 
ninjatutle
join:2006-01-02
San Ramon, CA | Lol Way to go!
I hate it when cities try to limit progress like trying to block Walmart from opening shop, stop McMansions, etc. | |
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ropeguru
Premium
join:2001-01-25
Hollywood, FL
clubs:
| Re: Lol said by ninjatutle  :Way to go! I hate it when cities try to limit progress like trying to block Walmart from opening shop, stop McMansions, etc. Well, I hate it when these large corporations think they are above all the laws in place and ignore them. If you don't like it then do something to get it chenged. Otherwise, until that change occurs, OBEY THE LAW!!!
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Mega DETH
It's All About The Ping
join:2003-08-20
Watertown, WI | Re: Lol No matter what side your on, it's the consumer once again that gets fuked over..
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"Action does not equal Achievement" | |
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| | squid7
Premium
join:2006-09-02 | That is the point...whether or not the cable TV franchise law there applies to AT&T and their IPTV service.
The court will decide. | |
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| | | VariableARK
join:2003-03-17
USA | Re: Lol It all just comes down to the government wanting their slice of the pie. Why can't they government just leave us all alone? | |
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| | | | squid7
Premium
join:2006-09-02 | Re: Lol Because gov't, like any business, exists to grow and they can't grow unless they take. | |
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DaBavarian
Premium
join:2006-02-22
Saginaw, MI | I thought IPTV was an "information service" just like all of the VOIP providers that don't have to pay into all the fees that the traditional copper line phone companies pay into. | |
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| | HyPeRbAnD
join:2006-01-07
Stow, MA
| Re: Lol said by DaBavarian :I thought IPTV was an "information service" just like all of the VOIP providers that don't have to pay into all the fees that the traditional copper line phone companies pay into. I think that is the argument from att, that IPTV is not the same as traditional TV. | |
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ropeguru
Premium
join:2001-01-25
Hollywood, FL
clubs:
| Re: Lol said by HyPeRbAnD :said by DaBavarian :I thought IPTV was an "information service" just like all of the VOIP providers that don't have to pay into all the fees that the traditional copper line phone companies pay into. I think that is the argument from att, that IPTV is not the same as traditional TV. And if it is an information service, there MUST be a ruling before you go potentially breaking the law. Everyone these days only what to look at what is on the surface from these issues, ie. quick roll out of IPTV, and refuse to look deeper and see what other issues may be caused by allowing all of this to happen.
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| | | | squid7
Premium
join:2006-09-02
 ·Cox HSI
edit:
December 21st, @03:55PM
| Re: Lol The burden is on the state to prove AT&T is doing wrong, not AT&T to prove they are doing right. And as for information service, the FCC already ruled that information services aren't "cable". This was a win for the cable companies who wanted their HSI to not be regulated like their CATV products were. | |
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| | | | | TheGhost
Premium
join:2003-01-03
Lake Forest, IL
clubs:
| Re: Lol As long as AT&T doesn't try to shortcut the placement of the boxes in the rights of way. I thought that was a big issue with some communities. In order for at&t to deliver their UVerse they need to upgrade equipment, which includes placing more of the large cabinets. The cities should be able to place demands on at&t in regards to those issues. | |
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Phattieg
join:2001-04-29
Jacksonville, FL
| said by ropeguru :said by HyPeRbAnD :said by DaBavarian :I thought IPTV was an "information service" just like all of the VOIP providers that don't have to pay into all the fees that the traditional copper line phone companies pay into. I think that is the argument from att, that IPTV is not the same as traditional TV. And if it is an information service, there MUST be a ruling before you go potentially breaking the law. Everyone these days only what to look at what is on the surface from these issues, ie. quick roll out of IPTV, and refuse to look deeper and see what other issues may be caused by allowing all of this to happen. : Sorry Sir, your IPTV U-Verse account had to be shut off due to the lawsuit being lost for franchise rights in your area. The good news is we can now offer DSL up to 100Mbps.
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ropeguru
Premium
join:2001-01-25
Hollywood, FL
clubs:
| Re: Lol said by Phattieg :: Sorry Sir, your IPTV U-Verse account had to be shut off due to the lawsuit being lost for franchise rights in your area. The good news is we can now offer DSL up to 100Mbps. Then at that point it would be time for me to go complain to my franchise authority and do something about it. Until then, they need to follow the rules.
