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Lavasoft Responds
About as clear as mud...
(old news - 09:31AM Monday Feb 21 2005)
tags: spyware
Lavasoft has issued their official response to user criticism that they pulled WhenU software from their adware detection database without informing users. They aren't clear on whether they were pressured by WhenU, though they do indicate they'll restructure the way they detect spyware threats:
"We realized that the Threat Assessment Chart (TAC) was too rigid and needed to be strengthened so that it would not only better reflect the true purpose of Ad-Aware, but would also improve its reporting capabilities. The new TAC will not only allow us to retain, but will allow us to add more content, as well as highlight improvements in vendor offerings through a detailed color assessment code that will be more obvious to the user and thus provide better information for their decision making."

The company will now include an uninstaller for any application they decide to remove from their detection database. Of course if they're not detecting it, customers won't know WhenU apps are installed; a bit of flawed logic that isn't fully explained.
In response to recent public discussions about the removal of certain programs from the AD-AWARE definition files, Lavasoft has developed a new policy, whereby a stand-alone uninstaller will be made available for individual programs removed from detection, and will remain available until Lavasoft completes a post-removal monitoring and reevaluation process.

The post also announces the creation of a new forum where "public debate can occur between the privacy community and the vendors (who will be welcomed to join and actively participate in open discussions)".

The Lavasoft post feels more like a political speech (complete with color coded warning system) than an apology or solid explanation. Judging from user response, it fails to quell user fears that some form of WhenU pressure played a role in the methodology changes. Spyware researcher Ben Edelman stops by our forums and shares his thoughts on the new detection criteria and why it doesn't go far enough.

Related:
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  5. Gator Finally Dies
  6. Why Is NY's AG Urging ISPs To Embrace Spyware Company?
  7. Zango (180Solutions) Closes Up Shop
  8. Phorm Loses Key Executives
Forums » Lavasoft Responds
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oliphant
I Have 8 Boobies
Premium
join:2004-11-26
Corona, CA


4 edits

Bye Lavasoft

Nice usin' ya. Is detection such the problem that including an uninstaller is okay but going so far as to notify us of the existence (detection) is? If it warrants the inclusion of an uninstaller, it should warrant inclusion in detection.

But obviously I'm missing something since if we're supposed to use Ad Aware as I'm sure Lavasoft woudl like...how are we supposed to know that the 'offending' item is even installed so we can go get their uninstaller if it's not going to report the detection?

Smells fishy, more like damage control than a true change of 'heart'.

SSX4life
Premium
join:2004-02-13
·RoadRunner Cable

Re: Bye Lavasoft

I'll keep using lavasoft.

They use a good (free) product for basic ad ware removal. If you don't like it you can always go elsewhere for other peices of software. However I do not see an issue with this, "yes they should just do a flat out removal of software, but it's their decision isn't it?". I disagree with the fact that companies try to bury their legitamacy in side tactics.

However due to their track record I will continue to use their software until they do not meet my needs....... well not my needs, the needs of people's pc's I fix.

--SSX--
--
New PC Setup
Asus A8V rev 2.0
AMD Athlon 64 socket 939 3200+ 90nm
Radeon 9800 Pro
2 X 36.5 gig Western Digital Raptors in Raid - 0
1 gig OCZ 3500 memory
Anime-4ever.org

cork1958
Cork

join:2000-02-26
Fruitport, MI
·Verizon Online DSL
·Charter Pipeline

Re: Bye Lavasoft

said by SSX4life See Profile:

I'll keep using lavasoft.

They use a good (free) product for basic ad ware removal. If you don't like it you can always go elsewhere for other peices of software. However I do not see an issue with this, "yes they should just do a flat out removal of software, but it's their decision isn't it?". I disagree with the fact that companies try to bury their legitamacy in side tactics.

However due to their track record I will continue to use their software until they do not meet my needs....... well not my needs, the needs of people's pc's I fix.

--SSX--
Yep. Same here. So far, it's only 1 item, of which I haven't seen in ages anyway. Probably because I use Opera anyway. It's always been a good product, especially for free, so hopefully, what it doesn't detect, Spybot will. But, like I said, I use Opera and haven't had any spyware in I don't know how long. These products usually just find the usual tracking cookies and MUI's.
--
Spread Opera, fastest browser on earth or Cyberspace!
Plldwnyrpnts

join:2003-04-19
Chicago, IL

Re: Bye Lavasoft

Here's another reason to not give up on Adaware.

