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story category Per-Byte Broadband Billing Is Neither Necessary Nor Inevitable
Many in industry think flat-rate pricing is going nowhere
01:01PM Friday Oct 09 2009 by Karl Bode
tags: prices · business · alternatives · bandwidth · Op/Ed · consumers
While ISPs (and the investors who love them) would like the public to believe that metered billing is inevitable, not everybody in the industry agrees. Ed Gubbins over at Telephony Online takes an interesting detour from the traditional pro-metered position of most loyal trade magazines, talking to industry vendors who don't see per-byte billing as the end all be all of broadband. Arbor Networks network scientist Craig Labovitz, for one, sees the industry settling on flat-rate pricing because of "simplicity":
"Generally stuff starts out flat-rate, and it’s very expensive for a select few," Labovitz said, citing the telegraph and the telephone as examples. "Then as it becomes more ubiquitous, it becomes metered as you try to relax capacity…and you try to dis-incentivize people from using your capacity. And then it ends up being flat-rate again as ultimately there’s a strong economic [force toward] consumers preferring simplicity as a key metric."
Some operators already see this -- Cablevision recently noting how they weren't keen on metered billing because it confuses users, and they want customers to use more of their product, not less. Despite inferences to the contrary, carriers make more than enough money off of flat-rate pricing to fund network upgrades. Indeed, Gubbins goes on to cite a recent scientific study that notes the high cost and complexity (ask Canadian cable operator Cogeco) of metering your users only really makes sense if you want people using less of your product:
"The cost of collecting charges on each transaction, both in real terms for the operator and the user and in dissuading total demand by increasing marginal costs…makes [metering] too expensive,” the authors wrote, adding that metering does make sense in some cases, "When the aim is less to collect revenues and more to discourage usage."
A lot of people who buy the idea that per-byte billing is the obvious, fair evolution of broadband pricing (like Slate did this week) haven't usually thought about how per-byte billing is expensive (for carriers and users), confusing, technically annoying, leads to potential anti-competitive abuses, and when envisioned by most carriers -- not particularly centered toward delivering value to consumers. While there's a lot of rhetoric coming from carriers, lobbyists and investors claiming a shift to per-byte billing is both necessary and inevitable. It's neither.

Related:
  1. Hey NY Times: Broadband Coverage Gaps Are Not 'Hooey'
  2. Cable: Let Us Experiment With Pricing Or The Internet Explodes
  3. Verizon's New Wireless Pricing Is An Insult
  4. FCC To Investigate Special Access Pricing
  5. Mandatory Smartphone Data Plans Seem Hypocritical
  6. TDS Telecom Launches 50 Mbps Fiber
  7. ISPs Don't Really Want Per Byte Billing
  8. Verizon Again Hints At Metered Billing
Forums » Per-Byte Broadband Billing Is Neither Necessary Nor Inevitable
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PhoenixDown
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Flate rate is also easier to forcast

Mary Jo and Bob may decide its a tight month and use less bandwidth this month meaning lower revenues. Its hard to predict those ups and downs.
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insomniac84

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Re: Flate rate is also easier to forcast

And then they lose their house if they get hacked?

baineschile
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Re: Flate rate is also easier to forcast

said by insomniac84 See Profile :

And then they lose their house if they get hacked?
obviously if a customer is regularly using less than a gig per month, and then one month they have 500+ and get a huge bills, ISPs should be willing to deal with these situations smoothly.

jmn1207
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Re: Flate rate is also easier to forcast

Well, if the wireless industry is any indication of how these scenarios would be handled, they only get smoothed-over once the media makes a big stink out of the situation and it becomes a public relations disaster.

Jason Levine
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1 edit
If the reports of cell phone users accidentally incurring huge roaming charges are any indication, the ISPs will reduce the user's $100,000 one month bill to a more affordable $10,000.

EDIT: I should really read existing replies before I reply. jmn1207 See Profile said essentially the same thing.

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jmn1207
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Re: Flate rate is also easier to forcast

My lawyers will be contacting you.

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Re: Flate rate is also easier to forcast

said by jmn1207 See Profile :

My lawyers will be contacting you.
lmao

battleop

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Yea, because the customer should never be held liable anything.
backness

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Re: Flate rate is also easier to forcast

cmon

Do you really think a Home Cable modem connection could be worth any more than an absolute MAXIMUM of say $300 per month?

(not that I agree with any over charges)

insomniac84

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Re: Flate rate is also easier to forcast

said by backness See Profile :

cmon

Do you really think a Home Cable modem connection could be worth any more than an absolute MAXIMUM of say $300 per month?

(not that I agree with any over charges)
Pretty much. See a month is a finite period of time. So with a 15mbit connection, at an overestimate of 10 cents a gigabyte, you would pay a max of 475 dollars a month. If you use a more reasonable cost of 1 cent a gigabyte it only costs a max of $47.50.

But ISPs don't buy metered bandwidth from anyone. They just buy bulk symmetric connections. So there is no real cost per gigabyte anywhere in the system. It's just invented. There is no real cost per usage.

