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Google sure is starting to sound like a telcoGoogle: "Give us what we want or we won't do jack"
State: "Ok. No tax for you."
Google: "OMFG schweet!!... Ok... Google fiberhood for you"
How long before Google Fiber starts seeing price increases across the board? | |
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Re: Google sure is starting to sound like a telcoAlthough the breaks Google is creating are applied to all ISPs in general (not sure if in every city but so far it seems so). Google is making it easier for all ISPs by cutting costs and red tape. | |
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Re: Google sure is starting to sound like a telcoLet's not pretend that this is about Google doing something to benefit everyone. They aren't doing it out of the goodness of their hearts.
They're bullying and cajoling for what they want, and they'll get it because they're Google. The incumbent operators won't be too badly affected by the changes (they're already there and presumably profitable), and it's not a third party is going to build a competing network if Google's the other player.
But it won't stop some of the Google Fibre fanboys simultaneously cheering on Google's bullying and special treatment while suggesting that cable franchise agreements are the devil incarnate. If one's bad, so is the other | |
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5 recommendations |
Re: Google sure is starting to sound like a telcoI've never heard of a Telco offering 7 years of free service (nor symmetrical 1 gig 70 dollar service before now).
Its a trade off, a negotiated deal. The vast majority would here locally are extremely pleased with it.
And if I'm not mistaken Telco's got sweet deals with promises of deliveries that never happened. Google is delivering the goods on first pass.
Just don't see the comparison at all. | |
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Re: Google sure is starting to sound like a telcosaid by DataRiker:I've never heard of a Telco offering 7 years of free service. And because of GFiber, KC got a new Startup Village, $100 unrestricted Gbit for small/med biz, small/med companies that moved/expanded to KC for Gfiber, major Cisco Internet of Things project, free Gbit in public places (libraries/schools) and now there is a plan for pCell network expansion into KC specifically because of GFiber. So yeah, there are justified reasons to be a fan of GFiber if you are in a targeted city. | |
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-1 recommendation |
KennyWest
Anon
2015-Mar-3 12:06 pm
Re: Google sure is starting to sound like a telcoStartup Village is an illegal operation in homes that the city is afraid to go after.
Please show proof that all of this is because of Google. And what are you going to do when they start selling these networks off?? Will Sprint make up for that lost GF money? | |
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1 recommendation |
to DataRiker
said by DataRiker:I've never heard of a Telco offering 7 years of free service (nor symmetrical 1 gig 70 dollar service before now). The former isn't free, it's after you pay a considerable installation fee (and with no legally binding promise of service, it seems - nothing to stop them cancelling service), and the latter isn't particularly outstanding when you consider that Google is able to offer it through massive overselling, since it is unlikely that most users will get close to maxing it out for any length of time. There's also the question of profitability (Google has been tightlipped about this). They can do something unprofitably, as they have massively deep pockets and the suggestions that it's used to push their other services to keep shareholders at bay. The average telco/cableco actually has to make their profits on the service. said by DataRiker:I've never heard of a Telco offering 7 Its a trade off, a negotiated deal. The vast majority would here locally are extremely pleased with it. Of course they'll be pleased with it - they might (possibly, maybe, we'll see) get something out of the bribe. Assuming Google actually gets there and covers their area of course. The point I am making is that Google isn't bullying for the good of everyone - only themselves - and if some people think that benefits them too, then so be it. said by DataRiker:And if I'm not mistaken Telco's got sweet deals with promises of deliveries that never happened. Google is delivering the goods on first pass. Have they reached 100% coverage of Kansas City yet? Personally, I can't wait to see what happens if Google becomes dominant anywhere. The nice fluffy behaviour that they display now (except when using hard ball to get exactly the conditions they want) will surely disappear and the same mannerisms of the telco/cableco duopoly today will creep in. said by DataRiker:Just don't see the comparison at all. That's not surprising. | |
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Re: Google sure is starting to sound like a telco$300 isn't really that "considerable of an installation fee" and there are plenty of consumer protections out there that protects you from this just as they do with every other service out there that could do the same.
Google is not much more profitable then the current incumbents, why aren't they doing the same?
As pointed out before the incumbents have taken hundreds of billions of dollars and promised 45/45mbps fiber to everyone of their customers. Only Verizon did any kind of serious deployment but still feel extremely short of their promise in their half ass effort. Yet they still ran away with the money with no consequences didnt they?