So many other programs find less spyware on your system than Adaware. You can basically catagorize Adaware with them. Less reliable.

But if you think ONE spyware/adware remover is all you need, you're only fooling yourself. Whenever I run into an infected system that I'm going to try to clean, I use: Adaware, Spybot, MS Antispyware thingy (now anyway), Trendmicro's home scan, Hijack this, AVG and whatever old virus program that was previously installed.

IhatemyISP
MM2 Corbski
Premium
join:2003-01-27
Japan
I uninstalled it as well.

Toymaster
Premium
join:2001-12-27
Flint, MI
clubs:
I will stick with Spybot Search and Destroy...along with my donations...:)
--
Join SETI Now!

Slidetbone
Mazin Go
Premium
join:2002-11-10
Land O Lakes, FL

BS! Big time BS!
The user will never know when to use it. What a joke.
And this is the admission we have been waiting for?
This is the million dollar worded explanation they give. So short of admitting that they got paid off by WhenU.

Bye bye Lavasoft

SweetDelight
lagomorph
Premium
join:2004-09-04
Earth

good

good

ColdFiltered

join:2005-01-25
Atlanta, GA

What is WhenU and why should I fear it?

I am asking this for myself, but I am also sure others would equally like to be enlightened as well. And if Ad-Aware is no longer going to detect it, what alternatives are there for people like myself?

TheJoker
Premium,VIP,MVM
join:2001-04-26
Alexandria, VA

Re: What is WhenU and why should I fear it?

How will making a stand-alone uninstaller for items removed from their detection help? If it won't be detected through their scanning, how in the world will you know you even need it?
--
TheJoker

33591094

join:2002-11-19
Canada

Re: What is WhenU and why should I fear it?

Bang on Joker - great observation.

These "uninstallers" are obviously an attempt to please both sides of the fence. This way any deal they've made with WhenU regarding their def files is still valid.

raydog1
Feel Secure
Premium
join:2003-07-10
La Vergne, TN
And if WhenU is OK in Lavasoft's eyes, shouldn't it be easily unistalled through Add/Remove Programs like any other legitimate application? It makes no sense to create a third party uninstaller for a specific app unless it is spyware or a virus.
friscotx64

join:2005-01-24
Frisco, TX

said by ColdFiltered See Profile:

I am asking this for myself, but I am also sure others would equally like to be enlightened as well. And if Ad-Aware is no longer going to detect it, what alternatives are there for people like myself?
ColdFiltered,

It doesn't look like anyone really bothered to answer your question - as asked, just used it as a springboard to express more opinions.

I think your question deserves a well-thought-out answer. I'm reasonably confident that there are a number of members and/or visitors to this forum who have a great deal of experience and could articulate it better than I. In the meantime, however, may I refer you to another thread on BBR: Please read the thread - and all related links - by "eburger68" (Eric L. Howes) at: »FTC Spyware Workshop: 1st Impressions

There is a wealth of information there, about WhenU, Gator, and others - more information, perhaps, than you even wanted to know. But - speaking for myself - if was an eye-opening education!!

friscotx
digital k
Premium
join:2003-12-25

Hindsight is 20/20

I think they are realizing what a dumb thing they did, and the backlash it caused. This is just a halfhearted attempt at redemption, but I am pretty certain their credentials are
tarnished.

Nightshade
sic semper tyrannis
Premium
join:2002-05-26
Salem, OR

Re: Hindsight is 20/20

Tarnished? More like totally comprimised and competely worthless, like their Ad-aware.

Ha. What a freakin' joke in their response and their so called uninstallers for spyware that is found.

I DO NOT want more CRAP installed on my system as the RESULT of the CRAPPY scan result that will create an uninstaller to remove the freakin' CRAP in the FIRST PLACE!!!

Yeah Lavasoft real smart on that one. Do they not know that windows uninstaller has a nortious habit of leaving things behind!!!

Worthless, just worthless.
--
Just say "no" to bad code
davork

join:1999-08-21
Jersey City, NJ

Re: Hindsight is 20/20

Actually it's the install kits that are crappy...

