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Porn Publishers' IP-As-Guilt Claims Head to Court
Copyright Trolls Face A Major New Challenge
by Karl Bode 06:17PM Tuesday Oct 09 2012
For the first time, evidence collected by BitTorrent monitoring firms to prove piracy based on IP address alone will be tested in court. According to TorrentFreak, numerous porn publishers are having their copyright troll lawsuits and subpoenas challenged by individuals arguing that an IP address is not enough proof of guilt, and that they're being shaken down by copyright trolls with flimsy evidence.

Pennsylvania District Court Judge Michael Baylson has ordered a Bellwether trial to determine who's right: the porn publishers or those accused of porn piracy. Baylson put it this way in his memorandum:
quote:
“Among other things, the declaration asserts that Plaintiff has brought suit against numerous unnamed defendants simply to extort settlements, that the BitTorrent software does not work in the manner Plaintiff alleges, and that a mere subscriber to an ISP is not necessarily a copyright infringer, with explanations as to how computer-based technology would allow non-subscribers to access a particular IP address.

In other words, according to the declaration, there is no reason to assume an ISP subscriber is the same person who may be using BitTorrent to download the alleged copyrighted material. Similar assertions are made in memoranda filed in support of the other motions.
In many instances, porn publishers concerned that an IP address alone isn't enough proof of guilt have tried to argue that keeping an open hotspot is a crime, something that's been shot down repeatedly by the courts.

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cabana
Department of Adjustments
Premium,Mod
join:2000-07-07
New York, NY

Geico IP insurance

I am guessing at some point ISPs will make you sign a liability statement ... if you "rent an IP from an ISP" then you are responsible for whomever uses it ...(whether or not you use the IP yourself) ...

oh wait ... then ... you could buy liability IP insurance ... hello "Geico" ...

(I am kidding ... or ... am I ? )

Aozora

join:2008-11-28
Reviews:
·Comcast

Re: Geico IP insurance

said by cabana:

I am guessing at some point ISPs will make you sign a liability statement ... if you "rent an IP from an ISP" then you are responsible for whomever uses it ...(whether or not you use the IP yourself) ...

oh wait ... then ... you could buy liability IP insurance ... hello "Geico" ...

(I am kidding ... or ... am I ? )

Does iTunes still offer some crap rate like 128 or 192Kbps? Reason why I never bothered to use it was because the price for the quality that you got was crap. As I grow older I have found out that you always have to pay premium for the good stuff since everyone else is happy with crap. In the online world, the pirated music and movies are of better quality for free. Why pay for lesser quality? If you are going to pay you better be getting the 50GB Blu Ray or the flawless quality song otherwise not worth it.

Nightshade
Premium
join:2002-05-26
Salem, OR

Re: Geico IP insurance

No they don't. Their standard is 256Kps now. Has been since '09. Which isn't bad since 256 is one step below the max of 320 and to be honest you will be hard pressed to hear the difference between those two bit rates.

ITALIAN926

join:2003-08-16
kudos:2
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
quote:
In the online world, the pirated music and movies are of better quality for free. Why pay for lesser quality?
And someone as yourself would pay for the same quality content when given a choice of FREE, or NOT FREE.

One of my favorite things to do online is reading how people justify pirating. LMAO

thegeek
Premium
join:2008-02-21
right here
kudos:2

1 recommendation

Seriously?

Who pirates porn? There are more free tube sites than one could count.

PapaMidnight

join:2009-01-13
Baltimore, MD

Re: Seriously?

Sad but true... but I guess it's put up or shut up time for porn companies.

cdru
Go Colts
Premium,MVM
join:2003-05-14
Fort Wayne, IN
kudos:7

1 recommendation

Besides, anything longer than 30 seconds is usually never seen anyways.
Mr Matt

join:2008-01-29
Eustis, FL
kudos:1
Reviews:
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·Embarq Now Centu..
·Comcast
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Depends on how BiTorrent works?

Some time ago I tried to download documents from a legitimate website and was requested to install BitTorrent Software on my computer. I did not install the software because of the potential of being accused of piracy. Since I do not use BitTorrent Software maybe someone can give me a heads up. Does BitTorrent search for files on every computer running BitTorrent Software for the desired file, or is there a database indicating the IP addresses where the desired files are stored? If the BitTorrent Software searches all computers how would the IP police determine which computers the files were being downloaded from, when many BitTorrent users may not have the files?