That is why fixed cost lines make sense. As bandwidth has nothing to do with the cost. The cost is the wires and the equipment connecting the wires and the maintenance. These are the same for everyone no matter how much they use.
backness

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1 edit

Re: Flate rate is also easier to forcast

well in canada, they charge 1 dollar per gigabyte so your 10cents is way off

Edit:speelin

nonanonymous

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Absolving the consumer of responsibility (once again) for maintaining their systems securely. Great.

baineschile
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I think per-byte billing is inevitable; but most companies will offer an unlimited option

insomniac84

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Re: Flate rate is also easier to forcast

No way. The issue with it will be cost. Companies will only move to it if it ensures them more money.

If you are paying 40 bucks a month right now for unlimited and they cap that at 10gb and charge 1 dollar for each additional GB, your bill is going to go up. No one would save anything.

The fact that there are stock based companies makes it illegal for them to change their billing in any way that involves the customers paying less money.

I would hope customers will continue to oppose metered billing for these obvious reasons.

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Re: Flate rate is also easier to forcast

said by insomniac84 See Profile :

If you are paying 40 bucks a month right now for unlimited and they cap that at 10gb and charge 1 dollar for each additional GB, your bill is going to go up. No one would save anything.
Assuming that you use more than 10gb, yes

CylonRed
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If they price it right - unlimited can be a top tier for those folks wanting it and they can do metered below. If they can price it that they make more money while customers are willing to pay for it (kinda like cell service now) then yes - it will happen and the companies will make more money.
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Re: Flate rate is also easier to forcast

The problem is the cell phone companies build the network, they do not pay per byte so it makes no sense to charge customers per byte.

Paying per byte does not allow more users since everyone can still flood the network at the same time.
The only benefit for paying per byte is the company makes more money.
There is no benefit to customers who now have to pay more for usage.

Also, do not forget that per byte billing is crazy since you have no control over the size of the websites you go to and then you can't use any streaming services like radio (xm), tv (hulu), or streaming movies (netflix).

If it is up to customers they will never charge per byte.
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CylonRed
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Re: Flate rate is also easier to forcast

quote:
The only benefit for paying per byte is the company makes more money.
There is no benefit to customers who now have to pay more for usage.
Of course the only benefit to per byte is more money for the company - kinda the reason it is in business.

If they price unlimited high enough to make a good amount more while people perceive the value is worth it - then it will be done.

So far - I have yet to see a company have all, or even a majority, of its customers leave when per byte billing has been implemented. As such - it won't be going away soon. Prices are very rarely solely up to the customer.
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r81984
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Re: Flate rate is also easier to forcast

Customers can't leave because most ISPs are monopolies and they work together with competitors to be able to charge more.
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nixen
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said by CylonRed See Profile :

So far - I have yet to see a company have all, or even a majority, of its customers leave when per byte billing has been implemented. As such - it won't be going away soon. Prices are very rarely solely up to the customer.
How long you been using the internet?

Back in the mid 90s, most ISPs were charging for connect time (not bytes). Any time one or more ISPs in the area offered an unlimited connect time, people BAILED on the connect time chargers.

Then again, people used to have quite a few choices of providers in many markets. Now? There's mostly, at best, duopolies. People *can't* bail. And, even if they can, it makes no sense to do so because the two "competitors" have pretty much the same rate structures in place.

So, yeah, with the markets the way they are, now, you won't see much migration when a company does something egregious. Doesn't mean customers wouldn't leave if they had other, real options.
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Re: Flate rate is also easier to forcast

said by nixen See Profile :

Back in the mid 90s, most ISPs were charging for connect time (not bytes). Any time one or more ISPs in the area offered an unlimited connect time, people BAILED on the connect time chargers.
That's because there was more money to be made selling "unlimited" services at $19.95 to the average person rather than billing the average subscriber $9/mo in usage charges. Sure, there are people that spent well above that, but the average subscriber paid much more under flat rate billing than they would otherwise.

Peace of mind is a lucrative business. Just look at all the money companies make selling "extended warranties." For every 1 person that comes out well ahead there are at least 100 people that lose money in the interest of "financial safety."

Chris G

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Bingo thank you!

Also these are "regulated" utilities granted local licenses for the privilege to operate as such. If these companies could charge $10,000 per person they would. These companies are of course for profit for their owners.

The local governments also has right and obligation to keep the companies in check from pillaging the people who live in that community.

CylonRed
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Been using for quite a long time - I stand by my statements and have yet to see users bail big time for those ISPs for broadband - till then...
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said by r81984 See Profile :

The problem is the cell phone companies build the network, they do not pay per byte so it makes no sense to charge customers per byte.
This is one of the reasons that broadband and wireless data is lagging behind backbone infrastructure. At the carrier level you pay by commit level and 95th percentile utilization, or you pay full circuit unmetered rates. Usage-based pricing at the carrier level created a system by which escalating usage created increasing levels of cash flow which provided the necessary funding to rapidly build to meet demand.

