  pnh102 Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty Premium join:2002-05-02 Mount Airy, MD
·Comcast
| More Proof Government Broadband is Bad So how do the taxpayers of Manassas feel about their valuable money being wasted on something that clearly isn't vital to the city to function.
I wonder if the same council threatened to cut funding for schools, police, firefighters and the usual suspects that come up when government want to raise taxes. -- Blagojevich / Madoff 2012! | |
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 |   sortofaTroll
@comcast.net
| Re: More Proof Government Broadband is Bad said by pnh102 :So how do the taxpayers of Manassas feel about their valuable money being wasted on something that clearly isn't vital to the city to function. What's the alternative? A big fugly UHearse cabinet on every corner? | |
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 |  |   pnh102 Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty Premium join:2002-05-02 Mount Airy, MD
·Comcast
| Re: More Proof Government Broadband is Bad said by sortofaTroll :
What's the alternative? A big fugly UHearse cabinet on every corner? People in Manassas can get broadband from Comcast or Verizon (DSL or FIOS).
Both of these options were put in place with no taxpayer money involved.
There is no need for any form of government-provided broadband in Manassas. -- Blagojevich / Madoff 2012! | |
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 |  |  |  decifal
join:2007-03-10 Bon Aqua, TN
| Re: More Proof Government Broadband is Bad said by pnh102 :said by sortofaTroll :
What's the alternative? A big fugly UHearse cabinet on every corner? People in Manassas can get broadband from Comcast or Verizon (DSL or FIOS). Both of these options were put in place with no taxpayer money involved. There is no need for any form of government-provided broadband in Manassas. Right.. Comcast and verizon and ATT alike only want the more populated areas.. What about people in less dense subdivisions? You going to suggest they move to get broadband? That reasoning alone shows ignorance and laziness amongst providers.. For company's that have had tax money handed to them already (( not stimulas money )) they have done a piss poor job coming up with faster and affordable networks for everyone..
Satellite internet is an excuse.. Not a solution | |
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 |  |  |  |   pnh102 Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty Premium join:2002-05-02 Mount Airy, MD
·Comcast
| Re: More Proof Government Broadband is Bad said by decifal :You going to suggest they move to get broadband? Yes. -- Blagojevich / Madoff 2012! | |
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 |  |  |  |  |  decifal
join:2007-03-10 Bon Aqua, TN
| Re: More Proof Government Broadband is Bad said by pnh102 :said by decifal :You going to suggest they move to get broadband? Yes. Alright fine.. Clean out your guest room.. We all will move in to your place! When that is full, we'll get tents and move into the yard. Maybe we can build a structure over your house to help support all the extra people moving to the city from your answer.. Then when food prices sky rocket from farmers moving just to get utilities, and you start complaining.. Our answer will be move to the sticks and grow a carrot.
God seriously.. If you believe that's the answer, then you fail at innovation.. Sorry.. Hate it for ya. | |
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 |  |  |  |  |  |   pnh102 Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty Premium join:2002-05-02 Mount Airy, MD
·Comcast
| Re: More Proof Government Broadband is Bad said by decifal :We all will move in to your place! When that is full, we'll get tents and move into the yard. The extra rental income would be nice.
said by decifal :God seriously.. If you believe that's the answer, then you fail at innovation.. Sorry.. Hate it for ya. Whose fault is it if you don't check to see if broadband is available before you move? Every place to live has its advantages and disadvantages. It isn't Verizon's fault or Comcast's fault if someone chooses to live out in the middle of nowhere. -- Blagojevich / Madoff 2012! | |
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 |  |  |  |  |  |  |  decifal
join:2007-03-10 Bon Aqua, TN
| Re: More Proof Government Broadband is Bad Hello. I have lived in this area all my life.. Services were created and built out sense i've been living here.. Even though there are many people here wishing to have BB service from our local providers, they do not yet provide it.. There are quite a few of us.. Not just some farmer and his cow/goat/whatever he has..
Broadband not a utility? Heh, I think its more so than people realise... If you forget what its like to not have it.. Try dialup for a week.. I bet you won't last.. Just checking my bank account takes 5 minutes... God help me if I want to shop on the internet, watch a video, download software etc.... I love to play fps games, but latency just kills it.. | |
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 |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |   pnh102 Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty Premium join:2002-05-02 Mount Airy, MD
·Comcast
| Re: More Proof Government Broadband is Bad said by decifal :Broadband not a utility? Nope.
Not in the least.
