dslreports logo
 story category
NY PSC: Verizon Lagging On DSL/Landline Repairs
Timely repair rate at seven year low...

While consumers love that Verizon invested $23 billion on fiber to the home instead of nursing copper for the next decade, that investment has come at a cost for the company's DSL and landline customers. Rural Verizon DSL customers find themselves unwanted and sold off, while others say Verizon neglects copper infrastructure upkeep and repairs in order to spend time on more profitable customers. These complaints have been particularly loud in Florida, West Virginia and in New York. A report this week out of New York puts some numbers behind these complaints:

quote:
The telecom giant failed state standards for timely phone line repairs in a record-high 61% of cases from July to September, according to a blistering new report. Worse, the company resolved just 15.5% of out-of-service gripes within 24 hours - down from 50% in the same months last year, according to research from the state Public Service Commission.
Verizon of course has promised to wire all of New York City with FiOS by 2014, but that diverted attention neglects the girl Verizon brought to the prom so to speak -- and "limits the amount it can devote to its 'legacy' copper plant," according to the NY PSC. Verizon, who has consistently denied that they're neglecting less profitable customers for more profitable ones, blames the spike in repair delays on rain...and...cellphones?
quote:
Verizon spokesman John Bonomo blamed the company's lackluster showing on unusually persistent rain this summer, as well as what he called outdated state rules set in the 1970s. When landlines conked out in the 1970s, Bonomo said, most customers offered to stay home from work the next day to wait for repair crews because they had no communication alternatives. Today, however, consumers often own cell phones, so they push back repairs a few days to accommodate their own schedules, he said.
The rain excuse doesn't appear to hold, uh, water. Looking at the actual PSC report (pdf), Verizon suffered its worst quarter in seven years of rain and non-rainy seasons alike when it comes to timely repairs. Meanwhile, Verizon fixed problems in New York State within 24 hours just 15.5% of the time -- down from 50% one year earlier (cellphones existed in 2008, right?). Verizon serves 5.7 million access lines from 539 central offices, and according to the PSC, did far worse in upstate NY than in NYC, though Brooklyn and The Bronx also fared badly.

Like AT&T, Verizon generally doesn't think that 24 hour turnaround repair requirements are particularly fair, and some states are tougher than others. Connecticut gives a carrier 24 hours to resolve a complaint on a shot clock that doesn't stop for nights and weekends. New York's does (last we checked), though Verizon's been trying to change the metric for years, going so far as to try and get the shot clock to officially start at the date and time of the scheduled appointment.

Of course the PSC has been pushing Verizon to improve performance for just as long, and keep in mind that all the while, Verizon has continually raised rates on most copper-based services despite largely fixed costs. So what's with the recent drop in repair rates? If you listen to Verizon employees, customers and regulators, Verizon's simply hanging up on less profitable, mostly rural regions. Markets who find themselves ignored when they call for repairs (like upstate New York) aren't part of Verizon's new equation.

view:
topics flat nest 

jackripdsl
@windomnet.com

jackripdsl

Anon

24 hr from when

well that makes sense kind of. Customer calls in Monday phone out. Tells Verissson to come out Friday. We duh it took longer than 24 hrs to fix. Probabl not what is going on. Qwest takes 72 hours here one or the other.

fifty nine
join:2002-09-25
Sussex, NJ

fifty nine

Member

Re: 24 hr from when

Huh

Outside wiring doesn't need to be done on an appointment basis.

Years ago when I called Verizon about my landline they never had to come to my house, just up on the pole.

Karl Bode
News Guy
join:2000-03-02

Karl Bode

News Guy

Re: 24 hr from when

A couple years ago Verizon was trying to argue that the 24 hour shot clock should begin when the appointment is scheduled for....
dynodb
Premium Member
join:2004-04-21
Minneapolis, MN

dynodb to fifty nine

Premium Member

to fifty nine
said by fifty nine:

Huh

Outside wiring doesn't need to be done on an appointment basis.

Years ago when I called Verizon about my landline they never had to come to my house, just up on the pole.
That's often the case, but they don't necessarily know whether they'll need access to the premise until they're already out on the repair.

ather than go out and troubleshoot only to find they need to get in your house when you're not there, they'll usually want to go out on the repair when they have access so they don't waste time and money on redundant dispatches.

ropeguru
Premium Member
join:2001-01-25
Mechanicsville, VA

ropeguru

Premium Member

Re: 24 hr from when

said by dynodb:

said by fifty nine:

Huh

Outside wiring doesn't need to be done on an appointment basis.

