republican-creole
site Search:


 
   
story category
Let's Be Clear: ISPs Don't Want Accurate Public Broadband Data
They want public data that paints a rosy picture & keeps government at bay...
by Karl Bode Wednesday 11-Feb-2009 tags: legal · competition · coverage · business · Op/Ed · legislation · Politics
New York Times tech columnist Saul Hansell, who only a few weeks ago called broadband coverage gaps "hooey," pens a piece today reminding us that $350 million of the broadband stimulus package passed yesterday will go toward mapping broadband coverage. That's incredibly important, since we have absolutely no idea who has broadband. That's in part due to incumbent operators and the FCC, who have collectively fought every effort to get this data into the hands of the public. Carriers repeat their mantra to the Times that releasing the data would only help competitors:

The Internet providers say they are afraid that if they published a map of the services they offered, competitors would know exactly what pitch to send to which customers. Yes, those rivals have other ways to find out where they do business, but none are as easy as downloading a complete list.

The largest broadband carriers already know precisely where, when and for how much their competitors offer service, and to assume otherwise is naive. Most ISPs not only already know where a competitor offers service, they offer their employees bounties for spotting new installations immediately (Comcast employees have told us the cable company has done this with U-Verse). Billion-dollar carriers don't deploy into markets blindly, and while making this data public would certainly be cheaper, the data is available to competitors either way.

Make no mistake: the real reason carriers don't want accurate broadband mapping is because they don't want public data highlighting how little competition they face in many markets. Data highlighting the industry's lack of competition would derail the traditional telecom lobbyist argument that ceaseless industry deregulation is the path to telecom nirvana. Consumers who have just one (or no) carrier(s) in their town were of course already clued in.

If we're going to fix the problem, we need to be clear that lobbying pressure from carriers (along with general dysfunction) is why the FCC has been relying on inaccurate broadband data for the better part of a decade now. The FCC has taken a largely hands-off deregulatory approach to the industry, justifying the position with its own data suggesting everything is looking good. That's despite repeated studies by the GAO (pdf) and others that show that FCC broadband data -- for a lack of a more elegant term -- is utter garbage.

If the federal government is about to spend up to $9 billion on broadband, it needs to know with a high degree of specificity who is providing broadband now, what technologies are being employed and at what speeds.
-Drew Clark, Broadband Census
This isn't to say that government will do a very good job fixing the problem. Given their fondness for industry lobbyist cash, the potential is very real that Uncle Sam could actually make things worse. But if we're going to spend billions fixing the problem -- the very least we can do is to ensure we're making decisions based on sound science. We may have already started out on the wrong foot.

The Times is only the latest to give face time to Connected Nation, a new group that hopes to take State funds in order to map penetration. Unfortunately, Hansell fails to note the controversy surrounding the group; they've been accused (by consumer advocates and small ISPs) of being little more than a policy lobbying vehicle of major incumbents -- tasked with using taxpayer dollars to shine up the nation's broadband problems, while protecting carrier interests.

Connected Nation denies the charges, and their broad bi-partisan and carrier support all but ensures they'll be a primary player in any broadband infrastructure plan (whatever it winds up being). The group recently grew significantly stronger, including companies like Dell, Microsoft and Cisco in their "National Advisory Council to Accelerate Digital Inclusion for All Americans." If you believe Connected Nation, then you should have nothing to worry about. If you believe consumer advocates like Public Knowlege, we might simply be replacing bad data with bad data.

view: topics flat text 
Post a:
jkeelsnc

join:2008-08-22
Greensboro, NC

Not a surprise

Of course these companies are not going to accurately map out where broadband really is to reveal pockets that do not have coverage. Personally, I do not think that we should rely on the companies to do it. They are already adding caps while charging more money for the connections they already provide. Why should we count on them to be honest.

Instead, the government should do their own survey of users in every state. The incumbents can argue against it all they want. However, there is no regulation or legal precedent that would stop the federal government from doing this. Specifically, they cannot stop users from complaining and surveying with the government to collect accurate data. Then write off what the incumbents have to say. They have been screwing us all for a long time anyway. They cannot be trusted. Well the government cannot sometimes be trusted either. But with the new administration things are more transparent than before. AT&T, Verizon, Comcast, Charter, etc can go F&*& themselves.

