Municipal ReportOligopoly Fisticuffs in North Kansas City ( old news - 11:59AM Friday Dec 10 2004) tags: competition · municipalNorth Kansas City (not to be confused with Kansas City) officials believe broadband is a utility that should be provided to everyone. As such, they're taking casino revenues to build a city-wide fiber network, though Time Warner Cable lawyers may put an end to the project. The idea was to create a fiber ring, which would not only serve businesses, but also provide networked video IP cameras to aid in law enforcement. Costing around $10 million dollars, the project was largely supported because it wasn't pulling from taxpayer funds, instead relying on the city's casino revenue. After the initial connections, the project chief, Bob Jewell, hoped to create Wi-Fi networks accessible by city patrol cars. He even had plans for a city-wide easily accessible database for city building schematics, making it easier for city Fire departments to have a better understanding of building layouts before arrival. Eventually, the city could turn to providing triple play services to city residents, including phone, cable and broadband internet. Such a move would allow the project to finance itself in the future without draining city coffers should casino revenue dry up. But none of that may ever happen. Time Warner Cable this week sued the city, claiming the plan violates state law. According to Missouri law, a municipal entity who plans on providing telecom services to consumers must put the plan to a vote. Who lobbied and doled out campaign contributions to state lawmakers to have that law put in place? SBC. There's a reason Time Warner Cable and SBC love a public vote, and it isn't an affection for Democratic process. As we've seen in Illinois, flush with unlimited funds, incumbents can unleash waves of misleading PR on a community. By painting many projects as tax-gobbling fiscal failures (throw threats of government surveillance in for good measure), it's not difficult to scare off voters and crush competitive threats. Are such votes worthwhile if muni-planners can be outspent by a margin of ninety to one? Isn't that like a presidential campaign featuring a Harvard grad with a network of wealthy friends, versus a middle class retired steel worker? North Kansas City has already spent $600,000 to interconnect city buildings. Time Warner's lawsuit requests the project be halted until it can be put to a vote. City officials, already familiar with incumbent efforts to ban such projects in the state, weren't shocked by the lawsuit. "They're worried," says North Kansas City mayor Gene Bruns to the Kansas City Star. "They should be. It's called free enterprise." "Private interests will do what they can do and we'll do what we feel we're obligated to do," says Bruns. City attorney Tom Barzee says interest in the project has been overwhelmingly positive. "We had CEOs of the biggest businesses in town asking us, pleading with us to do this," he tells the Star. "You know how many negative responses we got? One from Time Warner."The battle in Missouri only emboldens the questions brought up in Philadelphia earlier this month about who is in charge of our political process when it comes to city infrastructure improvements. Related:- Google Versus Time Warner Cable
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- Who Knew? Home-Rolled Fiber Lowers Cable Rates
- TDS Telecom Launches 50 Mbps Fiber
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 jester121 Premium join:2003-08-09 Lake Zurich, IL | Oligopoly fisticuffs? Karl, please put down the thesaurus and step away...  | |
|   EFudd Premium join:2001-09-08 Brownsville, OH
| Heres to hoping.... Hopefully North Kansas will be luckier than the other cities who have tried to build their own infrastructure.
We're rooting for you North Kansas. -- Do you SetiAtHome | As you place limits and controls on me, you place them on yourselves. | |
|  |   tiger72 SexaT duorP Premium join:2001-03-28 Saint Louis, MO clubs: | Re: Heres to hoping.... interestingly enough North Kansas City lies solely in missouri. | |
|   sirsloop Premium join:2004-02-18 New York, NY | let em vote $10 million dollar fiber infrastructure sounds great....let em vote!  | |
|   GlobalMind Domino Dude, POWER Systems Guy Premium join:2001-10-29 Hollywood, FL
| Support? If there is so much support from business to do this, then let them help push the message if/when this goes to a vote.
The muni is unlikely to have enough cash to educate the whole of the electorate, so maybe these business leaders can help out.
K. -- TheGlobalMind.com The agnostic dyslexic insomniac stays up all night wondering if there is a dog. | |
|  RadioDoc 58ef2c0 Premium,ExMod 2000-03 join:2000-05-11
·AT&T Midwest
| Free enterprise? "They should be. It's called free enterprise."
Since when is using tax dollars (yeah, that's what "casino revenues" are no matter what they try to hide them behind) "free enterprise"?
The spin whirls both ways, Karl.
Is anyone tired of this crap yet? People are not sheep when it comes to local elections. They know what they want. They don't want to pay for municipal broadband toys via taxes. End of story. If it was so good then all those North Kansas City business would invest in it privately. They got a positive response because they kited this as "free" of taxes. Bullshit.