Years ago when I called Verizon about my landline they never had to come to my house, just up on the pole.
That's often the case, but they don't necessarily know whether they'll need access to the premise until they're already out on the repair.

ather than go out and troubleshoot only to find they need to get in your house when you're not there, they'll usually want to go out on the repair when they have access so they don't waste time and money on redundant dispatches.
Why would they need to get into the house? Especially if the customer does not have an inside wiring protection plan. Their responsibility ends at the NID which is OUTSIDE the house and they are the first to remind the customer of that when there is an issue. They can troubleshoot all the way up to the house without any type of appointment whatsoever.
dynodb
Premium Member
join:2004-04-21
Minneapolis, MN

dynodb

Premium Member

Re: 24 hr from when

said by ropeguru:

Why would they need to get into the house? Especially if the customer does not have an inside wiring protection plan. Their responsibility ends at the NID which is OUTSIDE the house and they are the first to remind the customer of that when there is an issue. They can troubleshoot all the way up to the house without any type of appointment whatsoever.
The NID isn't always on the outside of the house. My house is old and what passes for a NID is in the basement.

There's also the question of what happens when a tech goes out, finds the trouble to be inside wiring, and leaves. If the customer isn't home they're often going to question whether the tech was there or actually did anything regardless of what a rep told them over the phone. That can lead to a demand for another dispatch.

ropeguru
Premium Member
join:2001-01-25
Mechanicsville, VA

1 edit

ropeguru

Premium Member

Re: 24 hr from when

said by dynodb:

said by ropeguru:

Why would they need to get into the house? Especially if the customer does not have an inside wiring protection plan. Their responsibility ends at the NID which is OUTSIDE the house and they are the first to remind the customer of that when there is an issue. They can troubleshoot all the way up to the house without any type of appointment whatsoever.
The NID isn't always on the outside of the house. My house is old and what passes for a NID is in the basement.

There's also the question of what happens when a tech goes out, finds the trouble to be inside wiring, and leaves. If the customer isn't home they're often going to question whether the tech was there or actually did anything regardless of what a rep told them over the phone. That can lead to a demand for another dispatch.
Somehow I doubt all those pushed out appointments had their NID inside. My guess is that percentage is really low.

As to the issue of if the problem is inside.. That is why they have those service tags they leave on your door stating they were out to fix your problem and found the issue to be with the inside wiring or whatever the problem was. Then if you do not have a protection plan you can decide if you want to pay them to fix the issue.

They have done the service tag thing for years and only recently seemed to have stopped. Why is it that it worked well for so long but all of a sudden now it is an issue. Oh, that's right, they want all the money in their CEO's pockets instead of taking care of their infrastructure.

David
Premium Member
join:2002-05-30
Granite City, IL

David

Premium Member

Re: 24 hr from when

said by ropeguru:

[Somehow I doubt all those pushed out appointments had their NID inside. My guess is that percentage is really low.

Actually, it's higher than you think! I constantly run into the problem of the NID is in the house/garage/basement/etc. I have ran into it quite a bit in all of AT&T's legacy areas.
nonymous (banned)
join:2003-09-08
Glendale, AZ

nonymous (banned)

Member

Re: 24 hr from when

said by David:

said by ropeguru:

[Somehow I doubt all those pushed out appointments had their NID inside. My guess is that percentage is really low.

Actually, it's higher than you think! I constantly run into the problem of the NID is in the house/garage/basement/etc. I have ran into it quite a bit in all of AT&T's legacy areas.
Or in a backyard with unknown dogs so does a tech want to rish getting eaten?
soothsayer15
join:2002-03-01
Irving, TX

1 edit

soothsayer15 to ropeguru

Member

to ropeguru
said by ropeguru:

said by dynodb:

said by fifty nine:

Huh

Outside wiring doesn't need to be done on an appointment basis.

