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New FCC Consumer Task Force Investigating ETFs
Letters sent to wireless carriers examining ETF usage...
by Karl Bode Tuesday 26-Jan-2010 tags: legal · fcc · business · Op/Ed · consumers
The FCC today announced (pdf) that the agency's new "consumer task force" has sent letters to AT&T, Google, Sprint Nextel, TMobile, and Verizon Wireless with the goal of collecting additional information on early termination fees (ETFs). As you'll recall, the FCC recently raised an eyebrow when Verizon recently doubled their ETF for all smartphones. Use of the fees has long been a contentious issue between carriers and consumer advocates, and carriers have settled a number of ETF class action suits for failing to make the fees clear.

You might also recall how these fees have long annoyed Minnesota Democratic Senator Amy Klobuchar, who has tried to pass laws twice aimed at reining in the fees. To keep such regulation at bay, carriers have recently started pro-rating ETFs each month over the length of the contract. Judging from the letters (pdf) being sent to carriers, the FCC isn't interested in banning ETFs as-so-much as they are interested in ensuring they're clear to consumers, and consistent across carriers.

ETFs have always been hotly debated among our readers. Some argue that consumers should be fully responsible for reading the contract they sign, and if they don't like the ETF penalty -- buy a fully unsubsidized phone and avoid a long term contract. Opponents of ETFs point out that ETFs are used to diminish the benefits of competition, the unsubsidized cost of contract-free phones are frequently jacked up in an unreasonable fashion, and even under a pro-rated system, the consumer isn't able to pay off the ETF over the length of a contract.

The debate has only grown as ETFs are becoming standard practice for terrestrial broadband service as well. As you'll recall, Verizon recently doubled their ETF for FIOS installations and wireless services, and the FCC asked them why. The telco's justifications weren't particularly compelling, and included the claim that the higher fees were designed to help consumers "of more limited means." Apparently, simple profit was an afterthought to philanthropy.

"The FCC is currently investigating options for improving consumer information and transparency about communications services and fees," says the FCC's letter to AT&T. "In the interest of clarifying these important consumer issues, we are now writing simultaneously to multiple companies to ask a standard set of questions on approaches to ETFs and their implementation," says the agency. The FCC's letters ask carriers which service plans and devices ETFs apply to, how users are informed of the ETF, and requests each carrier justify the use of ETFs.

For their part, the wireless industry's primary lobbying organization (the CTIA) issued a statement this afternoon pledging cooperation. In it, the carriers "agree with the FCC that transparency and disclosure is very critical and that consumers must understand the terms of their contract." "Ultimately, consumers in the United States have many options for subsidized handsets and lower priced plans that most consumers around the world do not have," insists the CTIA.

It's not clear if the FCC's inquiry will actually result in an substantive policy shift, or if this is just showmanship designed to make consumer advocates feel good (while either intentionally or inadvertently helping carriers stall ETF-constricting legislation). Again, it seems like if the agency is really interested in billing transparency, they might want to put some of their investigative energy into an examination of bogus below the line fees that have been tacked on to consumer bills for the better part of a decade.

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Morac

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Class action law suit

Interestingly enough I got an email today from AT&T that states that I might be affected by a class action lawsuit filed by the state of NJ regarding ETFs.

It doesn't affect me though since I haven't paid an ETF during the time frame (1/1/1998 to 11/4/2009).
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ptrowski
Got Helix?
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Re: Class action law suit

Same here.
fiberguy
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1 edit

It's very simple when it comes to ETFs...

... If the consumer doesn't like the WHOLE deal attached to the ETF, then don't accept the deal on the phone and pay full price...

Why in the hell is ANYONE, especially the FCC, spending this much time, energy, and MONEY investigating such a non-issue.. And, even more so, why is the consumer so "confused" about the ETF? Does anyone realize just how stupid the consumer is being called and treated by them saying this? Or, is the consumer just that stupid? Seriously, there is NOTHING that says a consumer HAS to take the deal on the phone and go into a contract... simply pay the full fee for what ever it may be, the hardware, install, etc. and viola! .. no contracts to worry about.