Flat, fixed-rate pricing provides you with consistent income, but your upgrade cycles are fixed -- you don't have a rapid inflow of cash should demand outpace predicted growth, and the opportunity to fall short is ever present.

said by r81984 See Profile :

Also, do not forget that per byte billing is crazy since you have no control over the size of the websites you go to and then you can't use any streaming services like radio (xm), tv (hulu), or streaming movies (netflix).
That's a scare tactic that's frequently thrown out, but it's not true at all. People are using these services today and ISPs are paying their upstream network providers based on usage. The cost of electricity didn't stop people from buying more electrical appliances; if a technology has merit it will still be used.

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Re: Flate rate is also easier to forcast

said by espaeth See Profile :

said by r81984 See Profile :

The problem is the cell phone companies build the network, they do not pay per byte so it makes no sense to charge customers per byte.
This is one of the reasons that broadband and wireless data is lagging behind backbone infrastructure. At the carrier level you pay by commit level and 95th percentile utilization, or you pay full circuit unmetered rates. Usage-based pricing at the carrier level created a system by which escalating usage created increasing levels of cash flow which provided the necessary funding to rapidly build to meet demand.

Flat, fixed-rate pricing provides you with consistent income, but your upgrade cycles are fixed -- you don't have a rapid inflow of cash should demand outpace predicted growth, and the opportunity to fall short is ever present.

said by r81984 See Profile :

Also, do not forget that per byte billing is crazy since you have no control over the size of the websites you go to and then you can't use any streaming services like radio (xm), tv (hulu), or streaming movies (netflix).
That's a scare tactic that's frequently thrown out, but it's not true at all. People are using these services today and ISPs are paying their upstream network providers based on usage. The cost of electricity didn't stop people from buying more electrical appliances; if a technology has merit it will still be used.
That makes no sense. You are getting usage and customers mixed up.
With a flat rate when they get an influx of new customers and they will make more money right away from the flat rate fees.
Also, electricity rates are regulated, the cost of a byte is not. Consumable electricity generation cost is also variable based on how much electricity is generated. The cost of building a network is fixed and electricity usage is basically fixed (since its price is regulated). Regardless if you are only using half the bandwidth of a strand of fiber or all of it, the cost does not change.

Everything with an ISP is a fixed cost. They pay for the internet connection, they pay for equipment, they pay for tech support, etc. It makes no sense to have a variable pricing when all the costs you have is fixed based on the number of customers you have.
They have to pay the full network costs regardless if customers use their full connections or not.

All these companies will do with pay per byte is set a high per byte price that at least give them the same amount of money they get with the fixed pricing so they can still pay all their fixed costs. Then what happens is the customers that actually use their internet connections get gouged with higher fees while very few people who barely use their internet connections actually save some money.
If they actually had a fair realistic pay per byte fee where they divided up the fixed costs by how much bandwidth they have available then we would all be paying less and they would lose money.

Why would you want customers to pay higher fees?
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Re: Flate rate is also easier to forcast

said by r81984 See Profile :

With a flat rate when they get an influx of new customers and they will make more money right away from the flat rate fees.
That only works until you saturate a market to the point that new subscriber sign-up rates drop off. Of course, the barrier for entry is huge for new providers; the cost of broadband is artificially low because existing cable plant is being leveraged in the majority of installations. Telcos and MSOs were able to leverage a vast copper cable plant already in the ground paid for by the high profit margins of other services deployed on those lines for decades. Nobody can complete to just come in and offer a data-only service offering, which is why you are seeing even in the case of muni deployments that they need to supply the triple play of phone, TV, and Internet to make the cost structure work.

said by r81984 See Profile :

Also, electricity rates are regulated, the cost of a byte is not. Consumable electricity generation cost is also variable based on how much electricity is generated.
Electric utility rates are not regulated in every state, and the cost is not per byte -- it's in the percentage of infrastructure consumed by utilization. That's why it's a sliding scale at various points along the network and there isn't a fixed "per byte" cost universally.

said by r81984 See Profile :

The cost of building a network is fixed and electricity usage is basically fixed (since its price is regulated). Regardless if you are only using half the bandwidth of a strand of fiber or all of it, the cost does not change.
Once you reach the capacity of your infrastructure it's forklift upgrades to provide expansion. Capacity upgrades are not linear, it's a step function. You want to improve DOCSIS cable rates, you have to replace your CMTS with one that supports DOCSIS 3.0. You want to upgrade to ADSL2+, you need to replace all of your field DSLAMs to units that support the new protocol.

said by r81984 See Profile :

Everything with an ISP is a fixed cost. They pay for the internet connection, they pay for equipment, they pay for tech support, etc. It makes no sense to have a variable pricing when all the costs you have is fixed based on the number of customers you have.
They have to pay the full network costs regardless if customers use their full connections or not.
You're leaving out one massive variable: oversubscription. The sum total of all of the subscriber access connections is greater than the capacity of the ISP's network. As usage at the edge increases, elements of the network must be upgraded to support the greater capacity demand. If the network were provisioned at 1:1 even throughput you would never be able to afford your broadband connection. (look at the pricing for T1, DS3 services as a start to index on pricing)

said by r81984 See Profile :

Why would you want customers to pay higher fees?
I want a model that supports growth. If I want to consume 1500GB/mo at home, I want a system in place that would both allow me to do that and provide a financial incentive for companies to grow their network to be able to sell me more bandwidth. That model has delivered massive gains to the web hosting market space over the last few years, there is no reason that it couldn't deliver the same possibilities for end-user access.

