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NSA WhistleBlowers Highlight Scope of Domestic Spying
The Largest Domestic Spy System Ever Built
by Karl Bode Monday 27-Aug-2012 tags: legal · business · wireless · Op/Ed · privacy · consumers · wireless
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Whistleblowers the last ten years have highlighted repeatedly how the phone companies are helping the government spy on its own citizens by dumping all Internet data directly into the laps of government (pdf), who is busily building a massive supercomputer warehouse in Utah to dig through it all. The general public's response to this has been slack-jawed apathy, and recently one of the last real chances to challenge our domestic spying programs went up in legal flames.

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Under current law, the government is not supposed to spy on citizens without a court order, but we've seen time and time again that the government and intelligence community have almost total disdain for the laws they're supposed to follow on this front (citizens of course are supposed to sheepishly obey every dumb copyright or other law corporations demand the government support).

NSA whistleblowers continue to leak new information on the government's post 9-11 unaccountable surveillance state, discussed in a new video documentary recently posted over at the NY Times. It specifically focuses on whistleblower William Binney, who worked as a mathematician and code breaker at the NSA. Binney is providing even more detail on what the NSA code-named "Stellar Wind" -- the creation of the largest and most sophisticated domestic surveillance apparatus ever built.

Of course if you're not doing anything wrong, you have absolutely no reason to fear a government surveillance system that whistleblowers claim has gone completely out of control, right?

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Harddrive
Proud American and Infidel since 1968.
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And don't forget about...

The FBI's new surveillance collection center called NDCAC.

Linklist
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Whistleblowers in a spy agency should be persecuted

Whistleblowers in a spy agency should be persecuted. And yes I said persecuted and not prosecuted. When you sign on to work at a spy agency, you don't become a whistleblower - EVER.
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vpoko
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Boston, MA

Re: Whistleblowers in a spy agency should be persecuted

The flip side of that is when you hire someone to do something shady, you shouldn't be surprised when they double cross you.
Wilsdom

join:2009-08-06
A spy agency filled with dumb and loyal bureaucrats is a waste of money. An agency that produces whistle-blowers, double-agents, triple-agents, alcoholics, suicides, sex scandals involving dogs, etc. is healthy and a wise use of tax money.

coldmoon
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said by Linklist:

Whistleblowers in a spy agency should be persecuted. And yes I said persecuted and not prosecuted. When you sign on to work at a spy agency, you don't become a whistleblower - EVER.

This is total and complete nonsense with this type of thinking universally condemned during the Nuremberg trials at the end of WWII.

I was just following orders... or more appropriately I was prevented from disclosing unethical or potentially illegal behavior in my organization because I signed a piece of paper...

Yours, and others, similar POV is the problem...not the cure and is definitely anti-American at it's core...
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N3OGH
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Re: Whistleblowers in a spy agency should be persecuted

While I disagree with the sentiments of the OP (no one deserves to be persecuted for anything. Prosecuted? Yes. Punished? Sure. Persecuted? No), I have to say its a looooooong road from listening to calls and checking out what porn sites I visit on the Internet to the systemic extermination of an entire race of people and the mass murder of millions.

RE: Godwin's law.

»en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

Just sayin'........
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Cthen

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Well, did ya catch the name and avatar?

vpoko
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said by Linklist:

Whistleblowers in a spy agency should be persecuted. And yes I said persecuted and not prosecuted. When you sign on to work at a spy agency, you don't become a whistleblower - EVER.

What if a low-level NSA employee discovered that Obama was planning on staging a coup, with the help of the intelligence community, if he loses the election. I am beyond shocked that you would be in favor of keeping an Obama coup quiet.

Kilroy
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Ann Arbor, MI
said by Linklist:

When you sign on to work at a spy agency, you don't become a whistleblower - EVER.

So you just check your morals at the door? When your government is not following the rules you just look the other way? Sorry, we all need to play by the rules. If the government isn't they need to be called on it. Winning by playing like the enemy makes you a loser and no better. Just because you're in power doesn't mean you can do whatever you want because you believe it is right.
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cableties
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said by Linklist:

Whistleblowers in a spy agency should be persecuted. And yes I said persecuted and not prosecuted. When you sign on to work at a spy agency, you don't become a whistleblower - EVER.