I guess you are one of those that drive over the speed limit, because you think the posted speed it too slow, and think the "man" is just out to get you because you were not following the rules.
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FWD#: 223611 | |
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marigolds
Gainfully employed, finally
Premium,MVM
join:2002-05-13
Saint Louis, MO
| said by DaBavarian :I thought IPTV was an "information service" just like all of the VOIP providers that don't have to pay into all the fees that the traditional copper line phone companies pay into. No, IPTV is not an information service.
Here is the heart of the Vonage decision:
``capability for generating, acquiring, storing, transforming, processing, retrieving, utilizing, or making available information via telecommunications.´´ 47 U.S.C. § 153(20). The process of transmitting customer calls over the Internet requires Vonage to ``act on´´ the format and protocol of the information. 47 C.F.R. § 64.702(a).
IPTV as AT&T offers it would not clearly qualify (that would take a court to decide). YouTube would be a much closer example that would qualify.
In the absence of a finding that a service is an information service, it is a telecommunications or video service and the appropriate laws apply.
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KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK | Yeah, just you wait until it's your business they want to destroy, or your house they want to seize land next to and bulldoze and set up 24/7 operations on.
There's a reason cities need zoning laws. | |
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Maxo
Your tax dollars at work.
Premium,VIP
join:2002-11-04
Tallahassee, FL
clubs: | Don't they know? Might makes right. If AT&T pushes their money, influence, and power around then local laws be damned, they will do what they damn well please. | |
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sea93
join:2001-11-01
River Grove, IL
| Re: Don't they know? I thought that some of these franchise agreements(short sighted) these towns have specifically mention cable, and this is how AT&T figures it does not have to comply.
The law is....what the law is.....
I love how people whine and cry when others play by the laws that the whiners wrote and it doesn't work out quite as planned. | |
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GlobalMind
Domino Dude, POWER Systems Guy
Premium
join:2001-10-29
Hollywood, FL
| Re: Don't they know? I would be quite sure though that AT&T is rather happy to "compete" against those who actually have to abide by the franchise agreement system (assuming AT&T doesn't).
If they were all exempt and they had to compete against an unfettered cable build out they might not be so thrilled, and would likely file a suit against the city on that.
Personally I don't really think these agreements have actually done a lot of good over the long haul. There might be pockets of benefit, but overall I think it is negligible.
K.
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marigolds
Gainfully employed, finally
Premium,MVM
join:2002-05-13
Saint Louis, MO
| said by sea93 :I thought that some of these franchise agreements(short sighted) these towns have specifically mention cable, and this is how AT&T figures it does not have to comply. The law is....what the law is..... I love how people whine and cry when others play by the laws that the whiners wrote and it doesn't work out quite as planned. Franchise agreements only regulate the franchisee. They have no affect on other providers.
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| squid7
Premium
join:2006-09-02
·Cox HSI
| said by Maxo :Might makes right. If AT&T pushes their money, influence, and power around then local laws be damned, they will do what they damn well please. No one pushes their money, influence and power around more than gov't. | |
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| | fiberguy
My views are my own.
Premium
join:2005-05-20 | Re: Don't they know? **WE** are the government.. in case you forgot. | |
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| | | squid7
Premium
join:2006-09-02 | Re: Don't they know? No WE aren't. | |
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| | | | fiberguy
My views are my own.
Premium
join:2005-05-20
| Re: Don't they know? Yes WE are.... "We the people, in order to form a ...."
The government is of the people, by the people, for the people...
We represent ourselves.. we elect our voice in the greater body called the government..
Please.. correct me, and all of our documents in this country that make me correct that WE are the government.
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| | | | | squid7
Premium
join:2006-09-02
·Cox HSI
edit:
December 22nd, @11:29PM
| Re: Don't they know? Wrong again. That's "We the People...establish this Constitution"...not government. The perversion of the Constitution that resulted in our current gov't came many years and Amendments to that sacred document later.
Read the document you're quoting. We don't represent ourselves. We are a Representative Republic system of democratic republic with those Representatives looking out for their OWN interests instead of their constituents which would be the "We".
Politicians and their donors are the gov't. Not "We".
I don't remember "We" sending us to Iraq, killing us with an abusive tax code or denying us a-la-carte cable programming. The whores in Congress do that.
We the Senate...
We the House...
We the Special Interests...
That's the gov't thumb we live under. | |
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| | | | | | fiberguy
My views are my own.