SBC and Time Warner are doing what any corporation should do: Protect shareholder value. If these munis can compete on their own, I'm all for them. But raising the "incumbent unlimited funds for smear campaigns" flag every time one fails is pretty lame. They fail because their potential customers don't want to pay for it. -- I'm not the only cowboy in this one-horse metaphor... | |
|  |  Kearnstd Elf Wizard Premium join:2002-01-22 Mullica Hill, NJ
| Re: Free enterprise? Casino taxes are not like normal taxes though, they dont effect you unless you use the casino. it would be like CT using the cigerette tax to setup a fiber network, i dont smoke so id be all for it since well it would cost me nothing to build. -- [65 Arcanist]Filan(High Elf) Zone: Broadband Reports | |
|  |  |  hedyd4u Premium join:2003-12-16 Schenectady, NY
| Re: Free enterprise? said by Kearnstd :Casino taxes are not like normal taxes though, they dont effect you unless you use the casino. it would be like CT using the cigerette tax to setup a fiber network, i dont smoke so id be all for it since well it would cost me nothing to build. So you would vote to raise someone elses taxes. And then they will vote to raise taxes on something they don't pay this is a bad idea. Taxes are involved and when taxes are involved the idea is bad and will always cost more than they tell you. I do not smoke and think it is a bad habit to have, but I will support raising taxes on those who do. I do not gamble and feel that is bad, but again taxing them for your personal gain is and always will be a bad idea. | |
|  |   Minister
join:2002-01-02 Fleeting
| Well one, having a vote where one party is relatively small and the other is a multi-national corporation with unlimited funds and an experienced PR army doesn't strike me as fair process.
I'd also question people actually know what they're voting for half the time (could cite a fairly clear recent example). | |
|  |  claudeo
join:2000-02-23 Redmond, WA
| said by RadioDoc :"They should be. It's called free enterprise." Monopoly is not free enterprise. Sabotaging competition is not free enterprise. Preventing a public or cooperative venture on the grounds that it may compete with the "private sector" is not free enterprise. If the private oligopoly cannot do it better and cheaper, why should it be subsidized by ratepayers?Corporate welfare is not free enterprise. | |
|  |  jsouth Jsouth
join:2000-12-12 Wichita, KS | They would have to pay either way, so I say vote on it and choose whichever is cheaper. | |
|  |  nasadude
join:2001-10-05 Rockville, MD
·Comcast
| hey RadioDoc, the U.S. is ranked 13th in broadband in the world and falling.
that's what the telco brand of "free enterprise" has brought us.
Although I guess it's good that the poor, misunderstood incumbents have concerned citizens like yourself standing up for them as they quietly go about buying decisions from state legislatures to stifle competition.
We're number 13! we're number 13! Go SBC! go Time-Warner! | |
|  |  |  RadioDoc 58ef2c0 Premium,ExMod 2000-03 join:2000-05-11 | Re: Free enterprise? I guess it's all about the race, eh? Screw the cost and who pays it.
Have a nice socialist life. -- I'm not the only cowboy in this one-horse metaphor... | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  RadioDoc 58ef2c0 Premium,ExMod 2000-03 join:2000-05-11
·AT&T Midwest
| Re: Free enterprise? Yeah I'm stoned if that makes you feel better. Sorry I just don't buy into the broadband socialism which is so pervasive here. If it is so great then people & businesses would be lined up to dump their own money in it regardless of what the big bad incumbents do or say. It isn't, they aren't. What is so hard to understand?
Build it and they will come...right. The only people "coming" are the government drones spending all that money. -- I'm not the only cowboy in this one-horse metaphor... | |
|  |  |  |  |  |   Minister
join:2002-01-02 Fleeting | Re: Free enterprise? Not sure where you get "Socialism" from not wanting your government bought off by mega-corps.
That term is bandied about too frequently.
There is a massive difference between advocating broad socialism and what's occurring here. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |   Unregistered user
@cofs.net
| So, if this is socialism, and it's bad, then how about these ideas:
Sell municipal water systems. They compete with potential private ventures, especially the bottled water companies.
Get rid of public transit. It takes business away from taxicabs, and if there's money to be made from running buses and trains, someone will do it.
Eliminate city trash collection. Granted, it's often contracted out to private companies, but cities have no business designating a carrier. Allow individuals to pick their collection company.
Eliminate public schools. Public education is paid for by tax dollars, which is unfair to people without children. If someone has a child, they can pay for their education.