.. and not to mention, people don't NEED a cell phone much less a "smart phone" which happens to be the most expensive phones. But, I WILL say that the fee is pretty high for them... but non the less.. in the world of competition, Verizon is the one making the mistake.. the ATT, Sprint, and Tmo smart phones have a MUCH better ETF deal should you choose to take them.. so what's the big deal? .. or is government so bored with the fact the economy is in such great shape, jobs are everywhere, the world is at peace, and just everything in general is SOOOO great that competition between cellular carriers is such a necessity to spend more tax dollars on that we don't have in the first place.

In case the Feds forgot, we're practically bankrupt as a nation.

Oh, and this....

***
"The FCC is currently investigating options for improving consumer information and transparency about communications services and fees," says the FCC's letter to AT&T. "In the interest of clarifying these important consumer issues, we are now writing simultaneously to multiple companies to ask a standard set of questions on approaches to ETFs and their implementation,
***

Um... maybe if the government would also do THEIR part in not throwing so many BS fees and taxes on top of the bills that the consumer would have an easier time in understanding these fees.

So, be on the look out for a new fee.. the "FCC is trying to make fees more transparent and understandable" fee..

In the end it's very simple.. the fee WILL be gathered one way or another be it in higher handset costs and installation/activation fees, OR, in higher rates charged to the consumer for air-time. I think it's funny,.. the government requires that all citizens take a history course.. and why? It's important to learn history as we're bound to repeat it if we don't.. right? ... I'm guessing that most everyone and anyone in government failed that course.. all they're going to do is spend a lot of money to shift these fees to the consumer in an even MORE less-transparent way...

GiveEmHell

@comcast.net

Re: It's very simple when it comes to ETFs...

To OP:
Ummm, this is the FCC's JOB. You'd rather them do nothing for their paychecks?
The government absolutely needs to close these loopholes these carriers use to EXTORT money out of people.
This is caused by these very same corporations and politicians that have caused the current economic crisis.
Let's not focus on that though....too much trouble to fault the actual causes.
Yes, the tax code is out of date and nobody disagrees with that. It has been for ages.
There are some things Ron Paul is right about and pressure needs to be exerted across the board.

jester121
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Re: It's very simple when it comes to ETFs...

said by GiveEmHell :

To OP:
Ummm, this is the FCC's JOB.
Says who? Seems to me (and the courts, lately) that the FCC thinks its job is to do whatever the hell it wants to. God forbid they focus on their core requirements like managing spectrum and such.

Gbcue
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No, these are duties for the FTC.
fiberguy
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Re: It's very simple when it comes to ETFs...

said by Gbcue:

No, these are duties for the FTC.
How so? Where do they have the constitutional authority to do all these things they seem to be doing as of late? Jester 121 said it well.. their core job is managing spectrum to which I'll add.. in the open air.

Seriously.. not sure where you believe they have the lawful authority to do the things they are so-called "in charge of" these days.. but, anyone that has studied the constitution and the law knows that agencies like the FCC taking on the duties they have taken is actually not very kosher in the eyes of the laws.

Gbcue
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Re: It's very simple when it comes to ETFs...

said by fiberguy:

said by Gbcue:

No, these are duties for the FTC.
How so? Where do they have the constitutional authority to do all these things they seem to be doing as of late? Jester 121 said it well.. their core job is managing spectrum to which I'll add.. in the open air.

Seriously.. not sure where you believe they have the lawful authority to do the things they are so-called "in charge of" these days.. but, anyone that has studied the constitution and the law knows that agencies like the FCC taking on the duties they have taken is actually not very kosher in the eyes of the laws.
Managing spectrum is the FCC's job.

Managing anti-consumer behavior (ETFs) is the FTC's job. I was replying to the anon in which he says the FCC should be doing that.
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fiberguy
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Re: It's very simple when it comes to ETFs...

OOOOOHHHH.. der.. Sorry.. dang F and T... I though you were saying FCC.. Sorry!!

cdru
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said by Gbcue:

Managing spectrum is the FCC's job.