Years ago when I called Verizon about my landline they never had to come to my house, just up on the pole.
That's often the case, but they don't necessarily know whether they'll need access to the premise until they're already out on the repair.

ather than go out and troubleshoot only to find they need to get in your house when you're not there, they'll usually want to go out on the repair when they have access so they don't waste time and money on redundant dispatches.
Why would they need to get into the house? Especially if the customer does not have an inside wiring protection plan. Their responsibility ends at the NID which is OUTSIDE the house and they are the first to remind the customer of that when there is an issue. They can troubleshoot all the way up to the house without any type of appointment whatsoever.
A lot of times, phone issues are caused by inside wiring. I'm not saying all, not even most but a lot are. People think that the phone company is responsible for the inside wiring when in reality the customer is.

It also costs money for the tech to go out there. The company pays his hourly salary, the gas for him to get there in addition to whatever supplies the tech might need. Sometimes things also get lost in translation so the tech's trouble report may not accurately describe the issue. People describe things in terms they are understand. Everyone can complain about how things should be, but field techs have to deal with the job how it is and not how they wish it was.

FFH5
Premium Member
join:2002-03-03
Tavistock NJ

1 edit

FFH5 to ropeguru

Premium Member

to ropeguru
said by ropeguru:

Why would they need to get into the house? Especially if the customer does not have an inside wiring protection plan. Their responsibility ends at the NID which is OUTSIDE the house and they are the first to remind the customer of that when there is an issue. They can troubleshoot all the way up to the house without any type of appointment whatsoever.
And almost all the testing can be done centrally from a computer to test up to the NID. In fact, if you use the internet, you can initiate that computerized testing yourself from Verizon's web site.

I used that feature last year. But it still took them 2 days to get someone to fix the local cross connect box, even after the system identified the problem source.

Problem was a worker had been in there earlier and pulled several connections just loose enough to cause noise.

Karl Bode
News Guy
join:2000-03-02

Karl Bode

News Guy

Re: 24 hr from when

Problem was a worker had been in there earlier and pulled several connections just loose enough to cause noise.
Dealing with Verizon in NYC in coordinating frame relay installs for a law firm, I can't tell you how many times a call to fix something resulting in something getting "jiggled" so that we needed a dozen follow up calls...

ropeguru
Premium Member
join:2001-01-25
Mechanicsville, VA

ropeguru

Premium Member

Re: 24 hr from when

said by Karl Bode:

Problem was a worker had been in there earlier and pulled several connections just loose enough to cause noise.
Dealing with Verizon in NYC in coordinating frame relay installs for a law firm, I can't tell you how many times a call to fix something resulting in something getting "jiggled" so that we needed a dozen follow up calls...
But in today's response by Veriaon, that would be attributed to the customer not being home for the service call. Even though it was on outside issue.
ropeguru

ropeguru to FFH5

Premium Member

to FFH5
said by FFH5:

said by ropeguru:

Why would they need to get into the house? Especially if the customer does not have an inside wiring protection plan. Their responsibility ends at the NID which is OUTSIDE the house and they are the first to remind the customer of that when there is an issue. They can troubleshoot all the way up to the house without any type of appointment whatsoever.
And almost all the testing can be done centrally from a computer to test up to the NID. In fact, if you use the internet, you can initiate that computerized testing yourself from Verizon's web site.

I used that feature last year. But it still took them 2 days to get someone to fix the local POP connection, even after the system identified the problem source.

Problem was a worker had been in there earlier and pulled several connections just loose enough to cause noise.
I completely agree with you. In all the service issues I have had over the years with various phone companies I have always determined first if it was my issue or on their side of the NID before calling. Anytime they scheduled a service call I did not need to be home and the field tech would leave a service call tag on my door with his info, date, time, and what was found. Whether he was able to fix or if it had to be turned over to a different group.

So why is it now a big issue of someone not being home in order to check their line?