Premium
join:2005-05-20
| Re: Don't they know? That's very much a bitter Billy way to represent your side, but you are still wrong. We are a Democratic Republic form of government.
WE the people.. WE the government.. we self govern..
You can spin what you want... you can cloud the situation with all the things wrong with who is in office.. but it still remains that WE THE PEOPLE can remove those who abuse the system.. WE THE PEOPLE don't.
Please, get your facts straight when coming here and stop trolling.
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| | | | | | | squid7
Premium
join:2006-09-02
·Cox HSI
edit:
December 22nd, @08:20AM
| Re: Don't they know? said by Maxo :said by squid7 :I don't remember "We" sending us to Iraq, killing us with an abusive tax code or denying us a-la-carte cable programming. The whores in Congress do that. We reelected the scumbag that did all that. The President doesn't authorize the tax code or authorize war spending or much of anything else. The Executive Branch in all reality has very little power other than the bully pulpit in our system of government when comparing to Congress. The power to make these obtrusive laws and pass these massive spending bills lies with the whores in Congress who are beholden to special interests, not "We the People" as the cable shill would like to believe. The Constitution was written so that would be the case (that Congress would have the power...now that they would be whores LOL). Only after FDR has the Executive branch become as powerful as it is today and compared to the power of Congress the Executive still pales.
I think the Founding Fathers would crap a brick if they saw the mess our inept, corrupt and bloated gov't has become. | |
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Maxo
Your tax dollars at work.
Premium,VIP
join:2002-11-04
Tallahassee, FL
clubs:
 ·Embarq
| Re: Don't they know? I don't think you can take the blame of the war in Iraq and the massive tax cuts for the extremely rich of of Bush. The congress certainly shares a large part of the blame. The congress and the President have been acting as a single entity, more or less, for the last 6 years.
The American people share a large part of the blame too. It's one thing to put someone back in power and have them screw you over. It's another to put him back in for another full term.
(This is all, of course, putting aside arguments about whether or not he actually won the election. No need for a tangent.)
We have all failed the system and ourselves.
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| | | | | | | | | squid7
Premium
join:2006-09-02
·Cox HSI
edit:
December 22nd, @08:58AM
| Re: Don't they know? Oh for sure, Bush policy and Congressional eagerness to make political gain by looking tough after 9-11 (with the force authorization) is what got us into Iraq.
But I would like to take exception with the tax cut comment. The tax cuts were directed to those who paid the taxes. Given the progressive tax system where the bottom 50% of wage earners pay less than 4% of the income tax revenue while the top 1% of wage earners pay more than 33% of the tax revenue (even when their share of wages earned are far less than 33%), it only makes sense that a tax cut will go the people with the highest wages...again because they paid by far the most taxes. As a percentage of taxes paid, the middle class got a larger percentage tax cut that the higher income earners did.
Another thing to note is that "wealth" isn't income and isn't subject to income tax. Point being "rich" people don't pay taxes because they're "rich". For example if a CEO who has a net worth of $5 billion earns $50 million in taxable income, he'll pay the same tax an iron worker with a $100,000 net worth who won $50 million in a lottery. The iron worker certainly isn't rich but would pay the big bucks.
Source: »www.house.gov/jec/publications/1···ares.pdf
As for the teaming up to screw us, yes in the case that Bush didn't seem to see a spending bill he didn't like and the lack of vetoes permitted the excessive spending. Tax revenues as a result of the tax cuts (because of economic growth offsetting the cuts) is actually up, but the Congress spent it ALL plus more. It's like the Treasury gets in an extra buck and Congress spends an extra $2. I read somewhere, don't remember where that the Congress in the first 4 years of the Bush Administration increased the size of gov't more than Clinton did in 8.
As a Republican I'm repulsed by this and in looking at the election see that I'm not the only one. It's Republicans changing their votes that gave the Democrats Congress and if the Republican whores don't start acting Republican for a change they'll hand the Democrats the White House as well. | |
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Maxo
Your tax dollars at work.
Premium,VIP
join:2002-11-04
Tallahassee, FL
clubs:
·Embarq
| Re: Don't they know? Whether the rich deserved the tax cut or not, if you don't like it Bush shares in the blame, but is hardly the only person to blame.
On the other points I don't disagree.
I remember in the last election when all the republicans where saying they needed to stay in office or the Dems would increase government and spending. Pot Kettle? Holy crap.