Managing anti-consumer behavior (ETFs) is the FTC's job. I was replying to the anon in which he says the FCC should be doing that.
FCC gets responsibility as they already are tasked with some aspects of regulating rates and fees of telecommunication services. If you had both the FCC and FTC having jurisdiction over similar issues I would guarantee you that the telcos would simultaneously argue to each commission that the OTHER commission was the one responsible for whatever the issue is at hand.
fiberguy
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Mr. Anon....

The FCC and what it's duties really are is in itself a whole other conversation.. HOWEVER, the FCC was created to ensure that frequency space was allocated amongst those that use it... the whole notion that they're worried about an ETF fee that is not a requirement to a consumer is absolutely absurd!

You CLEARLY didn't read my post and you clearly already have your point made up in your mind and are obviously not likely to even listen - as you already haven't...

.. the point was made.. the consumer does NOT have to take the subsidy on the cell phone which comes with the requirement that you stay for 2 years of service! The mere fact that they are already pro-rating this fee (which while I do think is a fair idea) is also a far reach. Again, you, the consumer, knows that taking the phone with a discount comes with terms.. do you know what the definition of the word "terms" is? If not.. look it up.

I do NOT like government getting involved, to this level, when it comes to consumer purchases.. The consumer is a complete IDIOT if they are not understanding that by getting the "deal" they have to commit to a term of service.

Here's the issue, and you can spare me your "loop hole" argument please.. that's nonsense.. the issue is that the poor harmed "extorted" consumer has the option to take the phone at full price which doesn't come with a contract. So please, tell me where these "loopholes" are you speak of and how the carriers are using these to "extort" anything.. and while you're at it, please look up the definition of the word "extortion" before you use that again in this case.

You say so much in your post, Mr. Anon, which also makes me wonder why you won't create an account and put some stability to your post in the first place. You should look also at your finger pointing of the corporations (Which I noticed you placed first in your line of accused) and politicians.. you should also include in that line up those members of Wall St. as well as the consumer him or herself...

It's people with opinions such as yourself that want to point the blame at everyone else as being at fault.. but again, look at the consumer for the economic crisis! The CONSUMER willingly signed on the line in many cases.. they purchased FAR more home than they could afford.. they turned their homes into ATMs so they could buy big SUVs they couldn't afford.. plasma TV's, and many other things they really didn't need in the first place. It's called "PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY" and "LIVING IN YOUR MEANS"... something that MANY people didn't do.. MOST EVERYONE is to blame on the economy.. well, I'm sorry, but I took no part in this mess.. I pay cash for everything I purchase except for the home that I know that I could afford and STILL CAN. But, thank you to everyone else that participated in the big cash grab of the 2000's, becuase of all those people's irresponsibility, I'm someone that also gets to pay the price.

But.. you pointed your finder at politicians as a cause of the economic problems, right? So why in the world do you want the FCC to investigate anything? Who do you think places the FCC where they are? Who do you think has control over the FCC? And this is where you turn for protection?

You have choices.. you don't want the ETF fees that are somehow extorting money from you, then buy the phone at full price... go get one from eBay.. or better yet, don't buy a PDA phone - YOU DON'T NEED ONE! yes... you don't! if YOU, the consumer, are not happy with what the offer in front of you is, either don't take it, OR go with another provider who will give you the better deal. Thanks to VZ, there are now MANY providers that have a better deal for you.. get it? By choosing to NOT do business with, or simply not buying the item with such a major ETF in the first place, YOU are making the change to the market place and guess what.. you don't need to bother those corrupt politicians in the first place.. .

But, I'm sorry.. this will fall on deaf ears becuase the only thing you want, and BELIEVE, is that the FCC is mandated to look at, basically which turns out to be, WHY in the world the consumer is such an idiot in the first place.

But, to answer your question in the first place.. yes, I want the FCC to do their job.. NOTHING MORE! It's their job to manage frequency.. that's all their job should be in the first place as its why they were created. The FCC is just more bureaucracy that has grown far beyond it's boundaries, AND, beyond what the constitution allows of them..

(A small lesson.. the FCC is a body of government that is allowed to create rules that affect laws in this country - or as its said more simpler.. they're doing the job of congress which they don't have the constitutional authority to do. Also, they somehow have the ability to assess fines and penalties, again, something that only the judicial branch has the authority to do... so if you wonder why I could care less about the FCC in this case.. now you know)
kem09030

join:2004-11-29
Ozark, MO

Re: It's very simple when it comes to ETFs...

