dslreports logo
 story category
NSA Whistleblowers: Uh, We Told You All About This Already
Can We Stop Treating Total Surveillance As a Conspiracy Theory Now?

We've seen whistleblower after whistleblower (both at AT&T, the NSA and the FBI) unequivocally state that all carriers are handing over all data to the NSA in real time, all the time, with a blanket disregard for both ethics and the law. As such, this morning's "revelation" that Verizon was asked to simply hand over call metadata for its users is neither shocking or new. It's simply an extension of the horrible things we know already.

Oddly the mainstream press seems to have a hard time with this broader context, and in many stories reporters seem to want to ignore the long line of NSA whistle blowers who've been exposing this program for a decade. Congress has known about it since 2007. Said politicians are busy arguing this isn't a big deal because it has been known about for some time -- even though that apathy in the face of existing facts is precisely why citizens should be annoyed.

Democracy Now was one of the only news outfits I've seen that went back and talked to two of the program's NSA whistleblowers, including Thomas Drake and William Binney. Both seem shocked that the press seems to be treating this like a "new" scandal, when it's just an extension of the existing, disgusting one. Thomas Drake was charged with violating The Espionage Act in 2010 after he tried to expose fraud and waste at the agency. He had this to say about this week's Verizon "revelation":
quote:
"Where has the mainstream media been? These are routine orders, nothing new," Drake says. "What’s new is we’re seeing an actual order and people are somehow surprised by it. The fact remains that this program has been in place for quite some time it was actually started shortly after 9/11. The PATRIOT Act was the enabling mechanism that allowed the United States government in secret to acquire subscriber records from any company."
William Binney had a forty-year career at the NSA and had this to say:
quote:
"NSA has been doing all this stuff all along and it’s been all the companies not just one. And I basically looked at that and said if Verizon got one, so did everybody else. Which means that, they're just continuing the collection of this kind of information of all U.S. citizens."
It almost seems like the press doesn't quite seem to know what to do with the truth they've discovered: the United States government (both parties) is intent on building a secret, almost-entirely unaccountable surveillance state while paying entirely bogus lip service to freedom, privacy, and liberty. I've spent the last ten years watching the press act like total NSA surveillance was a crackpot conspiracy theory. So what happens now that this is no longer debatable?
view:
topics flat nest 
slckusr
Premium Member
join:2003-03-17
Greenville, SC

slckusr

Premium Member

Slow news day for them.

Its standard fair (to request the info) but they must not have much on their plates right now.(mainstream media)

Its good the mainstream have finally picked up on this its the only way the flock will listen.

juilinsandar
Texas Gooner
Premium Member
join:2000-07-17
San Benito, TX

juilinsandar

Premium Member

Re: Slow news day for them.

No regular person is going to pay attention to this kind of story. It's just not interesting enough and doesn't matter to them personally.

The next superman movie, or the finale for game of thrones, has more import to their lives.
clone (banned)
join:2000-12-11
Portage, IN

clone (banned) to slckusr

Member

to slckusr
Which means we should expect something to blow up shortly.
SunnyD
join:2009-03-20
Madison, AL

SunnyD

Member

It only gets play for the words "All Americans"

Seriously, every other publicized "sweep" of this nature had a targeted context attached to it. The main difference this time is that this was a no-string-attached request for ALL data on ALL subscribers regardless of standing or status when it came to that order. The order wasn't explicitly looking for something in particular (though it may have been intended to, but not worded as such), therefore the blanket dragnet all of a sudden covers everybody for no apparent reason at all and WOW, people's ears all of a sudden perk up.

That's the difference.
b10010011
Whats a Posting tag?
join:2004-09-07
united state

1 recommendation

b10010011

Member

Nobody is supprised...

Conservatives are just pulling out all the stops to ensure Obama is a one term President has no chance for reelection in 2016...
SunnyD
join:2009-03-20
Madison, AL

SunnyD

Member

Re: Nobody is supprised...

You do realize... you're trolling right?
b10010011
Whats a Posting tag?
join:2004-09-07
united state

1 recommendation

b10010011

Member

Re: Nobody is supprised...

Yeah, sorta... But it does kind of bug me when things that have been going on for years and or started during previous administrations are suddenly another outrageous Obama controversy.

