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Netflix Continues to Blame Verizon for Streaming Issues
by Karl Bode 02:13PM Monday Jul 14 2014
The war of words between Netflix and Verizon continued last week, with Verizon announcing they'd conducted a thorough review of their network and found absolutely no possible cause for the Netflix streaming issues their customers are experiencing. In short, Verizon says the congestion isn't their fault, instead, blaming Netflix's choice of transit partners. In contrast, Netflix and transit companies say ISPs like Verizon are intentionally letting edge peering points get congested to force Netflix to pay direct interconnection fees.

Netflix has since responded, issuing this statement to media outlets:
quote:
"We'd like to thank Verizon for laying out the issue so nicely. Congestion at the interconnection point is controlled by ISPs like Verizon. When Verizon fails to upgrade those interconnections, consumers get a lousy experience despite paying for more than enough bandwidth to enjoy high-quality Netflix video. That's why Netflix is calling for strong net neutrality that covers the interconnection needed for consumers to get the quality of INTER-net they pay for."
Last week Netflix CEO Reed Hastings also sat down with the Washington Post, taking aim at ISPs and warning that Internet video transmission will become as rancorous an issue as retransmission fee disputes:
quote:
Then the danger is that it becomes like retransmission fees, which 20 years ago started as something little and today is huge, with blackouts and shutdowns during negotiations. Conceptually, if they can charge a little, than they can charge a lot, because they are the only ones serving the Comcast consumers. Think of Comcast, post-Time Warner merger. Overnight, they get 40 percent of U.S. households with broadband. When DSL fades, we think that’s more like 50 percent of U.S. households, which is a lot of market power.
It's worth noting that while both sides claim they're in the right, neither Netflix of Verizon has actually revealed raw data performance proving such. Regulators have insisted they're going to take a look to see if there's anti-competitive behavior afoot, but that's likely to be a long and winding road to the truth. Meanwhile, Netflix's latest streaming rankings show that Verizon FiOS and Verizon DSL Netflix streaming performance is worse than ever, despite the interconnection agreement deal between the companies signed last April.

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topics flat nest 

IPPlanMan
Holy Cable Modem Batman

join:2000-09-20
Washington, DC
kudos:1

6 recommendations

Figures...

Despite Verizon's pushback and pretzel twisting, the truth is coming out. Thanks Netflix!

nothing00

join:2001-06-10
Centereach, NY

6 recommendations

Re: Figures...

Yeah, Verizon's statement last week was really an amazingly transparent smoke and mirrors attempt. Glad they were directly called out on it.

Plus One

@50.182.54.x
said by IPPlanMan:

Despite Verizon's pushback and pretzel twisting, the truth is coming out. Thanks Netflix!

LOL. Netflix is as likely lying as is Verizon. Until Netflix turns over their network statistics to a 3rd party, we shouldn't trust them either.
sides14

join:2007-11-29
Glendale, AZ

4 recommendations

Re: Figures...

Verizons release last week said it was all about peering (34% egress utilzization and 100% ingress utilization). That is a Verizon issue since they haven't upgraded their peering agreement.
AVonGauss
Premium
join:2007-11-01
Boynton Beach, FL

2 recommendations

Re: Figures...

Not really, peering points - like arguments - have at least two sides.

nothing00

join:2001-06-10
Centereach, NY

1 recommendation

Re: Figures...

said by AVonGauss:

Not really, peering points - like arguments - have at least two sides.

Good point. When is Verizon going to pay for Cogent's upgrades? Verizon's numbers show that they're clearly a subscriber to Cogent's network.
AVonGauss
Premium
join:2007-11-01
Boynton Beach, FL

Re: Figures...

Unless we're looking at different "charts", Verizon's numbers do not detail Cogent specifically. Regardless, I'd be willing to bet a very large sum of cash that Cogent sends Verizon far more data than Verizon sends Cogent.
smcallah

join:2004-08-05
Home

Re: Figures...

And I would bet no. Lest we forget that Verizon runs the former UUnet, AS701, which still has tons of business customers, hosting providers, etc on it.