The problem is some carriers (here's looking at you Sprint) will still lock you into a contract even if you pay full price on the equipment or bring your own. Then if you cancel you still have to pay the ETF and that doesn't exactly seem right to me. If that happens to be the only network that works where you live then you are stuck with the contract they provide.
fiberguy
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Re: It's very simple when it comes to ETFs...

Sprint doesn't require a contract when you bring your own phone. I have two of my 5 lines that were started with out their phone, but one I already owned on my own, and those phones still enjoy contract free services.

Yes, there are some, okay, many reps at Sprint that think as you state, however, you do NOT need to have a contract... what you're dealing with is an under-educated CSR on the other end of the phone.

ThrowDemsOut
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said by fiberguy:

.. or is government so bored with the fact the economy is in such great shape, jobs are everywhere, the world is at peace, and just everything in general is SOOOO great that competition between cellular carriers is such a necessity to spend more tax dollars on that we don't have in the first place.
All government agencies feel obligated to justify their existence by constantly asking businesses for information and also coming up with regulations and the staff needed to enforce the regulations.

The prime directive is that you must justify your budget and if at all possible increase it for the following year. And that is the problem when agencies(like the FCC) are created that don't have clearly elucidated directives on what their powers are and what they aren't.

When Congress creates these agencies they usually do so with vague rules about their powers, arguing that the agency must adapt over time and that writing a law that limits their powers means that Congress might have to rewrite the law again in a few years. But that allows a situation we now have - a bunch of bureaucrats that constantly increase the scope of their powers, leading of course to more staff and a bigger budget - the main goal of all bureaucrats.
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AVonGauss
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Why you ask? Maybe because a certain carrier significantly raised their ETF and other carriers started to increase theirs as well? Its not exactly a random act on the FCCs part.
fiberguy
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Re: It's very simple when it comes to ETFs...

Umm.. maybe prices go up? .. maybe you don't have to pay the fee by not taking the candy in the first place? Maybe becuase prices and times change? Maybe becuase you're life will go on if you don't buy the PDA phone? Maybe the economy has changed and caused an upset in the costs to provide these phones?

.. who knows.. who cares.. it's not the FCC's place to investigate this..

No one is holding a gun to your head to buy these class of phones, nor use the carrier, OR take the offer that attaches the ETFs.

Look, the writing is on the wall.. the ETF is being fought by brainless consumers that don't understand why they have to pay one when they agreed to it, and they got a cheap/er or free handset FOR it... so really, that brainless and ignorant group of people found equally ignorant lawyers who are forcing this through the courts.. becuase of this, what you're basically seeing is the precursor to the end of subsidized handsets - just my guess.

So.. really.. be done with the ETF.. welcome in the era of the consumer paying full price for a phone.

Do you have ANY idea how bad a small group of people with no education or ounce of brains, in my opinion, are going to really piss the majority of people off by their selfish actions? .. a lot!

If they remove phone subsidies, less people will be able to afford or want the more advanced phones.. less demand, means higher prices. It also means less choice as less phones will be made. Yes, sure, people will have the freedom to go from one carrier to another all they want - woohoo! good for them! Just be ready to buy your next phone at full price too..

But, back to the FCC.. I don't care if they raise their rates.. it's still not the job of the FCC to look into any of that.. if people feel harmed, they have the courts. If the courts found wrong doing, they will rule accordingly. If congress doesn't want to see ETF fees, AT ALL, they can pass a law that gets rid of them.. but, it's not the job of the FCC to "look into" this stuff.
Skippy25

join:2000-09-13
Hazelwood, MO

Re: It's very simple when it comes to ETFs...

said by fiberguy:

So.. really.. be done with the ETF.. welcome in the era of the consumer paying full price for a phone.
So bring it on and lets kill 2 birds with one stone here. 1.) Let the day when we get to pay the true cost of the phone come. Then these over inflated prices will come down to a true cost. 2.) Consumers will probably buy less smartphones thus relieving the poor poor wireless industry of the bandwidth constraint they are dying under.

said by fiberguy:

Do you have ANY idea how bad a small group of people with no education or ounce of brains, in my opinion, are going to really piss the majority of people off by their selfish actions? .. a lot!
That is quite funny and pretty hypocritical. Do you have any idea how bad a small group of over educated know it alls, in my opinion, are going to really piss the majority of people off by their selfish and greedy actions? .. a lot! Funny how that works huh?
fiberguy
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Re: It's very simple when it comes to ETFs...

