dslreports logo
 story category
NSA Defunding Amendment Narrowly Defeated

The effort to defund the NSA's ability to collect wholesale metadata was defeated last night in a narrow 205 to 217 House vote, the specific voting record available here for those interested. 83 Democrats, the party that's supposed to be specifically interested in civil rights, voted down the Amendment.

Had it passed, the Amendment would have made sure the government could only collect metadata if an individual was "the subject of an investigation described in section 501 of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act." Even though the effort probably would have been vetoed, it did manage to show a rare amount of bipartisan cooperation on an issue that won't be going away for the government any time soon.

As an on topic aside many of you might be interested in, Forbes has leaked blueprints of the NSA's shiny new surveillance data storage center being built in Bluffdale, Utah.
view:
topics flat nest 

Mike
Mod
join:2000-09-17
Pittsburgh, PA

Mike

Mod

Is anyone really surprised?

By the way... 12 people didn't even vote. Blame them too.

ArrayList
DevOps
Premium Member
join:2005-03-19
Mullica Hill, NJ

ArrayList

Premium Member

Re: Is anyone really surprised?

Maybe they thought that it wasn't worth a vote.

cchhat01
Dr. Zoidberg
join:2001-05-01
Elmhurst, NY

cchhat01

Member

Re: Is anyone really surprised?

More like "I don't wanna be caught with the sinking ship!"
biochemistry
Premium Member
join:2003-05-09
92361

biochemistry

Premium Member

Good news bad news

The bad news is that the amendment failed.

The good news is that we now know who has violated their oath to uphold the Constitution so that we can vote them out. This includes all those who voted down the amendment as well as those worthless members who didn't even bother to vote.

ArrayList
DevOps
Premium Member
join:2005-03-19
Mullica Hill, NJ

ArrayList

Premium Member

Re: Good news bad news

blah blah blah

cchhat01
Dr. Zoidberg
join:2001-05-01
Elmhurst, NY

cchhat01

Member

Re: Good news bad news

lol lol lol

FFH5
Premium Member
join:2002-03-03
Tavistock NJ

FFH5 to biochemistry

Premium Member

to biochemistry
said by biochemistry:

The good news is that we now know who has violated their oath to uphold the Constitution so that we can vote them out.

The voters invariably return to office over 85% of incumbents. In some years even higher. »www.opensecrets.org/bigp ··· lect.php
Your hope for throwing out those you don't like over a single issue are sadly misplaced.
dra6o0n
join:2011-08-15
Mississauga, ON

dra6o0n to biochemistry

Member

to biochemistry
You mean all of them.

atuarre
Here come the drums
Premium Member
join:2004-02-14
EC/SETX SWLA

atuarre

Premium Member

RE

Didn't I say yesterday that this was going to happen and some dude was like "you insult me sir" or some crap like that. They knew about it, and will continue to support such programs.

MPScan
Premium Member
join:2001-08-24
Boston, MA

1 recommendation

MPScan

Premium Member

No Win Situation

There's no way to "win" this argument...

1. NSA does what it's doing now and we all yell "ZOMG! My privacy is being invaded! Government BAD, BAD, BAD!"

2. NSA stops what they're doing and another 9/11 happens and we all yell "Why didn't they do more to protect us??? Government FAILED!"

Me? Personally? Let them monitor me. When it comes down to it, in a country of 350+ million, I am just not that interesting. You wanna look at what I had for lunch, the last time I called my aunt, or what type of porn I look at? Have a blast.

elios
join:2005-11-15
Springfield, MO

1 edit

elios

Member

Re: No Win Situation

all of the stuff we have now didnt stop the bombing in Boston
imo there for its wasted money

let me know when they make an arrest BE FOR some thing gets blown up
right now there batting ZERO
to quote WarGames "The only winning move is not to play"

tshirt
Premium Member
join:2004-07-11
Snohomish, WA

tshirt

Premium Member

Re: No Win Situation

said by elios:

all of the stuff we have now didnt stop the bombing in Boston
imo there for its wasted money