Camelot One
Premium,MVM
join:2001-11-21
Greenwood, IN
kudos:2

Re: Depends on how BiTorrent works?

You are thinking of the Kazaa/Napster days where the software would auto-share files/folders, and sometimes even entire hard drives. The torrent protocol requires a torrent file be created for anything that is to be "shared". You would have to manually create the torrent file to share something. And there are a lot of companies using torrents for legitimate distribution, so don't be scared off simply by the software.

cdru
Go Colts
Premium,MVM
join:2003-05-14
Fort Wayne, IN
kudos:7

Re: Depends on how BiTorrent works?

said by Camelot One:

You would have to manually create the torrent file to share something.

Unless you started to download from an existing torrent and then you join the swarming, starting to share the file you're downloading as you download it. It still requires a manual step of clicking the link (or otherwise adding an existing torrent file).

PapaMidnight

join:2009-01-13
Baltimore, MD

1 recommendation

BitTorrent is not KaZaA.

»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BitTorrent···ng_files

88615298
Premium
join:2004-07-28
West Tenness

Devil's advocate

If let someone sell drugs out of my house even though I'm not selling the drugs I can still be in trouble.

delusion ftl

@tmodns.net

Re: Devil's advocate

For selling drugs?
If you are the landlord and your tenant is selling drugs you get in trouble?
If your roommate in your apartment is selling drugs you get in trouble?
If your neighbor comes over and uses your internet connection to stalk or harass you get in trouble? (civil vs criminal)

Um nope. Not unless you are a willing accomplice, which just being the owner of the home does not show.

88615298
Premium
join:2004-07-28
West Tenness

Re: Devil's advocate

said by delusion ftl :

For selling drugs?
If you are the landlord and your tenant is selling drugs you get in trouble?

If you know and you just don't give a shit. yes.

If your roommate in your apartment is selling drugs you get in trouble?

If the cops do a raid and you're there you're going to jail. yes.

If your neighbor comes over and uses your internet connection to stalk or harass you get in trouble? (civil vs criminal)

Once again if you know but don't give a shit, yes.

Um nope. Not unless you are a willing accomplice, which just being the owner of the home does not show.

Well in MY home I'm in charge so yeah I make sure nothing goes on. If something does then someone's day is going to be fucking bad. I guess in today's society being lazy is an excuse. "Oh you can't sue me I had no idea my teen-age son was illegally downloading gigabytes of porn every day. How could I have possibly known that?"

battleop

join:2005-09-28
00000

Re: Devil's advocate

I wish it was that easy. The problem is getting the cops to give a shit and do something.

DataDoc
My avatar looks like me, if I was 2D.
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Martinsburg, WV
Reviews:
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said by 88615298:

Well in MY home I'm in charge so yeah I make sure nothing goes on. If something does then someone's day is going to be fucking bad. I guess in today's society being lazy is an excuse. "Oh you can't sue me I had no idea my teen-age son was illegally downloading gigabytes of porn every day. How could I have possibly known that?"

You're totally forgetting that your IP may be faked by someone. You have no control over that.
--
Calling it "tummy" fat doesn't make it any easier to lose.

DataRiker
Premium
join:2002-05-19
00000

Re: Devil's advocate

He won't answer that question. It blows a hole big enough for a train to pass through in his nobody will get accused unless they are guilty attitude.

I can fake UDP packets right now on my Backtrack distro.
jeffreydean1

join:2010-05-31

1 recommendation

Re: Devil's advocate

Holy hyperbole Batman!
Skippy25

join:2000-09-13
Hazelwood, MO
You are making an awful lot of assumptions as usual and you are speaking of a criminal offense (drugs) compared to a civil offense (copyright infringement).

2 words that can go a long way: Plausible Deni-ability
CXM_Splicer
Looking at the bigger picture
Premium
join:2011-08-11
NYC
kudos:2
If someone gets caught selling drugs in Macy's, does that make the CEO of Federated Dept Stores a drug dealer?

