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Netflix Data Makes AT&T Caps Look Less 'Generous'
Average Xbox 360 Netflix User Consumes 80GB/Month

Earlier this month when AT&T's caps went live (for some people, anyway), AT&T spokesman Mark Siegel not only tried to pass the caps off as something consumers had been clamoring for, but he insisted that the 150GB-250GB caps were "generous" in the age of streaming HD video. Earlier this week Sandvine issued data noting Netflix now takes up 30% of peak bandwidth use, but the report also had some interesting data on just how mainstream heavier use has become.

Janko Roettgers over at GigaOM directs our attention to the fact that data in that study showed that the average Netflix streaming user consumes 40GB a month. Users using the Xbox 360 to deliver the content to the living room tend to consume considerably more -- 80GB a month on average.

quote:
Unfortunately, we are not just talking about a few heavy gamers with Netflix co-dependencies: Around 25 percent of all Netflix traffic is consumed through the game console, according to Sandvine, with 33 percent of all Xbox 360 game consoles being used to stream Netflix content. One has to wonder how many of those Netflix-loving Xbox owners are poised to hit AT&T’s bandwidth cap with their next movie marathons.
Obviously that's 80GB of data just via Netflix, and doesn't include the litany of other consumption that occurs using the Xbox 360 alone (Hulu, game downloads, movies, demos) much less within the standard home each month. Again, AT&T's network sees little congestion and flat-rate broadband is profitable for the company; these caps are simply rate hikes from a company that tends to skimp on infrastructure improvements. We've long noted that the heavy user of today is the regular user of tomorrow, and AT&T's certainly counting on that -- getting users used to a per-byte system that lets the company cash in on the looming video explosion.

What's considered "fair" today is irrelevant if it's not adjusted tomorrow, though what people really should be asking is: where's the evidence from AT&T that these limits are necessary whatsoever?
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FFH5
Premium Member
join:2002-03-03
Tavistock NJ

FFH5

Premium Member

Game consoles & streaming devices driving video growth

From the Sandvine report, here is what devices are driving Netflix usage:

The Sony PS3 leads the parade.

Something else I came across in the Sandvine report was which protocols are eating up the bandwidth. And it breaks it down by upload and download. While BitTorrent is being eclipsed by video streaming like Netflix on downloads, it is still a big deal on the much narrower upload paths.

axiomatic
join:2006-08-23
Tomball, TX

axiomatic

Member

Re: Game consoles & streaming devices driving video growth

Help me understand Sandvines logic here?
ipad+iphone+ipod(touch) ARE in fact iOS Devices
per the spreadsheet ipad+iphone+ipod(touch)=1.67%
yet iOS Device = .16? Do they mean "OTHER iOS devices?"

Confused.

FFH5
Premium Member
join:2002-03-03
Tavistock NJ

FFH5

Premium Member

Re: Game consoles & streaming devices driving video growth

said by axiomatic:

Help me understand Sandvines logic here?
ipad+iphone+ipod(touch) ARE in fact iOS Devices
per the spreadsheet ipad+iphone+ipod(touch)=1.67%
yet iOS Device = .16? Do they mean "OTHER iOS devices?"

Confused.

The report doesn't say. But I suspect that they couldn't tell which iOS device it was in some cases and so they just put it under a generic iOS category.

There are separate specific apps for Netflix for iPhones and iPads, but you can put the iPhone Netflix app on an iPad(but not vice versa). Maybe that caused some of the confusion.

nukscull
@rr.com

nukscull to axiomatic

Anon

to axiomatic
Sandvine boxes read the header of a packet and a little bit more to determine exactly what the packet is.

It is likely that Sandvine could not determine what kidn of iOS device it was because Sandvine had never seen it before. They must write a "driver" for each kind of device for their box to be able to automatically determine what it is by the signature of the packet. They certainly aren't going to determine what every device is by hand.

Since this data is recent, it could be iPad2 that is just listed as "iOS device" because the signature of the packet wasn't yet recognized by Sandvine. Or it could be beta testers of iOS devices since the amount is so small. Or it could be jailbroken iOS devices that aren't reporting the correct data for the version of iOS they are running.