I personally hope they dominate every where as well because the way I see it, they want to own the network and not be an ISP so they will lease it to ISPs and then we can choose who we want to service us based on the actual quality of the service they offer. | |
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| | | | | | WhatNow Premium Member join:2009-05-06 Charlotte, NC |
WhatNow
Premium Member
2015-Mar-3 4:59 pm
Re: Google sure is starting to sound like a telcoThe only thing you have to keep in mind is Google will know everything you do over Google Fiber. I use Google apps so I am sell my life for the info. | |
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Re: Google sure is starting to sound like a telcoGF doesn't use Fiber usage history in relationship to other Google services, it's kept separate and they don't target ads with GF history. They require a warrant to get to the data. Ads are generally targeted with Google's free services not pay services. And with Google services, you have control of your history via: google.com/history
Google+ is the scary service (their Facebook), which I don't use. | |
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2 recommendations |
to DataRiker
In 7 years people will be bitching that there is no competition. I don't see there will be a bunch of competition in the future. No small business would dare try and compete with Wal-Mart err I mean Google. | |
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Re: Google sure is starting to sound like a telcosaid by battleop:No small business would dare try and compete with Wal-Mart err I mean Google. How is this any different that Time Warner or ATT who existed before? I'm not following your logic. | |
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Re: Google sure is starting to sound like a telcoI hate to break it to you but there are a lot of small ISPs across the country trying to compete with AT&T and TW. | |
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| | | | | | | WhatNow Premium Member join:2009-05-06 Charlotte, NC |
WhatNow
Premium Member
2015-Mar-3 5:08 pm
Re: Google sure is starting to sound like a telcoDo they set up the whole network or do they lease circuits over the big boy network? I know some use a wireless setup.
The best thing GF has done is cause some of the cable and AT&T to move out of the slow lane. I do worry GF may become a monopoly in the cities they enter. | |
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Re: Google sure is starting to sound like a telcoThis gives some indication how the network is laid out, check out the googlefiber.net nodes around country... » Google Fiber improves routing and performanceThe local network is entirely Google Fiber and they are building their own longhaul network apparently on top of Level3 but using their own dedicated googlefiber.net routers across the country, which helps cut latency and likely ensures near Gbit speeds to the coasts. | |
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to battleop
said by battleop:I hate to break it to you but there are a lot of small ISPs across the country trying to compete with AT&T and TW. You are not "breaking" anything to me. This was exactly my point. You singled out Google as being the Walmart of ISP's, but TW and ATT seem to be more fitting examples who were already here. Again, not following the logic. | |
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to ohreally
The bottom line is that (at least in KC) when Google cut red tape to rollout fiber, most other ISPs in KC (TWC, ATT, etc) increased their fiber rollout significantly partly because there was less tape, partly because of competition - both good reasons.
Google has specific terms to be met in order to enter a market. The local govt has a choice to come to agreement or not. | |
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-1 recommendation |
KennyWest
Anon
2015-Mar-3 12:09 pm
Re: Google sure is starting to sound like a telcoBS. Google didn't help anyone. and those needs are them being like anyone else but with you and others that's okay. If it was a real company this site would be all over them and Karl would be bashing them like no tomorrow. | |
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Re: Google sure is starting to sound like a telcosaid by KennyWest :BS. Google didn't help anyone. and those needs are them being like anyone else but with you and others that's okay. If it was a real company this site would be all over them and Karl would be bashing them like no tomorrow. How can one argue against people getting better services at terms that they AGREE with? As a Kansas City resident please spell this out for me. | |
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Re: Google sure is starting to sound like a telcoAnd bringing other companies/technologies to KC specifically because of Google Fiber. This is a common theme from companies bringing new things to KC, like Cisco's largest Internet of Things project to a video services company that moved to KC for GFiber to a Chicago music service that moved to KC for Gfiber to Artemis pCell network planning to expand to KC as its second market... quote: Perlman says that after launching in San Francisco, he and Artemis plan to roll out pCell in Kansas City, solely because it offers Google Fiber. Google's high-speed landline service, you see, can provide a backbone for his high-speed wireless service. "It's no accident that Kansas City is where we want to go," he says.