Linklist
Premium
join:2002-03-03
Longport, NJ
kudos:5

1 edit

Re: Not a surprise

Include a question or 2 in the next census in 2010. That money has to be spent anyway. No sense wasting more millions on another gov't boondoggle.

p.s.>
said by jkeelsnc:

Well the government cannot sometimes be trusted either. But with the new administration things are more transparent than before.
Really? I think not.

batageek
Slave To The Duopoly
Premium
join:2003-01-25

Re: Not a surprise

One of the few times I agree with you...not on the govt. boondoggle part, but on the idea of getting real data.

Build any required questions into the Census. Most people know whom they're paying for service. Screw trying to get real data from the telcos & cablecos...
--
»www.tricitybroadband.com

fatness
subtle
Janitor
join:2000-11-17
fishing
kudos:14
Host:
Bright House Netwo..
TekSavvy
Forum Feature Requ..
Need Site Help
Rants, Raves, and ..
said by Linklist:

Include a question or 2 in the next census in 2010. That money has to be spent anyway. No sense wasting more millions on another gov't boondoggle.
You want to limit any useful broadband coverage data to once every 10 yeas?
--
goodbye dad

Linklist
Premium
join:2002-03-03
Longport, NJ
kudos:5

Re: Not a surprise

said by fatness:

said by Linklist:

Include a question or 2 in the next census in 2010. That money has to be spent anyway. No sense wasting more millions on another gov't boondoggle.
You want to limit any useful broadband coverage data to once every 10 yeas?
They do between-census updates of the every 10 years census every year anyway to update info. No reason why the broadband data wouldn't be included in these frequent modifications to the 10 yr census data.
--
My BLOG .. .. Internet News .. .. My Web Page

coldmoon
Premium
join:2002-02-04
Broadway, NC
Reviews:
·Windstream
Ok, so lets suppose we do add the questions to the census and we get actual data from those questions. Who determines what questions are asked and how do you structure those questions to get usable technical data?

Remember that there are still questions as to what Broadband really means. If the "experts" are still not on the same page, how do you expect any data from the public to shed light on this?
--
Returnil - 21st Century body armor for your PC

nixen
Rockin' the Boxen
Premium
join:2002-10-04
Alexandria, VA

Re: Not a surprise

said by coldmoon:

Ok, so lets suppose we do add the questions to the census and we get actual data from those questions. Who determines what questions are asked and how do you structure those questions to get usable technical data?

Remember that there are still questions as to what Broadband really means. If the "experts" are still not on the same page, how do you expect any data from the public to shed light on this?
Create a set of questions like:

1) Do you have Internet service
2) If the answer to #1 was "yes", is your connection:
    _ Dial-up
    _ Less than 1Mbps download
    _ Greater than 1Mbps but less than 10Mbps download
    _ Greater than 10 Mbps download

Or something to that effect.
--
The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. -- Bertrand Russell
nasadude

join:2001-10-05
Rockville, MD
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS

1 edit
said by Linklist:

Include a question or 2 in the next census in 2010. That money has to be spent anyway. No sense wasting more millions on another gov't boondoggle.

...
I had thought of that also, but the more I thought (oh, another several seconds or so) I realized that's not the answer either.

the reason is so many people DON'T have broadband because they don't want to pay for it of just don't want it period. I could see an issue with census data as indicating an area doesn't have broadband (even if it does) because a lot of people don't know if broadband is available to them or not. There is a potential issue in the other direction with people saying they can get it (whether they have it or not) because they saw a commercial for FIOS on TV and figured they could get it. I keep getting mailers from Verizon offering DSL and "digital" phone, but I have never been able to get DSL and expect I never will.

The way to get this data is from the ISPs themselves. If the govt has to pay them for the cost of assembling and copying the data, that's fine. But the only sure way to get accurate data is from the ISPs. Unless, of course, they lie to the govt.

pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
said by Linklist:

Include a question or 2 in the next census in 2010. That money has to be spent anyway. No sense wasting more millions on another gov't boondoggle.
Absolutely not. The purpose of the census is to determine how many people live in a particular state so that the proper number of congressional seats can be determined. Any other use, and any method other than a head count is unconstitutional.
--
Blagojevich / Madoff 2012!