DataRiker
Premium Member
join:2002-05-19
00000

DataRiker to FFH5

Premium Member

to FFH5
said by FFH5:

eating up the bandwidth.
[att=2]

Isn't that the point of bandwidth to be used? Hopefully to full capacity.
openbox9
Premium Member
join:2004-01-26
71144

openbox9

Premium Member

Re: Game consoles & streaming devices driving video growth

Not when usage drives the need for CAPEX, or impacts other consumers in a negative manner.

fifty nine
join:2002-09-25
Sussex, NJ

fifty nine to DataRiker

Member

to DataRiker
said by DataRiker:

said by FFH5:

eating up the bandwidth.
[att=2]

Isn't that the point of bandwidth to be used? Hopefully to full capacity.

No not really. If this were electricity - you may have 200 amp service in your home but you're not going to draw 200 amps continuously, even during prime time. Even if the electricity could be generated the grid cannot support that.

DataRiker
Premium Member
join:2002-05-19
00000

DataRiker

Premium Member

Re: Game consoles & streaming devices driving video growth

said by fifty nine:

said by DataRiker:

said by FFH5:

eating up the bandwidth.
[att=2]

Isn't that the point of bandwidth to be used? Hopefully to full capacity.

No not really. If this were electricity - you may have 200 amp service in your home but you're not going to draw 200 amps continuously, even during prime time. Even if the electricity could be generated the grid cannot support that.

Your comparing a scarce resource to one that is not at all scarce.

Funny, my gigabit router at home doesn't have a meter on it.

koolkid1563
MVM
join:2005-11-06
Powell, WY
MikroTik CCR1036-8G-2S+
MikroTik hAP AC

koolkid1563

MVM

Re: Game consoles & streaming devices driving video growth

said by DataRiker:

Funny, my gigabit router at home doesn't have a meter on it.

Shhhh! Be careful with that one or it just might
cubguy
join:2010-07-09
Lawrenceville, GA

cubguy to DataRiker

Member

to DataRiker
said by DataRiker:

said by FFH5:

eating up the bandwidth.
[att=2]

Isn't that the point of bandwidth to be used? Hopefully to full capacity.

Here is some technicality to prove availability does not constitute "need to use"

When you pick up your phone on a POTS you get a dialtone. Most people take this for granted because its instantaneous, but do not realize that there are only a certain number of them available (channels) at any time. You see the breakdown of this system often during emergencies when large amounts of people attempt to access the telephone network at once. Its better now because of upstream algorithms can allocate additional bandwidth to handle the voice traffic, but think about New York and 9/11. It mostly affected the cellular network and was exacerbated by the loss of a primary cellular tower and the damage to the Verizon switch located across the street from WTC, but many people who just had POTS most likely picked up their phone to find there was no dial tone. They would assume damage to the line, but not always the case.

In a perfect world, companies would over-allocate the number available slots/channels for an area, but just like the airlines, they oversell the slots/seats with the calculation that not everyone will show/use the resources at once.
JMccovery
join:2011-01-08
Graysville, AL

JMccovery to FFH5

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to FFH5
Was this in a month? If so, 1.5 Terabytes just for Netflix on PS3? Wow!

heat84
DSLR Influencer
join:2004-03-11
Fort Lauderdale, FL

heat84 to FFH5

Member

to FFH5
said by FFH5:

While BitTorrent is being eclipsed by video streaming like Netflix on downloads, it is still a big deal on the much narrower upload paths.

I'm so proud to be a part of that 52%.
ender7074
join:2006-11-21
Saint Louis, MO

ender7074

Member

Give me a break

There's nothing "generous" about AT&T's caps. They are quite the opposite. I have a better idea for AT&T. How about concentrating on delivering decent service rather than capping the people they already have. I get 3.5 meg out of a 6 meg line, and they seem to think that's just peachy, but they don't seem real receptive about me only paying half the bill even though they're only delivering half the service to me. If I had any other option for broadband, AT&T would be kicked to the curb.

OSUGoose
join:2007-12-27
Columbus, OH

OSUGoose

Member

Re: Give me a break

sounds like your on a maxed out router, complain to them that its dropping the connection randomly and not only will that get fixed but youll get moved to a lessed maxed out one

vzw emp
@144.191.148.x

vzw emp

Anon

Re: Give me a break

It's possible he's just on the wrong plan. When I had DSL with AT&T I chose the 6meg plan. After I got the self-install kit and hooked it up I found I was barely getting half of that, even during off hours. I had AT&T come check it out and it turned out that everything was fine, I was simply limited due to distance.