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Re: Flate rate is also easier to forcast

Flat rate supports growth. They just have to set a price that is profitable for them and can fund their upgrades.
If you saturate the market and your price is set correctly then you are making so much money you don't have to worry about ripping your customers off with per byte billing.
If they oversubscribe they get more money from the extra customers to pay for upgrades.
Problem solved.

If you actually do a fair implementation of per byte billing (all the fixed costs divided by the available bandwidth) then they will not be charging enough to afford to upgrade anything unless their available bandwidth is always maxed out.

Flat rate is fair and gives them the money to hire employees, upgrade equipment, and to provide bandwidth. Fair per byte billing will put them out of business.
If there are people that do not want to use all of their bandwidth then, oh well. The fee is for a 24/7 connection, just because you do not use it 24/7 does not mean all the fixed costs to provide that connection just disappear.

A flat rate is the fairest way to pay for the network and to keep it funded for upgrades.
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Re: Flate rate is also easier to forcast

Don't get me wrong, I love the current flat rate structure, but the ISP does not have nearly as much control under this type of system.

By offering flat rates, as the technology moves forward and the speed and latency improves, it opens the door for innovative new products to establish themselves in the market, and with these new products comes consumer demand. The ISP's want to have as much control over when and where they spend resources on improvements. A per-byte billing structure offers far greater control over this aspect, as a properly implemented billing strategy would force customers to ration their bandwidth usage, while creating the ability for the ISP's to manage their revenues more precisely.

It's the dumb pipe panic. Per-byte billing is the most logical method for keeping things under control until the ISP's comes up with their own solutions that they can provide to customers in a way that just barely skirts the anti-competitive laws, gives them nearly exclusive control, and nets the largest profit.

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Re: Flate rate is also easier to forcast

said by jmn1207 See Profile :

Don't get me wrong, I love the current flat rate structure, but the ISP does not have nearly as much control under this type of system.

By offering flat rates, as the technology moves forward and the speed and latency improves, it opens the door for innovative new products to establish themselves in the market, and with these new products comes consumer demand. The ISP's want to have as much control over when and where they spend resources on improvements. A per-byte billing structure offers far greater control over this aspect, as a properly implemented billing strategy would force customers to ration their bandwidth usage, while creating the ability for the ISP's to manage their revenues more precisely.

It's the dumb pipe panic. Per-byte billing is the most logical method for keeping things under control until the ISP's comes up with their own solutions that they can provide to customers in a way that just barely skirts the anti-competitive laws, gives them nearly exclusive control, and nets the largest profit.
Per byte takes the control away from ISPs and makes it harder for them to make the profit they want because monthly usage can change drastically.
Since all the costs are fixed regardless of usage if usage is low one month they are screwed.

It is simple since the costs are fixed and do not increase or decrease with usage it makes no sense to charge by usage.
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Re: Flate rate is also easier to forcast

said by r81984 See Profile :

said by jmn1207 See Profile :

Don't get me wrong, I love the current flat rate structure, but the ISP does not have nearly as much control under this type of system.

By offering flat rates, as the technology moves forward and the speed and latency improves, it opens the door for innovative new products to establish themselves in the market, and with these new products comes consumer demand. The ISP's want to have as much control over when and where they spend resources on improvements. A per-byte billing structure offers far greater control over this aspect, as a properly implemented billing strategy would force customers to ration their bandwidth usage, while creating the ability for the ISP's to manage their revenues more precisely.

It's the dumb pipe panic. Per-byte billing is the most logical method for keeping things under control until the ISP's comes up with their own solutions that they can provide to customers in a way that just barely skirts the anti-competitive laws, gives them nearly exclusive control, and nets the largest profit.
Per byte takes the control away from ISPs and makes it harder for them to make the profit they want because monthly usage can change drastically.
Since all the costs are fixed regardless of usage if usage is low one month they are screwed.

It is simple since the costs are fixed and do not increase or decrease with usage it makes no sense to charge by usage.
If history is any indication of how the pricing would work, the ISP's are not going to create a situation that would cause them to lose money per subscriber. Nobody would be getting a price break with per-byte billing. The entry tier would be no less than your current, coveted fixed rate billing. The only difference would be the drastic change in the amount you would be able to download before incurring expensive overage charges, and they would probably create a "complimentary" tier that cost quite a bit more for those wishing to increase their monthly limits.

A per-byte format would never allow for 75% of the current internet subscribers to save a few dollars because of their limited amount of usage. That is not what this is about. It's all about making it impossible for anybody to use a bandwidth intensive product without either paying an outrageous amount of money, or by using something provided solely by the ISP, on their terms, and at their cost, with no legitimate competition.