This is EXACTLY the post I would expect from a Mitt Romney supporter: bliss. or troll attempt. Both!

Perhaps Bain Capital should be persecuted for dealing with the Chinese?

Or that Boston's Big Dig wasn't over-budget? Don't forget the drivers that got killed from the faulty anchors...

We need to tax the internets for a Universal Persecution Fund...to build that guillotine in DC... first are the lobbyists, then the lawyers, the representatives, then the senators, their aids, and finally the rest of the lot of Republican/Democrat supporters...

Oh, and Foxnews
CNN too?

But not whistleblowers. No. They represent a dying breed of workers that DID have loyalty, and delusion that everyone in their workplace was hardworking and honest (just like them).
Too bad the bad apples ruin it.

Here, our society penalizes the honest and glorifies the cheaters, thieves and criminals!
--
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Linklist
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Re: Whistleblowers in a spy agency should be persecuted

said by cableties:

said by Linklist:

Whistleblowers in a spy agency should be persecuted. And yes I said persecuted and not prosecuted. When you sign on to work at a spy agency, you don't become a whistleblower - EVER.

Perhaps Bain Capital should be persecuted for dealing with the Chinese?

Or that Boston's Big Dig wasn't over-budget? Don't forget the drivers that got killed from the faulty anchors...

Was either Bain or the Big Dig operators spy agencies?
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Ebolla

join:2005-09-28
Dracut, MA

Re: Whistleblowers in a spy agency should be persecuted

no but a whistleblower is a whistleblower regardless of where they work.

pnh102
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said by cableties:

This is EXACTLY the post I would expect from a Mitt Romney supporter: bliss. or troll attempt. Both!

As if your knight in shining armor 0bama actually did anything to curtail this? Didn't he reauthorize the Patriot Act what, 3 times?

You 0bama supporters have no place to talk about this. Period.
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coldmoon
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Re: Whistleblowers in a spy agency should be persecuted

said by pnh102:

said by cableties:

This is EXACTLY the post I would expect from a Mitt Romney supporter: bliss. or troll attempt. Both!

As if your knight in shining armor 0bama actually did anything to curtail this? Didn't he reauthorize the Patriot Act what, 3 times?

You 0bama supporters have no place to talk about this. Period.

Actually Obama supporters have more legitimacy in criticizing him on this and other issues. Just because you strongly oppose a specific policy or actions, does not remove that person's legitimate right to support him in an election; especially when that person might see his opponent as a completely unacceptable alternative...

Remember, our system is a choice between what the voters see as the lesser of two evils, not because the person running believes everything the voter does...
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pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
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Re: Whistleblowers in a spy agency should be persecuted

said by coldmoon:

Actually Obama supporters have more legitimacy in criticizing him on this and other issues. Just because you strongly oppose a specific policy or actions, does not remove that person's legitimate right to support him in an election; especially when that person might see his opponent as a completely unacceptable alternative...

No, you're just looking for excuses to vote for a guy who is worse on privacy rights than his predecessor. 0bama has zero credibility on this issue, period.

Funny how it is only conservatives who point out inconvenient truths like these. We never once hear the left complaining about these things when it is their guy doing them.
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coldmoon
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Re: Whistleblowers in a spy agency should be persecuted

said by pnh102:

said by coldmoon:

Actually Obama supporters have more legitimacy in criticizing him on this and other issues. Just because you strongly oppose a specific policy or actions, does not remove that person's legitimate right to support him in an election; especially when that person might see his opponent as a completely unacceptable alternative...

No, you're just looking for excuses to vote for a guy who is worse on privacy rights than his predecessor. 0bama has zero credibility on this issue, period.

Funny how it is only conservatives who point out inconvenient truths like these. We never once hear the left complaining about these things when it is their guy doing them.