Test it without the router, have AT&T send a tech to investigate, etc... If all else checks out, I'd call AT&T and downgraded to the 3meg plan (actually I'd be calling someone else to get away from AT&T, but that's a different post).

David
Premium Member
join:2002-05-30
Granite City, IL

David

Premium Member

Re: Give me a break

said by vzw emp :

Test it without the router, have AT&T send a tech to investigate, etc... If all else checks out, I'd call AT&T and downgraded to the 3meg plan .....

Way ahead of you by well over a mile. I already confirmed it's 11,000ft. I suggested the downgrade quite a while ago.
David

David to ender7074

Premium Member

to ender7074
said by ender7074:

There's nothing "generous" about AT&T's caps. They are quite the opposite. I have a better idea for AT&T. How about concentrating on delivering decent service rather than capping the people they already have. I get 3.5 meg out of a 6 meg line, and they seem to think that's just peachy, but they don't seem real receptive about me only paying half the bill even though they're only delivering half the service to me. If I had any other option for broadband, AT&T would be kicked to the curb.

I don't think it's that, it's called being 11,000ft from the C.O. trying to push elite speeds. I checked the direct history and from far back as I can search I have recommended downgrading to pro a couple of times.

Unless you have some way to break the laws of physics, that's the best he will get at 11,000ft.

As I have said before, a router will not fix a sync problem or out of pkg range problem! Yet no one chooses to listen to that.

I can only point, guide and advise. I can't fix people's behaviors.

OSUGoose
join:2007-12-27
Columbus, OH

OSUGoose

Member

Re: Give me a break

While that may be the cae with him, with me i am well within the 6meg distance limit, and a router fix solved my issue about speed. and being swaped to a netpoia from 2wire fixed the random disconnects.
en103
join:2011-05-02

en103 to David

Member

to David
I was somewhere past 12,000' on ADSL, and AT&T wanted to sell me 1.5Mbps/384kbps (website). I was able to get a reseller (DSLExtreme) to get them to push it to 3Mbps/512kbps package. I was direct from a CO - no RT here.
I did get the occasional drop - it was same time everyday.... when the cities sprinklers 'watered' the X box next to the VRAD.

David
Premium Member
join:2002-05-30
Granite City, IL

David

Premium Member

Re: Give me a break

said by en103:

I did get the occasional drop - it was same time everyday.... when the cities sprinklers 'watered' the X box next to the VRAD.

well that will do it if they are watering the box.
axiomatic
join:2006-08-23
Tomball, TX

axiomatic

Member

Internet (definition)

Internet
In·ter·net
[in-ter-net]
–noun
a vast computer network linking smaller computer networks worldwide (usually preceded by the ). the Internet includes commercial, educational, governmental, and other networks, all of which use the same set of communications protocols.

-----------------------------------

Oddly enough I don't see AT&T or Netflix listed in this definition at all? What I do see is that it is a amalgamation of companies, colleges, and government networks that can and should be used by everyone. If Netflix is paying their "internet bill," and I am paying mine as well, AT&T, as well as any other ISP, and more specifically SANDVINE needs to shut the hell up or offer some solid proof of this purported hardship of carrying Netflix across their small part of the larger internet to make such draconian decisions for all of us. I'm getting pretty sick of the lies and duplicity. We desperately need more competition in the ISP space to curtail the abuses from the major ISP's. We all also need to remember that Sandvine's customer is the large ISP. They are going to want to paint a specific picture to allure these large ISP to buying Sandvine's product.

Also, the reason I feel the XBOX 360 sees so much Netflix use is that it is by far the best of the Netflix clients. Makes sense that it would get the most use.

FFH5
Premium Member
join:2002-03-03
Tavistock NJ

FFH5

Premium Member

Re: Internet (definition)

said by axiomatic:

Also, the reason I feel the XBOX 360 sees so much Netflix use is that it is by far the best of the Netflix clients. Makes sense that it would get the most use.