» www.wired.com/2015/03/go ··· nternet/Getting residential Gbit is a big deal but what is even more unique is that Google offers biz class Gbit service for $100 with apparently no major restrictions. That may have more economic impact for Gfiber cities. edit: Another company that moved to KC from the Bay Area is the company that makes that telepresence device that was on Big Bang Theory show. They said they moved to KC specifically for GFiber. | |
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| | | | | | | WhatNow Premium Member join:2009-05-06 Charlotte, NC |
WhatNow
Premium Member
2015-Mar-3 5:11 pm
Re: Google sure is starting to sound like a telcoAs more cities get GF KC may not be getting more tech companies. | |
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Re: Google sure is starting to sound like a telcosaid by WhatNow:As more cities get GF KC may not be getting more tech companies. No doubt, but the combined GF cities may have a better shot attracting outsiders moving in than non-GF cities, unless other Gbit ISPs offer cheap unrestricted biz class service. | |
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to DataRiker
Everyone keeps clamoring for more competition. It's hard to have competition when there is no one to compete. Long term you are just replacing one evil corporation with another evil corporation. The end result is little to no competition. | |
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| | | | | | | WhatNow Premium Member join:2009-05-06 Charlotte, NC |
WhatNow
Premium Member
2015-Mar-3 5:16 pm
Re: Google sure is starting to sound like a telcoThe only way to get competition is to separate content from the fiber network. The last mile fiber network needs to be a monopoly for the same reason the power company has a monopoly. Then any content company can connect and provide service to each customer. | |
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1 recommendation |
to ohreally
It basically comes down to this: Google doesn't owe Portland or Oregon any service. If the residents there want Google Fiber, then they should be willing to give some concessions to show how much they want it. If you want the trophy, you have to be willing to play ball. If the government there would have said no, then that is their right, and its Google's right to say oh well, have a nice day. | |
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1 recommendation |
Re: Google sure is starting to sound like a telcoPeople seem to be missing the point somewhat. I am attacking the idea that Google's special treatment serves anyone other than Google.
Some people who cheer it on when Google gets special treatment don't like it that Comcast or TWC have enjoyed the same special treatment for decades in exchange for service. That's an interesting double standard. | |
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Re: Google sure is starting to sound like a telcoHow is it special treatment if the same terms are available to all ISPs? Google is driving the new terms but they are not specific to Google (not sure about every city but it seems like all so far). If you read about the intent of Portland agreement, it was developed by Google but Portland hopes to attract other ISPs with the same terms. KCMO specifically said the same GF terms are available to all ISPs if they also give what Google is providing (such as cheap/free 5M and Gbit in some public places). ISPs in KC are already taking advantage of streamlined city process to rollout more fiber - because of Google's terms. | |
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Re: Google sure is starting to sound like a telcosaid by existenz: If you read about the intent of Portland agreement, it was developed by Google but Portland hopes to attract other ISPs with the same terms. Which means nothing is going to happen if Google gets in. No one is going to build to compete with Google, with the possible exception of any incumbents. And it's not as if Google doesn't have the deep pockets to see any competition off. Portland is not about to see the levels of competition enjoyed in places like Europe, just because Google negotiated a good deal for themselves. The telco-cableco duopoly becomes a Google monopoly. Nice. said by existenz:KCMO specifically said the same GF terms are available to all ISPs if they also give what Google is providing (such as cheap/free 5M and Gbit in some public places). ISPs in KC are already taking advantage of streamlined city process to rollout more fiber - because of Google's terms. So basically, unless you do whatever Google wants to do (and can afford to do), you can't get in. Even if you can't do that because it is unprofitable. I'm glad I live somewhere with a truly open market - no stupid franchise agreements needed - if you have a telecoms licence and can negotiate some levels of bureaucracy, you can build. | |
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Re: Google sure is starting to sound like a telcoThe end result is that KC area now has 4Gbit ISPs and TWC upgrading to 300M before most markets. | |
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Re: Google sure is starting to sound like a telcoWho are these "4Gbit ISPs"?
How long will they last before they're either bought by Google or go out of business because they aren't Google? How do they compare to Google's already tiny coverage areas? I'm not sure some potentially unviable no-name startup with minimal coverage is the measurement of success | |
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1 recommendation |
Re: Google sure is starting to sound like a telcosaid by ohreally:Who are these "4Gbit ISPs"?