If you create a decent ununstall script you can capture lots of things... believe me... been there a few times recently

Nightshade
sic semper tyrannis
Premium
join:2002-05-26
Salem, OR

Re: Hindsight is 20/20

Then my question is how do you create a good, decent uninstall script and is there any resources that you can give me to help me?

I know nothing at all about javascript beyond rudmentary basics. I do, however have a Java book for reference and the latest Java 2 runtime enviroment version, as well as Dreamweaver MX 2004 at my disposal.

Any help or advice will be appreciated. Thank you.
--
Just say "no" to bad code

Varlik
Without Honor You Will Never Be Free
Premium
join:2002-01-06
Anderson, SC

Well this is certainly comforting

"The new TAC will not only allow us to retain, but will allow us to add more content, as well as highlight improvements in vendor offerings"
--
"Sir SIR! We don't use DHCP servers. We only use IBM & Microsoft servers." From there my call to tech support went steadily downhill.

Plexxxy

join:2003-02-02
West Palm Beach, FL

BS

quote:
The post also announces the creation of a new forum where "public debate can occur between the privacy community and the vendors (who will be welcomed to join and actively participate in open discussions)".
Well, there you have it. To me, that's an open admission that Lavasoft is getting kickbacks from these adware/spyware vendors to remove detection...it's just sugar coated in PR wording to fool the gullible. TAC my arse.

Grrr, scumbags

cdru
Go Colts
Premium,MVM
join:2003-05-14
Fort Wayne, IN

Bye bye Ad Aware

Well, probably not bye bye. But your not exactly going to be at the top of my recommendation list anymore. I've always used you first because I thought you were the most through. You always picked up the most things, often things others didn't find. But alas no more. I'm sure you still might pick up things that others miss, but now it's obvious that they are going to pick up things that you missed. Or should that be chose to let pass through.
codydog

join:2001-11-29
Newport, RI

Re: Bye bye Ad Aware

Maybe this is more an admission that a free product wasn't paying their bills, health insurance etc. I can't really blame them.

But I also think if someone came out with a spybot/adaware type product and charged realistic market rates and paid thier people real salaries, what would customers pay for it? And not pirate it to their friends etc so the company got real revenues and didnt depend on some big company buying them out, so the owners could pay their bills on time..

I'd guess the product would be in the $50 range, which would deter many from legitimately buying it. What do you think?

cdru
Go Colts
Premium,MVM
join:2003-05-14
Fort Wayne, IN

Re: Bye bye Ad Aware

said by codydog See Profile:

Maybe this is more an admission that a free product wasn't paying their bills, health insurance etc. I can't really blame them.
So it would be ok for Symantec or McAfee to not detect certain viruses because it wasn't high on their threat assessment chart?

Ad Aware was (notice past tense) a program that removed adware and spyware. When you start removing that functionality because the authors no longer feel that its a threat to your system it defeats the purpose. WhenU is still adware and it's still installed on infected systems. It doesn't matter if WhenU is the greatest software serves a useful purpose. It's still adware.

The fact that Adware has a free version is beside the point. If it wasn't paying the bills it's not the public's problem. Their business method was flawed. When your product is advertised as doing one thing, yet it fails at it, then that is the problem.

Adware simply sold out. From the official response: "The new TAC will not only allow us to retain, but will allow us to add more content, as well as highlight improvements in vendor offerings through a detailed color assessment code that will be more obvious to the user and thus provide better information for their decision making." (Emphasis added). When changes in adware/spyware goes from being bad for your system to highlighting "improvements in vendor offerings", something is seriously wrong.
Rammer
Premium
join:2001-03-06
clubs:
·AT&T Southeast

Re: Bye bye Ad Aware

So it would be ok for Symantec or McAfee to not detect certain viruses because it wasn't high on their threat assessment chart

who here can say without a single doubt that they dont
or for that matter how can you tell if a program that is suppose too catch adware ,spyware
does indeed find all of it--or let some slip through
or who can say they know how many kinds are yet too be written--
you use these programs for free at ---your own --risk --i might add---then bitch and moan about them

if you dont trust adaware remove it-but you might think about removing every single program you have too detect spy ware--because none of them are as trust worthy as you seem too think