To your second reply in your post.. tit for tat isn't a valid argument... that's sooooo 2nd grade there bud.

You are right tho.. there are a lot of over educated idiots that screw up just as equal as the non education idiots.. so what does that say? Maybe the people in the middle should wake up and do something about it and stop sitting on their asses bitching.. like they do here on this site.

News flash.. this so-called consumer-advocate website doesn't change anything.. in fact, it really does nothing but provide a forum for flamers... and people to have a place to call others "shills"...

And also, news flash.. the consumer is equally as greedy.. hrmm.
Skippy25

join:2000-09-13
Hazelwood, MO

Re: It's very simple when it comes to ETFs...

And yet you spend so much time here........

You say the consumer is greedy, I say the consumer is protective of his money. The consumer doesn't get to just make up fees or raise his salary when ever he feels like it to accommodate himself like the corporations you come here turfing for do. Nor does the consumer get to pass on any cost, fines, or fees associated with consumption of products or life in general on to their employers at the drop of a hat to maintain their standard of living.
fiberguy
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Re: It's very simple when it comes to ETFs...

said by Skippy25:

And yet you spend so much time here........
And? ... so what...

I find it entertaining.. there is some information, but I also know how to spot BS and I also know how to debate and argue against that that I don't either agree with, or believe are way over the edge.. that's what a debate is about.. otherwise, what you're telling me is what I"m saying is true.. this is a bitch board, and I don't believe that's what the creator of this site intended originally back when it was founded years ago.

You say the consumer is greedy, I say the consumer is protective of his money.
Don't put words in my mouth.. I said the consumer is "equally as greedy" ... and they are..

Being protective of your money is one thing... (a whole other discussion) But, SPENDING WISELY is another.. To say the consumer is protective of their money is fine.. however, the way you're implicating that is so much that the consumer is OWED a certain price that fits their budget.. and guess what.. there is a plan that fits the consumer's budget.. however, you believe that the consumer should have anything they want at a better price... sorry.. not the way it works.

The consumer can be protective of their money by choosing not to spend it on certain things. Sorry, but if you can't afford an iPhone on your budget, don't buy one.. if you don't like the BlackBerry on Verizon becuase the cost is too much, go to another carrier.. and if the over all price of a top of the line phone, ie: the PDA, is too much - then maybe you either don't need one, or your budget doesn't allow for one. And, to be honest, the PDA is designed for the business person to begin with. While it may be popular amongst some personal users, it really is not a personal end-user device.. its far more phone than the normal end user needs.

So, with that said, protect your money.. but get something in that your budget allows. If you believe you really need a high end phone, or you need all the bells and whistles that come with it like mobile internet, etc... well, then maybe cut back on OTHER expenses... don't buy that plasma TV.. don't buy the iPod.. don't buy such an expensive car.. and if all those aren't already in the expense list and you still can't afford the high end stuff.. what does that say to the consumer.. DON'T BUY WHAT YOU CAN'T AFFORD! I know that some people here, such as yourself, believe that people are entitled to have access to everything.. but, the fact is, you're going to be hard pressed to find any one responsible, or with an ounce of brain in their head, to agree with you. Sorry..

The consumer doesn't get to just make up fees or raise his salary when ever he feels like it to accommodate himself like the corporations you come here turfing for do.
Ummm.. when did I ever "turf" (dumbass) for fees? You clearly don't read.. my position has ALWAYS been that companies need to simply put their BS fees into the cost of basic services and stop breaking them out.. All they are getting from doing that is a cheaper base rate to advertise.. I've never strayed from my point of view. And, there is a difference between TAXES and FEES.. If a company needs to add a "fee" becuase it cost them that much to do business, then it's CLEARLY a cost of doing business and needs to be reflected in the base rates. Period.