Lol - and the right was equally as silent when Bush II got this all in place to begin with... No President, regardless of party, is going to work to give away powers he/she is granted by the Constitution OR either of the two other branches of Government.

IFO am highly critical of some of Obama's policies, but that does not mean I think Mitt-Flop is the proper person in this election cycle to wield those powers...for any reason...
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Chubbysumo

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said by coldmoon:

Remember, our system is a choice between what the voters see as the lesser of two evils, not because the person running believes everything the voter does...

actually, your states electoral college can decide to go against the popular vote and arbitrarily chose a candidate. remember, popular vote means nothing, and never has.

coldmoon
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Re: Whistleblowers in a spy agency should be persecuted

said by Chubbysumo:

said by coldmoon:

Remember, our system is a choice between what the voters see as the lesser of two evils, not because the person running believes everything the voter does...

actually, your states electoral college can decide to go against the popular vote and arbitrarily chose a candidate. remember, popular vote means nothing, and never has.

True, but that doesn't negate what I said. The EC is just round 2 where they are presented with the same "choice" the general public is presented; they simply have more information as to how their fellow citizens voted and should be moved by that assessment though they CAN and HAVE voted against the wishes of the general population...
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said by Linklist:

Whistleblowers in a spy agency should be persecuted. And yes I said persecuted and not prosecuted. When you sign on to work at a spy agency, you don't become a whistleblower - EVER.

Wow really? When you sign up to work for a spy agency you are obligated under law to uphold the US Constitution and defend it against all enemies ..foreign and DOMESTIC.
ronmark

join:2000-12-25
Moreno Valley, CA

Re: Whistleblowers in a spy agency should be persecuted

StLCardsFan got it right.

An officer of the United States is bound by his oath to DISOBEY any order that violates the Constitution.

These activities by NSA are, in my mind, clear violations of the 4th amendment of the Constitution. In fact, they are of a nature acts more appropriately used in war against a foreign enemy. (SOP)

Both Bush II and Obongo have been oblivious to these minor little details. As I recall, wasn't it reported that Bush said the Constitution was only "a f***ing piece of paper" ?
nasadude

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said by Linklist:

Whistleblowers in a spy agency should be persecuted. And yes I said persecuted and not prosecuted. When you sign on to work at a spy agency, you don't become a whistleblower - EVER.

why do you hate freedom?
Cogdis

join:2007-03-26
Floral Park, NY
said by Linklist:

Whistleblowers in a spy agency should be persecuted. And yes I said persecuted and not prosecuted. When you sign on to work at a spy agency, you don't become a whistleblower - EVER.

He probably didn't sign on to spy indiscriminately on Americans who've done nothing wrong.
Kearnstd
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Actually no, if the agency is acting outside of what is moral and right than it should be reported to the public.
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openbox9
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Re: Whistleblowers in a spy agency should be persecuted

Why does everyone attempt to bring morality into these debates? It's a sure way to lose any argument, regardless of where your morals fall. Your argument becomes valid if you state that an agency acting outside of what is legal should be reported to law enforcement and ultimately the public if the law continues to be violated.

Noah Vail
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Re: Whistleblowers in a spy agency should be persecuted

said by openbox9:

Why does everyone attempt to bring morality into these debates?

Which laws have no basis in morality?
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openbox9
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Re: Whistleblowers in a spy agency should be persecuted

Irrelevant. Your morality may or may not fall in line with the majority's morality that established the law.
sandman_1

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What about when it goes against the Constitution of the United States?

You comment is so illogical.

Noah Vail
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said by Linklist:

Whistleblowers in a spy agency should be persecuted. And yes I said persecuted and not prosecuted. When you sign on to work at a spy agency, you don't become a whistleblower - EVER.

As a 20 year conservative I can state with clarity:
This statement is everything that's wrong with conservatism.

Dedication to government power without regard to citizen liberty is an unethical sickness bordering on evil.

What's the payoff for promoting that?
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camaro92
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You can't have it both ways, either it applies to everyone or no one,you can't pick and choose to suit your agenda with or without a piece of paper you sign. If no one is in danger by this info being released then I say keep it coming because it seems to me citizens are the only thing keeping them in check.