Let' see , 2 brothers who probably mostly spoke only in person, so little to no cell phone or online trace for the NSA and even if they knew they might not choose to reveal how they knew over what was a relatively minor attack, remember this was "pre- snowden". better to save the asset to stop large scale bombings, or chemical/biological/radiological attacks that could effect large numbers of people.
This isn't a "traffic-cam".
said by elios:

let me know when they make an arrest BE FOR some thing gets blown up
right now there batting ZERO

They could tell you, but then they'd have to kill you.
said by elios:

to quote WarGames "The only winning move is not to play"

So if you were in charge, you would base internal security on the punchline of a 30 year old, teen hero movie?

I'm beginning to sense the depth of the problem, your perception is warped by a steady diet of B movies.

meeeeeeeeee
join:2003-07-13
Newburgh, NY

meeeeeeeeee

Member

Re: No Win Situation

said by tshirt:

Let' see , 2 brothers who probably mostly spoke only in person, so little to no cell phone or online trace for the NSA and even if they knew they might not choose to reveal how they knew over what was a relatively minor attack, remember this was "pre- snowden". better to save the asset to stop large scale bombings, or chemical/biological/radiological attacks that could effect large numbers of people.

How about two brothers that were HANDED on a SILVER PLATTER to our illustrious government by a foreign agency that actually DOES the hard work of investigating and were ignored and allowed to kill and maim people? I really think that's what you must have been trying to say.

tshirt
Premium Member
join:2004-07-11
Snohomish, WA

1 edit

1 recommendation

tshirt

Premium Member

Re: No Win Situation

Which SEEMS particularly evident in retrospect but apparently was not at the time, and maybe they were being watched, but changed from a plan to attack on 4 of july, but changed to the Boston Marathon shortly before the actual attack?
Perhaps in your fantasy world, EVERY citizen mentioned in a report by a foreign gov't should be hauled off to Guantanamo?

Or that even one error anywhere in our massive bureaucratic gov't, negates everything positive it's ever done?

Learning from our mistakes, but continuing on is why America has been to the moon and back multiple times, are in the process of going to Mars and back, and why much of the world wishes to emulate our best efforts.
No body is ever proud of their mistakes, but if you accept them, learn from them and avoid repeating them you have a chance of doing great things.
If we had paid more attention after the 1993 world trade center bombing and the after effects of the iran-contra 911 might have been stopped.
And from that mistake the NSA mission grew hugely, not to prevent 2-3 or 10- or 20 casualties, but to detect and prevent the big ones.
And if they don't consult with you or throw a parade each time they find something, too bad.
Rekrul
join:2007-04-21
Milford, CT

Rekrul

Member

Re: No Win Situation

said by tshirt:

If we had paid more attention after the 1993 world trade center bombing and the after effects of the iran-contra 911 might have been stopped.

The various government agencies had all the information they needed to stop 911, they just didn't bother sharing information with each other. Just the fact that a bunch of guys wanted to take flying lessons but weren't interested in learning how to land, should have set off all kinds of alarm bells. Seriously, try to think of a rational explanation for why someone would want to know how to fly, but not land.
said by tshirt:

And from that mistake the NSA mission grew hugely, not to prevent 2-3 or 10- or 20 casualties, but to detect and prevent the big ones.

And they went from collecting relevant data on relatively few individuals to collecting a massive amount of data on everyone. How does that help them find and stop plots? It's like the difference between looking for a misplaced penny in your bedroom, and looking for it in Disneyland.

tshirt
Premium Member
join:2004-07-11
Snohomish, WA

tshirt

Premium Member

Re: No Win Situation

said by Rekrul:

Just the fact that a bunch of guys wanted to take flying lessons but weren't interested in learning how to land, should have set off all kinds of alarm bells.

