 | | Thank dishonest advertising practices... You can thank dishonest advertising practices for this. This is nothing more than a rate hike that does not affect the advertised price. Things to get more expensive as time goes along so prices do go up. Instead of increasing the advertised price they just stick the increase elsewhere. | |
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 |  Romney2012Defeat Obama 2012-Chg we can believe inPremium join:2002-03-03 USA kudos:4 | Re: Thank dishonest advertising practices... said by battleop:You can thank dishonest advertising practices for this. This is nothing more than a rate hike that does not affect the advertised price. Things to get more expensive as time goes along so prices do go up. Instead of increasing the advertised price they just stick the increase elsewhere. But it isn't a rate hike for MOST users. It is a rate hike only for those clueless people who want to pay bills like they did in the 1950's. I actually prefer the regular advertised rate not go up for everyone just so that some people mired in the past get a break from fees. -- The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, I'm from the government and I'm here to help. »www.politico.com/2012-election/
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 |  |  | | Re: Thank dishonest advertising practices... They used Internet back in the 1950's? Because I have seen this fee being charged for online transactions too.
I think the point here, is that why should the customer have to pay a fee just to pay a bill. You can't assume that everyone in the world should have your level of knowledge. There are a lot of people that didn't grow up during the PC computer age and are not really proficient at computers. Not a fault, it is just different for them when it comes to a PC. | |
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 |  |  |  Romney2012Defeat Obama 2012-Chg we can believe inPremium join:2002-03-03 USA kudos:4 | Re: Thank dishonest advertising practices... said by sandman_1:I think the point here, is that why should the customer have to pay a fee just to pay a bill. You can't assume that everyone in the world should have your level of knowledge. There are a lot of people that didn't grow up during the PC computer age and are not really proficient at computers. Not a fault, it is just different for them when it comes to a PC. They can pay the bill by mail and pay no fee. Paying in person or by phone is not required and companies discourage that option because it costs them more money because of extra employees being needed. -- The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, I'm from the government and I'm here to help. »www.politico.com/2012-election/
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 |  |  |  |  sbrookPremium,Mod join:2001-12-14 Ottawa kudos:4 Reviews:
·TekSavvy Cable
·Rogers Hi-Speed
| Re: Thank dishonest advertising practices... And you don't need people to enter all those cheques received by mail into an AR system? Costs them more than doing it even by phone. Cheques received cost to be deposited to their bank account, just like credit payments. These arguments don't wash. | |
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 |  |  |  |  |  cdruGo ColtsPremium,MVM join:2003-05-14 Fort Wayne, IN kudos:5 Reviews:
·Frontier FiOS
| Re: Thank dishonest advertising practices... said by sbrook:And you don't need people to enter all those cheques received by mail into an AR system? Costs them more than doing it even by phone. Please. A half way decent data entry clerk is going to make about the same as a phone CSR, and is going to be able to enter far more payments hourly then the CSR. The cost-per-payment is far less for a mailed in payment then a phone. | |
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 |  |  |  |  |  |  Romney2012Defeat Obama 2012-Chg we can believe inPremium join:2002-03-03 USA kudos:4 | Re: Thank dishonest advertising practices... said by cdru:said by sbrook:And you don't need people to enter all those cheques received by mail into an AR system? Costs them more than doing it even by phone. Please. A half way decent data entry clerk is going to make about the same as a phone CSR, and is going to be able to enter far more payments hourly then the CSR. The cost-per-payment is far less for a mailed in payment then a phone. Not only that, but most mailed in checks to pay bills are handled by outsourced 3rd party companies that do it all with machines - from opening the envelopes, scanning the bills & the checks, transmitting info to banks, etc. The cost per bill is pennies thru the outsourcer, versus dollars to handle a bill paid over the phone or in person.
A friend of mine is a director of operations at one of the companies that does this in the Philadelphia area.