Eliminate public broadcasting. Then, we might have commercial classical radio that can make money. Eliminating public television would make room for at least one more private channel in most areas, not to mention that PBS steals market share from commercial stations.
Sell parks to private entities, such as country clubs. Many people never go to parks, and they cost a lot to maintain. Private companies can do it better that inefficient parks and recreation authorities, and those who actually use them can pay the cost.
Can anyone think of any other things that are too socialistic (What a word!) for our country? | |
|  |  |  |  BBWEST
join:2004-09-05 Port Angeles, WA | Public Funding Public funds all kinds of infrastructure like the road you drive your fat gas sucking SUV down that you wear out twice as fast as I do.
Is that socialism .......... | |
|  |  |   X
join:2003-05-27 Sacramento, CA
| Right on nasadude. I was about to type something in similar fashion, but now there is no need, because you really summarized what i feel But ill expand a bit though: While the regular folk is paying 30+ bucks for broadband - the rich fatasses in control of those "poor, misunderstood" companies get to ride around in their 1+ million yachts and sponsor more brainwashing of the working man. And then... when time passes, you look - and you see US dropping more and more down from the lead. I understand, US has alot of people living in rural communities, but that does NOT justify all the money that huge corporations throw away to buy the politicians in power, and brainwash regular people who dont have enough time on their hands to actually go and look for the truth.
RadioDoc, you have a point, that the spin can go both ways. But the spin in this case can go probably only two ways: The big corporation way, and the small working man way. Which one are you? | |
|  |  |  |  RadioDoc 58ef2c0 Premium,ExMod 2000-03 join:2000-05-11
·AT&T Midwest
| Re: Free enterprise? said by X :Which one are you? I'm a self-employed business-owner and commercial property owner who is tired of paying outlandish taxes for government pie-in-the-sky.
What is wrong with $1 million yachts? If you had one you'd certainly not be posting what you posted.
As for purchased politicians, that's how this country works these days. It may be wrong, but it has nothing to do with how stories like this are reported. -- I'm not the only cowboy in this one-horse metaphor... | |
|  |  |  |  |   justncredible
@rr.com
| Re: Free enterprise? I am the poor working man, and the truth is simple, big goverment taxing business to support bad ideas is why you don't get a big raise every year. Every dollar you see taken out of your paycheck is matched from the company you work for. Lower taxes on business means more money for pay raises, very simple and very true. Your support of this plan just screws you, it does not screw TW or big business. Your propety taxes will go up to pay for this plan, think about that. How do you think they will pay for it? 10 million dollars that is in the general goverment fund, that should be used for roads schools, or any of the already socialist money pits the goverment has forced upon us working people. Every single thing any of the forms of goverment buys comes directly out of your pocket. Every time a goverment sues a business it comes out of the employees pocket and the customers pocket. Look at the price of cigarettes, you could buy a pack for 1 dollar before the goverment sued them, now the customer is being raped, not the business. It is stupid to keep thinking you hurt anyone but yourself. Big goverment = BAD. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |   Minister
join:2002-01-02 Fleeting
2 edits | Re: Free enterprise? A town of 5,000 people is "big government"?
There's something insincere and even ironic about how the two previous posters approve the methods these companies use to screw people and protect revenue....then offer largely unfounded predictions how some small town government - whose only aim really is infrastructure improvement - is going to ruin the planet. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  RadioDoc 58ef2c0 Premium,ExMod 2000-03 join:2000-05-11
·AT&T Midwest
| Re: Free enterprise? Who is "approv[ing] the methods of these companies"? I just want these government pipe dreams to make sense financially so I don't end up stuck paying for revenue shortfalls like we end up stuck paying for everything else local governments get themselves into.
You didn't bother to answer my question, either. Here it is again to save you the trouble: If it is so great then people & businesses would be lined up to dump their own money in it regardless of what the big bad incumbents do or say. It isn't, they aren't. What is so hard to understand? -- I'm not the only cowboy in this one-horse metaphor... | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |   Minister
join:2002-01-02 Fleeting | Re: Free enterprise? You're shocked private industry wouldn't pour money into something that would probably make only enough profit to keep itself functional and serve its purpose?
This is a revelation of some kind? | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |   ppcpunk
join:2001-02-11 Davenport, IA
| Yeah and we all know that in order for something to be a good idea a company needs to pour money into it just like they did when they built the original phone networks. Oh wait... that was paid for with tax payer money... and we all know what a "failure" that was.