BillRoland
Premium
join:2001-01-21
Ocala, FL
clubs:
·Cox HSI

Re: Bye bye Ad Aware

said by Rammer See Profile:

who here can say without a single doubt that they dont or for that matter how can you tell if a program that is suppose too catch adware ,spyware
does indeed find all of it--or let some slip through
or who can say they know how many kinds are yet too be written--
you use these programs for free at ---your own --risk --i might add---then bitch and moan about them
Maybe because their virus definitions don't ever DECREASE? Come on man, how hard is it to figure out something is going bad when your updates for "new definitions" contain less than the last one? Has anyone ever heard of an antivirus vendor doing that? What LavaSoft did here is roughly the equivalent of Norton doing the following: "Oh, looky at that, Sasser now comes with a EULA and a uninstaller (that doesn't work but looks good), so quick, take it out of the defs." I don't think so.

said by Rammer See Profile:

you use these programs for free at ---your own --risk --i might add---then bitch and moan about them
You might have had even a remotely valid point, except you failed to realize that even the PAID versions of Ad-Aware don't detect WhenU now. So assuming I bought and paid for Ad-Aware, and to have the product handicapped like this, I have every right to complain about it all I want.

You are really lost. Being eluded by tricky spyware, is not something that anyone would get in arms about. What we are mad about is that last month they could easily detect WhenU, and today Ad-Aware will not. Not because it can't, but because they WON'T let it.
--
"Don't steal. The government hates competition."
garitaar1

join:2005-02-21
Minneapolis, MN

Interesting - the suggestion that Ad-Aware has a flawed business plan. I would counter that one should never trust anyone who appears to be providing a service for free, especially if the whole thing is about trust. Any ad-removal company is in the perfect position to provide "protection" for the fox that they claim to police. Nothing is free. All "free" but non-open spyware and antiviral tools should be viewed with the greatest of suspision.

Do not confuse my statements about "free" with open source, which is not really free, either, but is less likely than any to have deliberate impediments.

Microsoft has a tool and it is not free. You do not pay extra for it specifically, however, because Microsoft has decided that you should have such protection as part of what you already purchased. This upgrade/addition is now considered part of the OS, so you already paid your money for it.

The day that the MS anti-spyware tool came into beta, I ran the Lavasoft tool's latest code at it's fullest mode. I then loaded and ran the Microsoft. The Microsoft tool found four uninvited lurking pieces of code and removed the spyware infections.

For all of my MS-based machines, I will run the MS anti-spyware tool. None others are truly trustworthy – short of an open source project – but there is no motivation for such a project.

My company's Sun and Linux machines get no browsing, but if they did, I would hope that some open source team would engage for those OSs.

BillRoland
Premium
join:2001-01-21
Ocala, FL
clubs:
·Cox HSI

And there it is

As I suspected (and many others), LavaSoft's response is just not satisfactory. They appear completely unwilling or unable to admit that they messed up, and are going to extraordinary lengths to convince everyone that the sky is red not blue. These people and their product have no credibility left. That response was worthy of a politician.
--
"Don't steal. The government hates competition."

dadkins
Can you do Blu?
Premium,MVM
join:2003-09-26
Hercules, CA
·Comcast

Look,

Just detect anything that is possibly malware, and let the user decide what stays and what goes... you are almost there now. I have to Select All then click Next and it all gets removed... all that was detected that is.

What part of I HATE CRAP don't you understand? WhenU is crap, Gator/Claria is crap, VX2 is crap, IstBar is crap... see a pattern here?

Fsck spyware, fsck adware, fsck malware! I *WILL* remove that BS with or without your(Lavasoft Ad-Aware) help!
You didn't step in it Lavasoft, you fell face-first in it!

mph300
Two Thirds The Way There

join:2000-11-09

Re: Look,

Bravo, Bravo:D

jmn1207
Premium
join:2000-07-19
Reston, VA
·Verizon FIOS

said by dadkins See Profile:

Just detect anything that is possibly malware, and let the user decide what stays and what goes...
Hey dadkins,

You already have that malware detector. It's called Explorer. (or any similar variation used for your operating system)
guthrieboi

join:2005-02-05
Guthrie, OK

Re: Look,

Lavasoft made getting the spies out of our computer, but I guess they made it too easy for us. Now we have to learn what to look for and what to do about it so that we can quit relying on sell out products like theirs.