-- The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, I'm from the government and I'm here to help. »www.politico.com/2012-election/
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 |  |  |  |  |  tshirtPremium,MVM join:2004-07-11 Snohomish, WA kudos:3 | but a data entry clerk can process 180-2xx+ checks per hour, a phone billing clerk can only POLITELY deal with 10-12 in some cases much less (people argue/chat with humans, not with checks, or online payment forums) | |
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·Hargray Cable
| said by sbrook:And you don't need people to enter all those cheques received by mail into an AR system? Costs them more than doing it even by phone. Cheques received cost to be deposited to their bank account, just like credit payments. These arguments don't wash. At one point B of A wanted to charge for using the ATM when the whole reason for the ATM was it's a much cheaper than having tellers. They also tried limiting your times you could use a teller, that failed too. It's like charging for a debit card, that was the last banking idea that massively failed.
They will try and people will vote with their feet or threaten too. It all works out in the end. Oh I forgot, bill pay use to be a feature you had to pay for and that also saves banks money. | |
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 |  |  |  |  KrKHeavy Artillery For The Little GuyPremium join:2000-01-17 Tulsa, OK Reviews:
·AT&T DSL Service
| That's understandable, but the attempt to charge extra to pay your bill BY mail OR online, which SAVES them money is beyond reprehensible. -- "Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." -- Benito Mussolini
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 |  |  | | said by Romney2012:said by battleop:You can thank dishonest advertising practices for this. This is nothing more than a rate hike that does not affect the advertised price. Things to get more expensive as time goes along so prices do go up. Instead of increasing the advertised price they just stick the increase elsewhere. But it isn't a rate hike for MOST users. It is a rate hike only for those clueless people who want to pay bills like they did in the 1950's. I actually prefer the regular advertised rate not go up for everyone just so that some people mired in the past get a break from fees. I've got to call BS on you for this crap statement.
The whole point of paying a bill online is to reduce costs. Back in the 1950's you would mail a check. Well, the process of maintaining a facility (or multiple facilities depending on the size of your business) and hiring employees to process all that mail was expensive. To solve this companies turned to electronic payments (credit/debit card, ACH) which are far cheaper than sending a paper bill and processing a paper check. Now they turn around and say they are charging two bucks to improve the "customer experience"? Why don't they just be honest and call it what it is: a below the line rate hike which won't show up in the advertising and they won't tell you about until after you've signed on the dotted line?
I use Verizon Wireless and manually pay my bill via their website every month and would have been one of the people who were subject to this "fee". Explain why I'm "clueless". Is it because I don't want to grant access to my finances to a corporation who has shown it has no interest in anything but squeezing an even bigger profit from it's customers than it is already receiving? Is it because I don't want them to debit my checking account for an amount that has twice in the past year been incorrect? Is it because I refuse to surrender the only leverage I have when dealing with Verizon or any other corporation (the ability to deny payment until a problem is resolved)?
If anything, "clueless" seems a more appropriate descriptor for someone who allows a company to take money from his account at it's leisure because he mistakenly believes that a corporation never makes a mistake and has only his best interests at heart. | |
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 |  |  |  Romney2012Defeat Obama 2012-Chg we can believe inPremium join:2002-03-03 USA kudos:4 | Re: Thank dishonest advertising practices... I pay thru my bank's bill paying system. No fee from Verizon. No fee from the banks. No Auto-pay; I pay when I am ready. | |
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 |  |  |  |  KrKHeavy Artillery For The Little GuyPremium join:2000-01-17 Tulsa, OK Reviews:
·AT&T DSL Service
| Re: Thank dishonest advertising practices... said by Romney2012:I pay thru my bank's bill paying system. No fee from Verizon. No fee from the banks. No Auto-pay; I pay when I am ready. Until they decide to start charging you a fee to do this.
This is the point of shutting this down now. -- "Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." -- Benito Mussolini
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 |  |  |  |  Mele20Premium join:2001-06-05 Hilo, HI kudos:4 | said by Romney2012:I pay thru my bank's bill paying system. No fee from Verizon. No fee from the banks. No Auto-pay; I pay when I am ready. That costs quite a bit of money in Hawaii (unless you are rich and have big accounts at the bank or use a credit union instead). I don't want my checking account at a credit union and I am not about to pay a monthly fee for my bank's bill pay. I also am not about to leave my bank which has been honored by Forbes for two years in row now as the Best Bank in America. I want my money in a safe place. I wouldn't put it in any other bank in this state. So, your option is not available to me.