Linklist
Premium
join:2002-03-03
Longport, NJ
kudos:5

Re: Not a surprise

said by pnh102:

said by Linklist:

Include a question or 2 in the next census in 2010. That money has to be spent anyway. No sense wasting more millions on another gov't boondoggle.
Absolutely not. The purpose of the census is to determine how many people live in a particular state so that the proper number of congressional seats can be determined. Any other use, and any method other than a head count is unconstitutional.
That was the purpose of the census back in the 1800's. Since then it has been turned in to a data mining operation to decide on what gov't programs need to be beefed up. Have you actually filled out a "full census form" in 2000 or 1990? There were dozens of questions on income, sex, age, ethnicity, religion, etc, etc.
--
My BLOG .. .. Internet News .. .. My Web Page

pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD

Re: Not a surprise

said by Linklist:

Have you actually filled out a "full census form" in 2000 or 1990? There were dozens of questions on income, sex, age, ethnicity, religion, etc, etc.
I refuse to do so. The government only needs to know how many people live in my house and nothing more.
--
Blagojevich / Madoff 2012!

Koil
Premium
join:2002-09-10
Irmo, SC
kudos:1

Re: Not a surprise

said by pnh102:

said by Linklist:

Include a question or 2 in the next census in 2010. That money has to be spent anyway. No sense wasting more millions on another gov't boondoggle.
Absolutely not. The purpose of the census is to determine how many people live in a particular state so that the proper number of congressional seats can be determined. Any other use, and any method other than a head count is unconstitutional.
said by pnh102:

said by Linklist:

Have you actually filled out a "full census form" in 2000 or 1990? There were dozens of questions on income, sex, age, ethnicity, religion, etc, etc.
I refuse to do so. The government only needs to know how many people live in my house and nothing more.
You think it to be unconstitutional. It hasn't been decreed that nor has it been outlawed as its been, and will be done again.

Your post makes it appear to be fact, when it most certainly isn't. As of right now, anyway.

funchords
Hello
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-11
Yarmouth Port, MA
kudos:6

Re: Not a surprise

Before this thread degenerates like those before it, please read »Re: Why not just as a part of the census? as well as the replies to it.

-- Robb (just saving time)
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon -- KJ7RL
... Do something! ...

Koil
Premium
join:2002-09-10
Irmo, SC
kudos:1

Re: Not a surprise

lol...Honestly, I hadn't seen those threads, so wasn't aware of the prior discussions. I'll leave it be, but saying something is, doesn't make it so.

pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
said by Koil:

You think it to be unconstitutional. It hasn't been decreed that nor has it been outlawed as its been, and will be done again.
Because it is unconstitutional. The Constitution is very clear about requiring an enumeration, or head count.

The Supreme Court affirmed this as well in 1999:

»www.oyez.org/cases/1990-1999/199···_98_404/
--
Blagojevich / Madoff 2012!

funchords
Hello
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-11
Yarmouth Port, MA
kudos:6

Re: Not a surprise

said by pnh102:

Absolutely not. The purpose of the census is to determine how many people live in a particular state so that the proper number of congressional seats can be determined. Any other use, and any method other than a head count is unconstitutional.
said by Koil:

You think it to be unconstitutional. It hasn't been decreed that nor has it been outlawed as its been, and will be done again.
Because it is unconstitutional. The Constitution is very clear about requiring an enumeration, or head count.

The Supreme Court affirmed this as well in 1999:

»www.oyez.org/cases/1990-1999/199···_98_404/
Read the page that you link -- it specifically says that the court found based on the statutory basis alone and avoided the constitutional question brought.

(Further, the question here has nothing to do with your "any other use" assertion, so your position that it is unconstitutional is not supported by that cite one bit.)
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon -- KJ7RL
... Do something! ...

pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD

Re: Not a surprise

said by funchords:

Read the page that you link -- it specifically says that the court found based on the statutory basis alone and avoided the constitutional question brought.
Exactly. If the Constitution was amended to allow sampling, that would be fine.
said by funchords:

(Further, the question here has nothing to do with your "any other use" assertion, so your position that it is unconstitutional is not supported by that cite one bit.)
And the Constitution itself does not authorize anything more than an enumeration, or head count. It says nothing about collecting demographic information beyond that. What I don't understand is numerous private companies compile such data. Why should the government duplicate the efforts of private industry?
--
Blagojevich / Madoff 2012!