UUnet has always been a major "exporter" of traffic, because they have always had the big name customers on their service.
BiggA

join:2005-11-23
EARTH
Exactly. Verizon's own report used misleading words to make it sound like it was Netflix's fault, but when you read the report, it's pretty clear that it's interconnection- and we know Verizon was the one holding up upgrades to those...
existenz

join:2014-02-12
kudos:2

1 recommendation

The bottom line is that Netflix performs well on many ISPs and not on others. ISPs can choose not to optimize network/peers to certain services but then they are telling their customers that they (ISP) will choose what sites will work or not. They may as well come out with a statement that they will not help video services compete with their own offerings and get it over with.

pumpkinhead7

join:2002-06-14
Clarksburg, WV
Reviews:
·Time Warner Cable

1 recommendation

I disagree, Netflix has a company history of being honest and open. Verizon as well as Comcast etc have a company history of being dishonest, and self serving.

I'm not saying Netflix isn't out to make a buck, but I think they are a much more honest and honorable company that Verizon/Comcast any day.
elray

join:2000-12-16
Santa Monica, CA
Reviews:
·Time Warner Cable
·EarthLink

Re: Figures...

said by pumpkinhead7:

I disagree, Netflix has a company history of being honest and open.

Honest and open?

Tell that to the DVD subscribers who found themselves throttled.

Tell that to the California taxpayers who are told he's a Republican.
rebus9

join:2002-03-26
Tampa Bay
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
·Bright House
said by Plus One :

said by IPPlanMan:

Despite Verizon's pushback and pretzel twisting, the truth is coming out. Thanks Netflix!

LOL. Netflix is as likely lying as is Verizon. Until Netflix turns over their network statistics to a 3rd party, we shouldn't trust them either.

In what context? Everyone-- including Verizon-- knows Verizon is letting their peers saturate, and we all know why.

anon123

@50.170.133.x
Well if it weren't for the fact that it's not just Netflix... Other ISP's don't seem to have anywhere near the issues with streaming sites. ISP's made their beds when they decided to make sure people have more than a dozen times less upload than download and thus make everyone download from a remote site (client-server) instead of using P2P services architecture.
dfxmatt

join:2007-08-21
Evanston, IL
the usual people who trot out to defend verizon are noticeably quiet today. surprise surprise.

Plus One

@50.182.54.x

Re: Figures...

said by dfxmatt:

the usual people who trot out to defend verizon are noticeably quiet today. surprise surprise.

»Re: Figures...
AVonGauss
Premium
join:2007-11-01
Boynton Beach, FL

1 edit
Since I'm probably on "your list", its also possible that its less a desire to defend Verizon (or Comcast) but rather a desire to dispel the junk propaganda NetFlix has been putting out more so the last six months...

Plus One

@50.182.54.x

Re: Figures...

said by AVonGauss:

Since I'm probably on "your list", its also possible that its less a desire to defend Verizon (or Comcast) but rather a desire to dispel the junk propaganda NetFlix has been putting out more so the last six months...

+1
And the propaganda put out by dslreports.

anonomeX

@71.207.157.x

Darn...

where's a video rental store when you need one?!
Bob61571

join:2008-08-08
Washington, IL

Re: Darn...

Family Video, 775 stores in 19 states, largest chain still left out there.

»www.familyvideo.com/about_us.php

anonomeX

@71.207.157.x

Re: Darn...

I never much liked the chain stores. The mom&pop store I joined back in the '80s called it quits 20+ years ago (killed by the big chains, I guess), before DVDs even made the scene. I still have the Laserdisc player I bought there... don't much use it, of course.

I miss that little shop.

buzz_4_20

join:2003-09-20
Limestone, ME

1 edit

So here we are

Both companies waving their d**ks around and only customers are suffering.
elefante72

join:2010-12-03
East Amherst, NY

Re: So here we are

Intercon agreement? My routes are still the same. No changes, but also no congestion PQ issues in my area.

Unless someone walks into the intercon com closet and looks at the traffic flows, or ports this is all smoke and mirrors.

