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New AT&T TOS May Violate Law
Gives AT&T immense latitude, while your rights dwindle...
Last week AT&T confused some into thinking they were going to starting throttling U-Verse service like Comcast, after AT&T revised their TOS to try and highlight the distance and capacity limitations of VDSL, without, well, really highlighting the distance and capacity limitations of VDSL. But the new TOS is also under fire from consumer advocates for other things, including the fact it informs customers they'll get a 30-day notice of price increases only when "commercially reasonable" and it dictates that you can't sue AT&T. David Lazarus of the LA Times says the new 8000-word TOS (and the supplemental 2,500 page online guidebooks) are "written in dense legalese and essentially give(s) the company as much latitude as possible -- while limiting customers' ability to seek redress." They may also be illegal.
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FFH5
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FFH5

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Lawsuit happy groups cause TOS to be written that way

David Lazarus of the LA Times says the new 8000-word TOS are "written in dense legalese and essentially give(s) the company as much latitude as possible
Given the penchant for so-called consumer friendly groups to sue at the drop of a hat, does it surprise anyone that company lawyers write TOS to make it easier for a company to defend itself in court. All part of our overly litigious society where the legal profession causes about a 5% surcharge to the cost of everything we buy.

Matt3
All noise, no signal.
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Matt3

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Re: Lawsuit happy groups cause TOS to be written that way

said by FFH5:
David Lazarus of the LA Times says the new 8000-word TOS are "written in dense legalese and essentially give(s) the company as much latitude as possible
Given the penchant for so-called consumer friendly groups to sue at the drop of a hat, does it surprise anyone that company lawyers write TOS to make it easier for a company to defend itself in court. All part of our overly litigious society where the legal profession causes about a 5% surcharge to the cost of everything we buy.
I don't for a second buy into this "sue happy lawyers are the cause of high prices, draconian contracts, and ridiculous medical premiums" BS.

If the corporations in this country were more responsible toward their customers - especially those with a natural or government granted monopoly - this issue would take care of itself.

dnoyeB
Ferrous Phallus
join:2000-10-09
Southfield, MI

dnoyeB

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Re: Lawsuit happy groups cause TOS to be written that way

Well to be fair he said 5%. I can see law suits raising prices by 5%. Of course this is likely divided between bad behavior by the company and bad behavior by customers. Mostly the company though.

DaMaGeINC
The Lan Man
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Greenville, SC

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I also believe that a 5% increase is about right.

JRW2
R.I.P. Mom, Brian, Gary, Ziggy, Max.
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join:2004-12-20
La La Land

JRW2

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Re: Lawsuit happy groups cause TOS to be written that way

I think the number is much higher..

en102
Canadian, eh?
join:2001-01-26
Valencia, CA

en102

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Re: Lawsuit happy groups cause TOS to be written that way

I tend to agree.
Think of manufacturing / billing / service requirements that have to meet certain legal requirements.
This is just one reason why corporate like to offshore... less workforce legalities to deal with.
nasadude
join:2001-10-05
Rockville, MD

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said by FFH5:

Given the penchant for so-called consumer friendly groups to sue at the drop of a hat, does it surprise anyone that company lawyers write TOS to make it easier for a company to defend itself in court. All part of our overly litigious society where the legal profession causes about a 5% surcharge to the cost of everything we buy.
well, given the current government has pretty much completely abrogated their responsibility to protect consumers thru regulation and other means, lawsuits are often the means of last resort to hold corporations accountable.

if the government would do it's job, it wouldn't be necessary to be so litigious.

and I doubt very seriously these TOSes are written to protect from lawsuits - they appear more to be written to take away any rights the consumer may have and give the company power to do whatever they want.

Matt3
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Matt3

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Re: Lawsuit happy groups cause TOS to be written that way

said by nasadude:

and I doubt very seriously these TOSes are written to protect from lawsuits - they appear more to be written to take away any rights the consumer may have and give the company power to do whatever they want.
"Why hello Mr. Nail, I'm Mr. Hammer!"
"Hello Mr. Hammer ... wait, wait, what are you doing?"
"I'm hitting you on the head."