JKM

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How do you figure an ISP's bandwidth is a fixed cost? And there bandwidth transportation? And their electric costs which rise with usage? And their maintenance which rises with usage? And on and on. Rent, Leases and such are fixed costs. Not most other costs. Truck rolls increase with usage and do support costs. What is your business experience?
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Lazlow

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1 edit

Re: Flate rate is also easier to forcast

JKM

Their bandwidth costs (both hardware and transit) are based on peak Mbps not GBs per month. The equipment has to be running 24/7 and the electricity use difference between fully loaded and idle is really minuscule. A fiber/coax/etc will require the same maintenance no matter what the load is on that transport media. How do you figure the number of truck rolls increase with usage? The two greatest enemies of this type of equipment is time and exposure(both of which are essentially a fixed cost).

JKM

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Re: Flate rate is also easier to forcast

The ISP I speak of is a WISP, so the load on the radios does change the equation. The more use increases the more the customers have problems, more truck rolls. Usage does affect costs on the last mile infrastructure.

Don't get me wrong.......I don't support caps. Caps are merely the way the monopolies and duopolies, who control the middle mile infrastructure, discourage use.
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espaeth

You know very well that ISPs do NOT pay by the gigabyte. Both their transit costs and hardware cost are solely based upon peak Mbps. So ANY GBs downloaded during off peak hours incur no additional costs (as in zero) for the ISP.

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Re: Flate rate is also easier to forcast

said by Lazlow See Profile :

You know very well that ISPs do NOT pay by the gigabyte.
Please point out where I said they did.

said by Lazlow See Profile :

Both their transit costs and hardware cost are solely based upon peak Mbps.
Which is exactly what I stated.

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said by insomniac84 See Profile :

The fact that there are stock based companies makes it illegal for them to change their billing in any way that involves the customers paying less money.
That statement is SO WRONG. Directors have a fiduciary duty(that is a civil term and not criminal, so no illegality is involved) to maximize investors return on their investments.

And maximizing profit has NOTHING to do with customers paying more or less money. All customers can pay less, but if there are many more customers as a result, then profits can still be maximized, thereby satisfying fiduciary duty requirements.
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ominae

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More money is exactly why they would move to it.

If metered billing was necessary for their survival, all an ISP would have to do is show numbers proving it. They could put out details showing how they spend so much for bandwidth, so much for network maintenance, so much on labor costs and so on. No one has done so because it isn't true. The numbers on their 10-K forms prove it.

It's greed at it's worst. It's not enough to make a reasonable profit anymore, everyone is trying to impress the shareholders by showing a bigger gain quarter after quarter. They try to monetize everything. It's why they sell your personal info and browsing habits. Like I want you to "share" my info with "select" (read: anyone who can write a check) partners to offer me new and exciting products and services?

It's why ISP's have an illogical fear of being just an ISP. It's a sick cycle. You get a company who does one thing well and makes a decent profit doing it. Then they get greedy and decide they want to "diversify" and buy into different businesses which they think makes sense. This continues until they start losing money quarter after quarter. They eventually spin off or sell the failed businesses, putting out a press release saying it will allow them to "focus on our core business", which is where the focus should have been from day one. Meanwhile the customer has to pay for their mistakes in the form of higher bills (special thanks to Time Warner for allowing me to subsidize the money pit known as AOL).

AlfredNewman

@bankone.com

Re: Flate rate is also easier to forecast

I can understand where you're coming from baineschile but
as the title states, its neither necessary nor inevitable. If anything history, other countries, and consumers has taught us is that flat-rate is the way of broadband. It always comes back full-circle to it. It's simpler and cheaper and that is what the average American is looking for. Not to mention all of the internet-able devices out there that thrive on the ability to use that broadband connection for streaming movies, medical information, downloading/playing video games, ,VoIP, video conferencing, VPN for work at home users, etc... I believe not only do you stifle innovation but you also say you're willing to financially rape consumers for something that an ISP pays pennies on a dollar for during a recession but if you're killing to do teired services you better be prepared to either deduct the amount owed for what I didn't use or let me carry over what amount I did not use to the next month with no cut-off dates.

nixen
Rockin' the Boxen
Premium
join:2002-10-04
Alexandria, VA
·Cox HSI
·Speakeasy

Re: Flate rate is also easier to forcast

said by baineschile See Profile :

I think per-byte billing is inevitable; but most companies will offer an unlimited option
Yes, but as we've seen, over and over, "unlimited" is rarely unlimited in the sense that most people understand the term to mean.
--
The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. -- Bertrand Russell

Eat Me

join:2002-09-25
Sussex, NJ

Either - or, neither - nor

So per-byte broadband billing is neither necessary nor inevitable.

DataDoc
My avatar looks like me, if I was 2D.
Premium
join:2000-05-14
Greenville, NC

Re: Either - or, neither - nor

Thank you, Miss Crabtree.

jmn1207
Premium
join:2000-07-19
Reston, VA
·Verizon FIOS

Keep the Dream Alive

Unfortunately, per-byte-billing, as will certainly be implemented by the industry, offers higher profits while stifling innovation. These are 2 important bonuses for the corporations. The necessary money and control may not be available to make this happen now, but they are getting there.