You don't seem to understand that the government isn't providing broadband to people - they are providing a network for people to use broadband on, provided by private companies, just like they do with streets and municipal airports and so on. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  RadioDoc 58ef2c0 Premium,ExMod 2000-03 join:2000-05-11
·AT&T Midwest
| Re: Free enterprise? said by ppcpunk :You don't seem to understand that the government isn't providing broadband to people - they are providing a network for people to use broadband on, provided by private companies, just like they do with streets and municipal airports and so on. I understand it just fine. Find another way to pay for it. This ain't 1920 and there are plenty of alternatives already. ALL of the things you listed are tax-based. Many of these munis continue to insist they are not going to burden the local property tax base with their expense overruns. They are liars. It always comes back to the taxpayers. -- I'm not the only cowboy in this one-horse metaphor... | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |   k
@xx.charter
| Re: Free enterprise?  This isn't 1920, but those who fail to remember history are doomed to repeat it. Under your logic, the government of the 1920s and earlier should have given the finger to the working poor and turn a blind eye the massive inequality in the distribution of wealth. Without the progressivists, child labor would still be legal, there would be no minimum wage, etc.
Sure, you can argue that access to information networks isn't the equivalent of having to work 80+ hours a week. But as you said THIS ISN'T 1920. This is 2004, access to information is a critical factor in making sure that America has a future. I'm tired of people who piss away the future just so the present can be a little bit rosier for themselves. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |   ppcpunk
join:2001-02-11 Davenport, IA
| They take out bonds and repay them over 20 years with interest usually. What's wrong with that? They should only be done when a feasibility study - or a few of them - shows that they will work. You act as if municipal fiber can't work - you say they are liars it always comes back to the taxpayers - Well so far as I can tell not every municipal network has failed in fact I think very few have and only when the studies shows they never should have done it in the first place. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |   justncredible
@rr.com
| Re: Free enterprise? Show where they have been successful and competitive, show where they can pay for themselves. Not one place has been a success. I pay less than half of what "click" customers pay for the same speeds, and it is paid for by tax dollars and higher cost to the customers electric bills. That is the plan, provided a very limited service, to a very small amount of people, hire city workers to maintian the network, and give them huge pensions with great benifits, while raping the tax payers, draining the city coffers. It is the dumbest thing I have ever heard of. The business plan has no break even place. Read the study done in canada, it is a money pit no matter how you look at it. A pipe dream full of promises that never happen.
If local goverments want to spur fiber laydowns then they need to give tax breaks and incentives. Free digging permits, maybe use of idle city work crews. A major diffrence in the way SBC/verizon cut deals with major manufactuers gives them a cost advantage over a small upstart. They are buying thousands of miles of fiber and get price breaks, they work out deals to buy from one company. I fully expect cable companys to anounce fiber rollouts next sometime in 2005, customers will win from private competition, not goverment programs. The goverment is bad, you might be willing to let them control your internet, but I am not, they abuse every power we the people have given them. There is no reason to give them more control and power.
As for the bonds,,,, that interest is tax dollars, I will always vote no for any bond issues. Only a fool would vote yes to paying more taxes. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |   ppcpunk
join:2001-02-11 Davenport, IA
| Re: Free enterprise? Well congratulations - you live in an area where broadband is somewhat competitive and you have a better deal than the people who use the click network but I think the whole reason they built this network was because they weren't getting the service they wanted. I'd say that in itself is a success. Check comcasts rates in that area - they are lower compared to the rest of the country something like 17% lower on average. Sounds successful to me. You talk about this higher electricity bill stuff - to that I say read this »www.tricitybroadband.com/failures.htm
Kind of puts that to rest. You talk about "limited service" well what kind of service were they getting before? I'd say that's a limited service if they had to go out and build their own fiber network. Then you talk about some study in Canada that I searched this site for and can't find but it doesn't matter because I don't know if you are up on your geography because Canada is not America and that alone is a world of difference so comparing the two simply because they are both municipal networks is the dumbest thing I have heard of today.
Telco's and Cable co's do not want to lay fiber unless they have to and only if they are the only ones who get to use it - well then we are stuck with a bunch of half assed wired towns - well whoever actually gets wired if most anyone even does - with companies constantly tearing up roads to lay one strand of fiber to your house all over town to everyone's house. What kind of stupid idea is that?? We don't have nine air ports - we don't have seven garbage collectors we don't have four water systems and six gas companies - Some things just don't make sense to do like that.
Also - The government won't be controlling the internet part - I don't know where you people get this silly idea from? Private companies such as Earthlink/AOL/Comcast/Mediacom/ATT provide the internet connection - NOT THE GOVERNMENT - they ONLY provide the fiber to the POP where the company you buy your internet service from connects to.