88615298
Premium
join:2004-07-28
West Tenness

Re: Devil's advocate

said by CXM_Splicer:

If someone gets caught selling drugs in Macy's, does that make the CEO of Federated Dept Stores a drug dealer?

Really? more hyperbole please. So a CEO hundreds if not 1000s miles away = homeowner unaware of what other people in his home does?
CXM_Splicer
Looking at the bigger picture
Premium
join:2011-08-11
NYC
kudos:2

1 recommendation

Re: Devil's advocate

Well, hyperbole gets hyperbole... do you really equate letting someone use your Internet connection to selling drugs? If you are already so biased, how can anyone have a legitimate conversation with you?

I assume since you had a problem with the distance from the crime then the store manager for that particular Macy's must be a drug dealer?

DataRiker
Premium
join:2002-05-19
00000

1 edit

Re: Devil's advocate

said by CXM_Splicer:

Well, hyperbole gets hyperbole... do you really equate letting someone use your Internet connection to selling drugs? If you are already so biased, how can anyone have a legitimate conversation with you?

I assume since you had a problem with the distance from the crime then the store manager for that particular Macy's must be a drug dealer?

+1

Spot on.

I guess he believes in guilt by proximity ( LOL )

meeeeeeeeee

join:2003-07-13
Newburgh, NY

Re: Devil's advocate

said by DataRiker:

I guess he believes in guilt by proximity ( LOL )

No, Guilt by accusation by a Supreme Being (a Corporation). If your IP was spoofed you could be 1000 miles away and STILL be guilty in his mind.
--
Isn't it sad that those that raise their right hand and swear "to support and defend the Constitution of the United States of America" are usually the ones most likely to trash it.

88615298
Premium
join:2004-07-28
West Tenness
said by CXM_Splicer:

Well, hyperbole gets hyperbole... do you really equate letting someone use your Internet connection to selling drugs? If you are already so biased, how can anyone have a legitimate conversation with you?

How can I be biased when I've clearly stated I think 6 strikes and laws like it are completely stupid and utterly useless and pointless.

»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devil's_advocate

In common parlance, a devil's advocate is someone who, given a certain argument, takes a position he or she does not necessarily agree with, for the sake of argument. In taking such position, the individual taking on the devil's advocate role seeks to engage others in an argumentative discussion process. The purpose of such process is typically to test the quality of the original argument and identify weaknesses in its structure, and to use such information to either improve or abandon the original, opposing position. It can also refer to someone who takes a stance that is seen as unpopular or unconventional, but is actually another way of arguing a much more conventional stance.
CXM_Splicer
Looking at the bigger picture
Premium
join:2011-08-11
NYC
kudos:2

Re: Devil's advocate

Point taken... but your bias-ness is not in your devils advocate point of view, it is in your hyperbole. Dealing drugs?? Rape?? Come on now...

Your agreement with NormanS is also a little confusing. You are agreeing to how copyright infringement is handled now; if you let someone use your Internet connection knowing they are infringing, you are guilty of contributory infringement. If they use it without your knowledge, you aren't guilty of anything. That is not really a Devil's advocate position.

You also, unfortunately, missed my actual argument: Would your Devil's advocate position then be that the leaders and/or management of a corporation should be held liable for things that go on within their organizations without their knowledge?

meeeeeeeeee

join:2003-07-13
Newburgh, NY
said by 88615298:

said by CXM_Splicer:

If someone gets caught selling drugs in Macy's, does that make the CEO of Federated Dept Stores a drug dealer?

Really? more hyperbole please. So a CEO hundreds if not 1000s miles away = homeowner unaware of what other people in his home does?

So, any time someone uses a pay phone to commit a crime like extortion or bomb threats, the CEO of the company which owns the communication pathway and makes it available to anyone, for a profit, should be arrested as an accomplice? He KNOWS that pay phones are used to commit many crimes, yet because he wishes to make a profit he still makes them anonymously available. Same logic the porn copyright trolls are using.
--
Isn't it sad that those that raise their right hand and swear "to support and defend the Constitution of the United States of America" are usually the ones most likely to trash it.

aciddrink

join:2000-08-26
You need to face it, at this point your argument is garbage. If my grandmother has her router security set to WEP, and her neighbor easily cracks the password then uses her internet for piracy, is she really a criminal?