FFH5
Premium Member
join:2002-03-03
Tavistock NJ

1 recommendation

FFH5

Premium Member

Re: 24 hr from when

said by ropeguru:

In all the service issues I have had over the years with various phone companies I have always determined first if it was my issue or on their side of the NID before calling.
I still have a telephone test set(from years & years ago) I use to hook at the NID to make sure the problem isn't house wiring before I call.
WhatNow
Premium Member
join:2009-05-06
Charlotte, NC

WhatNow

Premium Member

Re: 24 hr from when

It is getting better but many phone customer can not check anything about their phone service but do no call the power company when a light burns out in the table lamp. Except for customers that had their service put in more then 20 years ago which may be true in older city areas the NID has a place to separate the inside from outside or the regulated from the unregulated. The biggest problem is areas where everybody has a fence and the drop connection is also back property.
From friends I can tell you the phone companies are cutting back on their repair forces and do not give the techs time or support to fix problems in the cable. In most cases they will let the cable get worse until they don't have any other options. They spend a fortune doing work arounds over several years as the section of bad cable continues to fail instead of repairing the damage. Repairs were made as soon as possible on paper insulated pairs but the phone companies have gotten spoiled with PIC pairs because they can ignore small problems in a cable until they no other option. If the PUC let them get away with bad repair times the plant just get worse.

If the phone companies would keep the plant in good repair they would save money.

Corehhi
join:2002-01-28
Bluffton, SC

Corehhi to jackripdsl

Member

to jackripdsl

Well it makes some sense

You guys probably aren't old enough to remember cable companies and ATT holding you hostage for a day. You would be told "someone will be there some time between 8 am and 12 or 12 to 4PM." Killed an entire day to have any work done. Best part was if they had to come back. LOL.

Jerm
join:2000-04-10
Richland, WA

Jerm

Member

Re: Well it makes some sense

Uhh, well Charter still does that here! You get a 4 hour block of time, and most of the time they miss that window...

mking128
join:2005-08-10
Whitestone, NY

mking128

Member

News not a surprise to us at all

Wow, it didn't surprise me one bit. Whether it's voice or DSL repairs in NYC now take longer, as much as 48 to 72 hours not counting the weekend hours, especially if a field dispatch is involved.

Neighborhood has been wired up mostly for FIOS in the past 4 months but the services still hasn't roll out - and the local Verizon storefront on Main Street don't have a clue. Their last guestimate has been off target for 3 months now.

fifty nine
join:2002-09-25
Sussex, NJ

1 recommendation

fifty nine

Member

Re: News not a surprise to us at all

They need to change the name of the company to verizoff not verizon.

KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium Member
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK
Netgear WNDR3700v2
Zoom 5341J

KrK

Premium Member

Re: News not a surprise to us at all

said by fifty nine:

They need to change the name of the company to verizoff not verizon.
That gave me a chuckle.
jfpatrick
join:2002-03-15
Leominster, MA

1 edit

jfpatrick

Member

No surprise...

Had an outage last Spring, 33 days with no phone (static, hum), but DSL was working. A complaint to the MA DPU "pushed things" along. Phone went out again last night....

A Tech showed up, and the DSL signal is rock solid, voice signal has a grounding problem. After futzing with things, the tech left, not before saying the only way to fix it is to goto FIOS, as they will not replace a bad copper line, period. And was told if I didn't like it, here's the supervisor's number....

Smith6612
MVM
join:2008-02-01
North Tonawanda, NY
·Charter
Ubee EU2251
Ubiquiti UAP-IW-HD
Ubiquiti UniFi AP-AC-HD

1 edit

Smith6612

MVM

Re: No surprise...

A friend of mine has had issues with their phone lines going down as well. Seems like once in a while, their phone line will go down for days on end and they have to rely on cellular phone service which is 1 bar EDGE at best. They've called Verizon out several times within the past year or two about this issue. Verizon has stated though that they should have never been connected out as far as they were from the remote (several miles of wire, no load coils), and were really on some sort of "extension" system. The problem, despite it taking Verizon days to fix it has always been at a small junction box connecting the aerial cable from the poles down the road to the underground copper drops that they and their neighbors rely on. Their phone line has been much better since Verizon said to them that they believe they've fixed the issue with their line as well as the others on the street seeing the same issue.

Now, in this case, every Verizon line on the street connected through the small junction box (really a pedestal) would have a dead silent line and calling a line coming from that pedestal would result in a busy signal. No signs would show up with the phone service going out such as static or bad audio. It would just go out without warning. Ironically though, my friend also has the option of another telephone company, Frontier who has an aerial copper drop running past their home. People across the street as well as next door to them have Frontier service if they didn't choose Verizon.