DING DING DING
that's the kind of thing that made them set up these huge "scan everything" systems it takes a little human thought to see that could be people planning an attack and that it should be passed up the line marked as HIGH priorty.
the NSA system does the drudge work to keep the humans in "think about it" mode instead of falling in to a "date stamp it a file it" mindset.
Rekrul
join:2007-04-21
Milford, CT

Rekrul

Member

Re: No Win Situation

said by tshirt:

DING DING DING
that's the kind of thing that made them set up these huge "scan everything" systems it takes a little human thought to see that could be people planning an attack and that it should be passed up the line marked as HIGH priorty.
the NSA system does the drudge work to keep the humans in "think about it" mode instead of falling in to a "date stamp it a file it" mindset.

The problem is that with "scan everything" mode, it collects tons of data that isn't relevant to anything and can easily give a false impression of people.

For example; I sometimes download files from cyberlocker sites, which often have limits such as only downloading one file every two hours. To get around this limitation in the past, I've tried using open proxy sites, some of which are located in the middle east. They're on pretty much every open proxy list on the net.

Because of this, I'm probably on some watchlist, even though the worst thing I've done is download copyrighted material and try to get around the restrictions on a web site. Think what you want of me, but should the NSA and other federal agencies really be wasting their time with someone like me?

Kilroy
MVM
join:2002-11-21
Saint Paul, MN

Kilroy

MVM

Re: No Win Situation

said by Rekrul:

The problem is that with "scan everything" mode, it collects tons of data that isn't relevant to anything.

It isn't scan everything. It is store everything. They are already pressnig companies for their SSL keys so they can then read everything.
said by Rekrul:

The worst thing I've done is download copyrighted material and try to get around the restrictions on a web site. Think what you want of me, but should the NSA and other federal agencies really be wasting their time with someone like me?

Yes, we should fill our prisions with copyright violators as they are a danger to our capalistic way of life and thereby terrorist.

Seriously, no one is so lilly white that their past, if looked at from the correct angle, cannot be seen in a way that may not be correct, and in the worst case may be seen as criminal.

tshirt
Premium Member
join:2004-07-11
Snohomish, WA

tshirt to Rekrul

Premium Member

to Rekrul
I would think the opposite, so you go to a cyberlocker, and you go thru a proxy, so do another 20 million. they might be more suspious if for some reason YOUR IP could down/upload non stop at a higher rate then normal users
it's not one or 2 or 3 things that would point to you but some combination. like if everytime afterwards at exactly 9:11 pm you call joe the known terrorist wantabe, and he always calls the next guy right after your call.

It's only when they see a pattern that some human would review it and say hmm? and go from there.
At that point they might computer scan your texts or email or phone calls for keywords combos. what might take a human days of boring listening machine recognition can do in seconds again saving the human asset for review and analysis
that don't really care about your porn or hobby photos UNLESS recognition software sees detonators or c4 or classified missile parts, which the human might say there was a news story about X and you googled and followed a few links (normal curiosity) vs you look everyday for it on ebay and craigslist and amazon and look up home bomb recipes repeatedly.
At that point they would kick your file to an agent for review
curious kid? or next school shooter?

CylonRed
MVM
join:2000-07-06
Bloom County
·Metronet

CylonRed to Rekrul

MVM

to Rekrul
quote:
The various government agencies had all the information they needed to stop 911, they just didn't bother sharing information with each other.
It was worse than that - it was ILLEGAL for them to share in the info with other agencies.

meeeeeeeeee
join:2003-07-13
Newburgh, NY

2 edits

1 recommendation

meeeeeeeeee to MPScan

Member

to MPScan
said by MPScan:

2. NSA stops what they're doing and another 9/11 happens and we all yell "Why didn't they do more to protect us??? Government FAILED!"

I have a wide selection of bridges for sale at very economic prices. One is just entering the build phase, so I can get you in on the ground floor. While you are here to view your prospective bridges, I can arrange for a visit with the Tooth Fairy.

The ONLY "terrorists" this regime is interested in keeping down are the American People who are rapidly growing wise to them. Why else would the FBI scour the country looking for mental defectives to engage in phony "terrorist plots" so that they can scream "Look! We caught a terrorist". The REAL terrorists do as they please, even when OTHER NATIONS jump up and down and scream "LOOK Amerikan Government, here's a REAL terrorist that is going to maim and kill your people!".