Pureblood
'Let's Go Brandon'
Premium Member
join:2000-10-18
PorkRoll NJ
·Optimum Online
(Software) pfSense
Netgear WAX630

Pureblood

Premium Member

Re: Nobody is supprised...

said by b10010011:

Yeah, sorta... But it does kind of bug me when things that have been going on for years and or started during previous administrations are suddenly another outrageous Obama controversy.

The author of the Patriot Act said Thursday that a secret program under which the Obama administration was collecting phone records from millions of Americans is "excessive" and beyond the scope of the law (source). That would suggest the previous administration was operating within the law. BTW it don't look good when the NY Times says the administration has 'lost all credibility'.


karlmarx
join:2006-09-18
Moscow, ID

karlmarx

Member

Use VoIP

Since we know this is going on, the best solution is simply to use a VoIP phone. NOT Skype, which is a backdoor infested trap, but a smaller VoIP provider. They are too small for the government to monitor. I've worked with CALEA in the past, and as a carrier, it's a nightmare to implement (overpowering cell phones so a tap can't be detected was super annoying to implement). If you truly need to do secure communications to outside the country, you can always use a non-us based VoIP provider. If I was a terrorist, I'd be using a foreign VoIP provider, with a VPN connection to call all my friends overseas. Doesn't matter where in the world you are, they won't get any of the call logs, they can't listen in, and they won't have a record of this. What they are doing is not going to stop a 'smart' terrorist, but I don't care. I'm FAR more likely to be killed by a family member than I am by a terrorist.

guppy_fish
Premium Member
join:2003-12-09
Palm Harbor, FL

guppy_fish

Premium Member

Re: Use VoIP

said by karlmarx:

Since we know this is going on, the best solution is simply to use a VoIP phone.

You may wish to learn about the technical aspects of VOIP, its less secure than POTs ...

karlmarx
join:2006-09-18
Moscow, ID

karlmarx

Member

Re: Use VoIP

maybe you should read about how vpn actually works. a 4096 key has never been broken. If I SSL to a remote site, and run my zfone voip connection, then it's the following:

#1: Unlistenable. The conversation is encrypted, it can't be listened in on.

#2: Unfindable. They have no way of knowing that I am doing a voice conversation.

#3: Untraceable. If both sides are using zfone, there is no 'number' associated with the call. It's a site to site transfer of data over an encrypted link, with zero record of what is going on.

#4: Finally, out side of the us government control. Unless they have a trojan on our computers, there is no record of what occured.

It's not very hard, but requires planning to make it work. I've run into some pretty computer savy iraqi's, and this is well within their capabilities.

IowaCowboy
Lost in the Supermarket
Premium Member
join:2010-10-16
Springfield, MA

IowaCowboy

Premium Member

I'll stick with Verizon

I support big brother if it makes us safer.

I think we need more surveillance and not just to thwart terrorism but street crime as well.

Do you think your neighborhood drug dealer has a contract account, no. More likely he has a prepaid phone that you can activate anonymously or using a fake name. The same goes for terrorists.

If we want to thwart terrorism and street crime, then the Patriot Act should be amended so telecommunications companies and ISPs have to obtain, verify, and record the identity of anyone activating a line of service.

Surveillance is good in civil cases as well (such as fighting staged slip n' falls) or in divorce cases (like a well known golfer's calls to his mistresses). Divorce lawyers love phone records.

I would like to get a camera system for my car because I've been in enough accidents to justify the cost (all but one I was not at fault for).
Wilsdom
join:2009-08-06

Wilsdom

Member

Re: I'll stick with Verizon

Why not just move to North Korea or maybe China? It's going to take awhile before the Western countries can fill your needs, and let's face it, they'll probably never be as good.

IowaCowboy
Lost in the Supermarket
Premium Member
join:2010-10-16
Springfield, MA

IowaCowboy

Premium Member

Re: I'll stick with Verizon

It's not just terrorism we need to fight, we also need to fight crime.

I was at a Walgreens last night and I'm hoping there were surveillance cameras in the parking lot because there was a domestic disturbance in the parking lot and the victim had a kid with her.

All we were able to give the cops was a partial plate number and a general description of the vehicle.

Everybody seems to hate the police until they are a victim of crime and then the police can be your best friend. When I was in a car accident back in 2011, I was glad when the state trooper called and told me I was not at fault because the other driver was OWI.