See 15 replies to this post
chronoss2009

join:2008-09-23
·TekSavvy Solutions..

who gets most affected by per byte

disabled
low income
low min wage workers

unaffected:
rich
spoiled brats

---------------
effect:
when you remove all the above the excuse to NOT buy what is there is gone aka you had to be wealthy enough for internet after all. This is the next phase of these moves.

nixen
Rockin' the Boxen
Premium
join:2002-10-04
Alexandria, VA
·Cox HSI
·Speakeasy

Re: who gets most affected by per byte

said by chronoss2009 See Profile :

disabled
???

said by chronoss2009 See Profile :

low income
low min wage workers
Isn't that kind of redundant? I know you need to try to come up with a "long enough" list, but still...

At any rate... I know that I would be effected and I don't fall into the "low income"/"low min wage workers" group. Why? Because I telecommute. There's quite a bit of bandwidth such activities chew up. If doing so becomes too expensive, then I'll just switch back to driving to work.

Hmm... Perhaps the HSI services could be blocked on this based on environmental impact...

said by chronoss2009 See Profile :

unaffected:
rich
spoiled brats
Not, *quite* accurate. You assume that the "rich spoiled brats" are heavy enough users to be effected. Seems a dubious supposition at best.

Of those that actually do use enough, they'll still be effected, it's just that it will have a lower relative impact.

said by chronoss2009 See Profile :

---------------
effect:
when you remove all the above the excuse to NOT buy what is there is gone aka you had to be wealthy enough for internet after all. This is the next phase of these moves.
Care to be more incoherent?
--
The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. -- Bertrand Russell

birdfeedr
Premium,MVM
join:2001-08-11
Warwick, RI

Funny thing...

is that the same companies who want to impose per-byte billing are opposed to a la carte video.

I'd accept the one as long as it was accompanied by the other. *And* I had an option to choose a different vendor.

espaeth
Digital Plumber
Premium,MVM
join:2001-04-21
Minneapolis, MN
·voip.ms
·Vitelity VOIP
·Callcentric
·VoiceStick
·ViaTalk
·Comcast
·Embarq

Re: Funny thing...

said by birdfeedr See Profile :

is that the same companies who want to impose per-byte billing are opposed to a la carte video.
I wasn't aware that companies like Disney, Viacom, and NBC/Universal were pushing for per-byte billing?

The MSOs and Telcos are just middle men when it comes to TV -- whether it's delivered through traditional QAM channel delivery or delivered via IP packets, these companies are just transporting content from producers to end users. The MSOs are stuck buying the groupings that the content producers are willing to sell -- that's why every PayTV provider's channel package is almost identical.

birdfeedr
Premium,MVM
join:2001-08-11
Warwick, RI
·Verizon FIOS

Re: Funny thing...

said by espaeth See Profile :

The MSOs and Telcos are just middle men when it comes to TV -- whether it's delivered through traditional QAM channel delivery or delivered via IP packets, these companies are just transporting content from producers to end users. The MSOs are stuck buying the groupings that the content producers are willing to sell -- that's why every PayTV provider's channel package is almost identical.
Good point. Thanks.

IceCreamHead

@xo.net

But using less of the network WAS Slate's point.

AT&T's networks ARE congested, so the company DOES want people to use less bandwidth. It might not make sense for Verizon (my provider), but their network isn't as bogged down by traffic.

bender
Bite my shiny metal ass
Premium
join:2005-03-19
Evanston, IL
clubs:

Re: But using less of the network WAS Slate's point.

are you talking about their wireless network or their dsl/uverse networks? I have never had my dsl connection get bogged down by anyone but myself. I always have at least 85% of the advertised speed and my latency is great.
Network Guy

join:2000-08-25
New York
·PHONE POWER
·Broadvox Direct
·Verizon Online DSL

We need pro-people lobbyists

We need someone powerful to tell the ISPs to STFU.

It's bullshit how per-byte billing is inevitable when all the TV commercials rave about downloading files and video in seconds. It's becoming bait-and-switch.. Why sell a "value" that to a customer who's bound to get fucked by it?

ISPs will get what they're not looking for.. Less capital investment on infrastructure... and less customer revenue.. 'cause anyone with a brain can't be an idiot enough to keep paying for something as Draconian as what they're suggesting to do.
jjeffeory

join:2002-12-04
USA

Re: We need pro-people lobbyists

The govt is supposed to be out "pro-people" advocate. Basically our lobbyist. They've kind of failed on that.
Network Guy

join:2000-08-25
New York

Re: We need pro-people lobbyists

I should have said we need to buy pro-people lobbyists.
chronoss2009

join:2008-09-23
·TekSavvy Solutions..