In the past though, Verizon has always been quick about getting things online. At the Verizon location, we've only had two outages. The first "outage" prevented us from receiving calls but allowed us to make outgoing. This meant that our Answering machine or for that matter, no one ever answered and on the other end of the call, the call appeared to be answered. I have two Verizon field techs in my area. I let them know about my phone trouble at 6PM at night, and they fixed it first thing the next morning for us (bad line card). Now, three years later Buffalo is hit with the October Storm and we lose our phone line a day after the storm hit. Despite other parts of the area having much worse damage to the system than my area did, our line was back online within 12 hours along with DSL.

I don't know how Verizon is now since I haven't needed them for anything in over a year, but I wouldn't doubt they're abandoning the copper network. I'm lucky to have new copper (I suppose) out where I am. Should hold up for a while.
patcat88
join:2002-04-05
Jamaica, NY

patcat88

Member

Re: No surprise...

Cheap bastards put you on DLCs.
tmc8080
join:2004-04-24
Brooklyn, NY

1 recommendation

tmc8080

Member

repair techs laid off

how many thousands of the line repair techs did Verizon lay off this year?

how much did Verizon's services INCREASE this year?

we all know that the state PUC's have been mostly defanged as a result of the creative lobbying efforts in state houses and in the federal government because of the promise of FIOS FTTP. even these promises are getting broken so it may just be time to buy some dentures and go to town on telcos again for forgetting the role taxes play in the collection department.. it's those taxes and fees which are supposed to keep the telcos honest.. well, they're not.. so time to get to work. fines, rebates, and free service to the consumer must be layed for doing a bad job. bye bye cost savings! POOF! act like former MA BELL, get punished like former MA BELL.

tim_k
Buttons, Bows, Beamer, Shadow, Kasey
Premium Member
join:2002-02-02
Stewartstown, PA

tim_k

Premium Member

Re: repair techs laid off

said by tmc8080:

how many thousands of the line repair techs did Verizon lay off this year?
We're hearing a lot more layoffs are in order. Don't expect things to get better. It almost seems like they want to sell the whole damned network.
layoffsatVZ
join:2009-12-31
united state

layoffsatVZ

Member

Re: repair techs laid off

I am in the southeast pa, and now the latest is 700 techs and 28 management by 1st quarter 2010 in PA and NJ, anyone else here this?

Eagles1221
join:2009-04-29
Vincentown, NJ

1 recommendation

Eagles1221

Member

yup yup

having have my Business Class DSL (cough cough) 768/6MB $179.00 a month link be down 31 days out of 40 I can agree. They blamed DSLAM equipment. The kiddie preschool across the road is on 128/768 DSL lite and they never had issues. There were DSL2+ ports in the CO but they wouldn't move me. Notice I had 2 lines that I paid 179.00 each for.

The tech folks promised FiOS would fix this. Where the heck is FiOS?

I'd pay 1,000 a month fot 16 IPs and 100mbit sym line. I pay TWC that for 10Mbit fiber now. I'm 2 miles from the CO. You'd think they'd lay fiber for a business if the business pays premium rates.
hottboiinnc4
ME
join:2003-10-15
Cleveland, OH

hottboiinnc4

Member

DSL is Regulated?

Hmmm...since when does DSL come with a regulation attached to it? Data services are not regulated thus, the PSC can NOT tell VZ when it has to correct the outage.

Pathfinder5
Dazed Confused
Premium Member
join:2000-03-26
New York, NY

Pathfinder5

Premium Member

"Shot clock?"

Unless things have changed drastically in the 3 years since I retired, the OOS>24 clock starts when the customer calls in and ends when the job is completed. No stopping for nights or weekends. Moreover. If the customer calls in more than once than each report has its own OOS>24 scoring.
Most states don't count subsequent reports but NY does.
The measure you may be referring to is the "Stop clock' which is used to measure the time to commitment when a customer calls in.
That is stopped when the local repair office is closed. Such as after 8PM or on Sundays.

Still, if those numbers are correct they are abysmal. The objective was no more than 15% OOS>24.
BTW. I worked in Manhattan and teh cellphone argument is legitimate there. It's tough to measure GT>24 when a customer calls in on a Friday and tells you they won't be home until Tuesday.
elray
join:2000-12-16
Santa Monica, CA

elray

Member

DSL v. Landline Repair

Both Verizon & AT&T have downsized their repair fleet to the point that a typical repair, required after the first rain of the season, is scheduled a week out in Socal.