Surveillance can be a good thing when used properly (such as putting a criminal in jail).

manfmmd
Premium Member
join:2003-01-14
Earth, TX

manfmmd

Premium Member

Re: I'll stick with Verizon

In a public parking lot, you have absolutely no expectation of privacy, same with public streets, malls, and other public venues. With a phone call, email, text, browser history, etc. there is a reasonable expectation of privacy.
CXM_Splicer
Looking at the bigger picture
Premium Member
join:2011-08-11
NYC

CXM_Splicer

Premium Member

Re: I'll stick with Verizon

Well, there should be. I think people are now realizing that there isn't.

Snakeoil
Ignore Button. The coward's feature.
Premium Member
join:2000-08-05
united state

Snakeoil to manfmmd

Premium Member

to manfmmd
said by manfmmd:

In a public parking lot, you have absolutely no expectation of privacy, same with public streets, malls, and other public venues. With a phone call, email, text, browser history, etc. there is a reasonable expectation of privacy.

I agree, in public locations there should be either no expectation of privacy, and people should be made aware of this fact. By posting signs that say the area is under video/audio surveillance.
As long as we use a smart phone or a credit card, or anything online, then there should be no expectation of privacy.

I recall getting my first work computer. I had to sign a disclosure that I understood that the IT department will upon occasion audit emails and the contents of my work computer.
IMO, Internet providers should be required to give out such a disclosure as well. Heck same with cell phone companies.
Also, places you shop should be required to have a disclosure that lists what data they collect on you while you are shopping at their stores. And the purpose of said data.
Rekrul
join:2007-04-21
Milford, CT

Rekrul to IowaCowboy

Member

to IowaCowboy
said by IowaCowboy:

Surveillance can be a good thing when used properly (such as putting a criminal in jail).

You know what would really help cut down on crime? Cameras in every room of every home (including the bathroom), being watched and recorded 24/7. I assume you'll be the first in line to volunteer for this new surveillance?
CXM_Splicer
Looking at the bigger picture
Premium Member
join:2011-08-11
NYC

CXM_Splicer

Premium Member

Re: I'll stick with Verizon

Yeah, I brought that up too but he declined to comment. It doesn't take much to realize that complete surveillance is the eventual outcome of giving up privacy. Sure they may only want to concede a little right now, but when that doesn't stop terrorism or street crime there will be calls to give up 'just a little more'. The world will never be a 'safe' place regardless of how much surveillance we allow.

IowaCowboy
Lost in the Supermarket
Premium Member
join:2010-10-16
Springfield, MA

IowaCowboy

Premium Member

Re: I'll stick with Verizon

I draw the line on putting surveillance cameras in bedrooms and bathrooms. On the other hand, a big issue with public restrooms is vandalism and drug use. Many businesses are restricting their restrooms to employees only because of liability and vandalism. I think a compromise on that would be a surveillance camera on the outside of the bathroom to monitor who is going in them but not inside the restroom itself.
kxrm
join:2002-07-18
Fort Worth, TX

kxrm

Member

Re: I'll stick with Verizon

said by IowaCowboy:

I draw the line on putting surveillance cameras in bedrooms and bathrooms. On the other hand, a big issue with public restrooms is vandalism and drug use. Many businesses are restricting their restrooms to employees only because of liability and vandalism. I think a compromise on that would be a surveillance camera on the outside of the bathroom to monitor who is going in them but not inside the restroom itself.

Why? You're not doing anything wrong anyways so who cares if they watch you while you sleep.
clone (banned)
join:2000-12-11
Portage, IN

1 recommendation

clone (banned)

Member

Re: I'll stick with Verizon

Don't bother arguing with this guy. He speaks like he actually knows something, but just regurgitates sound bites and talking points he's picked up over the years. I believe he would actually accept a government camera in his own bathroom in his home, because "establishment", that's why!
clone

clone (banned) to IowaCowboy

Member

to IowaCowboy
I'm sure glad we can count on certain members of this board to be unrelenting in their support of the government and big corporations, no matter how many times their wrongdoings come to light. I especially love reading meaningless anecdotes everyday from weak sycophants who, if it wasn't for the power they feel supporting the establishment, would never feel any power at all.

IowaCowboy
Lost in the Supermarket
Premium Member
join:2010-10-16
Springfield, MA

IowaCowboy

Premium Member

Re: I'll stick with Verizon

I, myself am a big fan of several major corporations like Best Buy, Sears, among others.