JRW2
R.I.P. Mom, Brian, Gary, Ziggy, Max.
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La La Land

JRW2

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Re: Lawsuit happy groups cause TOS to be written that way

BAM!!!
BAM! BAM! BAM!!!!!!

No more calls...
We have a winner!
Kearnstd
Space Elf
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8000 words is way too much for an ISP TOS/AUP. and anything consumber fronted it should be illegal to use Legalese because lets face 99% are not lawyers. its like cell contracts, a simple straight forward list of costs would mean lots more then densely worded legal docs.

Jim Kirk
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said by FFH5:

David Lazarus of the LA Times says the new 8000-word TOS are "written in dense legalese and essentially give(s) the company as much latitude as possible
Given the penchant for so-called consumer friendly groups to sue at the drop of a hat, does it surprise anyone that company lawyers write TOS to make it easier for a company to defend itself in court. All part of our overly litigious society where the legal profession causes about a 5% surcharge to the cost of everything we buy.
You forgot:

"and corporations do everything they can get away with to screw over their customers."

en102
Canadian, eh?
join:2001-01-26
Valencia, CA

en102

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Re: Lawsuit happy groups cause TOS to be written that way

or in more practical terms:
Corporations will do anything to maximize profit and investor value (share price).

RayW
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Layton, UT

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RayW

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Re: Lawsuit happy groups cause TOS to be written that way

said by en102:

or in more practical terms:
Corporations will do anything to maximize profit and investor value (share price).
or in more practical terms:
Corporations will do anything to maximize profit and executive benefits, perks, and pay.

Saw that several times, investors take second place to golden parachutes and poison pills and millions in bonuses for laying people off and sending work offshore.

stomp357
join:2003-04-13
Lake Charles, LA

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said by FFH5:

David Lazarus of the LA Times says the new 8000-word TOS are "written in dense legalese and essentially give(s) the company as much latitude as possible
Given the penchant for so-called consumer friendly groups to sue at the drop of a hat, does it surprise anyone that company lawyers write TOS to make it easier for a company to defend itself in court. All part of our overly litigious society where the legal profession causes about a 5% surcharge to the cost of everything we buy.
I hear ya. We should be able to just gun em down, or smash with hammers, and such.

swhx7
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said by Matt3:

If the corporations in this country were more responsible toward their customers - especially those with a natural or government granted monopoly - this issue would take care of itself.

They can't be more responsible, or ethical, or compassionate, or honest, or have any good qualities or behavior. The exclusive function of a corporation is to maximize value for shareholders, by any means necessary, regardless of how bad the consequences or side effects may be for individuals or society. The only constraint is sometimes the law, when corporations can't get away with breaking it. Basically, corporations are sociopaths, and have to be treated as such. That means regulation, and not expecting them to treat people decently.
said by nasadude:

well, given the current government has pretty much completely abrogated their responsibility to protect consumers thru regulation and other means, lawsuits are often the means of last resort to hold corporations accountable.

if the government would do it's job, it wouldn't be necessary to be so litigious.

and I doubt very seriously these TOSes are written to protect from lawsuits - they appear more to be written to take away any rights the consumer may have and give the company power to do whatever they want.

Yes exactly, well said on both counts (exploitive nature of corps and need for regulation).

These TOS are classic examples of what is called in law "contracts of adhesion". This means the difference in bargaining power is so large that there is no possibility of negotiating for reasonable terms; the contract is a "take it or leave it" proposition. The common-law treatment of contracts of adhesion is very weak - they are reformed only in rare, extreme cases. Consequently this situation is in dire need of legislation to protect consumers from overreaching and onerous terms.

NOVA_Guy
ObamaCare Kills Americans
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NOVA_Guy

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Re: Lawsuit happy groups cause TOS to be written that way

said by swhx7 See Profile
Basically, corporations are sociopaths, and have to be treated as such. That means regulation, and not expecting them to treat people decently.
[/BQUOTE :


Why not take a more reasonable position-- one that Reagan's administration proved worked? Remove ridiculous regulations and red tape, and let the market decide.