We have billions of people on this planet who get by just fine without broadband. We have millions of people in this country who live just fine without broadband. No one will die if they lack broadband. -- Blagojevich / Madoff 2012! | |
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 |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  MrHappy316 Wish I had my tank Premium join:2003-01-02 Summerville, SC
·AT&T DSL Service
| Re: More Proof Government Broadband is Bad I'll have to agree with some of this assessment, where I currently live was based on lots of research on the availability of broadband. Had it not been available from multiple carriers I would not of moved where I currently live.
I will agree on some of those forced to live in the boonies due to employment or some other factor, they should have multiple choices for broadband just like those of us living in cities. I'm about to be forced to live in the boonies and it looks like a monopoly on broadband services where I'm at (- satellite of course).
But unlike some other folks I was deployed to Afghanistan for a year and relied on satellite broadband to provide internet. Might not be able to play games but at least lets you keep in touch with folks and hop on the internet for other than latency applications without dial up speeds. | |
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 |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  axus
join:2001-06-18 Washington, DC | I expect they said the same thing about telephone when it came out. | |
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 |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  patcat88
join:2002-04-05 Jamaica, NY
| said by pnh102 :said by decifal :Broadband not a utility? Nope. Not in the least. We have billions of people on this planet who get by just fine without broadband. We have millions of people in this country who live just fine without broadband. No one will die if they lack broadband. Billions of people get by without running water, why don't you join them? | |
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 |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |   pnh102 Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty Premium join:2002-05-02 Mount Airy, MD
·Comcast
| Re: More Proof Government Broadband is Bad said by patcat88 :Billions of people get by without running water, why don't you join them? And?
Broadband still is not a utility. -- Blagojevich / Madoff 2012! | |
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 |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |   HotRodFoto Premium join:2003-04-19 Denver, CO
| Re: More Proof Government Broadband is Bad said by pnh102 :said by patcat88 :Billions of people get by without running water, why don't you join them? And? Broadband still is not a utility. As I said, in many countries it already IS a utility. The more we move forward, the sooner it becomes one here in America. -- Capturing the images of Colorado »jdebordphoto.com | |
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 |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |   pnh102 Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty Premium join:2002-05-02 Mount Airy, MD
·Comcast
| Re: More Proof Government Broadband is Bad said by HotRodFoto :As I said, in many countries it already IS a utility. The more we move forward, the sooner it becomes one here in America. Other countries simply have higher broadband penetration than we do. That doesn't make it a utility.
And still no one has shown that people need broadband in order to survive, as one can make the case for things like water, power, gas, sewer, garbage pickup, etc. -- Blagojevich / Madoff 2012! | |
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 |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |   HotRodFoto Premium join:2003-04-19 Denver, CO
| Re: More Proof Government Broadband is Bad Sewer? lol you don't need sewer to survive, same with garbage pickup. Just because the American Gov't doesn't think it's not a utility, doesn't mean it isn't, and also this has nada to do with penetration either, case in point--NZ. -- Capturing the images of Colorado »jdebordphoto.com | |
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 |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |   pnh102 Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty Premium join:2002-05-02 Mount Airy, MD
·Comcast
| Re: More Proof Government Broadband is Bad said by HotRodFoto :Sewer? lol you don't need sewer to survive, same with garbage pickup. LOL.
Please go read up on how and why cholera and dysentery epidemics occur. -- Blagojevich / Madoff 2012! | |
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 |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |   HotRodFoto Premium join:2003-04-19 Denver, CO
| Re: More Proof Government Broadband is Bad said by pnh102 :said by HotRodFoto :Sewer? lol you don't need sewer to survive, same with garbage pickup. LOL. Please go read up on how and why cholera and dysentery epidemics occur. Touche, go read up on how Ambulances are routed to calls  | |
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 |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |   sapo The Internet is Down Premium join:2002-09-16 Sacramento, CA
| Water is a utility... hygiene, hydration, and necessary for to maintain any other organisms such as plants.
Broadband on the other hand... watching videos, checking your bank account, and FPS games hardly compare.