Koil
Premium
join:2002-09-10
Irmo, SC
kudos:1

2 edits

Re: Not a surprise

said by pnh102 :
Why should the government duplicate the efforts of private industry?
Probably because the data collected by the govt. would be considered "unbiased"?

funchords
Hello
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-11
Yarmouth Port, MA
kudos:6

1 edit
Again, don't twist that case. That case was a suit to fight the idea of using statistical sampling versus a head-count. Nothing more.

said by pnh102:

Why should the government duplicate the efforts of private industry?
Bias? Efficiency? Accuracy?

From your point-of-view (why should government repeat the efforts), why not repeal the Census clause, since private companies already estimate the population of states, counties, cities, and towns?

Can you imagine the arguments over which company's or researcher's view of the population of Colorado versus New Mexico ought to decide the Congressional representation there?

Going beyond the original constitutional intent, there are other reasons worth weighing: Much of commerce relies on the free aggregated data (including the extra-constitutional data) provided by the Census bureau. Without that data, start-up companies would have to bear the burden of buying or accumulating the data or do without it; Either way, the small business suffers if the Census isn't done as it currently is being done.
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon -- KJ7RL
... Do something! ...

pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD

Re: Not a surprise

said by funchords:

From your point-of-view (why should government repeat the efforts), why not repeal the Census clause, since private companies already estimate the population of states, counties, cities, and towns?
Because no method of estimation is 100% accurate. A head count is the only possible way to find out who lives where and to distribute congressional districts evenly and fairly.

said by funchords:

Much of commerce relies on the free aggregated data (including the extra-constitutional data) provided by the Census bureau.
I find that very hard to believe. Private businesses need current population data, not data that could potentially be just under 10 years old. For them to depend on the census for such data would be unwise.
--
Blagojevich / Madoff 2012!

funchords
Hello
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-11
Yarmouth Port, MA
kudos:6

Re: Not a surprise

Since you're convinced this is a vast conspiracy to make maps, I'm not sure that I can convince you of anything.

But go visit the Census bureau's web site and see all the current products that are there. You might be surprised what this agency actually does.
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon -- KJ7RL
... Do something! ...

pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD

Re: Not a surprise

said by funchords:

Since you're convinced this is a vast conspiracy to make maps, I'm not sure that I can convince you of anything.
How is it a conspiracy?

This article claims explicitly that such data is needed.
--
Blagojevich / Madoff 2012!

funchords
Hello
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-11
Yarmouth Port, MA
kudos:6

Re: Not a surprise

said by pnh102:

How is it a conspiracy?
That's my question.
said by pnh102:

This article claims explicitly that such data is needed.
Because such data is needed.
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon -- KJ7RL
... Do something! ...

Ignite
Premium,VIP
join:2004-03-18
UK
I do love describing things as unconstitutional when it suits and discarding said constitution when it suits the point. Nearly as selective as the reading of said citation in this thread.

Linklist
Premium
join:2002-03-03
Longport, NJ
kudos:5

2 edits
said by pnh102:

said by Koil:

You think it to be unconstitutional. It hasn't been decreed that nor has it been outlawed as its been, and will be done again.
Because it is unconstitutional. The Constitution is very clear about requiring an enumeration, or head count.

The Supreme Court affirmed this as well in 1999:

»www.oyez.org/cases/1990-1999/199···_98_404/
I think this reply in the other earlier thread addresses the unconstitutional part:

the Constitution does permit the Census to do more than count heads... Read the actual text of the document:

Representation and direct Taxes shall be apportioned among the several States which may be included within this Union, according to their respective Numbers ... . The actual Enumeration shall be made within three Years after the first Meeting of the Congress of the United States, and within every subsequent Term of ten Years, in such Manner as they shall by Law direct.

See that part that says "in such Manner as they shall by Law direct" ? That basically means that Congress can, via legislation, add or subtract from the Census questions and information gathered. The Constitution only states that the Census MUST count people, but it does not prohibit or disallow further information to be gathered.
--
My BLOG .. .. Internet News .. .. My Web Page

birdfeedr
Premium,MVM
join:2001-08-11
Warwick, RI
kudos:8
said by pnh102:

Absolutely not. The purpose of the census is to determine how many people live in a particular state so that the proper number of congressional seats can be determined. Any other use, and any method other than a head count is unconstitutional.
So how come they ask a lot more than number of and age of people? Marital status, whether I consider myself caucasian or other, what's my family income, and a lot more.