You do understand that when I say pay back with interest that you get more money back than what was borrowed?
Only a fool would want to continue to feed companies money just because they control the line to your house when they use the public rights of way and all kinds of tax incentives to be able to get your business. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |   justncredible
@rr.com
| Re: Free enterprise? lots of info, since I grew up very close to glasgow ky, I decided to look at them a little, here is a link to the finicail reports.
»www.glasgow-ky.com/EPB/Audit20.htm
buried on page 20 is the real dirt about a successful muni ran internet. It covers 2002 to 2003 years, some very interesting stuff can be learned from this report. It is very clear customer cost went up, they went from 80 LAN support staff to 300, the profits are half what they was in 2002, the operating expense went up over $100.000.00 in one year. The net income from just the service doubled, they got 2X the money in 2003 than in 2002, but the profits went down more than half, and the support crew went up almost 3X what it was in 2002. Sales went down as well, so operating cost went up, support went up, sales went down, good plan to make money.
I really did not look at the others, I know and you should relize it took the former soviet union what 70 years to collaspe, it is clear that this business plan will collapse in about 15 years, the cost of maintence and upkeep is huge, give it time and it will fail. The rates suck as well, lowest my ass, add it up.
»www.glasgow-ky.com/epb/Online.htm#HomeLAN Residential (RS-L)
No speeds are posted so I have no idea what they claim to be the speeds. The people quoted on tricity are very bias, of coruse everything is all rosey that is how they make money. It is clear sales down cost up, I give glasgow 3 years before they sell it off at a huge loss to the taxpayers. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |   justncredible
@rr.com
| Re: Free enterprise? wait it is not even fiber, why is the operating cost so high, it is not fiber. I read some more after I posted and it is just plain coax cable. Ain't even the fiber, still why have the cost went up so high. Something does not look right there. I also note ONLY 7,000 customers. I would love to see a real study running 120 miles of lit fiber serviceing 7,000 customers. This whole discussion is stupid, you would have to be a retard to even think it would break even. OMG last post for this, I choose not to discuss raping my wallet with idiots that can not read. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |   ppcpunk
join:2001-02-11 Davenport, IA | Re: Free enterprise? I respond to your questions and you start talking about something else.
Give it up - you are wrong - you have lost - have a nice day. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  claudeo
join:2000-02-23 Redmond, WA | said by justncredible:
Show where they have been successful and competitive, show where they can pay for themselves. Not one place has been a success. Tacoma, Washington. Eat your heart out. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  carlini7 Premium join:2003-12-19 Dundee, IL
| Re: Free enterprise? WACKONOMICS I love this discussion about companies who have had a monopoly and become in effect a quasi-taxing body, yet no one really sees that as being gouged. RadioDoc you should do a little better research before you spout off on how bad it is for people who are fed up with substandard service trying to get a better infrastructure in place.
When I say quasi-taxing body, look at all the money the phone companies spend to support all these different "social" programs they subsidize. To me, if they have all this extra money - I should be paying less money for my phone service. And maybe I don't agree with who they give money to.
As for having a state-of-the-art infrastructure, if people like you do not wake up to the fact that economic development rides on that infrastructure, we will drop further in the global economy.
If North Kansas City or the TriCities in Illinois (Batavia, St. Charles, and Geneva) could get their projects going, they would shatter the old copper-based business model of the phone companies. That is what these companies fear.
And don't believe for a minute that these companies don't get subsidies and everything else that you despise as "Socialism" is alive and well with "telewelfare". I suggest you get online and read some FCC Reports like "Trends in Telecom Services" before you engage in more dialog.
As for protecting the shareholders and your analogy of the 1920s, this country's total viability is much more important than sustaining the business model and profits of a couple of buggywhip manufacturers. If you don't believe in progress, move to an Amish community and drive a horse. | |
|  |  |  |  |   garagerock Premium join:2002-06-14 Louisville, KY
| quote: I'm a self-employed business-owner and commercial property owner who is tired of paying outlandish taxes for government pie-in-the-sky
Which part of this is too much for anyone to understand? Don't go to the casinos in Missouri, and you won't be taxed for this project. Period. Nobody loses here-except of course the companies who charge too much and deploy too little. The gov't should be applauded for finding a creative way to pay for the project-you should be tickled pink as it doesn't cost in property or other taxes, but rather through casino taxes. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |   Octopussy2 Premium join:2003-03-30 Batavia, IL
| Re: Free enterprise? BRAVO for creative financing!!!
It is like using cigarette tax, alcohol tax....people choose to smoke, drive, etc...