I've used bill pay, as a free trial, and I think it is one of the most inane, stupid, time consuming ways to pay bills. Plus, there is NO guarantee if the check doesn't reach the payee in time. Everything then is MY fault...not the bank's because I should have scheduled the check to be mailed at least one month in advance and if the USPS loses it for longer than that...it is still my fault because I should not have used bill pay in the first place so I am subject to all penalties which can be very harsh. So, fine if where YOU live bill pay works well, and is free from STRONG banks, but that is not case in Hawaii. -- When governments fear people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. Thomas Jefferson | |
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 |  | | Well, starting this month, airlines are required to include all the taxes and other below-the-line fees in the price they quote for the flight.
Hopefully, this will end up being the case for broadband and mobile carriers. | |
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 | | Why? Why do you need "the aid of a representative" to pay your bills. What am I missing here? | |
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 |  openbox9 join:2004-01-26 Alexandria, VA kudos:2 | Re: Why? There's still a constituency that likes to speak with a warm body when conducting business. | |
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 | | $5... Don't forget that Verizon WILL Hit you for $5 if you are a DAY late with paper invoice. -- Splat | |
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 |  |  | | Re: $5... I just found my new favorite advertising campaign! | |
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 |  | | Re: Bull Shit!! I think the autopay is free, but manual payments (besides pay by mail) are charged extra. | |
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 |  |  | | Re: Bull Shit!! said by talz13:I think the autopay is free, but manual payments (besides pay by mail) are charged extra. one of my mothers credit card companies charges a $5 fee to pay the bill via their website, weather you use debit or ACH.. i pay that bill for her through her banks bill pay for no fee. | |
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 |  |  |  Mele20Premium join:2001-06-05 Hilo, HI kudos:4 | Re: Bull Shit!! said by thedragonmas:said by talz13:I think the autopay is free, but manual payments (besides pay by mail) are charged extra. one of my mothers credit card companies charges a $5 fee to pay the bill via their website, weather you use debit or ACH.. i pay that bill for her through her banks bill pay for no fee. She could also pay it by phone FREE using electronic debit from her checking account. By law all banks/financial institutions must accept phone payment over toll free numbers and not charge for it unless, perhaps, the customer needs to speak to a CSR for some reason other than the automated system messing up (like in the two examples below). It is much easier to pay by phone. I pay almost all my credit cards now by phone since it is fast, free, and with a corded landline phone (with a speaker in the phone's base) it is safer than via the internet. Even the first time you do it is EXTREMELY SIMPLE and easy to do usually.
I did have a problem two months in a row with one bank's automated system not understanding when I was asked how much I wanted to pay and I said "$150". It said "you want to pay $115 is this correct"? I said no and repeated the correct amount. It still thought I said $115 not $150. It took 4-5 tries before finally understanding me. The same thing happened the next month. I then called and complained and the bank actually fixed the system and now it understands even if I deliberately mumble slightly (to test it).
I had another bank's automated payment system rattle off the confirmation number (which was extremely long) so fast that I had to have it repeated many times in order to write it down correctly. (This is where the speaker phone comes in very handy as my hands are free for writing the long number down). After the second time that happened, I called that bank about it also. They fixed it quickly and the next time the confirmation number was given more slowly. A few months after that, the bank moved to a much shorter confirmation number. -- When governments fear people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. Thomas Jefferson | |
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 thegeekPremium join:2008-02-21 united state kudos:1 Reviews:
·Suddenlink
·NPG Cable
| This is why I didn't get all the uproar. What Verizon tried to do was nothing new. Not only have other ISPs been doing it for years, but utilities and other organizations have also been doing it. And I actually stand behind the practice. So long as they don't try to charge for autopay options. For some reason my water company wants $5 to set up autopay. That is the only check I write. I don't even write a check for my mortgage anymore. | |
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 |  sammysnakeNever Forget 911Premium join:2002-01-19 Salt Lake City, UT | Re: This is why I didn't get all the uproar. Questar Gas here in the inter mountain west is the check I write. They want to charge a "convenience fee" to get instant payment via online payment. So they wait until I mail them a check. | |
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 MadnessLike a flea circus at a dog show join:2000-01-05 Quincy, MA kudos:1 | Catch-22? Does VZ charge if you still opt for a paper bill? | |
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 |  QLR join:2009-06-23 Tallahassee, FL | Re: Catch-22? A $2 per line fee is charged if you want a detailed bill via mail. Summarized bills are still mailed at no charge. | |
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 mist668 join:2011-02-15 Middleburg, PA Reviews:
·Verizon Online DSL
| Its acceptable We charge the fees for in person payment because there are many other methods that can be used to pay your balance "fee free". The only reason this charge is inacted is because when there is a store full of people we want to get to each and every person as quick as possible and not have to deal with bill payments while there are customers waiting for troubleshooting/adds ect. | |
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 |  | | Re: Its acceptable No you dont. You charge a fee because you can and because you want more money. It has absolutely nothing to do with customer service, because if it did you would actually invest in providing customers service. | |
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 |  |  mist668 join:2011-02-15 Middleburg, PA Reviews:
·Verizon Online DSL
| Re: Its acceptable No, we do not charge a fee because we want to. We charge a fee to deter regular (i have to drive 5 miles to the store and then when I do not get top f'ing priority because the person at the counter is busy helping another person with a legit task I get obnoxious) to other payment methods such as mail, online, phone. You obviously do not work in a retail wireless store. | |
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 |  |  |  | | Re: Its acceptable I'm gonna go with Skippy on this one.