It is a point that has been established a long time ago. | |
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 |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |   Eat Me
join:2002-09-25 Sussex, NJ | Re: More Proof Government Broadband is Bad Telephone service on the other hand... yapping away with friends and relatives. Why do rural folks need telephones anyway? They can use smoke signals or the CB radio.  | |
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 |  |  |  |  |  |   sapo The Internet is Down Premium join:2002-09-16 Sacramento, CA | You just called Broadband a Utility. It is not quite there yet. | |
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 |  |  |  |  |  |  |   HotRodFoto Premium join:2003-04-19 Denver, CO
| Re: More Proof Government Broadband is Bad said by sapo :You just called Broadband a Utility. It is not quite there yet. It is there, America is just blind to it and how the rest of the world classifies things. | |
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 |  |  |  |  moonpuppy
join:2000-08-21 Glen Burnie, MD
·Verizon Online DSL
| said by decifal :Right.. Comcast and verizon and ATT alike only want the more populated areas.. What about people in less dense subdivisions? You going to suggest they move to get broadband? That reasoning alone shows ignorance and laziness amongst providers.. For company's that have had tax money handed to them already (( not stimulas money )) they have done a piss poor job coming up with faster and affordable networks for everyone.. Satellite internet is an excuse.. Not a solution BPL was never meant for less dense areas. It have severe limitations on distance and infrastructure that have not been worked out in the many years it has been tried out. | |
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 |  |  |  |  Sammer
join:2005-12-22 Canonsburg, PA
| said by decifal :Satellite internet is an excuse.. Not a solution BPL is also just an excuse. | |
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 |  |  |   rawgerz In Debt we trust Premium join:2004-10-03 Grove City, PA | I was told that Verizon used tax dollars to fund fios work in Philly. | |
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 |  |   Eat Me
join:2002-09-25 Sussex, NJ | Between BPL and U-Verse, I don't know which is worse.
How about coax or fiber on poles or underground, like cable or FiOS? | |
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 |   HotRodFoto Premium join:2003-04-19 Denver, CO
| said by pnh102 :So how do the taxpayers of Manassas feel about their valuable money being wasted on something that clearly isn't vital to the city to function. I wonder if the same council threatened to cut funding for schools, police, firefighters and the usual suspects that come up when government want to raise taxes. I would much rather have this than the crap companies like TW dish it's customers. Choice IS Freedom! Competition rules! | |
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 |  |   pnh102 Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty Premium join:2002-05-02 Mount Airy, MD
·Comcast
| Re: More Proof Government Broadband is Bad said by HotRodFoto :I would much rather have this than the crap companies like TW dish it's customers. Choice IS Freedom! Competition rules! An unprofitable entity financed by taxes is freedom? -- Blagojevich / Madoff 2012! | |
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 |  |  |   HotRodFoto Premium join:2003-04-19 Denver, CO
| Re: More Proof Government Broadband is Bad said by pnh102 :said by HotRodFoto :I would much rather have this than the crap companies like TW dish it's customers. Choice IS Freedom! Competition rules! An unprofitable entity financed by taxes is freedom? Let me ask you this, is competition not good? Is consumers having a choice not good? Otherwise you get in to a situation of a monopoly, and we all know how that goes, price fixing, stagnant innovation, and basically a screw the customer attitude.
I think you should be more worried about why your hospital is charging you $20 an Aspirin than a build out of a public internet. | |
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 |  |  |  |   pnh102 Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty Premium join:2002-05-02 Mount Airy, MD
·Comcast
| Re: More Proof Government Broadband is Bad said by HotRodFoto :Let me ask you this, is competition not good? Is consumers having a choice not good? Of course all these things are good. But when it comes to paying taxes, unless you work for the Obama administration you have no choice in the matter. With taxpayer financed broadband, there is no choice, you must pay whether you like it or not.
In this day and age many state and local governments are claiming to be short on money. I am guessing that Manassas, VA is no different. If this is the case, then there are far more important things that this tax money can be used for other than worthless BPL, especially when the area has abundant options for "real" broadband.
said by HotRodFoto :Otherwise you get in to a situation of a monopoly, and we all know how that goes, price fixing, stagnant innovation, and basically a screw the customer attitude. True, but at least with most private monopolies, no one is holding a gun to my head forcing me to pay for something I do not want, either. If Comcast was my only broadband option and they stunk, at least I would be free to cancel and not pay them money.
With this BPL, it clearly stinks, and the taxpayers still have no choice but to pay for it.
said by HotRodFoto :I think you should be more worried about why your hospital is charging you $20 an Aspirin than a build out of a public internet. I worry because if it was my town I would not want to pay for the latter. My taxes are high enough. -- Blagojevich / Madoff 2012! | |
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 |  |  |  |  |   HotRodFoto Premium join:2003-04-19 Denver, CO
| Re: More Proof Government Broadband is Bad And what IF your taxes paid for a network that worked and actually was cheaper than what you currently pay for Comcast? BPL stinks you say? Really? Then why is it so popular in Europe? »www.devolo.de/de_DE_cs/spezial/d···al1.html where utility companies offer it at prices often cheaper than what they pay for dsl and faster speeds as well?