I've heard many republicans giving the old speech of "I haven't left the party, the party left me." I think you could define Bush and co. as being the opposite of the Libertarians. Fiscally liberal and socially conservative.
There are some Republican candidates that look like promising conservatives that I hope make it on the ballot for the next election, to get the republican party back on track.
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| | | | | | | | | squid7
Premium
join:2006-09-02
·Cox HSI
edit:
December 22nd, @10:55AM
| Re: Don't they know? Some Neo-Cons in Washington I think got the message that they can't ignore their constituency. They may realize that they can't rely on the "left" being a worse choice therefore the Conservatives will have to vote for Neo-Cons.
If the Democrats keep putting up centrist candidates they will continue to win elections...if they return to the left with a candidate like Hilary Clinton (the HilaryCare disaster is still fresh in the minds of many voters) they will lose when the Republicans counter with a popular centrist like McCain. | |
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| | | | | | | | | fiberguy
My views are my own.
Premium
join:2005-05-20
| Dude, seriously.. if you want to talk about government and what's wrong with it.. why not take this to the red or blue room. You are SOO off topic here.
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| | | | | | | | | squid7
Premium
join:2006-09-02
·Cox HSI
edit:
December 22nd, @11:28PM
| Re: Don't they know? There isn't only one kind of democratic republic fiberguy, there are many.
It appears that you are confusing direct democracy and representative democracy.
A "We" are the gov't government would be a direct democracy, where We the People are making all of the decisions.
Our system of democracy is a representative republic. We elect representatives to make those decisions. They are the government supposedly working in our interests and on our behalf but as we see all to often they do neither.
We stopped being the government when we elect people to do that job in our stead.
But since you can't seem to engage in civil discussion without the constant insults and name calling I'm done with you. | |
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| | | | | | | | | fiberguy
My views are my own.
Premium
join:2005-05-20
| Don't bother with him. He can't take something on topic with out dragging it on 2000 tangents.
As soon as he learns what a Democratic Republic is, he will understand what "We the people" means.
Further.. he's just complaining that government has corrupt people in these offices doing the B.S. things they do... that still doesn't change the fact that WE the people are the government.
The minute he understands the difference between a monarchy or a royal rule or those kinds of governments.. maybe he will learn. Until then, he's just a victim of yet another child left behind.
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| | | | | | squid7
Premium
join:2006-09-02
·Cox HSI
edit:
December 22nd, @11:23PM
| What spin? We don't govern ourselves as we are not a direct democracy but a representative republic. The only cases of direct democracy in California would be our initiative system which does not exist in Federal Gov't.
Special interests get money from a noisy minority or from corporate profit.
They purchase a political hack and give them money to buy advertising.
A minority of people believe everything they see on TV and put the hack in office.
The political hack repays whoever gave them the biggest contributions.
Regardless of what side you're on that is how our system of gov't works regardless of how you wished it worked or not. To deny it is to deny reality. | |
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| | boober321
join:2003-07-15
Milwaukee, WI | Get out the tinfoil... Like anything, government has the potential for abuse, but in this case, Milwaukee (my hometown) is looking out their own. I wish the WI would do more like this and hold corporations accountable. | |
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| | | squid7
Premium
join:2006-09-02 | Re: Don't they know? Held accoutable for what? That is what the case is about; whether or not IPTV is the same as CATV (requiring a franchise agreement). | |
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Dagda1175
join:2001-06-17
Goleta, CA | Bet the city leaders were smiling while deployment happened Good to see another city working against what is good for its people. this will just continue to raise costs for everyone. | |
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| fiberguy
My views are my own.
Premium
join:2005-05-20
| Re: Bet the city leaders were smiling while deployment happened Anarchy is good for the people?
So, what you are really saying is that as long as you can save a buck or two and have a fourth choice in video service, it's ok for the corporate machine to simply break the law and find out if it's ok later?
I'm not ok with this logic.
You haven't stated, either, how this will "continue to riase costs for everyone"...
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dslwanter
Cablewanter
Premium
join:2002-12-16
Lowellville, OH |  Like I said before...
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pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
·Comcast
| Milwaukee Clean Your Own Mess Up First »www.themilwaukeechannel.com/educ···ail.html
This city cannot even keep its own tax system up to date nor can it fund its schools correctly. How dare it wastes even more money that it does not have on a frivolous lawsuit.