dadkins
Can you do Blu?
Premium,MVM
join:2003-09-26
Hercules, CA
·Comcast

said by jmn1207 See Profile:

said by dadkins See Profile:


Just detect anything that is possibly malware, and let the user decide what stays and what goes...
Hey dadkins,

You already have that malware detector. It's called Explorer. (or any similar variation used for your operating system)
Thing is though, not all of it is is easily "seen" with Explorer. Some of the computers I work on are so hosed, it would take me all weekend to clean them out manually. That's what tools are for, let them get the bulk of the BS... I'll get what is left over.
No matter how you look at it, WhenU/Gator/Bonzi Buddy/(insert crap here_______) needs to go. There are ALOT of dlls that are a royal pain to manually detect and remove, hence the anti-spyware/adware apps.

Does anyone want to use an axe to cut down a tree, or would they rather use a chainsaw(power tool)?

jmn1207
Premium
join:2000-07-19
Reston, VA
·Verizon FIOS

Re: Look,

There is no surefire method to completely protect all users at all times from these applications while maintaining a level of freedom and accessibility most have come to rely on. You either have to use multiple detection and removal tools or you have to continually research and configure rules and settings to prevent these malicious utilities from being allowed to install in the first place. Neither option is very practical when dealing with numerous users spanning vastly different levels of degrees in technical knowledge.

I feel your pain. If it wasn't a major concern I suppose we wouldn't be discussing it.
Eye4got

join:2004-06-02
Lancaster, PA

When I am dealing with a user who seems to repeatedly get certain spyware, I create a user account (that won't be used) on their machine, zero-byte the offending .EXE and .DLL, and give ownership of the offending files and regkeys to the dummy account. Most spywares I run into can't recopy of reinstall after that. It helps me when the user doesn't know what they are doing that caused the offending spyware to be installed in the first place.
kurtman843

join:2004-03-25
Greensburg, PA

This is Comforting~

"The new TAC will not only allow us to retain, but will allow us to add more content, as well as highlight improvements in vendor offerings through a detailed color assessment code that will be more obvious to the user and thus provide better information for their decision making."

Wow...Maybe the USERS can choose the "colors of the week" for naughty or nice Crapware...ooops..."Vendors".......
Mutiny32
Network Security Engineer

join:2000-07-04
Lees Summit, MO

Remember when?

Remember when Adaware didn't care who you were; if you were creating adware, malware, or spyware, they would kick you to the curb? Yeah. What happened? Don't try to make it easier for the adware companies to get around your software, just make it work and work good.

Basically what they said is that they are working with the spyware companies. I don't want them to. I want them to not give two shits about the feelings of a company making money off of me unwillingly looking at advertisements on my computer.

Grail Knight
Who Dares Wins
Premium
join:2003-05-31
·Verizon Online DSL


1 edit

Ad-Aware I hardly knew you...

My confidence is shaken so I will not be seeing you on my machine again old friend.
In your prime you were one of the best and I always trusted you to do the right thing.

To bad your creators chose a different path to follow and turned to the Dark Side.

So long Ad-Aware.

*Edited for spelling.

dadkins
Can you do Blu?
Premium,MVM
join:2003-09-26
Hercules, CA
·Comcast


1 edit

Lavasoft is in Sweden...

Where are these crapware vendors located? How can lawyers pressure a Sweden based company?

Or is Lavasoft just that... SOFT? No cojones?

Sh*t is sh*t, they are allowing sh*t to pressure them?

HEY! WhenU! Byte this! Come get ME! Bring it! Your sh*t WILL be removed from *ALL* computers I touch! WTF are you going to do about it? So what Lavawhimp is scared of you, others aren't! I'm surely not!

Slidetbone
Mazin Go
Premium
join:2002-11-10
Land O Lakes, FL

No cojones for Lavasoft

Check this out. It even has a spyware-safe badge on it! sheesh! Lavasoft was paid off big time!

»www.whenu.com/privacy_center.html

Just spent time reading off their web (of course watching out for intentional installation of their crapware).