1 edit

yea we need pro people lobbysits

prob is what happens is they get bogged down in more and more moral "save the kids crap" well we are the fraking kids and we are sick and tired of the BULLSHIT

lawyers are also sadly needed and they cost money and support the very system we are in fact fighting.
one idea is that if you get enough of those people together you can threaten that YOU WILL DO your own networks and who cares id rather give 5$ a month to sme org fighting for that then isps that just use it to buy the next mansion and enslave us further.

IF citizen groups acorss all the planet starting suing to open up access to and for last mile areas YOU'D SEE CHANGE RIGHT DAMN FAST as they panic large.

LOOK at the costs in BC at that one isp offering wicked deal and how shaw deals with it....
Still do not bite do not eat there deals do not buy into there ocntinued existance. THat would take time , money and effort but a few years form now would clean up a lot a crap idiot CEOS that do not realize its US PEOPLE THAT FEED YOUR ROLLS ROYCES
nonymous

join:2003-09-08
Glendale, AZ

Who is looking out for the telcos.

They have CEOs and investors that need their golden parachutes. I really thing it needs to be per bit. Plus when the telcos are poor they could just dos you thus raising your bill for their needed extra cash. Its for the telcos. Is everyone here heartless. Anyone checking more than a few emails a month is a heavy user. Think the olden days. This is a luxury item so I know you can afford to pay so the CEO gets his well deserved raise.
When Gore invented the net I bet even he foresaw the need to charge per bit.
If all you need is bandwidth go carrier pidgeon. It is slower but like I read just strap a large USB on them and send on their way. Work for pidgeon feed. Plus bandwidth limited only to what they can carry.

See 6 replies to this post
yt
Premium
join:2008-06-03

1 edit

"talking to industry vendors who don't see ..."

Are those the same industry vendors who make more money the larger the networks grow?

Will Craig supply the carriers more Arbor boxes to measure the traffic (without incremental spend)
old_wiz_60

join:2005-06-03
Bedford, MA
·Verizon FIOS

A side effect...

would be greatly increased use and effectiveness of adblocking software for web browsers, be it Internet Explorer, Firefox, Safari, or Opera. No one wants to pay extra to see stupid ads. The advertisers would not like that, but if we have to specifically pay for advertising on a per bit basis, I'd do everything I could to avoid getting ads in the first place. People that make adons that block ads would get a big increase in business.
jimbopalmer
Tsar of all the Rushers

join:2008-06-02
Greenwood, MS
·Windjammer Cable

Per-Byte Billing Is Neither Necessary Nor Inevitable

I would be perfectly happy with per byte billing so long as the meter starts at $0.00 and then measures my usage. I have no interest in measured rates in addition to my flat rate.
--
I tried to remain child-like, all I achieved was childish.

RARPSL

join:1999-12-08
Suffern, NY

Re: Per-Byte Billing Is Neither Necessary Nor Inevitable

said by jimbopalmer See Profile :

I would be perfectly happy with per byte billing so long as the meter starts at $0.00 and then measures my usage. I have no interest in measured rates in addition to my flat rate.
This is not a logical method. There needs to be be a minimal flat rate for your connection and a metered rate for the USE of the connection. No matter how much or little you use, there is still a cost for the ability to use the connection that you need to pay. When the metered (or capped) plans are talked about, the fixed and variable costs are commingled to mess up the analysis. The poster up-thread who asked for a rebate or roll-over for under use has the right idea in the commingled method. You are paying the fixed fee and a lump sum for the first x units of use. Thus if you do not use all of your paid for usage it SHOULD be rolled over to the next period (with periodic rebates that wipe out the rolled-over credits but charging you just the base fixed fee for the month).

If you look at the prices for having both Cable TV and Internet you will find that you are giving a $5-10 discount for having both. This means that by their own prices the fixed cost of that connection (with no use) is the $5-10. Thus you should be required to pay this amount JUST TO be able to use the internet and then get billed extra for your usage.

To use an analogy look at your car. You pay a registration fee (Fixed Cost) on the car for having a car to drive. You then pay a variable fee (based on how far you drive it and your cars MPG) when you buy gas for the car.
jjeffeory

join:2002-12-04
USA


1 edit

Re: Per-Byte Billing Is Neither Necessary Nor Inevitable

ISP shouldn't charge for this. They want us as a customer. That is simply the cost of doing business. Next thing you know we will all have to start paying every company in our area because there is a wire or pipe to our homes. I mean, someone needs to maintain those pipes and wires....

All of this should be in the price of the service...
Remember, customers care about the bottom line...
Lazlow

join:2006-08-07
Saint Louis, MO

While I agree that a fixed base charge is reasonable and correct, charging based upon GBs downloaded is not related to the ISPs costs( so the car analogy fails here). Both transit costs and hardware costs are entirely based upon peak Mbps. Any GBs downloaded during non peak hours incurs no additional costs for the ISP, yet they want to charge for them. Since their costs are related to peak Mbps and their (current) tiers are priced by Mbps, the current situation(flat rate) is fair. IF they temporarily need to handle traffic issues during peak hours they can implement proticol agnostic throttling such as what Comcast uses(again temporarily, during peak hours, until capacity can be upgraded). Just look at the ISP's filings, they are not even close to loosing money on the internet side.
jimbopalmer
Tsar of all the Rushers

join:2008-06-02
Greenwood, MS
·Windjammer Cable

said by RARPSL See Profile :

said by jimbopalmer See Profile :