MPScan
Premium Member
join:2001-08-24
Boston, MA

MPScan

Premium Member

Re: No Win Situation

said by meeeeeeeeee:

The ONLY "terrorists" this regime is interested in keeping down are the American People who are rapidly growing wise to them. Why else would the FBI scour the country looking for mental defectives to engage in phony "terrorist plots" so that they can scream "Look! We caught a terrorist". The REAL terrorists do as they please, even when OTHER NATIONS jump up and down and scream "LOOK Amerikan Government, here's a REAL terrorist that is going to maim and kill your prople!".


.... all that worrying must be absolutely exhausting.

In the meantime, I just climbed the Sydney Harbour Bridge four days ago. In six weeks, I plan on getting obliterated on Bourbon St. in New Orleans with a dozen of my closest buddies.

Get out of your little corner of the world and go live life to its fullest. Breathe in some fresh air and stop worrying so damned much and living in fear. I promise, the world really isn't that scary.

elios
join:2005-11-15
Springfield, MO

elios

Member

Re: No Win Situation

see thats the thing WE DONT NEED the NSA doing this stuff or the DHS or the TSA and all of them have done NOTHING to stop any attacks

i say do away with them all they are useless and have proved to prevent nothing

tshirt
Premium Member
join:2004-07-11
Snohomish, WA

tshirt

Premium Member

Re: No Win Situation

said by elios:

see thats the thing WE DONT NEED the NSA doing this stuff or the DHS or the TSA and all of them have done NOTHING to stop any attacks

And you can document that?
You absolutely positively can certify that NONE of those agencies have every done ANYTHING to prevent acts of terror?
Just because YOU believe it's all a scam, It doesn't convince many others who have seen news reports plots disrupted.

CrazyFingers
join:2003-10-01
Columbia, MO

CrazyFingers

Member

Re: No Win Situation

said by tshirt:

It doesn't convince many others who have seen news reports plots disrupted.



MPScan
Premium Member
join:2001-08-24
Boston, MA

MPScan

Premium Member

Re: No Win Situation

Sure.

»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Li ··· d_States

P.S. Don't dismiss just because I posted a Wiki article -- dig into each one and look at the references. Oh but way, you won't, because it's not what you want to hear. Moving on... I've already expended enough energy on this thread and need to actually do something productive with my life.

meeeeeeeeee
join:2003-07-13
Newburgh, NY

meeeeeeeeee

Member

Re: No Win Situation

I won't because I already have NUMEROUS times. IF you bother to look into the cases the government points to as "terrorists", you will see that 99% of the time, they are some poor, mental defective who acted out and the government paints a picture of "terrorist plots" to keep all the sheeple afraid so they can do what they want, which is to make sure that no one threatens their cash cow.

Kilroy
MVM
join:2002-11-21
Saint Paul, MN

Kilroy to MPScan

MVM

to MPScan
And on that wikipedia page the word after appears 17 times out of 28 entries, some of which were assisted by one of the three letter organizations. If you catch them after they do it, it is much different than before, and doesn't count as success in my book. We caught everyone directoy involved in 9/11 after, didn't do over 3,000 people any good. If you assist them and catch them before, that doesn't count either. In other words, it looks good on the surface, but the deeper you dig the lamer it gets. Watching everyone prevents nothing.

tshirt
Premium Member
join:2004-07-11
Snohomish, WA

tshirt

Premium Member

Re: No Win Situation

»thehill.com/blogs/hillic ··· r-plots- might have been important if you ever rode the new York subway.
So they can't reveal all the details of the 50+ plots they claim have been disrupted with Intelligence info (NSA is just ONE tool)
not too surprising.
Just think about it, after one successful major attack on US soil causing so many changes and many attempt foiled by chance or other non secret surveillance, YOU believe Al-Qaeda and other foreign terrorists have just given up and will never attack again? or that domestic surveillance can never reveal ANY terror plot?
of course we notice attacks AFTER the fact 100% of the time and a lesser % beforehand Have you ever played any sport or game where you KNEW 100% how your opponent would play/try to win? Really? 100%? why did you even play?