Learn About WhenU
home / learn about whenu
WhenU is client-side, privacy protecting, desktop advertising software that is designed to provide informed consumers with relevant choice and value in their Web experience. As a WhenU consumer, you are privileged to receive special offers, coupons and deals that consistently exceed your expectations and deliver money-saving offers from brand-name retailers right to your desktop


BALONEY! Priviledged to receive?
I get to pick what I want in my PC. They don't. And thats where the problem is. It is an invasion of privacy aka SPYWARE! It does not matter how they paint it, it is spyware. It hogs my resources and annoys me with pop-ups. I can care less what web page the recommend. It's the internet version of junk mail.

So Lavasoft, hope you enjoy the payoff.
Samwoo

join:2002-02-15
Rancho Palos Verdes, CA

Re: No cojones for Lavasoft

?! link doesn't work.

Mr Fuji

@69.156.x.x


from:
dadkins See Profile

Re

Here is something that i have never understood

How can WhenU and the others spywares companies whine about a product that can detect theirs if the user is supposed to know that it is on their comp in the first place ? As far as i know , Ad aware and Spybot detect spywares/malwares but they don't remove them automatically.The USER still have to checkbox what he want to remove and then press delete so basically it's still up to the user decision and not the program itself.

So if WhenU was really legit ,then they wouldn't whine about this because the majority of users would agree to have that junk on their computers and therefore would be aware of WhenU presence and wouldn't need a program to detect it.

Sorry for my less than decent english

I hope that you got my point

SmashClam

@dynamic.cov

Re: Re

The reason a company like WhenU is upset about their software being detected as spyware/malware/adware/etc. is because most users will simply see a list of "38 malware files detected" and click REMOVE ALL, without stopping to determine what program they belong to - thus the vast majority of people will blindly remove WhenU, without realizing (or caring) what the program actually does.

TBYager

join:2004-09-14
Carbondale, IL

Lavasoft Responds

I wonder if the people who work for these adware/spyware companies have any adware on THEIR computers?

mrchris
We don't miss you Bush
Premium
join:2002-10-01
North Babylon, NY

Maybe

They should just APOLOGIZE for the ruckus they caused!

Jeremy341
Bye
Premium
join:2000-01-06
localhost

Re: Maybe

said by mrchris See Profile:

They should just APOLOGIZE for the ruckus they caused!
Maybe they're not sorry...

WFO
Premium
join:2001-08-27
San Ramon, CA

Not Yet!

I'm not removing Ad-Aware yet since it is paid for. It is the last of the scans I run. Until LavaSoft proves themselves superior to the competition, they won't receive another dime. "nuff said!!!

ag1010

join:2001-06-11
Kenosha, WI

Microsoft?

I don't want to ruffle anybodies feathers, but at least once Microsoft's Antispyware app matures, they won't need any money from WhenU or any other suspicious advertiser to "NOT" detect them. Microsoft has all the money in the world and can't be bought!:)

Vvian Kalyss

join:2003-10-14
Stage 5.0
clubs:

Re: Microsoft?

Yes, but scum outfits like WhenU can go whining to the courts, "waaah they're discriminating against our software".
--
Mikami Vvian, resident Girlfriend of Steel, care of the Tokyo-3 Middle Daughters Club

DWarrant

@optonline.net

Can't wait for IE7

The Giant Anti-spyware (aka M$ now) works damn well. I guess I am dumping Lavasoft after that lame A$$ response. (And to the M$ flamers, M$ didn't sell out on the weatherbug issue. It can be removed easily through add/remove and all apps that install it warn you it is being installed w the option to not install) Hopefully M$ builds the Giant Spyware engine right into IE7. They are claiming it will have anti-spyware capabilities. I guess we'll see. Best part is M$ is so damn rich I don't think one needs to worry about them selling out to anyone. It wouldn't be in their interest anyhow as it's all this spyware and adware crap that mucks up their browser to begin with.

captokita
Premium
join:2005-02-22
Calabash, NC

So what else is missing?

Ok, so Lavasoft removed WhenU from it's list, what else have they removed that we don't know about?

If they're going to offer removal tools for products not detected, why don't they just detect them?

If they want to keep credibility, they should detect the problems, and have a link that says "We do not remove this potential threat, we leave it to you to decide. If you wish it removed, get the tool HERE" At least detect it!

As always, I'll use it, Spybot, and my other tools. Just won't put as much credit to Ad-aware any longer.
Forums » Lavasoft Respondspage: 1 · 2


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