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See 13 replies to this post |
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Anonuser
join:2003-01-03
Milwaukee, WI
| Att Is running the new fiber everywhere around here. I'l take some pictures down the street from me morrow morning.
I'm all for just letting ATT build this thing out, they've been promising it for a long time, and let us have it!!!
However, I am still dis-pleased that att is only giving 6mbit for internet access. I can have that now with their current DSL!
I want faster internet access, not more TV. Milwaukee's already got Digital Broadcast, with some 20 odd channels, more then enough :P
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| fiberguy
My views are my own.
Premium
join:2005-05-20
| Re: Att Maybe the Comcast system in South Holland should just run porn on their VOD service. Their is a potential dispute over the legality of that franchise agreement, but what the hell.
I think, with your line of thinking, that Comcast should pipe out the porn OnDemand to South Holland and then fight it all out in court.
I mean, the system is there and built.. they've been promising it for a long time.
Is this how you want to set presidence? Just "do it" and then fight it in court? Usually what happens, in this "just do it and submit an invoice" kinda actions is that even if it was wrong, the money was spent so they will compromise on something that wasn't done properly. In the end, there are many people who get a half-ass'd deal.
If they want to run their video service (if you call it that) they have to play by the rules.
Also, another example and it was LONGLY termed anarchy.. Maryor Newsome in San Francisco said the supposed gay marriage ban wasn't legal either so he just allowed them and let the courts deal with it. Was that good either?
How many more examples should I bring up?
The laws are there and when there are questions, the proper thing to do is clarify the laws, not simply do first and challenge later.
In this case, I SURE hope that AT&T looses both on law and presidence and it costs them and their supporters a butt load of money.
AT&T is a HORRIBLE company (even though they are really SBC, the horrid name AT&T they attached to has grown roots) and they really need to be betch-slapped back into reality.
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JamesPC
join:2005-10-12
Orange, CA
| Cities These cities are just trying to get more out of ATT than is required, necessary, or (justifiable). Att knows what the profit mar genes are, so because ATT does not want to loose money wiring NOWHERE, Kansas or any other non profitable build out. Business 101, don't do anything that is not profitable now and/or in the future. These municipalities must understand that for ATT to compete like a "Publicly Traded BUSINESS", it must be profitable. I honestly dont know what the exact answer to this problem is (national Franchise, maybe) but I do know that the city governments should and cant be asking for unreasonable requests. First of all, cities dont have enough money to be fighting corporations like att. Every city (tax payer) that fights the company looses. | |
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| TheGhost
Premium
join:2003-01-03
Lake Forest, IL
clubs: | Re: Cities But the issue is, even though they are a business, they are competing using public property (rights of way), hence there are requirements. | |
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marigolds
Gainfully employed, finally
Premium,MVM
join:2002-05-13
Saint Louis, MO
| said by JamesPC :These cities are just trying to get more out of ATT than is required, necessary, or (justifiable). Att knows what the profit mar genes are, so because ATT does not want to loose money wiring NOWHERE, Kansas or any other non profitable build out. Business 101, don't do anything that is not profitable now and/or in the future. Buildout rules only apply to areas with a density of 20 households passed per fiber mile. It is not like these are unprofitable areas, they are just lower profit areas.
There is a simple solution to AT&T's problems though:
If they don't want to follow franchise rules, then all they have to do is stay out of the public right of ways.
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MrMaster
What If
Premium
join:2000-12-16
Austin, TX
clubs:
·RoadRunner Cable
| Maybe people need to look at areas outside the major cities I can't believe all the people in these threads that are taking AT&T's side.
Plain and simple. AT&T who think they are king shit is not obeying the rules put forth and ignoring them. If we ignore a law we get our asses thrown in jail. Maybe they need to throw the Exec's in jail then!
Right or wrong the rules are there to help protect the city or community against monopolistic tryants. Milwaukee wants a cut of the pie. Let them sue!
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See 10 replies to this post |
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squid7
Premium
join:2006-09-02
·Cox HSI
| Depends on if it pure IPTV or not I'm not totally familiar with how U-Verse works but it's it's really IPTV they shouldn't pay otherwise it opens the door for gov't to regulate and charge for all kinds of crap running over IP. If IPTV is subject to this how long before VOIP or other services are. | <
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Milwaukee Sues AT&T For Ignoring Franchising Process
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