firephoto
Truth and reality matters
Premium Member
join:2003-03-18
Brewster, WA

firephoto to tshirt

Premium Member

to tshirt
said by tshirt:

said by elios:

see thats the thing WE DONT NEED the NSA doing this stuff or the DHS or the TSA and all of them have done NOTHING to stop any attacks

And you can document that?
You absolutely positively can certify that NONE of those agencies have every done ANYTHING to prevent acts of terror?
Just because YOU believe it's all a scam, It doesn't convince many others who have seen news reports plots disrupted.

You hit closer on a point than a previous reference to it today above..

The problem is the government isn't even trying to prevent. They are trying to string along the terrorism till it gets as widely distributed and as big as possible and then swoop in like a knight and save lives days or hours before it happens.

It mostly amounts to entrapment because agencies like the FBI are famous for inserting agents into terror plots to help the ones who have trouble making a good plan succeed enough to break terrorism laws.

If Joey Blowey and his friends are making plans to blow something up then why can't the feds go visit him? Maybe he gets pissed off and takes a swing or just does some other minor thing that results in the law being broke? You charge him, you file a report, you make a press release with the reason for visiting him and now his community where he lives knows that this guy was up to no good. Sounds like it's a great way to solve a problem that benefits communities and this country.

Kilroy
MVM
join:2002-11-21
Saint Paul, MN

Kilroy to tshirt

MVM

to tshirt
Please reference these plots that have been disrupted, you can't. Why, because they can't tell us what they have disrupted. The only stories I've seen are the ones where the three letter groups provided support, like this. That doesn't count in my book because there is a good chance that this person didn't have the means or initiative to do anything on his own, but was willing to do the job if someone else provided everything he needed.

All this surveillance is only good after the fact to catch the people involved. It prevents nothing, and only provides a false sense of security. There is too much data to sift through in real time, unless the people involved are incredibly stupid where they communicate in clear text without any form of code or encryption.
CXM_Splicer
Looking at the bigger picture
Premium Member
join:2011-08-11
NYC

CXM_Splicer to tshirt

Premium Member

to tshirt
said by tshirt:

And you can document that?

Hahaha, how do you document something that doesn't happen??

elios
join:2005-11-15
Springfield, MO

elios to tshirt

Member

to tshirt
said by tshirt:

said by elios:

see thats the thing WE DONT NEED the NSA doing this stuff or the DHS or the TSA and all of them have done NOTHING to stop any attacks

And you can document that?
You absolutely positively can certify that NONE of those agencies have every done ANYTHING to prevent acts of terror?
Just because YOU believe it's all a scam, It doesn't convince many others who have seen news reports plots disrupted.

BOSTON

Alex Reynold
@optonline.net

Alex Reynold

Anon

Re: No Win Situation

Here's the problem...... collection of this data wouldn't just go towards preventing "terrorism" it would also go towards anyone who opposes the government (history shows this is a slippery slope), environmental groups who oppose Monsanto and the government's collusion with them, anyone looking to expose corruption in the government, military, the drone program, whatever. Or do people not remember that Obama's Gestapo were harassing families of whistleblowers just a few years ago? This country is turning into more of a plutocracy on a daily basis. None of us wants to become the next Bradley Manning. Read Truth Out if you want to know what really goes on behind the scenes.

The best thing we can do, now that we know what's going on, is to use proxies as much as possible, and programs like Peer Guardian and IP cloaking features.