And ya know what? People choose to use cable TV and broadband services. In 95% of the market there is zero CHOICE for cable TV. Wouldn't it be nice to have a choice? And if there WAS competition (I hardly recognize the word when speaking of cable TV) the prices might actually come down!).
Why shouldn't there be choice in this world for our services? And why must there be laws BANNING certain groups from participating in selling services (like municipalities) for broadband, cable TV and telephone? Why must only private providers provide these services? We are so far behind in providing affordable, technologically up-to-date services to the masses. If the muni can provide them why prevent them from doing so? -- It's muni-licious! »www.tricitybroadband.com | |
|  |  |  PDXPLT
join:2003-12-04 Banks, OR
| said by nasadude :hey RadioDoc, the U.S. is ranked 13th in broadband in the world and falling. that's what the telco brand of "free enterprise" has brought us. Although I guess it's good that the poor, misunderstood incumbents have concerned citizens like yourself standing up for them as they quietly go about buying decisions from state legislatures to stifle competition. We're number 13! we're number 13! Go SBC! go Time-Warner! And on our way to number 14 (then 15, 16, etc...).
And this discussion gets right to the cause. Government processes used to act for the good of the public, and develop policies to foster the public good. No more. Now government acts strictly in the benefit of those with the biggest purses, and try to justify it by alluding to questionable economic theories that this will somehow, eventually, lead to some benefit for the public. | |
|  |  BBWEST
join:2004-09-05 Port Angeles, WA | You obviously work for one of the crybaby bells | |
|  |   wozster Premium join:2000-10-21 Lenexa, KS
| RadioDoc, one thing you should understand about North Kansas City is that it's a very small town with a massive amount of excessive cash in the bank due to its "population size/casino tax revenue" ratio.
What do you suggest they do with their extra money?
They already have low property and sales taxes, plus great law enforcement, fire, and other superb community services.
N.K.C., MO is a great example of what happens when a tiny town gets excessive revenue from casino taxes. -- Protect online free speech | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  claudeo
join:2000-02-23 Redmond, WA
| Re: Clarification said by RadioDoc :Before the usual bell-bashing suspects ran off with the discussion, my point is that anything that does not rely on its own resources is not "free enterprise". By that standard, many US megacorps are not "free enterprise", unless by "freely" you mean feeding freely to the trough of corporate welfare. They are "freely" using infrastructure built by taxpayer's money and research paid for by taxpayer's dollars, they are "freely" getting tax breaks and incentives as well as direct investments made on their behalf that small businesses can only dream off. Oops. | |
|  |  |   wozster Premium join:2000-10-21 Lenexa, KS
| Straight from the horses mouth »www.nkc.org/index2.htm?usid=40
Approximate daytime population of 25,000. ***(Notice the word "daytime" in that sentence)
Fire Department has 58 firefighters, 2 stations, free paramedic emergency service for residents
Police Department has 40 full-time officers and two canine units (bomb and drug).
911 Emergency services with a two minute average response time.
Library expansion completed in April 2002, free cards to residents and North Kansas City based employees.
City's total assessed valuation is over $266 million within its total 4.2 square miles of geography.
City has an annual total budget of about $30,000,000.
North Kansas City has 64 acres of fully equipped public parks.
Low municipal taxes, no city corporate or individual earnings taxes, no local use taxes.
Combined city property tax levy per $100 of assessed valuation: $.74 (real estate) $.42 (personal property).
New 98,000 square foot, $20 million Community Health and Activity Center features fitness amenities, indoor aquatics center, meeting facilities, three court gymnasium, rock climbing wall, and much more. -- Protect online free speech | |
|   Sweet Witch Be the flame, not the moth. Premium,MVM join:2003-07-15 Gallifrey
·Comcast
| It would be nice if just once companies would support infrastructure improvements instead of trying to keep everything in the dark ages. Didn't that huge blackout two years ago and the fact that we're pushing the limits on the phone lines, cable lines etc teach anything?? -- I'm a woman by the way . | |
|  |  hottboiinnc ME
join:2003-10-15 Cleveland, OH | Re: It would be nice the black out was due to FE didnt keep up with trees along the power lines. They are now but only by contracting to a few large companies. One is based out of CA called EPA-ProvCO they also do work for PG&E | |
|   Phil BK Premium join:2002-05-18 Miami, FL
| A vote will pretty much assure a win for time warn All Time Warner has to do is put together a few 1984 type big brother spots and no one will vote for this.