If people don't want to accept the new contract terms, nobody's holding a gun to their head... they are free to refuse them. If enough people choose to spend their money elsewhere then AT&T will get the message and be forced to change. Government regulation and control just complicates things and generally makes them more expensive.

swhx7
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swhx7

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Re: Lawsuit happy groups cause TOS to be written that way

said by NOVA_Guy:

Reagan's administration proved [that it] worked [to r]emove ridiculous regulations and red tape, and let the market decide. ... If enough people choose to spend their money elsewhere then AT&T will get the message and be forced to change.

The idea that the market will lead to good results is theoretically sound, under certain conditions. Those conditions include many buyers, many sellers, low transaction costs, and approximately equal bargaining power. The real world rarely has anything approaching these conditions. And when the situation is distorted by oligopoly or significant inequality - as in the case of big corporations dealing with individuals - markets produce toxic results.

Morover, corporations are constantly doing everything in their considerable power to influence government and law, to try to get themselves into monopoly or oligopoly positions, and to distort markets in many other ways.
said by NOVA_Guy:

If people don't want to accept the new contract terms, nobody's holding a gun to their head... they are free to refuse them. ... Government regulation and control just complicates things and generally makes them more expensive.

You're quoting right-wing clichés which have little to do with reality. "Government regulation and control" is exactly the only thing that can correct the market failures referred to above. Without it, we would still have slavery (people would have to sell themselves if they got into debt), 100-hour work weeks, most workers dying young of harmful workplace conditions, poisons in food, and many other evils that were abolished only by restraining the rapacity of profit-oriented businesses.
ender7074
join:2006-11-21
Saint Louis, MO

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ender7074

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Re: Lawsuit happy groups cause TOS to be written that way

And you're just quoting left wing cliches. Government regulation is not the answer. 20 years ago or so there was no choice for a phone provider. Now there are many. Same for internet and every other service that AT&T offers. If you don't like their business model, then don't buy their product. It really is that simple. Once the government gets invovled, it just ends up costing the taxpayer money while getting very little results. If these contracts are illegal, then so be it. Strike it down and have them draw up a new one. Other than that, vote with your wallet.

swhx7
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swhx7

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Re: Lawsuit happy groups cause TOS to be written that way

There are only one or two broadband internet providers in something like 90% of the locations in the US today. That's an oligopoly. And the companies take advantage of it by imposing TOS like the one this page is about. Obviously if there were enough competition, few customers would settle for such onerous terms. This is precisely a market failure. A policy of "let the market take care of it" is merely another way of saying, let it go on being the same.

There are more phone service providers than under the Bell monopoly, but still only a few, and as a result this is one of the most complained-about industries, and rates are higher than they need to be to provide the services. It's another clear case for regulation.

You and fellow righties do make one valid point: regulation tends to be harmful in many cases, or only partially helpful, because government typically does a poor job of it. This, however , does not mean the problems should remain unaddressed - instead it is only an argument for getting regulation right. In fact the main problem with regulation of industries is that it's subverted by corporate lobbies to work against the public.

morbo
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said by ender7074:

And you're just quoting left wing cliches. Government regulation is not the answer.
oh please. it's the LACK of regulations and proper oversight that has led to the current financial disaster that is the U.S. economy. every multi-billion dollar bailout is the direct result of letting the fox guard the hen house.
said by ender7074:

20 years ago or so there was no choice for a phone provider. Now there are many. Same for internet and every other service that AT&T offers.
p.s. the reason there have been options in phone service is BECAUSE the government forced the breakup of Ma Bell.

industry self regulation NEVER WORKS!
Ahrenl
join:2004-10-26
North Andover, MA

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Hello, this is reality calling,

The government ALREADY is involved, in that they provide AT&T with their wireline mono/duopoly. This is necessary as no one wants dozens of recursive wireline networks darkening the sky's, BUT it means the government must also regulate the assets to ensure MARKET COMPETITION. You are preaching against creating a healthy market, shame on you.

TScheisskopf
World News Trust
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Belvidere, NJ

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said by NOVA_Guy:

said by swhx7 See Profile
Basically, corporations are sociopaths, and have to be treated as such. That means regulation, and not expecting them to treat people decently.
[/BQUOTE :


Why not take a more reasonable position-- one that Reagan's administration proved worked? Remove ridiculous regulations and red tape, and let the market decide.