We will never truly know if it's the CDN cheaping out,(somewhat likely) or Verizon standing fast at the border (very likely).

Financially speaking Verizon has the most to gain (like retrans) by forming the argument and twisting the truth. The CDN has little to gain by holding back ports, but if there is a balance contract, maybe they say no to paying and Verizon simply lets the intercon ports suck wind (VERY VERY LIKELY).

Since Verizon is an ISP and they charge out the ying yang for internet, they also have a duty to provide competent network management, and fix flows if they are getting continually throttled. Netflix provides the data, so what's next?

The $50k in in ports is mice nuts compared to the BILLIONS they are raking in.
Skippy25

join:2000-09-13
Hazelwood, MO

3 recommendations

Re: So here we are

Why pay $50k in ports when you can negotiate with a content provider to actually pay you millions?

That is quite a turnaround for the profit hungry ISP that is holding their subscribers hostage.
AVonGauss
Premium
join:2007-11-01
Boynton Beach, FL

1 recommendation

Actually, they all have a stake...

NetFlix is deploying their own CDN and hence paying transit fees directly now - the less the better from their perspective.

Transit providers are / were selling transit to NetFlix, it is to their advantage to provide the transit with the least amount of cost (i.e. paid peering).

Verizon / Comcast wouldn't mind picking up the transit business and eliminating the middle guy.

It's all about money, and like another poster already stated, its the customers that are the ones getting jerked around...
smcallah

join:2004-08-05
Home

Re: So here we are

Please don't lose the definition of "transit" here. "Transit" is using a network to reach other networks, ie. transiting UUnet to reach Level(3)'s customers and Cogent's customers and others.

Netflix is paying Comcast to reach only Comcast's customers. That is not transit, the endpoint is Comcast. That is "local routes only" peering, Netflix isn't trying to reach other ISP's through Comcast.

ieolus
Support The Clecs

join:2001-06-19
Danbury, CT

Re: So here we are

Is he losing the definition of transit, or deliberately misusing it?
--
"Speak for yourself "Chadmaster" - lesopp

Anno

@68.62.236.x

1 recommendation

said by elefante72:

Intercon agreement? My routes are still the same. No changes, but also no congestion PQ issues in my area.

Unless someone walks into the intercon com closet and looks at the traffic flows, or ports this is all smoke and mirrors.

We will never truly know if it's the CDN cheaping out,(somewhat likely) or Verizon standing fast at the border (very likely).

Financially speaking Verizon has the most to gain (like retrans) by forming the argument and twisting the truth. The CDN has little to gain by holding back ports, but if there is a balance contract, maybe they say no to paying and Verizon simply lets the intercon ports suck wind (VERY VERY LIKELY).

Since Verizon is an ISP and they charge out the ying yang for internet, they also have a duty to provide competent network management, and fix flows if they are getting continually throttled. Netflix provides the data, so what's next?

The $50k in in ports is mice nuts compared to the BILLIONS they are raking in.

I have access to a few peering locations for a few providers, Comcast, BHN and AT&T included and let me just say it's a sad state.

I won't single any provider out specifically but in some cases.

CDN side 40GE, ISP, 10GE
CDN 100GE, ISP 10GE

In other cases it's:
CDN 10GE, ISP 10GE, CDN willing to give another port, ISP wants to be paid for it.

Situations of course exist where in almost all of these money changes hands but in my opinion the ISP should be the one paying, they are the ones selling "internet" to customers, when they don't have internet, they have "intranet". Comcast doesn't reach globally, Level 3 and Cogentco do. Without these peers these residential ISPs have NOTHING to offer customers. Just like Comcast and others want Netflix to pay them for putting BW load on the residential network, I think the peers are fair if they charged the ISP for the same thing, but instead it's other way around and even if the tables turned the customers end up paying more. The fact is in a lot of cases the CDN are willing to provide the links/connections free and the ISPs still don't want, they want money... CDN makes money from the content owner.

Now yes, sometimes they double dip too but who doesn't these days.