I would be perfectly happy with per byte billing so long as the meter starts at $0.00 and then measures my usage. I have no interest in measured rates in addition to my flat rate.
This is not a logical method. There needs to be be a minimal flat rate for your connection and a metered rate for the USE of the connection. No matter how much or little you use, there is still a cost for the ability to use the connection that you need to pay.
I assure you that both my electricity bill and water bill are 100% based on usage. If I use electricity or water I pay for it, if I don't I don't. The ISPs want HUGE flat rates AND per byte billing. I am happy with flat rate OR per byte billing, but not both.
--
I tried to remain child-like, all I achieved was childish.

jaa
Premium,MVM
join:2000-06-13
·Optimum Online
·Vonage

Metering is not the way to restrict usage...

bandwidth limits is. That is the way the ISPs are going - multiple tiers with different bandwidth limits.

Simple, and provides additional income from higher level users while being affordable to lower level users.
--
NOTHING justifies terrorism. We don't negotiate with terrorists. Those that support terrorists are terrorists.
rick89

join:2003-12-10
Franklin, NC

What about packet loss?

hes another issue. What if the ISP has a crappy network, so your dropping packets that count toward your per/byte and then you have to retransmit the same info, doubling your usage for that packet

espaeth
Digital Plumber
Premium,MVM
join:2001-04-21
Minneapolis, MN
·voip.ms
·Vitelity VOIP
·Callcentric
·VoiceStick
·ViaTalk
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Re: What about packet loss?

said by rick89 See Profile :

hes another issue. What if the ISP has a crappy network, so your dropping packets
Change ISPs.
Lazlow

join:2006-08-07
Saint Louis, MO

Re: What about packet loss?

Not really an option in a lot of markets.

espaeth
Digital Plumber
Premium,MVM
join:2001-04-21
Minneapolis, MN

Re: What about packet loss?

Then move. People move all the time for access to better schools, jobs, transit access, parks, etc. Why should broadband access be any different?
Lazlow

join:2006-08-07
Saint Louis, MO

Re: What about packet loss?

espaeth

Get real. While people do often move for better jobs, only an extremely few move (as in the distance to a market with more ISP options) for the other reasons you listed. All the other reasons you listed you can usually just move to a different section of a town to improve. In most towns one cannot move to another area within the same town(or metro) and change the ISPs one has access to, for the most part each town(or metro) has just one set of choices for ISP.

Duramax08
Oh rly?

join:2008-08-03
San Antonio, TX

Re: What about packet loss?

+1
SuperWISP

join:2007-04-17
Laramie, WY


1 edit

The FCC is poised to make metering inevitable

The FCC is poised to make metering inevitable by imposing "network neutrality" rules which prevent ISPs from shaping traffic and holding back bandwidth hogs. The only way for ISPs to prevent users from consuming more than they are paying for under such a regime -- and meet payroll-- will be to deter them with higher bills.

huntml

join:2002-01-23
Mullica Hill, NJ
·Comcast


1 edit

Re: The FCC is poised to make metering inevitable

said by SuperWISP See Profile :

The FCC is poised to make metering inevitable by imposing "network neutrality" rules which prevent ISPs from shaping traffic and holding back bandwidth hogs. The only way for ISPs to prevent users from consuming more than they are paying for under such a regime -- and meet payroll-- will be to deter them with higher bills.
I disagree with this.

From the standpoint of the network operator, the issue of concern isn't total metered throughput at any given node, it's capacity-hogging at a given node, isn't it? So how's metered billing going to help?

I could run something file-sharing app configured to limit its bandwidth to low levels 24/7/365 and trade many many gigabytes of data and it wouldn't cause my operator any issues at all; OTOH, a guy who runs the same app wide open during peak hours just a couple hours a day could be trading a lot less packets than I do overall, but he could be the one degrading service for the other users sharing his upstream node(s).

I don't see how charging by the byte is going to fix the problem and make the network work better for all users, which is what ISPs are saying is their goal in introducing per-byte billing schemes.

And this being the case, it seems pretty clear to me that calls for metered billing are just a money grab.

Capping users based on some metric getting at the percentage of time they are using really high levels of capacity would seem to make more sense, or even just managing total bandwidth on some sort of equitable, protocol-agnostic basis.

And there is nothing about these sorts of approaches that violates network neutrality principles as far as I can see.

Catmando
Catmando
Premium
join:2002-10-22
Montgomery, IL
clubs:
·AT&T DSL Service
·AT&T Midwest
·AT&T CallVantage

Flat Rate

I disagree that long distance charges were not flat rate from the beginning. They started out per minute’s usage. After being indenated with discrepancies over minute’s usage the Telco’s realized they were spending more on negogeating the billing complaints than making a profit for minute usage.
--
Catmando
Forums » Per-Byte Broadband Billing Is Neither Necessary Nor Inevitable


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