I know this doesn't apply to national security but if a bank or insurance company was screwing all there customers in some way that we wouldn't like then I don't think there would be even be a argument about the whistle blower who broke that story.
Telco

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Paranoia

It's amazing how people are still scared of our government and have A to Z in tinfoil conspiracy theories.

All while private corporations that are not accountable to anyone are allowed to data-mine whatever they like about us. A practice rationally illegal in a range of industrialized nations.

No wonder every abroad thinks we are stupid, as we are obsessed with conspiracies about government, while we literally give free reign to fascist corporatism.
Wilsdom

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Re: Paranoia

How many people has Google tortured, locked in dungeons, or assassinated?
Telco

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Re: Paranoia

What percentage of Americans has this happened to? Not to mention, this is about data mining.

One is baseless paranoia, the other is reality and happening this very moment. Hence, it being prohibited in more and more industrialized nations.

A vast portion of the world hates us because of our foreign policies. Therefore, we need every tool we can get to prevent terrorism and hopefully one day general crime too.

Whereas, corporations data-mining serves no purpose to me.

KodiacZiller
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said by Telco:

It's amazing how people are still scared of our government and have A to Z in tinfoil conspiracy theories.

All while private corporations that are not accountable to anyone are allowed to data-mine whatever they like about us. A practice rationally illegal in a range of industrialized nations.

No wonder every abroad thinks we are stupid, as we are obsessed with conspiracies about government, while we literally give free reign to fascist corporatism.

A corporation cannot put you in jail. A corporation cannot take away your rights or freedoms. A corporation is there to make money (a la Google with it's advertising). There's a big difference between a corporation invading your privacy and a crooked government. Of course the worst is when the two work together (as Google and NSA do).
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Kearnstd
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Re: Paranoia

said by KodiacZiller:

said by Telco:

It's amazing how people are still scared of our government and have A to Z in tinfoil conspiracy theories.

All while private corporations that are not accountable to anyone are allowed to data-mine whatever they like about us. A practice rationally illegal in a range of industrialized nations.

No wonder every abroad thinks we are stupid, as we are obsessed with conspiracies about government, while we literally give free reign to fascist corporatism.

A corporation cannot put you in jail. A corporation cannot take away your rights or freedoms. A corporation is there to make money (a la Google with it's advertising). There's a big difference between a corporation invading your privacy and a crooked government. Of course the worst is when the two work together (as Google and NSA do).

Of course if the two do not work together the government just makes laws requiring them to. And gets the law passed by saying said laws are to "Fight The Evil Terrorists" or they use the age old Spin "For the Children" and "Fight Child Pornography".
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nonamesleft

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said by Telco:

It's amazing how people are still scared of our government and have A to Z in tinfoil conspiracy theories.

All while private corporations that are not accountable to anyone are allowed to data-mine whatever they like about us. A practice rationally illegal in a range of industrialized nations.

No wonder every abroad thinks we are stupid, as we are obsessed with conspiracies about government, while we literally give free reign to fascist corporatism.

Those same corporations you mention have bought off government and more then likely have a person from said corporation working in government looking out for there past employers interests.
Often times conspiracies about government is right on the money, that's why government hates conspiracy theorists so damn much.

battleop

join:2005-09-28
00000

Why?

Why was this was evil under Bush but not under Obama? Seems to me that neither party is willing to give up this power which makes them both evil.
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PastTense

join:2011-07-06
united state

Too Much Data To Be Useful

When you have this vast quantity of data, you are in a needle in a haystack situation and it is doubtful the government can pull out much of use. A similar situation is where banks have to file a report whenever someone has a $10,000 cash transaction--there are just too many reports to process.

NickD
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Re: Too Much Data To Be Useful

said by PastTense:

When you have this vast quantity of data, you are in a needle in a haystack situation and it is doubtful the government can pull out much of use. A similar situation is where banks have to file a report whenever someone has a $10,000 cash transaction--there are just too many reports to process.