It doesn't get the most use. The PS3 does.
»Game consoles & streaming devices driving video growth

MovieLover76
join:2009-09-11
Cherry Hill, NJ
(Software) pfSense
Asus RT-AC68
Asus RT-AC66

MovieLover76

Member

Re: Internet (definition)

I have both an XBOX360 and a PS3 and I've used netflix on both.
I actually prefer netflix on the ps3, the first with surround sound and one of the reasons that the PS3 is beating the xbox for netflix is that for the PS3 you don't have to be a paying online member to use netflix.
imho, that makes the ps3 a much better netflix device.

r81984
Fair and Balanced
Premium Member
join:2001-11-14
Katy, TX

r81984 to FFH5

Premium Member

to FFH5
said by FFH5:

said by axiomatic:

Also, the reason I feel the XBOX 360 sees so much Netflix use is that it is by far the best of the Netflix clients. Makes sense that it would get the most use.

It doesn't get the most use. The PS3 does.
»Game consoles & streaming devices driving video growth

That is because people are more likely to play games than watch netflix on an Xbox than a PS3.
ROFL

Uh oh
@uscg.mil

Uh oh

Anon

Cell Phones

It will be interesting to see what happens with phone bandwidth caps now that netflix is on android.

fifty nine
join:2002-09-25
Sussex, NJ

fifty nine

Member

Re: Cell Phones

said by Uh oh :

It will be interesting to see what happens with phone bandwidth caps now that netflix is on android.

My bet is nothing since Netflix was on iPhone for a while now and caps actually went DOWN not up.

uh oh
@tmodns.net

uh oh

Anon

Re: Cell Phones

That is the iphone...android has the majority of the market share now, netflix just came out for android, and all companies have some form of cap.

SpaethCo
Digital Plumber
MVM
join:2001-04-21
Minneapolis, MN

SpaethCo

MVM

Let's take an honest look at the numbers

The OECD places US wired broadband connections at 83,344,927. (Source: »www.oecd.org/document/54 ··· ,00.html) Netflix has 23 million subscribers across the US and Canada (Source: »ir.netflix.com/).

Even if all 23 million Netflix subscribers were from the US, and 100% of them were streaming on a regular basis, and all of that streaming only occurred over fixed broadband connections.. that's still only about 28% of broadband users streaming Netflix video content. The real numbers are obviously much lower than that.

So we're going to say that south of 30% of connections constitutes "average" now?

The article Wired put out a few months ago when Netflix accounted for 20% of consumption is even more telling:
Streaming media — real-time entertainment — accounts for 43% of peak period traffic in the U.S., according to Sandvine, which helps ISPs manage their networks and thus has access to buckets of information about usage patterns.

But Netflix alone accounts for nearly half of that between 8 and 10 p.m., and that usage comes from only 1.8 percent of the service’s subscribers.
Source:»www.wired.com/epicenter/ ··· with-use

Yes, some people are going to pay more under a cap + overage system. Perhaps even a couple hundred thousand people will -- but right now the numbers are still on the tiny end of the 80/20 rule. At this juncture I'd even argue less than 10% of AT&T's subscribers will face additional costs with the caps in place.

r81984
Fair and Balanced
Premium Member
join:2001-11-14
Katy, TX

r81984

Premium Member

Re: Let's take an honest look at the numbers

said by SpaethCo:

So we're going to say that south of 30% of connections constitutes "average" now?

You cannot average future usage only past usage.
Each person has their own usage that has no bearing on anyone else so it makes no sense to try and say there is an average that can tell you what people will do in the future.
You cannot just group unlike usage together and say there is an average.

ISP must build their networks based on peak usage for the speeds they offer.
88615298 (banned)
join:2004-07-28
West Tenness

88615298 (banned) to SpaethCo

Member

to SpaethCo
Funny thing about numbers. You can make them say what you want. For example.

If I have a water pipe delivering water to 100 homes and I say just 5 homes are using 30% of the water going through the pipe, well it sounds like those 5 houses are water hogs. However if you also knew that the amount of water going through the pipes is only 15% of what the pipes could actually handle then they aren't using that much after all are they?