As for mandatory network price plans attached to certain phones.. well.. sorry, I tend to agree with them. There are things YOU don't think of, or may not think of.. but, maybe there are costs associated with supporting those users who have phones that are CLEARLY designed for network use who end up with network charges WITH OUT plans that end up costing the company time, money, and resources, to explain to the consumer that they should either buy a plan, OR, realize they will be charged by the byte... maybe they're looking at numbers YOU don't see and realize it's time to attach appropriate plans to phones that were designed for certain uses.. and again, I agree with this. Why buy an iPhone if you're not going to use the data.. the phone is designed for it. Why have a blackberry and not have data? .. for an easy way to text? If that's the case, then get a more appropriate phone that is simply designed for texting.. Companies sell these phones with the nation that the end user will use data.. when they don't take data, they lose money on the device in the long term scheme.. since there are plenty of different model of phones out there,.. the basic flip, texting phones, multimedia phones and PDA/Smart Phones.. get one that matches your needs.. simple.

Nor does the consumer get to pass on any cost, fines, or fees associated with consumption of products or life in general on to their employers at the drop of a hat to maintain their standard of living.
This is just plain silly.. I won't even touch this statement becuase it's plain silly.. Employment is AT-WILL in most states.. you don't have a right to work.. I just simply can't understand your thinking on this.. but I really don't care to be honest.. But anyway.. you have the ability to avoid doing business with companies that you don't like their policies. And, in this case, a cell phone is still not considered a necessity.. so, if you don't like what you have available to you.. then, find other choices - as there are many - or go with out.

KrK
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Because it's more then just cost of the phone upfront. It's an anti-competitive move to try and keep people locked into a service plan they can't change or leave. Is it really fair for people to face a $350 termination fee on a phone that costs $300-$400 and they've already been paying on it for 18 months?

Besides, this is more then just phones. This ETF BS is spreading, into areas where it has NO business whatsoever being charged, like cable TV, U-Verse, Broadband, Satellite etc. You don't even own the equipment yet they want you to face a huge fee.

No thanks. Go FCC.
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sonicmerlin

join:2009-05-24
Cleveland, OH
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said by fiberguy:

... If the consumer doesn't like the WHOLE deal attached to the ETF, then don't accept the deal on the phone and pay full price...

Why in the hell is ANYONE, especially the FCC, spending this much time, energy, and MONEY investigating such a non-issue.. And, even more so, why is the consumer so "confused" about the ETF? Does anyone realize just how stupid the consumer is being called and treated by them saying this? Or, is the consumer just that stupid? Seriously, there is NOTHING that says a consumer HAS to take the deal on the phone and go into a contract... simply pay the full fee for what ever it may be, the hardware, install, etc. and viola! .. no contracts to worry about.

.. and not to mention, people don't NEED a cell phone much less a "smart phone" which happens to be the most expensive phones. But, I WILL say that the fee is pretty high for them... but non the less.. in the world of competition, Verizon is the one making the mistake.. the ATT, Sprint, and Tmo smart phones have a MUCH better ETF deal should you choose to take them.. so what's the big deal? .. or is government so bored with the fact the economy is in such great shape, jobs are everywhere, the world is at peace, and just everything in general is SOOOO great that competition between cellular carriers is such a necessity to spend more tax dollars on that we don't have in the first place.

In case the Feds forgot, we're practically bankrupt as a nation.

Oh, and this....

***
"The FCC is currently investigating options for improving consumer information and transparency about communications services and fees," says the FCC's letter to AT&T. "In the interest of clarifying these important consumer issues, we are now writing simultaneously to multiple companies to ask a standard set of questions on approaches to ETFs and their implementation,
***

Um... maybe if the government would also do THEIR part in not throwing so many BS fees and taxes on top of the bills that the consumer would have an easier time in understanding these fees.

So, be on the look out for a new fee.. the "FCC is trying to make fees more transparent and understandable" fee..