How long will they last before they're either bought by Google or go out of business because they aren't Google? I'm not sure some potentially unviable no-name startup is the measurement of success Other than GFiber, ATT Gigapower is now rolling out actual Gbit connections, Surewest/CCI is now rolling out Gbit (they have 20K fiber hybrid customers in KC, passing 100K homes) and then there is 'free' Gbit in North KC that is muni built but operated by an ISP. So 4 in the area. They don't all entirely cross over each other but there is quite a bit of overlap. TWC passes 600K homes in KC and used to have 300K customers but that has recently dropped to 260K so far (43% uptake) and falling. TWC said that Google will cover about 40-50% of TWC's footprint in KC. ATT is only going after newly developed high income areas and downtown - they'll do OK. Analysts claim an ISP rolling out fiber from scratch needs 30% uptake of homes passed to profit, but Surewest seems to be surviving with 20%. | |
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-1 recommendation |
KennyWest
Anon
2015-Mar-3 12:13 pm
Re: Google sure is starting to sound like a telcoUnless I can't count that is only 3. But how many serve the same city and areas of Google. And T was building fiber back when it was SBC in Michigan. Many areas have no copper as they were rebuilt. Did Google help with that? | |
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1 recommendation |
Re: Google sure is starting to sound like a telcoI'll help you... 1) Google Fiber 2) ATT Gigapower 3) Surewest/CCI 4) NKC Muni Gbit operated by ISP | |
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to ohreally
I haven't said I am opposed to Comcast or TWC getting special treatment. If they have something people in a particular area want, then let them get incentive to give it too. I can think of a few small towns near where I was raised that would love to have Comcast or TWC, much less Google. Besides, what difference does it make if it serves Google's best interest? Once again, they owe Portland and Oregon nothing, so if their best interests are served, then great for them. So, are you saying that Google Fiber coming to town isn't going to help the people who will be able to get it and the new competition? | |
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1 recommendation |
Re: Google sure is starting to sound like a telcosaid by caseywor: Besides, what difference does it make if it serves Google's best interest? Because Google's interests are not necessarily everyone's interests? Sweetening the deal with free internet (once you pay a few hundred to install it) seems reminiscent of the earlier days of cable TV where community TV stations and free hookups for schools were the goodies being dangled in front of governments. Now, some time later, people are screaming out against these mono/duopolies said by caseywor: Once again, they owe Portland and Oregon nothing, so if their best interests are served, then great for them. So, are you saying that Google Fiber coming to town isn't going to help the people who will be able to get it and the new competition? I think there's an awful lot of selling out in order to become the next Google city, even if long-term it isn't the best solution | |
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Re: Google sure is starting to sound like a telcoIf that is what the city wants, then let them go for it. Otherwise, let Google skip them for greener fields. If they do what you want them to do, then Google has the right to skip them, it is as plain as that. Portland wants their service, and is doing what they feel they need to in order to get it. | |
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2 recommendations |
to ohreally
This entire project is Google doing something to benefit everyone. | |
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to ohreally
You have to show what can be done with Gigabit internet before anyone is going to start to make a case for connections that fast.
Chicken and egg problem. Google is solving it by setting up a test chicken. | |
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-1 recommendation |
KennyWest to existenz
Anon
2015-Mar-3 12:02 pm
to existenz
Hardly. the red tape was never a problem. Why don't you admit that overbuilding doves not work and never will. If it did RCN and WOW would be expanding like wildfire. | |
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1 recommendation |
to tired_runner
Huh? The tax in question is a socialist anti business tax. Tax the "value" of a telco, so any big company is not going to want to have property in Oregon unless they have to. In any case most of these guys simply incorporate in the state, but Google has the clout, so why not use it. No soup for you! If you read it, the real nugget is not fiber but the datacenter exemption. The res of the bill was written for GF. My area couldn't get off its a$$ and Amazon went elsewhere. In that same headline, it says Comcast has been dodging paying their taxes for years, but I am sure they collected them on time... Portland has been trying to get advanced HSI for some time and skipped a few beats. That would be like the feds taxing your entire retirement every year, if you made a profit or not. Well maybe that is coming I think they should give HSI innovators the red carpet like the telcos originally got to get started back in the day. Sure the legacies will cry foul and drag access, but they have been given billions of dollars in tax breaks and subsidies in the past. | |
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to tired_runner
A telco would say, "We don't care what you give us. We aren't upgrading you to fiber." | |
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Re: Google sure is starting to sound like a telcosaid by biochemistry:A telco would say, "We don't care what you give us. We aren't upgrading you to fiber." Correction. A telco would say, "Nobody needs 1 GBps. That's purely a marketing gimmick" | |
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-1 recommendation |
to tired_runner
They have already done that. Go and look up the city they walked away from after signing a contract for services. The city code said all limes under ground Google said no and walked. they'll do the same in CLT where more than 90% of the city has no utility poles.
Google is not out for the food of services, shareholders are going to demand numbers and the SEC will make them give that up soon. | |
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| | batterupI Can Not Tell A Lie. Premium Member join:2003-02-06 Netcong, NJ |
batterup
Premium Member
2015-Mar-3 1:50 pm
Re: Google sure is starting to sound like a telcosaid by KennyWest :Google is not out for the food of services, shareholders are going to demand numbers and the SEC will make them give that up soon. Google has two classes of shares: Class A (listed on the Nasdaq under the ticker GOOG) and Class B (founders' shares that are not publicly traded). The "founder" shares count for 10 votes each compared to 1 for the great unwashed shares. | |
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