Ben Franklin said, "Those who value security over freedom, deserve neither." And Thomas Jefferson said" In a nation where the government fears the people we have democracy. In one where the people fear the government, we have tyranny." Both are probably turning in their graves right now, knowing that this country is going the way of the Roman Empire. It's going to implode from within before any outside "threat" has a chance to do anything.

meeeeeeeeee
join:2003-07-13
Newburgh, NY

1 edit

meeeeeeeeee to MPScan

Member

to MPScan
Seems you're the one worried about a "boogiman" behind every bush. Burying your head in the sand is a great response... it fixes everything. Please be sure to bring cash.

agr3333d
@qwest.net

agr3333d to meeeeeeeeee

Anon

to meeeeeeeeee
Hardly anyone cried when our rights were revoked by the Patriot Act -- Truth is, people for the most part, were in a vulnerable state of emotions, and figured anything our government could do to stop these supposed terrorists, we will allow, so we can be safe.

We can't stop this machine though -- the budgets have been written and many people in many states are depending on getting these funds, and will do what they can to continue this witch hunt. I just do not understand why we can see our government running a HUGE deficit, and still allow them to build more and more to "defend us from terrorists by analyzing your e-mail".

Look at the bridges in your state - look at the school system lack of funding -- look at our aging electrical grid --- Why are we not fixing these items? Instead we will spend billions to build a new data center to store your e-mail and web browsing history, because this is much more important, as you maybe a terrorist?

Quit watching people innocent people -- the spooks know who is and who isn't, but they want you to believe that they need to know what everyone is doing, and that is when my 4th is violated and I become more unhappy...
The Antihero
join:2002-04-09
Enola, PA

The Antihero

Member

Re: No Win Situation

said by agr3333d :

Hardly anyone cried when our rights were revoked by the Patriot Act

And the few that did were branded as traitors, or even terrorists.

NOCTech75
Premium Member
join:2009-06-29
Marietta, GA

NOCTech75 to MPScan

Premium Member

to MPScan
said by MPScan:

2. NSA stops what they're doing and another 9/11 happens and we all yell "Why didn't they do more to protect us??? Government FAILED!"

We did a hell of a job stopping a potential bombing at the finish line of the Boston Marathon this past year.

••••••••

FFH5
Premium Member
join:2002-03-03
Tavistock NJ

FFH5 to MPScan

Premium Member

to MPScan
said by MPScan:

There's no way to "win" this argument...

1. NSA does what it's doing now and we all yell "ZOMG! My privacy is being invaded! Government BAD, BAD, BAD!"

2. NSA stops what they're doing and another 9/11 happens and we all yell "Why didn't they do more to protect us??? Government FAILED!"

Me? Personally? Let them monitor me. When it comes down to it, in a country of 350+ million, I am just not that interesting. You wanna look at what I had for lunch, the last time I called my aunt, or what type of porn I look at? Have a blast.

The House did pass an amendment that chastised the NSA and said they aren't allowed to TARGET US citizens in the US, but that didn't take any money away. The press largely ignored that vote on the Pompeo amendment:

Before the Amash amendment, the Pompeo amendment on NSA was overwhelmingly passed(409-12). It tells NSA to not TARGET US citizens, but makes no changes to existing laws or takes any money from NSA budget. Sort of a "be good NSA drones" warning. The key word in the amendment is "TARGET" and how the NSA may interpret that word.
»repcloakroom.house.gov/

Pompeo (R-KS) – Amendment No. 99 - Ensures none of the funds may be used by the NSA to target a US person or acquire and store the content of a US person’s communications, including phone calls and e-mails.

The Pompeo Amendment could open the door for lawsuits against the NSA if they violate the admonition to not spy or collect info on US citizens.

meeeeeeeeee
join:2003-07-13
Newburgh, NY

meeeeeeeeee to MPScan

Member

to MPScan
If a house on the other side of town catches on fire, do you set YOURS on fire with your family in it to make sure it's "safe" from the other fire spreading? Well that's what you are doing to your nation. It's absurd.

tshirt
Premium Member
join:2004-07-11
Snohomish, WA

tshirt

Premium Member

Re: No Win Situation

said by meeeeeeeeee:

If a house on the other side of town catches on fire, do you set YOURS on fire with your family in it to make sure it's "safe" from the other fire spreading?

How would that work?
said by meeeeeeeeee:

It's absurd.