In the end it's very simple.. the fee WILL be gathered one way or another be it in higher handset costs and installation/activation fees, OR, in higher rates charged to the consumer for air-time. I think it's funny,.. the government requires that all citizens take a history course.. and why? It's important to learn history as we're bound to repeat it if we don't.. right? ... I'm guessing that most everyone and anyone in government failed that course.. all they're going to do is spend a lot of money to shift these fees to the consumer in an even MORE less-transparent way...
The problem with replying to you is that you don`t want to listen to anyone. You keep repeating the same things despite numerous people slamming down your faulty logic over and over again.

Take your higher rates charged to the consumer theory for example. If carriers could raise their rates, why would they wait until they were fined? Why leave money on the table? The reality is they can`t raise rates, as they`ve already priced their service at what the uncompetitive market will bear. Arguments like these go way above your intelligence level, however.

Z80A
Premium
join:2009-11-23

If Amy is looking to protect the average Joe against...

...being throttled, she ought to look at the US tax code.

It's no wonder Congressional approval is in the toilet. They all want to look like they're watching out for the little guy just to be constantly putting him/her over a barrel.

pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
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join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD

Useless

As always the FCC misses the mark.

Investigate the hidden fees tacked on to every phone bill that EVERYONE PAYS. Not the fully disclosed and easily dodged fees that FEW PEOPLE PAY.
--
"Net Neutrality" zealots - the people you can thank for your capped Internet service.
michigandave

join:2007-05-16
Fenton, MI

Re: Useless

You get a +1. I'm glad to see someone gets it.
--

sonicmerlin

join:2009-05-24
Cleveland, OH
kudos:1
said by pnh102:

As always the FCC misses the mark.

Investigate the hidden fees tacked on to every phone bill that EVERYONE PAYS. Not the fully disclosed and easily dodged fees that FEW PEOPLE PAY.
They should investigate both.

pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD

Re: Useless

said by sonicmerlin:

They should investigate both.
Why?

Every cell carrier clearly discloses the ETF and the terms under which a customer will pay it. For most people the ETF could be $500 and they would never pay one. There are also numerous ways ETFs can be avoided entirely by canceling unsatisfactory service within the grace period, getting a prepaid phone or paying full price for a phone. Simply put, this is not a big problem.

On the other hand, no cell company is willing to give you an estimate of the hidden fees which are tacked on to a customer's monthly bill prior to purchasing service. Since these companies are clearly able to calculate such fees after the fact, they should be made to do this beforehand as well by including the cost of these fees in the advertised price of the service.

As long as companies are upfront about their fees, then there is no problem.
--
"Net Neutrality" zealots - the people you can thank for your capped Internet service.
sonicmerlin

join:2009-05-24
Cleveland, OH
kudos:1

1 edit

Re: Useless

said by pnh102:

said by sonicmerlin:

They should investigate both.
Why?

Every cell carrier clearly discloses the ETF and the terms under which a customer will pay it. For most people the ETF could be $500 and they would never pay one. There are also numerous ways ETFs can be avoided entirely by canceling unsatisfactory service within the grace period, getting a prepaid phone or paying full price for a phone. Simply put, this is not a big problem.
Even if you bring your own phone or pay full price for a phone, you pay the same monthly rate as someone who acquires a 2 year loan from a carrier. There is thus a strong disincentive to go month to month on a carrier.

ETFs were meant to cover the cost a carrier would incur for providing a new phone to you on a loan if you left early. However, since the real price of the phone is not disclosed, and the ETF is the same for anyone on a 2 year contract, it has since lost its true meaning. ETFs are now simply anti-consumer tools meant to prevent customers from switching to another carrier, allowing carriers to avoid direct competition.

That's why.

pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD

Re: Useless

None of this changes the fact that paying an ETF is strictly the choice of the user. If people do not want to pay an ETF, then they can choose to avoid engaging in the activities that they have agreed would oblige them to paying an ETF.
--
"Net Neutrality" zealots - the people you can thank for your capped Internet service.
Kearnstd
Elf Wizard
Premium
join:2002-01-22
Mullica Hill, NJ
difference is they use those "unfees" as a profit engine and as such lobby against them being removed or worse, being put out in the light at time of sale.
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[65 Arcanist]Filan(High Elf) Zone: Broadband Reports

pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD

Re: Useless

said by Kearnstd:

difference is they use those "unfees" as a profit engine and as such lobby against them being removed or worse, being put out in the light at time of sale.
Lobbyists wouldn't buying if people in power weren't selling. I am sure there is a fair amount of truth in what you say and with that, it just reinforces my point about the FCC being useless in this regard.
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"Net Neutrality" zealots - the people you can thank for your capped Internet service.