If people don't want to accept the new contract terms, nobody's holding a gun to their head... they are free to refuse them. If enough people choose to spend their money elsewhere then AT&T will get the message and be forced to change. Government regulation and control just complicates things and generally makes them more expensive.
Today, of all days, when the stock market and banks are in full meltdown mode, due to excesses caused by deregulation(Gramm-Leach-Bliley), you have the temerity to say that deregulation WORKS??!! Then you add in airlines, energy(another Gramm bill-The Enron Loophole) and, yes, telecom and thing get worse? Then you add in tax breaks for offshoring jobs?

Oh man...the cognitive dissonance is so thick around here you could cut it with a Taco Bell Spork.

Please: wake up and look around you. Even CEO's on Wall Street are calling for more regulation, as they should.

And remember: Even Adam "Invisible Hand of The Marketplace" Smith wasn't foolish enough to call for deregulation. He accepted and advocated for regulations as necessary to mitigate the basest urges of those involved in the marketplace. He knew that when men and personal gain come together, greed unbridled is the result and that regulations would work to keep things stable and constructive for society as a whole.

You guys really HAVE to stop getting your economic information from Rush Limbaugh and Poor little Mikey Weiner. Really.

KrK
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Tk, some of these terms are really unfriendly though. It's not like you want to sue over some billing dispute, for example.... but the terms in these documents include language like "You will pay for all charges on your bill --- Even if such charges ARE NOT AUTHORIZED by you" etc.... This is not only pretty silly, I mean imagine if you had a bunch of things billed to YOUR bill that you never ordered/used/called, etc.....

... but this also likely violates laws. Many states have anti-cramming laws. What's really neat is the provisions that state "Your only recourse if you have a dispute or problem is cancel the service"... effectively pay up or shut up with no in between. Sheesh.

If anything, this new AT&T TOS is *likely* to generate lawsuits due do the extremely harsh terms.
The Antihero
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Enola, PA

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said by FFH5:

David Lazarus of the LA Times says the new 8000-word TOS are "written in dense legalese and essentially give(s) the company as much latitude as possible
Given the penchant for so-called consumer friendly groups to sue at the drop of a hat, does it surprise anyone that company lawyers write TOS to make it easier for a company to defend itself in court. All part of our overly litigious society where the legal profession causes about a 5% surcharge to the cost of everything we buy.
Spoken like a true corporate shill.

FFH5
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FFH5

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Re: Lawsuit happy groups cause TOS to be written that way

said by The Antihero:
said by FFH5:
David Lazarus of the LA Times says the new 8000-word TOS are "written in dense legalese and essentially give(s) the company as much latitude as possible
Given the penchant for so-called consumer friendly groups to sue at the drop of a hat, does it surprise anyone that company lawyers write TOS to make it easier for a company to defend itself in court. All part of our overly litigious society where the legal profession causes about a 5% surcharge to the cost of everything we buy.
Spoken like a true corporate shill.
And spoken like someone without anything to say except a pointless flame.
The Antihero
join:2002-04-09
Enola, PA

The Antihero

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Re: Lawsuit happy groups cause TOS to be written that way

said by FFH5:

And spoken like someone without anything to say except a pointless flame.
What else can be said to someone who believes that Big Business is always right, no matter what?
s133
join:2007-12-06
USA

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said by The Antihero:

Spoken like a true corporate shill.
A guy with a Republican avatar shilling for corporations? Surely you jest!

GlobalMind
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said by FFH5:
David Lazarus of the LA Times says the new 8000-word TOS are "written in dense legalese and essentially give(s) the company as much latitude as possible
Given the penchant for so-called consumer friendly groups to sue at the drop of a hat, does it surprise anyone that company lawyers write TOS to make it easier for a company to defend itself in court. All part of our overly litigious society where the legal profession causes about a 5% surcharge to the cost of everything we buy.
Thing is TK, it goes both ways really.

All these TOSs are what they are until someone challenges it. And we do know one of those ways they like to help defend themselves is with the arbitration clause.

Of course some people & groups take it to the extreme and sue for everything. But then again, the legal system is the only way to attempt to achieve balance in all parties interest when you're faced with what is nearly a defacto monopoly (less so perhaps in today's climate but true in some cases).