While you may believe the party line given to you by your superiors, you have no idea what is being said in the boardroom. I guarantee you that these companies have already analyzed how much more they are going to make (or in your example "save") with these "fees" that is why they enacted them. | |
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·Sprint Mobile Br..
| I have to agree with both of you on this one. I've been a longtime sprint customer and always paid my bill online or before we could do that, over the phone. I was a day or so past the due date and was driving past a sprint store and figured i would pay my bill here so i dont get the late fee. They told me it was 5 bucks to pay there. So i went home and paid online like i normally would. If not a money maker its definitely a deterrent from paying my bill in person. --
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 |  | | 2 windows, 1 for bills, 1 for every thing else. before mediacom moved there service center the old one had 3 windows. 1 bill, 2 equipment return/exchange, 3 support.
so to say you "need" to charge a fee just to speed people up is false, invest in customer service instead of some corporate fat cats golden parachut and you could hire an extra person just for bills, like maybe a disabled person on ssi so they can get off of ssi and you can have a warm fuzzy feeling ? | |
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 |  |  mist668 join:2011-02-15 Middleburg, PA Reviews:
·Verizon Online DSL
| Re: Its acceptable Two things.
First off if that method worked so well for them or you then how come they no longer have such practices.
Second, most wireless locations need more out of a person then "just taking payments" so unless the disabled or ssi person is quite qualified at selling or providing legendary customer service, no thanks. | |
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 |  |  |  | | Re: Its acceptable said by mist668:Two things.
First off if that method worked so well for them or you then how come they no longer have such practices.
Second, most wireless locations need more out of a person then "just taking payments" so unless the disabled or ssi person is quite qualified at selling or providing legendary customer service, no thanks. then i really hope your not one of those that complain about disabled folks on ssi gettin $698 a month for not working, because its THAT mentality that makes it so difficult for us to get jobs.
they dont do that any more because in the new location they have 4 people instead of just 3. | |
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 |  |  |  |  mist668 join:2011-02-15 Middleburg, PA Reviews:
·Verizon Online DSL
| Re: Its acceptable said by thedragonmas:then i really hope your not one of those that complain about disabled folks on ssi gettin $698 a month for not working, because its THAT mentality that makes it so difficult for us to get jobs. Obviously you prove to yourself and others on this forum that you cannot read. I never stated that, I simply said if you are not qualified to sell and or provide legendary customer service(believe it or not most people are not) then you more than likely will not find yourself in a wireless store.