"The city can use this network to see everything you do, and then tell the police right away through the same network. Do YOU want the government controlling your access to information?" -Paid for by The Time Warner Fleece the Customer Fund. -- If at first you don't succeed...bug them till you get what you want. | |
|  |   X
join:2003-05-27 Sacramento, CA | Re: A vote will pretty much assure a win for time don't give them any ideas LOL | |
|  markopoleo
join:2003-04-02 Bonne Terre, MO | Makes sense.. Nothing wrong with the idea, and if the city builds it with casino dollars, the companies can PAY THEM to use it. Take that! | |
|  |   justncredible
@rr.com
| Re: Makes sense.. "draining city coffers " yeah that makes sense. Each stae makes it own deals with casinos most I have seen are supposed to use the money for education, NOT invasion of street pole cameras. The 10 million up front is just the start, add on the staff for upkeep and maintencae cost and the monthly bill is huge to provide a VERY limited fiber ring. This idea expands goverments and that is what I don't want, the less goverment the better, the less goverment employees the better. 10 Million dollars could buy alot of new books for the kids, supporting this plan is hurting the children, Karl do you hate the children? Every penny that the state or any goverment gets belongs to the taxpayers, they is NO FREE RIDE! No matter how people try to spin it, it is a bold face lie to say that money does not belong to the people. It is plain to see crooked politicians spending our money on projects that only lead to higher taxes and less projects that benifit the people. This plan is a crime. | |
|  |  |   Octopussy2 Premium join:2003-03-30 Batavia, IL | Re: Makes sense.. And I suppose you work at the Heartland Institute too....You question that Karl hates the children? Whoa.... -- It's muni-licious! »www.tricitybroadband.com | |
|  |  |  BosstonesOwn
join:2002-12-15 Everett, MA clubs:
·Comcast
| said by justncredible:
"draining city coffers " yeah that makes sense. Each stae makes it own deals with casinos most I have seen are supposed to use the money for education, NOT invasion of street pole cameras. The 10 million up front is just the start, add on the staff for upkeep and maintencae cost and the monthly bill is huge to provide a VERY limited fiber ring. This idea expands goverments and that is what I don't want, the less goverment the better, the less goverment employees the better. 10 Million dollars could buy alot of new books for the kids, supporting this plan is hurting the children, Karl do you hate the children? Every penny that the state or any goverment gets belongs to the taxpayers, they is NO FREE RIDE! No matter how people try to spin it, it is a bold face lie to say that money does not belong to the people. It is plain to see crooked politicians spending our money on projects that only lead to higher taxes and less projects that benifit the people. This plan is a crime. Your camera "spy" idea. Tell that to the parents in Florida who's little girl was abducted abused and killed because they couldn't get the tape from the car wash people without the police stepping in.
The camera's are a very good idea in places like school zones, and the like. Big Government my ass. How about public safety. If they have to put up cameras to make sure my kids don't get abducted or killed hell yeah turn em on. -- "It's always funny until someone gets hurt......and then it's absolutely friggin' hysterical!" | |
|   Derch Premium join:2004-10-16 Tulsa, OK | Bad Time Warner! I've said this once, I'll say it many more times, any company that interrupts a fare deal that citizens can benefit from should be punished. But as long as asshat Powell is still with the FCC, such progress will be reversed. | |
|  alchav
join:2002-05-17 Palm Desert, CA
·Pacific Bell - SBC
| Put Everyone on a Level Playing Surface!
Well like I said before, this could work if you change the Last Mile Connection. Network your Communities and Neighborhoods, including the Business Communities, then provide an MPOE (Minimum Point of Entry.) Now the Munies and Private Sector can compete for your dollar. Only this way will everyone be on a level playing field. | |
|  |   Justncredible
@rr.com
| Re: Put Everyone on a Level Playing Surface! how is it level when they use tax dollars to provide a very small amount of people the service? There is no way they will roll FTTH or even do what SBC is doing and roll FTTN. It is a taxpayers scam they will pay a few million for the consulting, to get a price of 10 million. It will end up costing 20+ million to lay. Read the article Karl had done last month about the fiber a muni did in canada, it shows what a money pit it is. Huge waste of money that even in the plans beifits not one single citizen. There has always and will always be groups that want to exert goverment control over every single aspect of a persons life, this plan is just another step in that direction. Anyway you look at it it is a very bad idea, spend tax payers money to charge them for internet service, at the same time track them as they go to the store and give access to city employees on the building layouts. Who trust the city employees? I don't. Wake up and end big goverment plans. | |
|  |  |   k
@xx.charter
| Re: Put Everyone on a Level Playing Surface! OK, let's demolish the interstate, demolish all those dams, let planes fly in the air without FAA safety regulations, and hell fire all those border-crossing guards, because we can't trust them.