That's what I thought

meeeeeeeeee
join:2003-07-13
Newburgh, NY

meeeeeeeeee

Member

Re: No Win Situation

So how does destroying the very foundation of this country to protect it from the imaginary boogiemen the government has filled your head with? It makes as much sense.
biochemistry
Premium Member
join:2003-05-09
92361

biochemistry to MPScan

Premium Member

to MPScan
Great for you. We will put you on a list of people who want to be monitored. Just hope you never get accused of rape or molestation. Then when the NSA sees that you like some pretty nasty porn, that information will be supplied to the district attorney who will be able to convict you by showing the jury that since you like hentai or the like then you must be guilty of rape.
CXM_Splicer
Looking at the bigger picture
Premium Member
join:2011-08-11
NYC

CXM_Splicer to MPScan

Premium Member

to MPScan
said by MPScan:

Me? Personally? Let them monitor me. When it comes down to it, in a country of 350+ million, I am just not that interesting. You wanna look at what I had for lunch, the last time I called my aunt, or what type of porn I look at? Have a blast.

The problem with this argument is that no one actually believes it. Sounds good on paper: 'Yes, I have faith our government is doing the right thing' but that's about it. The reality is that when that faith is tested by upping the ante to video, everyone (so far) has folded.

So the question to you is: Would you have a problem having your house wired for video that the NSA records 24/7? There is no doubt at all that this would provide evidence to prosecute thousands of crimes and help fight terrorism yet, strangely, people suddenly find their 'need for privacy' when confronted with such a tool.

The 'I'm not that interesting so I have nothing to hide' view is easily countered with 'I am not that interesting so the government has no reason to monitor me'... after all, that is how this country is SUPPOSE to work.

Alex Reynold
@optonline.net

Alex Reynold

Anon

Re: No Win Situation

I laugh at these people who "have faith in our government." Really, are people that naive?! Do they know the history of what the government has done over the past 50 years? Experimenting on mental patients at Mass General Hospital, the Tuskeegee experiments, forcing women who got raped to have abortions (because they'd be unfit mothers), giving companies with loads of money, like Monsanto, carte blanche to dump toxic waste in the ground water of small towns like Anniston, Alabama. Now they're checking internet download histories to make sure we dont download copyrighted materials (even ringtones heh.)

Power corrupts ..... and well you all know the rest of the quote. And power and money together- well you can just kiss democracy, bye bye. Ever heard of Super PACs? Power and Money- A surefire way to destroy this country, much more than any group of terrorists ever could. Funny how some people react like they're rats in an experiment, push their buttons and see how many of their rights can be taken away so they are easier to control. And they dont even see what's happening (and this applies to BOTH political parties.)
intok (banned)
join:2012-03-15

intok (banned) to MPScan

Member

to MPScan
said by MPScan:

There's no way to "win" this argument...

1. NSA does what it's doing now and we all yell "ZOMG! My privacy is being invaded! Government BAD, BAD, BAD!"

2. NSA stops what they're doing and another 9/11 happens and we all yell "Why didn't they do more to protect us??? Government FAILED!"

Me? Personally? Let them monitor me. When it comes down to it, in a country of 350+ million, I am just not that interesting. You wanna look at what I had for lunch, the last time I called my aunt, or what type of porn I look at? Have a blast.

And you are a fool that doesn't know his history of what you speak and deserves neither security or liberty.

The feds knew long in advance that Osama was going to attack the US, it was backed the equivalent agencies of several other countries and the Bush administration did nothing. Condeliza Rice is on record saying they knew.

They knew this and they weren't warrantlessly wiretapping the entire US population.

cchhat01
Dr. Zoidberg
join:2001-05-01
Elmhurst, NY

cchhat01

Member

Not to pass judgment

but it seems like a lot of crap is messed here internally. What comes to mind are laws that can acquit the likes of OJ Simpson, Casey Anthony and Zimmerman.
The entire populace acts on a sudden emotional response.
Sure, ban guns after the devastation at Sandy Hook.
Sure, {try to} curb the activities of the NSA after the Snowden leaks.
Sure, try to do things just when the iron is hot.
Sure, pass the PATRIOT act right after the terror attacks...