Verizon is the guilty one here. They blame netflix for who they pick as a provider but netflix simply picked a global provider for simplicity and costs. Does Verizon offer global service? Nope! Who would you pick if you had a global company? a global provider or 20 small ones that want to be greedy?

chip89
Premium
join:2012-07-05
Independence, OH
Reviews:
·Cox HSI

Re: So here we are

yep even Sprint is better outside of being unlimited since they are a Ter 1 nexflix can get to there phone with out paying since it will stay on the Sprint network. With Verizon once nexflix gets to Verizon from the Ter 1 Pay up, if you want it to get to the phone!

tshirt
Premium
join:2004-07-11
Snohomish, WA
kudos:5
Reviews:
·Comcast
said by elefante72:

The $50k in in ports is mice nuts compared to the BILLIONS they are raking in.

As compared to Netflix with 45 million streaming customers @ $10 a month(what they are aiming for) =$450 million per month= $5.4 billion a year....
Neither of these companies are non-profits, both needs to pay their share of the costs.

ieolus
Support The Clecs

join:2001-06-19
Danbury, CT

Re: So here we are

Oh, I didn't realize that Netflix can leverage their customers to force Verizon to pay THEM more money for acceptable service. Good to know.
--
"Speak for yourself "Chadmaster" - lesopp
brianiscool

join:2000-08-16
Miami, FL
kudos:1

Netflix

They should just say pay us $5 million a year and we will stream to you
with no problems.

aaronwt
Premium
join:2004-11-07
Woodbridge, VA

Netflix streaming has been superb for me lately..

on FiOS. I've been getting SuperHD within a few seconds to 30 seconds from the time I start streaming a title. I've been getting SuperHD any time of the day, any day of the week lately.

•••
O1OOO1O

join:2005-12-23
Lewisville, TX

2 recommendations

Still a good read on this topic

»www.lightreading.com/video/ott/n···d/709829

•••••

BioGeek
Quantum-VHO7
Premium
join:2007-08-25
West Orange, NJ
Reviews:
·Verizon Wireless..
·Comcast
·Verizon FiOS

Equal Transit

I always thought the basis of Tier 1 was equal transit as an average. So... would Netflix's chosen carrier appreciate it and properly handle it if Verizon dumped the same amount of data onto their network to carry as Verizon gets from them? Wouldn't the peering point saturate the other way? Also, aren't both carriers required to participate in expanding the peering points?

Netflix's business model directly relies on the use of an infrastructure that they do not own. That is how they do business and provide content so cheaply. Comcast and Verizon have to bear the expense of maintaining a network to get data and TV to customers that Netflix rides cheap on. Now that someone wants them to pay for the nearly free ride they get upset. Much the same way that new VOIP offerings were so much cheaper and darn near free compared to standard phone systems. It is easy to be cheap when you do NONE of the work and provide NONE of the infrastructure required to get to your clients. Instead they poach customers from those providers using the low rates and then wonder why the providers come after them for money.

Granted, they are both in a money and profit grab right now. Just remember that Netflix already pays one provider to get the data around the nation which does indicate that they will pay for transit. The issue comes from them offsetting the balance in the force by pumping so much data one way. Sure, the customers of Verizon are asking for this data to come to them. Let me ask you this: Would you be asking to stream this data if Netflix didn't exist or if they were $100 a month? I doubt it.

Verizon has the issue of the backbone of their network and the client side FiOS/DSL network to worry about. Netflix still wants to provide content for $10 a month or so and get customers. As much as the interest align in terms of the mutual need to satisfy the customers, they are also at odds in terms of who profits at what expense to the other.

They are both wrong in their own ways and need to just kiss and make up already. The net needs to be neutral but that doesn't mean the companies that made it or run it need to take a beating from the ones that don't. Likely this means that Netflix's transit provider and Verizon will need to come to a better agreement as well.
qworster

join:2001-11-25
Bryn Mawr, PA

I'm finding that even FiOS TV has started freezing and pixellating...

Within the past couple months, I'm finding that not only does my Verizon 50/25 (that runs 60/55 on Speedtest.net) FiOS frequently buffer while using Netflix, but it's even beginning to freeze/pixellate when I try to watch normal HDTV!