Cost of doing business, can't be completely eliminated...it is what it is .

pnh102
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Why Is This A Problem?

AT&T (or any other company) can put any sort of language it wishes into a contract. The law protects people from contract provisions that run contrary to the law.

What exactly is the problem here?
backness
join:2005-07-08
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backness

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Re: Why Is This A Problem?

You have time to read 2500 pages for a $29.99 service?

pnh102
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pnh102

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Re: Why Is This A Problem?

said by backness:

You have time to read 2500 pages for a $29.99 service?
I make time to read every contract I sign, multiple times if needed, until I understand to what I am agreeing. The length of the contract is irrelevant. (Landlords hated my guts when I was signing lease papers and I was apparently quite the bore when I closed on my house)

I do it because I value my time and my money. If I find provisions of a contract with which I do not agree and I cannot change them, then I weigh my need for the service provided that is governed by the contract against my being bound to the terms of the contract before I commit to the contract or not.

••••••••••

cdru
Go Colts
MVM
join:2003-05-14
Fort Wayne, IN

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said by backness:

You have time to read 2500 pages for a $29.99 service?
After a quick look, it looks like the 2500 pages isn't for UVerse internet service, but rather all of AT&T's telecommunication services (including both residential and business) in multiple regions. It's also fairly structured so it's not like they are even giving you a 2500 page PDF and telling you to go find whatever all by yourself.

To me, the LA Times was just sensationalizing the whole thing by adding in the 2500 page guidebook quote, when in reality that "fact" shouldn't have even of been mentioned.

KrK
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Regulations/laws too weak?
Kearnstd
Space Elf
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but is such a huge TOS even needed? for example why buy a cap in legalese if they put one in rather then just a nice simple thing

"Usage Limits per month: 250gb"

instead that number is buried somewhere in an ocean of legalese.

weeksben1
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join:2004-02-26
Clarkston, MI

weeksben1

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TOS

First off, I'd like to state that I'm no lawyer. But from what I've read of the new TOS, these new terms could be deemed as unconscionable, and thus possibly unenforceable.

KrK
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KrK

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Re: TOS

said by weeksben1:

First off, I'd like to state that I'm no lawyer. But from what I've read of the new TOS, these new terms could be deemed as unconscionable, and thus possibly unenforceable.
I'd have to agree. If anything, this TOS and is going to GENERATE legal action against at&t because it appears that the customers will have little other choice!

dnoyeB
Ferrous Phallus
join:2000-10-09
Southfield, MI

dnoyeB

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My "rights"?

"Gives AT&T immense latitude, while your rights dwindle..."

I think its impossible to contract away your rights in USA. Its not legal.

•••

KrK
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KrK

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This brings up an interesting question....

To those who defend such actions by at&t as "Defending themselves" and "Just doing what a Corporation is supposed to do, maximize shareholder value" etc, this brings up a question....

Why is it wrong for a consumer to act similarly in their own best interest? IE demanding refunds over problems, even if not real, filing lawsuits constantly, trying to wiggle out of contracts and or bills, even if legitimate? After all, aren't they simply looking out for #1 themselves?

For some, it seems it's "OK" for Corporations to look out for their own interests, but somehow consumers are wrong to do so...

Personally, I think that there are laws, and then there are ethics. I feel people and businesses should comply with laws, and also act honestly, ethically, and fairly. Seems damn old-fashioned, these days. :/
old_wiz_60
join:2005-06-03
Bedford, MA

old_wiz_60

Member

Ethics? What?

Ethics doesn't serve the cause of profit.

Even if their TOS is illegal, when has anything like that bothered the telcos? They know that the worst that can happen is they won't be able to enforce all of it. They'll never be fined or prosecuted, so why worry.

timcuth
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The only real question is...

... will we consumers stop subscribing in the face of these tactics?

Personally, I probably will stop subscribing. But I doubt that large numbers will. at&t will have their way.

Tim
nevtxjustin
join:2006-04-18
Dallas, TX

nevtxjustin

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legalese usage

Dear Big Company...

We have monitored your legalese usage and you have exceeded 5,000 words per TOS.

We require that you upgrade your account to our $10,000 per month legalese usage plan.

Thank you for using our bank account.