On a second note I am going to go there. If you are disabled and sit at home and collect free money that's fine. If you are angry at the world because you cannot find a place to work and do the same thing (sit or stand) doing nothing all day long while keeping employment then you just prove that you either are 1) incapable of working and thus have a legit reason to be on disability or 2) just dont care and think the world is out to get you or believe you are "entitled" to do limited work for the same compensation as others. | |
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 |  |  |  |  |  | | Re: Its acceptable after rereading your post i see i read more in to it than what you intended. i tend to be "over sensitive" from years of experience with that topic, that i could go in too but that would take us severely OT. i apologize. | |
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 |  dvd536as Mr. Pink as they comePremium join:2001-04-27 Phoenix, AZ kudos:4 | said by mist668:We charge the fees for in person payment because there are many other methods that can be used to pay your balance "fee free". The only reason this charge is inacted is because when there is a store full of people we want to get to each and every person as quick as possible and not have to deal with bill payments while there are customers waiting for troubleshooting/adds ect. You obviously don't work for cox where theres 5 agent stations and enough help to man them yet you WAIT WAIT WAIT because you have 1 person helping people and the others just standing around talking to each other bullshitting. -- Oh YES! let me drop everything i'm doing regardless of who it affects to deal with your petty little problem! | |
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 JohnAPremium join:2003-09-16 Pittsburgh, PA | Do it through your bank Anyone that tries for a bill pay fee gets paid through my bank's bill paying system. All of my utilities are done that way, as they are notorious for online bill pay fees. I still control it, and when it's paid, with no fee involved. -- Cut Up The Government's Credit Card - Repeal the 16th Amendment | |
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 |  QLR join:2009-06-23 Tallahassee, FL | Re: Do it through your bank My city has outsourced their online bill payment systems to Western Union... So I use my online bill pay thru my credit union... Or I visit the local office and pay in person since that is free as well. | |
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 |  |  | | Re: Do it through your bank said by QLR:My city has outsourced their online bill payment systems to Western Union... So I use my online bill pay thru my credit union... Or I visit the local office and pay in person since that is free as well. so has ours, but theres no fee. and it beats going down there. you think the cable company is busy? that joint has 5 windows with 5 lines every month, takes a good half hour just to pay the bill. | |
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 billdacatPremium join:2009-05-26 Sicklerville, NJ | Big deal133;it only a few bucks. FWIW
The wonderful state of New Jersey (yeah it sucks) charges a $2.00 convenience fee to renew a vehicle registration online. I would bet human hands never touch or intervene in this process.
There is nothing more efficient then going to the DMV in person and having a clerk manually process your renewal application. Oh, I almost forgot, you get to write a wonderful check
yippy..  Come to think of it, the convenience fee is probably used to pay the DMV clerks salary..Never mind. | |
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 |  | | Re: Big deal133;it only a few bucks. I personally avoid going through an automated process when there is a person available to provide me customer service.
Leaving the parking garage, I go to the attendant. Checking out at a store, I go to a cashier. Banking needs, I see a teller. Calling a company, I opt out until I get a live person when possible.
Companies can take all these self serve anti-consumer tricks they are trying to play and stick them.  | |
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 |  RARPSL join:1999-12-08 Suffern, NY | said by billdacat:FWIW
The wonderful state of New Jersey (yeah it sucks) charges a $2.00 convenience fee to renew a vehicle registration online. I would bet human hands never touch or intervene in this process.
There is nothing more efficient then going to the DMV in person and having a clerk manually process your renewal application. Oh, I almost forgot, you get to write a wonderful check
yippy..  Come to think of it, the convenience fee is probably used to pay the DMV clerks salary..Never mind. How much does it cost YOU in gas to drive to/from the local DMV office to renew in person? There is also the time you must spend to drive there and back as well as wait in line while there. IMO, the cost of the gas (ignoring the wasted time) is more than the $2 Online Fee.
Note: If you add the option of just mailing in the form the cost is just $0.44 (plus the fee, if any, from your bank for the check) - Thus the $2 is more than the SnailMail option. In looking at the convenience fees you have to compute the total cost to you of each of the options. Just focusing on the fee makes it look like a rip-off when paying it can be cheaper than the other options when you look at the full/real cost to you of using them. | |
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 |  |  | | Re: Big deal133;it only a few bucks. I dont know a single person that would waste the time and gas to drive the distance you are talking for the fee to be a cheaper alternative. Unless of course they are driving a car that gets 10mpg or less and those people probably don't pay it themselves to begin with.
Regardless, using an online service has almost a 0 cost to the company so any fee is at minimum is a 99% cash grab. | |
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 |  Mele20Premium join:2001-06-05 Hilo, HI kudos:4 | said by billdacat:FWIW
The wonderful state of New Jersey (yeah it sucks) charges a $2.00 convenience fee to renew a vehicle registration online. I would bet human hands never touch or intervene in this process.