GiveEmHell

@comcast.net

Whoops

That was directed at fiber guy, not OP.
These companies are forcing people into feature phones and data plans...you won't be able to get a "dumb phone" on these networks and these contracts are illegal and have doublespeak all over in them. The consumer shouldn't have to have an attorney to pay for a product or service.
The FCC should be shutting the contracts down entirely...no ETF...or else allow the cable providers to start having people sign contracts. Hell, let's make everyone sign contracts to use the whole network infrastructure of the US (insert your country here) and charge 'em if they leave. Good thinkin'!
These companies have been raking it in and raping the consumer for years because of the lack of....let's hear it...regulation.
Look at what the deregulation of electricity did to Kalifornia and the power grid as a whole.
There's a fine line between too much regulation and not any or not enough.
That is what needs to be addressed in this country. On a LEVEL playing field...not one manipulated by either a lobby group or congress.
We cry about the price of fuel and yet the lobbyists and special interest groups won't let you build a refinery in the US and close down half of them.
You then force the existing ones to upgrade capacity WHILE forcing them to clean up the emissions and fuel. Of course, they can't have their board members lose any money, so that cost is passed right back to the consumer.

See 8 replies to this post

KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK
Reviews:
·AT&T DSL Service

To all those who say "It's not their job"

To all those who argue: "It's not their job" or "They are overstepping their authority". I wonder who you should think it be?

Sounds like nobody, right? Consumer is just SOL and must pay, right?

Well, I'm glad someone is at least looking. Hey, we don't have a Department of Consumer affairs. This situation is only going to get worse with recent rulings that open up unrestricted lobbying.

If we had a truly competitive market, this BS wouldn't exist.
--
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." -- Benito Mussolini
MaynardKrebs
Premium
join:2009-06-17
kudos:3
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL

BYOP doesn't result in lower plan rates either

Say you bring your own unsubsidized phone to carrier and sign-up to a plan - with or without a contract.

The carrier does not give you a better price on the plan even though they have ZERO risk of losing money on you due to any quirks in ETF's with respect to recovering the subsidy on a phone they sold you.

Anyone who BYOP to a carrier should never be subjected to ETF's and in fact ought to get a discount on the plan equivalent to the phone subsidy the carrier normally builds-in.
sonicmerlin

join:2009-05-24
Cleveland, OH
kudos:1

Re: BYOP doesn't result in lower plan rates either

said by MaynardKrebs:

Say you bring your own unsubsidized phone to carrier and sign-up to a plan - with or without a contract.

The carrier does not give you a better price on the plan even though they have ZERO risk of losing money on you due to any quirks in ETF's with respect to recovering the subsidy on a phone they sold you.

Anyone who BYOP to a carrier should never be subjected to ETF's and in fact ought to get a discount on the plan equivalent to the phone subsidy the carrier normally builds-in.
It`s not a subsidy, it`s a loan. And yes, you`re right they should not be forced to pay money on a loan that they didn`t even take.

GiveEmHell

@comcast.net

Re: BYOP doesn't result in lower plan rates either

Nothings is being subsidized...that is what the carriers want you to believe. There are sites out there that show the actual costs of the phones components. Now, R&D and marketing and profit has to be figured in, but don't let 'em fool ya with the subsidy BS.

PTB

@charter.com

ETF

Buying a phone outright does not necessarily mean there will be no ETF. Most plans go off of a contract which if not fulfilled results in an ETF. The only way to be sure there is no ETF is to go prepaid. For a company to incorporate an ETF into monthly payments is bs. What if you complete your contract? Are they going to give that fee back? I doubt it. I think at most you should only be required to give a months notice before termination and nothing else if you have paid full price for the phone. That is even stretching it. I personally feel that if you buy your phone outright you should only have to pay for time used.
qworster

join:2001-11-25
Bryn Mawr, PA

A question...

Why do so many big business/corporate SHILLS hang out here?

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