I would have NO issue paying higher taxes if the speed and service was better and cheaper, not by any stretch. Either way, it all costs dough, in the end, the best experience and best service is what I want. -- Capturing the images of Colorado »jdebordphoto.com | |
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 |  |  |  |  |  |  See 13 replies to this post |
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  Mactron el camino Real Premium join:2001-12-16 CM94sv
1 edit | campaign to turn back the clock on broadband in the US Manassas City Council |
Haw, BPL is more like turning back advancement in Real Broadband technology.  | |
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 |   C0deZer0 Oc'D To Rhythm And Police Premium join:2001-10-03 Davenport, FL | Re: campaign to turn back the clock on broadband in the US Try again; it's not decaying enough.  | |
|
 |   wifi4milez Big Russ, 1918 to 2008. Rest in Peace
join:2004-08-07 New York, NY | That looks like they took the image from the guy in Office Space hitting the printer, and superimposed it over a horse pic......
I actually would say I am close to 90% positive thats what it is! | |
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  DrStrange Technically feasible Premium join:2001-07-23 West Hartford, CT | It's down! Start kicking! Time to drive a wooden stake through BPLs undead heart once and for all. Remember to behead it and bury the head and the body separately. | |
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 |  openbox9
join:2004-01-26 Alexandria, VA
·AT&T Southeast
| Re: Just LET IT DIE..... Most electrical companies are interested in smart grid technology and really don't seem that interested in being an ISP. There isn't much motivation for them to hang fiber. Heavily invested is a relative term. Have electrical companies really invested that much? Or have companies like Comtek spent the money attempting to get electrical companies to provide service, then dumping the systems on the taxpayers?
Are you suggesting that WiFi is a suitable option for next gen broadband? I equate WiFi to BPL prospects...it's a gap filler. | |
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 |  |
 |  |   KA3SGM - -... ...- - Premium join:2006-01-17 West Chester, PA clubs:
·Cricket Broadband
·Verizon FIOS
| Re: BPL and Current(Cincinnati) implementation BPL has NEVER been Part 15 compliant.
They routinely emit excessive signal levels on almost all Ham bands, and across may of the Public Safety BANDS AS WELL.
HAM radio is a licensed service under CFR part 97 Rules, and BPL emits excessive signal levels, on an Unlicensed Part 15 basis, on Part 97 Regulated frequencies.
They are breaking the law(US CFR:Part97), as written, and should thus be forced to forfeit fines, and penalties to the FCC for their infractions.
As well as Imprisonment for the intentional jamming of operators, licensed under Part 97.
BPL:
Pay UP, and GET OUT.
Go To Jail, You GD Criminals. -- ROCK TIL' SUNSET | |
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 |  |  |   rf_engineer
join:2003-08-04 USA
1 edit | said by KA3SGM :BPL has NEVER been Part 15 compliant. That's not true. There were several systems that exceeded Part 15 emissions limits, but not all did and a properly installed system should be Part 15 emissions level compliant.
But I should add that Part 15 emissions limit compliance does not prevent interference to licensed services. A system can be operating well below the emissions limit level and cause interference, in which case the "harmful interference" clause takes over and the system needs to reduce emissions further or cease operation.
Let's not muddy the water with misinformation. | |
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 jay_rm
join:2002-04-12 Netville
·Fox Valley Internet
·ViaTalk
| Where's Amigo Boy ?!?! Paging Amigo Boy - here's another chance to bust amateur radio chops and pump your favorite mode of 'broadband' !  -- 3500/512 5.7 GHz Motorola Canopy Wireless; FoxValley.net 'It looks just like a Telefunken U47 !' | |
|
  Simba7
join:2003-03-24 Billings, MT
| If you're a HAM, avoid Manassas at all costs. ..unless you love interference.
It seems odd. The big companies say BPL doesn't produce interference, yet White Spaces provide a ton of it.