But that's not the half of it. With Verizon, if you have VZ DSL, just getting VZ Online to get VZ-the-Telco to dispatch can take an Act of Congress, and they deliberately obfuscate which company you're dealing with when you call for repair.

But I can only complain so much... at less than $10.00/month net for basic DSL (Thanks, Ivan!), we easily afford to buy basic cable modem service from TWC, and we find ourselves never annoyed by either company's miserable repair service.

Dread
On course
Premium Member
join:2005-02-28
Bronx, NY

Dread

Premium Member

No surprise

Verizon sucks, ask Bobcat79 See Profile

OblioA
@verizon.net

OblioA

Anon

Verizon DSL support FAILS!

When my DSL 'goes out' because of a big thunderstorm, and then I call Verizon to make them aware, I don't need some hard-to-understand Indian dude asking me what friggin' OS my computer has and if I have filters on my lines. Idiots!

Verizon's 'generic script' oriented technical support FAILS!

WiseOldBear
Laissez les bons temps rouler!
Premium Member
join:2001-11-25
Litchfield Park, AZ
Motorola MB8600
Synology RT2600ac

WiseOldBear

Premium Member

Simple Really-Verizon Business Plan Writtem by Atilla

Verizon is the personification of scuzzy, rapacious, jackbooted corporation. Those who choose to do business with them should realize they will be hurt by the experience. Those forced to do business with them have my sympathy.

MadMANN3
Premium Member
join:2005-08-19

MadMANN3

Premium Member

RAIN?? ROFLMAO!!

Since when did rain stop phone companies? Maybe lightning storms...but RAIN??? That's friggin' hilarious!

I can't believe PA isn't on that report. Verizon shows the same lackluster service here. Comcast & Service Electric are busier than ever taking their business and residential phone accounts from them. Comcast is there same day or within 24 hours for indivudual no dial tone calls and SECV is usually out next day. Oh, and both of those cable companies work in the rain. I can also tell you from experience that even people with cell phones will want their landline service repaired ASAP. They have a landline for a reason, which is usually so they don't burn their cell minutes. It seems Verizon is full of excuses only a naive mother could believe.

Right across the street from me, there is a feeder 500 pair cable that is losing its lashing. It gets further down the line every month. Soon, it will get to the point when the cable will be reachable from the ground. I called them about it 6 times in four years with no response. The neighbor who feeds off of the pole where the lashing is broken had a tech there last summer for a service call. I even mentioned to the tech that I called about it a bunch of times. "Ok, yeah. . .I saw that. . .I will open a ticket for it." Fast forward over a year later. . .well, here we are.

Additionally, there are fallen trees from last summer still hanging on their feeders and fiber. I can name three places where the lines are about 2 feet off of the ground from it. Oh well. Let them get fined by the township once people get tired of seeing it.

I don't know how many times I have also seen their house lines get knocked out by big rigs and they tell their customers that they will be out in a week to put it back up. One elderly lady was told, "Just pick it up and coil it in your yard so other cars don't run it over." (Wtf?) It must be emberassing to be a phone agent for a company whose SOP is to be out in a week and telling customers to pick up fallen cables by themselves. Actually, the only word I can think of to describe Verizon as a land provider is "pathetic".

brooklynman4
join:2004-09-07
Brewster, NY

brooklynman4

Member

Its true

I had aproblem with my dsl once every time it rained the signal would lose after the tech looking at the copper lines he came back and told me there really bad so he said get cable in stead lol.I believe its all true.
sbcretired
join:2006-01-07
Scottville, MI

2 edits

sbcretired

Member

What a waste by ATT

Ive been retired since 2004, but the company would spend the first 24hrs having clerks test, retest, do everything in their power to get the customer (calling them at their work-mentioning a BILL to fix inside wire issues) to cancel the trouble report. Or wait for the "computerized line test" to say the line was "Test OK" so it could be closed without a dispatch out.
Another bad, when a customer calls in, its all voice recognition or push 1 for this and 2 for that. No human interaction. If someone were to be on the other end, and hear the "humm or static" instead of a machine, the report would have been routed to outside dispatch immediately.
ATT or Verizon would rather spend millions on testing trouble to death, not fixing it.
Customers often just give up, and go cellular or VOIP because of the BIG BOYS inability to handle their problems.