This is the full form for 2010. »www.census.gov/2010census/pdf/20···book.pdf Full version wants to know about bathroom facilities, among many other seriously detailed things. Since the questions are presented to Congress, it seems reasonable to say it has the force of law. Constitution be damned, just do it, they say.

There's a shorter version that they use for most people, but trust me, it's not only about count.

pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD

Re: Not a surprise

said by birdfeedr:

So how come they ask a lot more than number of and age of people? Marital status, whether I consider myself caucasian or other, what's my family income, and a lot more.
Because the Census Bureau is not following the Constitution. Only a mere head count is required. Nothing more, nothing less.
--
Blagojevich / Madoff 2012!

nixen
Rockin' the Boxen
Premium
join:2002-10-04
Alexandria, VA

Re: Not a surprise

said by pnh102:

said by birdfeedr:

So how come they ask a lot more than number of and age of people? Marital status, whether I consider myself caucasian or other, what's my family income, and a lot more.
Because the Census Bureau is not following the Constitution. Only a mere head count is required. Nothing more, nothing less.
As with the 10-year interval, head count is the minimum prescribed. The census *could* be performed yearly, or even monthly, as it fits within the specified ten-year maximum interval. As with the head count, other things may be requested of respondents as they are not specifically excluded by the Constitution.
--
The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. -- Bertrand Russell

nixen
Rockin' the Boxen
Premium
join:2002-10-04
Alexandria, VA
said by pnh102:

said by Linklist:

Include a question or 2 in the next census in 2010. That money has to be spent anyway. No sense wasting more millions on another gov't boondoggle.
Absolutely not. The purpose of the census is to determine how many people live in a particular state so that the proper number of congressional seats can be determined. Any other use, and any method other than a head count is unconstitutional.
Really? Then they've been violating the Constitution for pretty much my entire life.

You might want to check the wording in the Constitution for the wording that specifically excludes collection of "extra" data.
--
The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. -- Bertrand Russell

Buttset

join:2001-11-12
Ladson, SC
Reviews:
·AT&T Southeast
Census data is supposed to be collected every 10 years for a single purpose. To determine how many Representatives each state would get in the House of Representatives. The only information the government needs to comply with the original intent of the law, is how many people live in a home. Period.

Using the Census data for any other purpose is unconstitutional, not to mention dumb. Haven't we given away too much already?

Linklist
Premium
join:2002-03-03
Longport, NJ
kudos:5

Re: Not a surprise

said by Buttset:

Census data is supposed to be collected every 10 years for a single purpose. To determine how many Representatives each state would get in the House of Representatives. The only information the government needs to comply with the original intent of the law, is how many people live in a home. Period.

Using the Census data for any other purpose is unconstitutional, not to mention dumb. Haven't we given away too much already?
You can complain it is unconstitutional all you want. But there is nothing you can do about it. If you are adamant about it - don't fill it out. Or sue in Federal court. Good luck with that!
--
My BLOG .. .. Internet News .. .. My Web Page
cag9228

join:2004-04-07
Richardson, TX
I think you ought to try to start up your own broadband company and negotiate routing your traffic to the companies that run the backbones. Of course, you'd have to create your own equipment because you wouldn't want to use equipment from that loathsome Cisco company.

Perhaps we should re-write the Declaration of Independence to include the words "life, liberty, broadband access, and the pursuit of happiness"

Diatribe aside, I feel your pain. I understand how most, if not all, of the companies provide a service that is deemed too expensive or too restrictive. I've had my own little fights with Comcast and AT&T. I'd love to have more choices, but I *CHOSE* to live where I do for my job. The reality of the situation is that if broadband really matters that much to you, you can relocate yourself to one of those modern day utopias where you get 100MB down.

pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD

Wrong

And again... the coverage information is available for all to see.

quote:
FIOS lookup by address: »www22.verizon.com/fiosforhome/ch···ntry.asp

Verizon DSL lookup by address: »www22.verizon.com/content/consum···ress.htm

AT&T DSL lookup by address:
»swot.sbc.com/swot/canIOrderOnlin···ocessDSL

QWest DSL lookup by address:
»www.qwest.com/residential/intern···ual.html

I decided to bother with looking up the links for Cable ISPs as well as some people had griped that I had missed that. I regret the omission.