City employees are people, just like you and me, sure some will turn out to be rotten apples, but give them the chance and they will do something positive. Your argument about the plan being a huge money hole may be true, but maybe you can't trust city employees because other people wouldn't trust you . | |
|  |  alchav
join:2002-05-17 Palm Desert, CA
·Pacific Bell - SBC
| You guys get hung up on Government verses Free Enterprise, this battle goes back to out Roots. There will always be a fine line between this argument. You are not paying attention to what I am saying. If you pay for your own FTTH and Network, what is left? Just the big pipes to what ever you want to put on your Network. Then if Muni wants to compete in Product and Service, more power to them. I don't think that will happen unless Free Enterprise falls asleep or gives up, and then do we really want them. I feel that this battle in the long run, will make for a better Product and Service. | |
|  jasso
join:2004-11-15 Chico, TX
| Re: Put Everyone on a Level Playing Surface! This shows that the city officials are concerned with providing a service to the people that they are not getting elsewhere. If it goes to a vote, I think that not only will Time Warner try to flood the media with "Big Brother" ads, but also the small businesses in the area may try their own advertising campaigns to show what they believe are the benefits to having such a system. (i.e. faster police, ambulance, and fire response) | |
|  |  See 7 replies to this post | |
  asdfdfdf
@xtraport.net
| Further proof that there is no funding approach... that the rabid free marketers will accept. Even if money is not coerced from the pockets of the citizenry they will never accept any such program. If the market is not providing service they will never accept any such program.
They only trust the government to protect them from terrorists, to send people to fight and die, to decide war and peace, life and death. They could never trust the government with something as precious as money.
...
"My preeecioussss. Nasty little thieveses, stealing the preciousss" | |
|  |  jasso
join:2004-11-15 Chico, TX 1 edit | Re: Further proof that there is no funding approach... I guess that just means we need a real "Lord of the Webrings" if Big Corporate doesn't want to help give the people a better service than they have now. | |
|   mamoon
@fdn.com
| Incumbents & bull If incumbents had already put in place these type systems AND were widely available, the Muni's wouldn't need to have installed any more fibre/broadband systems. But wait! There are already high speed networks around. They are not accessible because they only transport telco traffic. Closed and inaccessible to the public UNLESS you pay and pay and pay and pay and pay and pay. What is needed is to open some of the existing "public utility" owned circuits that are going unused now for cheaper prices. Public utilities are guaranteed a profit. What's the holdup? Money? Doesn't seem to be. Too many government funds are being used by "public utilities" to pay "shareholders" as it is(in the US anyway). | |
|  |  flushls
join:2004-11-02 Joyce, WA | Re: Incumbents & bull Well Posted Thought. | |
|  fiber10
join:2004-12-13 Carthage, MO
| what will happen....
in the smaller communities across the country if the city government does not get involved?
justncredible makes some good arguments, but it seems clear to me that he has made up his mind to be anti-government all the way. Now, I have lived in small communities all my life, and sure the big telcos are there. But there is no way I get the same service that my brother does just outside of Tulsa. And the same providers service us both. At this point for the community to be economically viable they have to develop a broadband plan an put it into action. Again, these communities are stuck with providers that do not want to put in capex that will take more than five years to recover. This means these cities need to build broadband, just like the built streets, water lines, parks and so on. | |
|   NKC_Casino_Worker
@rr.com
| Consider this I live in North Kansas City, and I work at the casino. I know what goes where and why. NKC does not decide how much money the casino gives to them, the state does. It is predetermined by the state what percentage of the revenue goes to state and local government. It just happens that one of these casinos is in a small town within a big city. Because of the casino NKC is one of the best places to live in the city.
Property and home owner taxes are very low. Water and sewer is very cheap. NKC cleans its streets twice a week, has free trash, free recycling, and free dumpster service. Everything else we have to go with the same big companies (KC Power & Light, Time Warner Cable, South Western Bell, and the list continues).
Reading all these comments, it is very clear that people don't know anything about the money that a town gets from the casino. The millions of dollars the casino gives NKC MUST be used for infrastructure and appearance. This is why NKC always has new police cars, new fire trucks, all the services listed above. What is wrong with them wanting to provide one more service for its residence.
Do a demographic study of the residence of this town. It is full of blue collar workers that work very hard for what they have, and can't afford all of the "nice things." Most of the people in this town don't have broadband because they can't afford it. The city providing these as a service is a great thing. | |
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