If my same grandmother who knows nothing about technology leaves her router's wireless wide open, then her neighbor uses her wireless to download music. Is she really a criminal?

According to what you've stated, she is practically dealing meth from her living room. Come on, do you proof-read the things you type?

In this particular situation she isn't *allowing* anybody to use her router. They just are. No different than if you were on vacation and a drug dealer broke into your house and sold drugs out of your living room.

88615298
Premium
join:2004-07-28
West Tenness

Re: Devil's advocate

said by aciddrink:

You need to face it, at this point your argument is garbage. If my grandmother has her router security set to WEP, and her neighbor easily cracks the password then uses her internet for piracy, is she really a criminal?

WEP might as well use nothing. Anyways who said anything about criminal? If you are being taken into court over copyright infringement that's CIVIL case. Perhaps you should brush up on your civics before posting.

aciddrink

join:2000-08-26

Re: Devil's advocate

said by 88615298 See Profile
WEP might as well use nothing. Anyways who said anything about criminal? If you are being taken into court over copyright infringement that's CIVIL case. Perhaps you should brush up on your civics before posting.

You made the correlation between somebody who's internet get unknowingly used, and somebody that knowingly allows a drug dealer to sell out of their house. The ladder clearly being a criminal act. So you are the one that mentioned criminal actions, which is why I then mentioned it. Before you get overly hostile with people on an internet forum, take the time to re-read your previous posts so you can remember what you typed to other people. There is no reason to be so negative.

And yes, WEP is basically nothing. Which is clearly why I mentioned it. Do you think my grandmother knows that WEP "security" isn't very secure? Nope. Should she be grouped into your same category as drug dealers, or somebody that allows drug dealers to sell from her living room? Nope.

Acuity

join:2002-06-22
Londonderry, NH

1 edit
If someone is selling drugs out of your house, there is reason for suspicion. You're there to see what's going on. Most likely you also know what's going on.

There are numerous legitimate reasons why someone would need to borrow your internet connection. Their connection could be down, they might not be able to afford it due to economic reasons, someone not from the area trying to look up a map, etc. Most of said reasons are legit in the eyes of the law (but not necessarily your ISP).

If someone asks to borrow your phone to make a quick call, you don't assume that they're communicating threats or sending inappropriate material to a minor. You assume it's important and try to help a fellow citizen out. The same can be said for someone in need for borrowing your internet access. What if it's not wireless a neighbor needs to borrow your computer to look something up? Do you just kick them out due to liability concerns or spy over their shoulder? Good Samaritan laws should definitely apply.

All WiFi hotspot businesses should come to the defense of this person. If a business can be held liable for content viewed/downloaded, we'll most likely see all WiFi hotspot locations go away. Goodbye Starbucks. I will miss you.

NormanS
I gave her time to steal my mind away
Premium,MVM
join:2001-02-14
San Jose, CA
kudos:12
Reviews:
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said by 88615298:

If let someone sell drugs out of my house even though I'm not selling the drugs I can still be in trouble.

If you specifically, and knowingly allow: Probably.

If someone is doing it out of your sight and knowledge? Investigated, yes, to determine if you are complicit (actively, or passively). But, absent evidence of complicancy, no trouble at all.
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum

••••
MyDogHsFleas
Premium
join:2007-08-15
Austin, TX
kudos:5

Nice move by the judge

Basically he's trying to clarify whether either side has legal legitimacy. I think it's a good way to see if there's basic legitimacy behind (a) the plaintiff's methodology and (b) the defendants' complaints.

I'll go contrarian here and bet that the findings out of the trial will be for the plaintiffs. I could be wrong, but that's my feeling.

47717768
Premium
join:2003-12-08
Birmingham, AL
kudos:2

Porn

Are you kidding me Porn?
Haha. This would be tons of fun in the court room. I mean come on sued for downloading Porn. I understand downloading some mp3s or movies, but porn?

jester121
Premium
join:2003-08-09
Lake Zurich, IL

I volunteer....

.... to do some pro bono (snicker) discovery work for the plaintiffs. Or the defendants. Or maybe the judge can appoint me special master... don't say it....