All these ISPs have the attitude that because 50% of thier customers CHOOSE to underuse their connection that the rest of the people must be hogs. If 50% of the people choose to only eat 1000 calories a day it doesn't make me a "hog" if I'm eating 2000 calories a day.
chrad44
Premium Member
join:2003-09-28
Raleigh, NC

chrad44

Premium Member

Stayed with TWC

Caps are the sole reason i stayed with time warner cable over uverse. My kids are netflix junkies...watching episode after episode of shaun the sheep, dora explorer, scooby doo, etc...it adds up.

J Alert
Mayhem til the AM
Premium Member
join:2003-03-15
Tuckahoe, NY

J Alert

Premium Member

Where are the consumers who have been "clamoring" for

I love how AT&T just throws that out there. I am not an AT&T user, but I know I have never heard anyone clamoring for someone to cap their unlimited broadband. I have however heard plenty of voices crying against the money grab that is unfair caps and overage charges. Why doesn't AT&T address that? I can't stand this corporations that exist inside their own bubble.

•••••••••••
GreyWhyte
join:2009-06-03
Laurel, MD

GreyWhyte

Member

WHY

is this practice (UBB) legal???

1. The maximum RATE of TRANSFER on a "speed package" purchased from an ISP IS the DATA CAP.

2. IF ISPs need to improve infrastructure in the fight against congestion, "data hogs" and "heavy users" then, they could just raise the flat-rate fee by so many dollars. Where does UBB fit into this equation necessarily??

3. Data is not a "perishable commodity". We transfer data and in no way consume it. Data does not need to be metered or rationed. Bandwidth, on the hand, CAN BE considered a "perishable commodity" and it IS metered and rationed ("speed packages").

Solution : ISPs need to stick to what they've been doing well for so long...sell SPEED PACKAGES W/O DATA VOLUME LIMITS.

*** STOP THE MADNESS, REPEAL AND QUIT ***

THANK YOU TWC FOR STAYING SANE!!!
Cobra11M
join:2010-12-23
Mineral Wells, TX

Cobra11M

Member

Re: WHY

correct, remember the companys who built the bill. Its the ones with the caps already, AT&T, Comcast come to mind, did verizon have a say in it, NO, in fact they dont even want it. Timewarner yes they had a say and look there about to put caps.., Cox, suddenlink, centrylink, time will tell if they will, it will trickle down

but thankfully we have a few company that are willing to take this court and the FCC, as a american I dont believe the FCC should have this kind of power and in fact maybe a new agenice should be in place, But this one has way more work than you can shake a stick at..
slckusr
Premium Member
join:2003-03-17
Greenville, SC

slckusr

Premium Member

If im capped on data

Why are my speeds also penalized, am i paying for 250gb a month or am i paying for 12mbps ?.

If you want to limit my usage every month than what does speed matter? or is this just a way to confuse/double dip.
If im paying for 250gb a month i want the speed limit to come off.

GNH
I know my limitations.
Premium Member
join:1999-12-20
Canyon Lake, TX

GNH

Premium Member

** NEWS FLASH **

"All Bandwidth Starvation Ends Around 6PM, May 21st, 2011"

-- Harold Camping.

Enjoy!
OmagicQ
Posting in a thread near you
join:2003-10-23
Bakersfield, CA

OmagicQ

Member

Re: ** NEWS FLASH **

said by GNH:

"All Bandwidth Starvation Ends Around 6PM, May 21st, 2011"

-- Harold Camping.

Enjoy!

Only if you're a saint, but saints stay under the cap and only send text emails and barely surf the web. Its the sinners thats the problem, downloading movies and games, using up all the bandwidth. Those bits don't come out of thin air you know...
Notindaclub
join:2010-09-04

Notindaclub

Member

A little prayer to the divinity that is AT&T

"Earlier this month when AT&T's caps went live (for some people, anyway), AT&T spokesman Mark Siegel not only tried to pass the caps off as something consumers had been clamoring for, but he insisted that the 150GB-250GB caps were "generous" in the age of streaming HD video."

"Oh, most wise and most generous AT&T, please cap my internet bandwidth usage, and force me to pay you many additional dollars each time I foolishly and with malicious intent exceed your generous caps! I know nothing, you know all--teach me how to use the internet in a way that makes your executives better able to afford their Gulfstream V jets and Swiss chalets! Amen!"