There is nothing more efficient then going to the DMV in person and having a clerk manually process your renewal application. Oh, I almost forgot, you get to write a wonderful check
yippy..  Come to think of it, the convenience fee is probably used to pay the DMV clerks salary..Never mind. At least you don't have an almost DOUBLE INCREASE in the fee this year like we do in Hawaii. It is really painful now to pay DMV. DMV introduced online payment last year with no fee for it as they WANT citizens to do online (maybe so they don't have to deal with angry customers (regarding the gigantic fee increase in one year) in person. -- When governments fear people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. Thomas Jefferson | |
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 |  CHPMustangN X T1Premium join:2001-10-18 Richardson, TX | Re: the state of IL DMV We get charged like $5 for the convenience fee,I just walk into the office and save 5 bucks  | |
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 |  |  DavidNow accepting new patientsPremium,VIP join:2002-05-30 Granite City, IL kudos:70 | Re: the state of IL DMV Yea, it comes in an envelope I could print out some pages and mail when the time comes and that would be incredibly cheaper. However, with the online bit, it makes it ultra convenient for me. | |
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 xirianPremium join:2003-01-26 Beacon, NY kudos:1 | None of the examples are similar All of those examples are fees to pay with a rep, meaning taking up a live person. The verizon charge applied to pretty much anything but sending a check, going to the store to use the kiosk, or using autopay. I have no problem if they charge someone $5 to take up the time of an employee when they can do it themselves online, in store, or using an automated phone system, but they were doing it mainly to annoy people into giving them autopay authorization. | |
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 |  mist668 join:2011-02-15 Middleburg, PA Reviews:
·Verizon Online DSL
| Re: None of the examples are similar said by xirian:I have no problem if they charge someone $5 to take up the time of an employee when they can do it themselves online, in store, or using an automated phone system Thank you, some of us actually have something better to do then take your cash because you have not joined the 21st century and use electronic methods. | |
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 |  |  KrKHeavy Artillery For The Little GuyPremium join:2000-01-17 Tulsa, OK Reviews:
·AT&T DSL Service
| Re: None of the examples are similar Guess you haven't been paying attention however, they are wanting to add surcharges ON PAYING ELECTRONICALLY.
It's just rape, actually.
Pure and simple. -- "Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." -- Benito Mussolini
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 |  Mele20Premium join:2001-06-05 Hilo, HI kudos:4 | said by xirian:All of those examples are fees to pay with a rep, meaning taking up a live person. The verizon charge applied to pretty much anything but sending a check, going to the store to use the kiosk, or using autopay. I have no problem if they charge someone $5 to take up the time of an employee when they can do it themselves online, in store, or using an automated phone system, but they were doing it mainly to annoy people into giving them autopay authorization. That's right and it is EXACTLY what Hawaiian TelCom is doing here. They charge $2 to pay your phone bill online and the one bank that takes payments charges you $2. The state wide Phone Marts, where you could pay free in person, were all closed earlier this year. HawTel wants to force everyone to use autopay. You can send a check but that costs 44 cents (more in a couple of weeks) and you have to drive to the post office to mail a check here because your postal box is on the curb where there is a lot of theft (hence a gasoline charge). Even in apartment/condo buildings thieves break into the outgoing mailbox frequently (said box having been approved before purchase by the USPS as being "safe"). So, yeah, the idea is to force you to use autopay. That, of course, means you may pay less attention to wrong charges on the bill or, if you do spot them, it may be much later and, thus, harder to get your money back. -- When governments fear people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. Thomas Jefferson | |
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 | | Surprised Verizon backed down I'm really surprised that Verizon backed down. Being hated by their customers doesn't mean anything to a company like Verizon--it's built into the business model. They will keep at this until they finally get it to stick.
I'm in the camp that believes that the $2 is a red herring and the real motivation is to herd stragglers to auto pay. They will (and intend) to make many times that $2 by a continuous stream of billing "errors" which get paid automatically by customers who won't notice or decide it's not worth fighting to get back the small amount of the "error". | |
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 |  | | Re: Surprised Verizon backed down I am with you on this one. By the time any regulating agency raps them on the knuckles for their "billing foibles" they have already laughed all the way to the bank. Any refunds to ripped off customers will be peanuts compared to the benefits that they have already gained. | |
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