These are emotional responses. They are meant to take action swiftly, and not meant to be the day-to-day governing law. These need to be curbed over time to keep the government in check. But ofcourse, people care more about legalizing marijuana than they do about making sure that the government represents the people, and not the other way around.

We signed away our rights long time ago.
Long ago, there was a communist threat (George Orwell's 1984 was a clear depiction). It was required high school reading. For me, that was in 1996.
It seems so that the fear of things turning into 1984 and governmental abuse has twisted things in the opposite direction predicted by Aldous Huxley. His vision: We will be too engrossed in our own loathing (reality tv, gadgets, access to unnecessary stuff we already saturate our lives with, etc) to realize what we have left behind. Namely, freedom and justice.

cchhat01
criggs
join:2000-07-14
New York, NY

criggs

Member

Democratic/Republican Breakdown

Karl wrote: "83 Democrats, the party that's supposed to be specifically interested in civil rights, voted down the Amendment."

Okay, I don't think anyone would seriously deny that Republicans' record on civil rights is not as good as Democrats, so I'm certainly with you there. And it is perfectly true that a majority of Republicans voted against this amendment.

Nor would I disagree that those 83 Democrats voting against this amendment did the wrong thing, and that that vote constitutes grounds for voting them out of office if that vote is combined with other votes that a voter also finds objectionable (I'm leery of one-issue voters).

But, in fairness, as long as you're pointing out this stuff, I think it also bears mentioning that a majority of Democrats, 111 to be exact, voted FOR the amendment, including my own representative, Carolyn Maloney. The government is hog-tied and completely in the sway of those who prioritize surveillance over constitutional liberties and civil rights, no question there. But there are folks in government who are genuinely and sincerely horrified by the situation and are trying to fix it, so let's give them their due, in both parties.

•••
Resifute
join:2009-04-21
North Fort Myers, FL

Resifute

Member

OWG Coming to a Planet Near You.

The groundwork is all being set in place. Don't be surprised when it happens. You've been warned.
hrickpa
join:2001-06-07
Reading, PA

hrickpa

Member

NSA funding Can be used for other Things

The funds that the NSA gets can be used for fixing the infrastructure, education, state and federal parks, and jobs. this is one of the reasons that this country is going broke if this keeps up we are going to turn into a third world country

amarryat
Verizon FiOS
join:2005-05-02
Marshfield, MA

amarryat

Member

Democrats = big govt.

"83 Democrats, the party that's supposed to be specifically interested in civil rights"

On the contrary, this is right up the democratic alley. Lots of government oversight and control. Not surprising the democrats want the NSA to keep doing what it's doing.

•••••
war59312
join:2001-03-02
Elgin, SC

war59312

Member

Bomb..

Time to Bomb Bluffdale, Utah ?

If any of us really do CARE, then this building will cease to exist.

Other wise, it's just TALK!
old_wiz_60
join:2005-06-03
Bedford, MA

old_wiz_60

Member

Offending the NSA

is a good way to get a one-way ticket to Gitmo. The Congressmen want to stay healthy and not get tortured.

GRIZZMEISTER
join:2005-02-10
Wake Forest, NC

GRIZZMEISTER

Member

They Know Much More Than You Think

My State of North Carolina is bought and paid for by the Military Industrial Complex (MIC) and the Surveillance Industrial Complex (SIC); so even though I contacted my Representative’s office requesting he support the Amash Bill he still went ahead and voted to allow the NSA to continue spying on innocent US citizens. :' (

»www.nybooks.com/articles ··· /?page=1

megarock
join:2001-06-28
Fenton, MO

megarock

Member

It's not the NSA...

It's Section 215 of the Patriot Act. If you completely defund the entire NSA and eliminate it the FBI will just take over those duties because that's how Republicans wrote the law back in 2002. If you want privacy back then DEFUND HOMELAND SECURITY and REPEAL THE PATRIOT ACT.

That's what gave them the power...take it away.

••••••