There are some companies I wish would come to town like Chick-Fil-A, Hardee's, and Taco Johns. I would not mind if US Cellular would expand into southern New England (they are in Northern New England).

Snakeoil
Ignore Button. The coward's feature.
Premium Member
join:2000-08-05
united state

Snakeoil to IowaCowboy

Premium Member

to IowaCowboy
As mentioned elsewhere.
How are crimes, murder, rape still going on in Prisons?

How was that British soldier beheaded in the streets of south London, a few weeks ago?
London has a boat load of video surveillance cameras.

So you would rather rake a big steaming sump on the graves of all of those that fought for and died for freedom, in the revolutionary war?

Just because you have a cop in every house, doesn't meant they will prevent a crime.

The government has always abused the trust and the faith the citizens place in it. We give them an inch, they take a mile.

firephoto
Truth and reality matters
Premium Member
join:2003-03-18
Brewster, WA

firephoto to IowaCowboy

Premium Member

to IowaCowboy
The problem is they don't want to thwart, they want to watch till it gets really big and swoop in right before the bad guy lights the fuse. They'll let them buy explosives, they'll let them buy vehicles, they'll let them gather all this bits and do all the planning for an attack, hell they'll even put their own guy in their sometimes to guide them along to make sure they get it right... and all for some big drama filled arrest that costs thousands of dollars vs just stopping what they've detected as being started.

And it's intentional, it continues to build this state where people always remark after the fact that "he just seemed like a normal guy".. Hey, what if the cops went up, knocked on the door, talked to him about all the shit he bought that could be used to build a bomb or poison people, filed a report, reported on it publicly, and moved on to some real crime that affects people every day instead of fighing for some career inflating case that novels are written about.
Aranarth
join:2011-11-04
Stanwood, MI

Aranarth

Member

Re: I'll stick with Verizon

That worked REALLY well for the first trade center bombing didn't it?!

Those that give up liberty for temporary safety deserve neither. (praraphrased)

I think you might want to look up terms like "SS" and "gestapo" since it is plainly obvious you don't know your history and damning the rest of us the repeat it.
CXM_Splicer
Looking at the bigger picture
Premium Member
join:2011-08-11
NYC

CXM_Splicer to IowaCowboy

Premium Member

to IowaCowboy
said by IowaCowboy:

I support big brother if it makes us safer.

I think we need more surveillance and not just to thwart terrorism but street crime as well.

Would you support it if Big Brother wanted to put a camera in your bedroom? After all, if you aren't doing anything illegal then you shouldn't have anything to hide. They will be watching it 24/7 to make sure you are safe and no one is stealing your things.
Skippy25
join:2000-09-13
Hazelwood, MO

Skippy25 to IowaCowboy

Member

to IowaCowboy
You continue on in the stupidity of "if it makes us safer" thought process.

As recommended above, if you fear so much for your safety within the confinements of our borders because we as the people have not chosen to give up all of our liberties and rights for the very little safety that it gives us in return, then feel free to move to a country that takes all your liberties and rights away to keep you all safe and secure.

KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium Member
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK

KrK to IowaCowboy

Premium Member

to IowaCowboy
You realize crime is a massively profitable business, right?

IowaCowboy
Lost in the Supermarket
Premium Member
join:2010-10-16
Springfield, MA

IowaCowboy

Premium Member

Re: I'll stick with Verizon

said by KrK:

You realize crime is a massively profitable business, right?

It's a business we'd rather do without. Some businesses we wished that did not exist would be stuff you don't want to go to like auto body shops, payday lenders, rent to own outfits, etc.

Businesses that create human suffering are not ethical businesses.

The only ones that profit from crime are attorneys, bail bondsman, prison contractors, and the ones who have to clean up the aftermath.

To sum it all up, crime causes economic loss, not profit. It runs the entire gamut from having to pay more in the supermarket (to make up for shoplifters) all the way to having to hire a professional to clean up a home after a homicide. I've got better things to spend my money on than have to take an economic hit because of a crime. Even with insurance, you still have a deductible and you get hit with higher premiums after a claim.

•••
pawpaw
join:2004-05-05
Asheville, NC

pawpaw to IowaCowboy

Member

to IowaCowboy
Tory!

KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium Member
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK

KrK

Premium Member

Use of Weapons of mass destruction isn't a big deal....

... because after all, we knew about it for a long time.