Seems a bit backwards to me. BPL produces a ton of interference and WS doesn't. I still want this proof they say that WS messes with broadcast TV. -- Bresnan 15M/1M|MyWS[P4HT 3.2GHz,2GB RAM,2x1TB HDDs,WinXP]|WifeWS[P4 2.4GHz,1GB RAM,60GB HDD,WinXP]|Router[2xP3@1GHz,640MB RAM,18GB HDD,Allied Telesyn AT-2560FX,Kingston KNE100TX,2xDigital DE504,Compaq NC3131,iPro/1000DP,Blitz BWI715,Gentoo Linux] | |
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 |  |  moonpuppy
join:2000-08-21 Glen Burnie, MD
·Verizon Online DSL
| Re: If you're a HAM, avoid Manassas at all costs. said by pfak :Ham radio is a hobby, there is no real need for it today .. The only reason Ham Radio would be good is in a major emergency, but then people probably wouldn't have power for their ham sets anyway .. Such ignorance.
Maybe we should govern all vehicles so they do not exceed 75MPH since you should never have to exceed that speed.
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 |  |   Simba7
join:2003-03-24 Billings, MT
1 edit | said by pfak :Ham radio is a hobby, there is no real need for it today .. The only reason Ham Radio would be good is in a major emergency, but then people probably wouldn't have power for their ham sets anyway .. What?? I have a few friends that use to talk to the Space Station, not to mention bounce signals off of the moon. I wouldn't be surprised if Ham operators found life on other planets.
Obviously you're not a Ham if you're spouting this nonsense. Who do you think we have to thank for most of the wireless technology today?
Hell, even Hams in the 80s had 56k (or faster) access around the globe using Packet.
I think if you'd go to a few Ham groups in your area that you'd shut your trap rather quickly. It's amazing how much knowledge they have of the entire spectrum and how to utilize it. | |
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 |  |  |   pnh102 Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty Premium join:2002-05-02 Mount Airy, MD | Re: If you're a HAM, avoid Manassas at all costs. Y'all need to whip out the pitchforks, torches and flaming garbage cans. -- Blagojevich / Madoff 2012! | |
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  GAAAAAAAAARa
@shawcable.net | Epic fail at spending Whats next investing every tax dollar earned from the town into hydrogen. Its a fail technology launched by enron to inflate their stock value... | |
|
 neufuse
join:2006-12-06 Indiana, PA | humm they are littearly just deploying BPL out here... we jus got notices LAST WEEK that it will be turned on next month and we can start signing up... | |
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  rf_engineer
join:2003-08-04 USA
| Do The Math quote: City officials have spent the past few months analyzing the system and whether it is a good investment
$77.5K to run the network for three months for 670 residents. That's $38.55 per customer per month... for a service that they're charging around $25 a month. I think you have your answer. | |
|
  TMM
@ameritech.net
| More than just hams! There is far more than just hams operating in the HF band.
There is military covert, and overt, sea, land, and air operations.. International broadcasting. International air traffic control. (airplanes crossing the great oceans.) Ship to shore, And ship to ship operations. (you know, the radios that the people on deadliest catch are talking with.) Standard date and time broadcast. Media and other data telecommunications broadcast. Off shore oil production communications. (between drilling rigs.)
In the upper HF band there still is
. Police and emergency communications. Off shore oil production communications. Pipe line control and other industry related communications.
There is one MAJOR problem that they are ignoring.
The thing that people refer to as skip or propagation
BPL will not only cause interference to the listeners located close to the line. It will increase the noise floor on the HF band across the united states. One BPL stations may not increase the noise floor much a hounded miles away. But when you get a whole fleet of them, then the noise adds together.
And BPL takes advantage of the current method the FCC uses to measure emissions. FCC measurements are based on a point source. As you travel away from the point source, the noise energy drops at the square of distance. With a line source like a power line, the amount of energy emitted at each point along the line is small, but as you gain distance from the line, then the receiver starts to pick up a little bit of signal from all the little parts of the line, which add up to a big signal. So the actual amount of signal radiated is quite large when you look at the system as a whole.
To get at what I am talking about, keep in mind that some of the BPL transmitters are rated at 10s to 100s of watts. All that energy is radiated to the sky through leakage. Just not in one place.
When you are close up, the energy radiated from the line right next to you, dominates the signal. But when you are at a distance, then you still see all the energy from the entire line. So for a person in another state that is getting interference from the BPL. He will get the same signal strength from a 100W BPL transmitter feeding a 50 mile long line, as he will from a 100 watt transmitter feeding a 80 foot long half wave dipole. The former meats part 15 specs. The latter doesnt by a long shot. But they both cause the same amount of interference.
So, BPL is an interference problem with ship to ship and ship to shore, and all other international communications. The only problem is the people being interfered with will have no idea where the interference is coming from. | |
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