212
join:2008-11-20
Pleasant Hill, MO | Re: Seems Strange! That would be cool! | |
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|  IgnitePremium,VIP
join:2004-03-18
UK | said by Mr Matt: Why would it be necessary to install a Raman amplifier in a central office? If I was a fiber hardware designer, the first thing that I would do would be to see if a Raman amplifier could be incorporated in a fiber repeater. The repeater could be installed mid span and would extend the range of the circuit to 74 Miles. Kinda goes against the idea of a PON / Passive Optical Network when you introduce amplification 
PON runs on a high powered laser on an OLT at the CO feeding a fibre which is split and terminates at ONTs at consumer premises. | |
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| | | If you need such an amp to get TO the customer, how does it get back? Do you need to install equally powerful and expensive Raman amplifiers in EACH of the customers' homes? Is that safe? | |
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| | IgnitePremium,VIP
join:2004-03-18
UK | Re: BIG problem! said by JoesphM :
If you need such an amp to get TO the customer, how does it get back? Do you need to install equally powerful and expensive Raman amplifiers in EACH of the customers' homes? Is that safe?
No - remember that a single laser is split between up to 64 homes with GPON. A single home on a 64 split is only receiving 1/64th of the transmitted signal power, not counting insertion loss of optical splitter.
On the return path signals are combined, the only losses are insertion loss and link attenuation so less power needed. | |
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Pv8man
join:2008-07-24
Hammond, IN | Slow news days? News has seemed slow the past 3 days.
Probably yesterday for st.patty's day, and today for the hangover. | |
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 io chicoPremium
join:2003-12-30
Magalia, CA
·DigitalPath
| I want my BroadBand Everyone talks about one farm/home per xx miles. I live 4 miles out of town in an 11 mile long canyon. There are 650 homes here and most are very close, if not on the road. No one finds it profitable to deliver broadband. I'm a member of HughesNet forum here, and you will find most people aren't 'that' rural and yet have no options.
Our stimulus package ought to require that no other service (besides satellite) is available. I'm sick of hearing announcements of yet another service becoming available in Philly, Portland, DC, etc.
I'd be happy with 1 MB. | |
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Core0000Premium
join:2008-05-04
Somerset, KY | Wow! Thanks for bring this to our attention mr. Karl Bode.
This is seriously awesome news~! | |
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 airshark--... ...-- -.. . -. -.... .-.. -.--Premium
join:2003-05-20
Hollister, CA
1 edit | old news 1. This is not ideally for FTTH fiber deployments. The cost and requirement for less bulkheaded connectors and truly pure fiber means this is meant for long-haul carrier backbone fiber transport systems. The idea is to eliminate the cost of additional regens over a long segment of transmission fiber.
2. Raman amplifiers have been around for years. I went to a Ciena training class in Colorado in 2002 when they were beginning to be deployed in their product line. I'm sure they were not the first to employ Raman amplifiers in their span design. | |
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Seems Strange!