Cox - »secure.cox.com/service/offers/av···ces.aspx

Comcast - (FINALLY) »www.comcast.com/Localization/Loc···x&area=6

Time Warner's websites are state specific.

If data is that important, someone who cares should buy a database of addresses in the USA, write a script to plug them into these sites, and make their own map.
--
Blagojevich / Madoff 2012!

See 9 replies to this post

BillRoland
Premium
join:2001-01-21
Ocala, FL
kudos:2
Reviews:
·Cox HSI

Its a National Emergency!

Dear God, I had no idea that we had no idea where broadband was available! This is a national catastrophe, a national emergency, a matter of national security! Nah, not really. This place cracks me up sometimes.
--
"Don't steal. The government hates competition."

Titus Pullo
I came, I saw, I slept

join:2004-06-26
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Embarq Now Centu..

Survey Says

collusion city between like carriers.

That's the first thing any accurate mapping of BB will reveal. It's like Tom Delay re-districting in Texas: people living next to each other and across the street, etc, are in separate voting districts unless enough move and people who vote differently move in by the time the next data mining takes place. It's so corrupt it'd drop a maggot at 50 yds.
--

Smile__
Premium
join:2008-10-10
New Freedom, PA

"Let's be Clear" is Clear's tag line..

You pay them to use that Karl?
goinglike60

join:2009-02-10

Connected Nation is Spawn of Connect Kentucky

Connect Kentucky has taken their sham on the road and convinced other states to use them to compile their data.

Connect Kentucky uses this guidance from the FCC: If ANY single household in a Zip Code has access to DSL, then the whole Zip Code is considered to have DSL.

Connect Kentucky is backed by telecos, cablecos, and networkers. Connect Kentucky is a sham that is capitalizing on the flow of money to generate "feel-good" data for states.
eg: Kentucky's access to broadband internet has increased from 70% to 85% in the past four years. (a paraphrase) Using the above guidance from the FCC, such rhetoric is meaningless, but the pols love it, and the uneducated public eats it up.

Connect Kentucky / Connected Nation is NOT the entity that needs to lead in this matter.

Mr Fel
Flynn Lives
Premium
join:2008-03-17
Louisville, KY
Reviews:
·AT&T DSL Service

Re: Connected Nation is Spawn of Connect Kentucky

Completely agreed, Connected Kentucky has only helped a few counties out of a bit over a hundred counties here, and that was getting more companies to sell out satellite instead of dial-up.

I've been hitting my head against the wall ever since they come to "help." They've done nothing to break up the duopoly (AT&T's DSL & Insight's DOCSIS 2.0) here in Louisville and all my relatives down in the country get the choices of dial-up, and let's see, more dial-up. Fun times.

XYZ123

@rr.com

Upstate NY

It's easy in my town. Zero cable customers. Zero DSL customers.

Yet the FCC says there are 9 suppliers.

h7

@charter.com

Broadband vs. the Public

The biggest reason broadband (as well as all common carriers) don't want their books open is not because of the competition, but because they don't want joe public to know that they are getting screwed. Part of which being mr. joe not getting exactly what he is paying for, and secondly, I guarantee he's going to be pissed when he finds out how all of his private data has been constantly bought and sold and comprimised without his permission. :P So anyway, that is the real reason, not the bs the carriers have been spouting since day one.

h#7

DJMASACRE

join:2008-05-27
Nepean, ON

Re: Broadband vs. the Public

said by h7 :

The biggest reason broadband (as well as all common carriers) don't want their books open is not because of the competition, but because they don't want joe public to know that they are getting screwed. Part of which being mr. joe not getting exactly what he is paying for, and secondly, I guarantee he's going to be pissed when he finds out how all of his private data has been constantly bought and sold and comprimised without his permission. :P So anyway, that is the real reason, not the bs the carriers have been spouting since day one.

h#7
and thats the sad thing that is happening in Canada too .