So that makes it all OK.

w0g
o.O
join:2001-08-30
Springfield, OR

w0g

Member

dudes, and this is only the beginning

check out my website man. another big time NSA whistle blower is Russell Tice, who in 2006 disclosed Electronic Brain Link, Remote Neural Monitoring, and Electronic Brain Stimulation. These technologies allow mass monitoring, once again, of all electromagnetic energy produced by the human body and brain, and thus allow the NSA/CIA/FBI to monitor your thoughts in real time with a computer system that basically can decode everything in your brain. What you see, hear, feel, think, remember, and it's also used as a tool by officials and police everywhere for covert communication. Basically, EBL allows them to beam using microwaves video, audio, feeling, memory, and other information direct to the brain and your body, and they use this like a sixth sense. The computer has very advanced AI which decodes all patterns in the brain, it categorizes intentions, past interactions, past memory, ties in in with a profile on information kept on you from other sources, ie Internet, phone records, and more. The deal is, they don't even really need to spy on your Internet activity directly, they can access and watch your brain to know exactly what you're doing and what you've done, including online, and they have access to everything in your brain: passcodes, relationships, intentions, much more. The military and NSA don't fuck around, this technology is fully deployed with both ground based and satellite based sensors, they monitor every square inch of the US. Nothing is secret, NOTHING. The only thing you got protecting you is nothing. Period. Problem with this technology is it's also used for torture and US citizens set ups, and I happen to know all about it because in 2008 they were using this shit at the Oregon State Hospital during the US DOJ investigation, and when I became a target of abuse and spying as a patient, and a major state scandal broke out, staffer Bonita Tucker sexually abusing me, lying about it, helping two patients escape, smuggling in bolt cutters and marajuanna, morphine, amphetamine, etc, I was hit hard because the state lied to try to cover all this shit up, they hid my case due to states lack of liability insurance, and they tried to murder me in August of 2008 with this technology; I was in my cell when I felt microwaves penetrate my body, I heard staff talking to me, they said "no ones ever made it this far" and "like you spy for the Statesmans Journal, DeAnn Major spys for the CIA" and "you're being set up to look psychotic" - I began to convulse from microwave exposure, and they began to simulate psychosis, mutilating my body and more. I am telling the truth, state employees and the state, possibly through the CIA/NSA/US DOJ, had access to this technology, and they used it to link up and receive all sorts of covert communication on the unit 48B. When I tried to expose it, they abused me, bullied me, I was assaulted and beat up by staff, and they set me up to look mentally ill.

here's my website about my case, I do have a donation drive, I'm trying to raise $1,000,000 for medical bills and legal expenses. A lot of the abuse was caught on recorded tape, as 48B had cameras and microphones, staff even discuss how they had technology outside of the building that enabled all this. For 5 years now I have been controlled, the CIA has control over me. yes, the NSA's Russell Tice disclosed this technology, but everyone has access to it. It's the USA's most secret weapon and spy system.

link to my site:

»www.oregonstatehospital.net/
my fundraiser: »www.gofundme.com/toddgiffen

websites about electromagnetic weapons and mind control:

»www.mindjustice.org/

»www.icomw.org/

»www.oregonstatehospital. ··· /nsa.pdf

for more info on this see story.html on my website - and also please donate! I will die without help.

this is nothing new, CIA had massive mind control experiments on the USA in the 50s/60s, they were unwittingly drugging Americas nationwide, developing mind control and mind monitoring technologies, they experimented on America to see what the effects of mass LSD use was and other shit. they had doctors everywhere working for them, even the head of the National Health Institute, the head of the American Psychiatric Association, and I mean, like doctors and spys all over. the program info is on my site, they called this MKULTRA and it was crazy. this shit is pretty much still going on today, I don't think there's a police agency or state agency that doesn't respond to a higher power in the federal government, and I personally understand that this EBL and Remote Neural Monitoring shit is their bread and butter secret program. According to the Washington Post, there are many victims of remote mind control experimentation, and I have a hunch that this EBL is being used to randomly target citizens for simulated psychosis and other experiments. They get away with it because basically, it sounds crazy and paranoid, and that's how they get away with attacks. If you cross them or get close to exposing anything, like I did, they will seriously try to kill you, or do something crazy like they are doing to me now. Just look at my website.

Washington Post Article Mind Games, 2007:

»www.washingtonpost.com/w ··· 399.html