It's too much data to sift through and analyze to try to detect criminals. But let's say a guy is busted with several pounds of drugs. They can search the database of large bank transactions and gather evidence that would support the fact that he's laundering money. That proves he had intent to distribute, and they can add the money laundering charges.
Joe Highroller at the casinos might generate lots of large cash transactions, but they won't raise any red flags unless he's caught for some other crime. There are people who bet $10000 or more on each hand of blackjack, each spin of the roulette wheel, etc. Every time they place a bet, the casino has to file a cash transaction report. Every time he wins a bet, the casino has to file a tax form. Of course it's worth it for a casino to file those forms since the high roller pays someone's salary every time he loses.
MyDogHsFleas
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Spin, spin, spin, spin, spin....

is anyone interested in the way things actually are? as opposed to the ridiculous spin that these "whistleblowers" are being given?

William Binney is simply a butt-hurt former NSA geek (not the "Lead", "Head of the program", or "Chief Designer", or any of the other completely made-up titles in this spin cycle). The program he was touting was killed in favor of another. He went into a rage, filing complaints. etc. All the rest of this is simply his rage at the NSA, which the spin meisters who are against the NSA even existing or having an anti-terrorist mission are using to further their cause. He actually has no idea what's really going on, it's all made up speculation.

Don't believe me? See »en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trailblazer_Project

See 9 replies to this post

M1M1

@sbcglobal.net

We NEED MORE whistle blowers!

That Mitt Romney supporter is just an idiot. We NEED MORE whistle blowers to come forward. In addition, we should have a LAW to protect them and citizens should THANK them! Only a MORON would think that the govt should be able to do whatever they want without answering to the PEOPLE. Remember WE THE PEOPLE run this country and WE THE PEOPLE deserve to know **ALL** that happens. Just because they slap a made up "spy" label on a person does NOT give them powers above THE PEOPLE or the CONSTITUTION!
Chubbysumo

join:2009-12-01
Superior, WI
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·Charter

did everyone miss all the news about the NSAs programs

Wikileaks posted a huge bunch of articles about the massive NSA domestic spying program, and sub programs, that can track you just based on facial recognition and body movements. Thankfully, there arent a ton of cameras up here yet, but they have been basically given blanket access to any municipal or state operated camera, of any kind, and that feeds into their databases. The place in Utah is probably to store and manage all that data. The US Governement is more worried about a new revolution because of all the corruption going on right now, and thus, their sponsors are now trying to suppress the populace. Domestic spying isnt necessary on the scale the government does it, its just done so that they can stop any potential revolutions before they start.
openbox9
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japan
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Re: did everyone miss all the news about the NSAs programs

said by Chubbysumo:

their sponsors are now trying to suppress the populace.

I can't believe how many tinfoil hat wearers we have. Do you honestly believe US citizens have boots on their throats?

Joe3

@comcast.net

Re: did everyone miss all the news about the NSAs programs

Naw... we're more subtle than that. :P
mythology
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Seneca, SC
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·Northland Cable ..

Any congressman or political office holder

Any congressman or any person holding a public political office in this country should be put on trial for treason for passing unconstitutional laws and funding for unconstitutional programs. The government is now in the business of protecting itself from its citizens so that it can continue its corrupt existence without oversight or judicial reform.
openbox9
Premium
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japan
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Re: Any congressman or political office holder

How about we just null and void the unconstitutional laws and get back to business? Educate our society and let them vote the ignorants out of office. If a majority of citizens are upset with our current system, they can vote to truly change it. And I'm not just talking about voting for the other guy that's no different than the current guy.
iknow
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join:2012-03-25
said by mythology:

Any congressman or any person holding a public political office in this country should be put on trial for treason for passing unconstitutional laws and funding for unconstitutional programs. The government is now in the business of protecting itself from its citizens so that it can continue its corrupt existence without oversight or judicial reform.

the problem is, voters want it the way it is, because they keep on voting!!.

envoid

join:2002-12-21
Duluth, GA

They should've called it...

...Colossus as I'm sure it will stop responding to them and make us all slaves to it.

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