Nobody cares enough about their interweb yet until facebook is down, then it will be too late =P
AVonGauss
Premium
join:2007-11-01
Boynton Beach, FL

350 Million

350 MILLION to map broadband coverage - seriously? I'll tell you what, I'll do it for 175 million, okay?

I don't want to rant as no one reading this article is probably responsible for deciding 350 million dollars is necessary to create a national broadband map, but I REALLY think we could use a bit more common sense to solve this task and save a few million in the process.

Idjk

@embarqhsd.net

Re: 350 Million

What a waste of money- I don't give a damn who does and does not have broadband and don't know why the govt would care either.
If a company can make a buck by giving you the option of buying broadband from them, then they will be knocking at your door- govt needs to get the hell out!

morbo
Complete Your Transaction

join:2002-01-22
00000

well said

Well said. It would be nice to know the current map of broadband deployment of the U.S., considering we're so far behind on speeds. Incumbents know that this report would be the beginning of the end of their cash cow.

i1me2ao
Premium
join:2001-03-03
TEXAS

how

and the hell would you not know what the hell you market is?
Gogo1

join:2004-05-27
Brooklyn, NY

Regulation does not bring competition and low prices

Karl,

You contradict yourself. You talk about the need for competition (ie the free market) to bring about low prices, then you imply more regulation is needed.

Regulation increases costs, barriers to entry, and stifles competition. It allows for corruption/lobbying to influence those regulations. (This is 99% or US politics these days.) All increase prices and allow those larger companies that remain to corner and rape the consumer.

If, in a low regulated market, there are coverage gaps, it means there are areas that are *simply not profitable* to serve. No amount hand wringing will change that. (If you owned a company, would you carry out activity that made you a loss? Why should anyone do that in a supposedly free country and market?)

In the event of coverage gaps, the country as a whole needs to decide if they want to socialize broadband. Its either that, or people should simply accept they live in an area where it is prohibitively expensive to deploy broadband. Then they can excise free will in deciding whether to move or not.

IMO it is morally wrong to, for example, force people in urban areas to pay the broadband bills of people that live in sparsely populated areas. They get none of the benefit of the clean air and open countryside, yet have to pay the costs of living there. But if thats what the majority of the population wants happening...

Just out of interest, do you also believe in the free market and competitive prices in the labor market too, or do you think labor should "unite" to keep wages artificially high? If the latter, why shouldnt companies be able to keep the price of services like broadband high too?

Karl Bode
News Guy
join:2000-03-02
kudos:33
Host:
Time Warner Intern..
PC gaming GAMES
PC gaming Tech

4 edits

Re: Regulation does not bring competition and low prices

Regulation increases costs, barriers to entry, and stifles competition.
At least according to those who don't like regulation. Some regulation, if done correctly (I know that's all too rare these days) can act to create competition.
It allows for corruption/lobbying to influence those regulations.
That's the fault of corruption & lobbying, not regulation.
If, in a low regulated market, there are coverage gaps, it means there are areas that are *simply not profitable* to serve.
Technically, it could also mean those areas are not profitable enough to serve according to investors, or there's no competition there driving a carrier to upgrade. Those areas might be profitable, just not to the degree that satiates the investment community. That might be nit-picking, but it's pertinent, because consumers and executives are looking at this problem from completely opposite ends of the spectrum.

Which brings us to the fact, once again, that this is not a free market, it's a government-subsidized and propped up duopoly, where the largest carriers receive preferential treatment, and have laws crafted specifically for them that give them market advantages. The whole psuedo-free market proselytizing shtick creates arguments that are like houses built on sand...

Companies don't get to take billions in subsidies and tax reductions, lobby for rules that give the largest corporations an unfair market advantage, and then complain about how the slightest regulatory effort to correct these imbalances violate free market principles. It's nonsense.

Yodaa

@comcast.net

You Take Public Money - You Get Public

We are giving billions to carriers to build networks and they don't want to tell us where they're built?

Just require disclosure or no money - why is this so hard?

NTIA builds a big web site and the carriers are required to post all network data, past, present, and future on the site or they don't get any money. (For alot less than $350 billion)

yolarry

join:2007-12-29
Creston, WV

Heh

I dont see this going anywhere but FIOS and Cable. Leave out the dial up people with slow ass internet.

Sunday, 19-May 04:43:21 Terms of Use & Privacy | feedback | contact | Hosting by nac.net - DSL,Hosting & Co-lo
over 13.5 years online © 1999-2013 dslreports.com.