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Qwest Also Now Kicking Pirates Off Their Network?
Begins the new effort by threatening a woman and her unsecured router...

We recently explored how Verizon Communications has ramped up their warnings to P2P users who trade copyrighted files, telling those users they will lose their Internet connections -- even if those warnings appear to be a bluff. As it stands, Cox Communications is the only major ISP we know of willing to actually admit they kick users off of the Internet based on little more than a handshake and an IP address from entertainment industry.

According to CNET however, Qwest Communications is now also ramping up their warnings to users, and is threatening to disconnect users based simply on the entertainment industry's say so. Qwest does boot a small number of users from their network for excessive consumption, but booting users for P2P use is a new one for Qwest. According to CNET, Qwest's new role as entertainment industry content nanny isn't going very well. They apparently threatened a 53-year old woman with account termination for downloading South Park episodes, only to realize someone was using her unsecured wireless connection:

quote:
Paradiso, a technical recruiter who works out of her home near Pueblo, Colo., would eventually be cleared. Last week, Qwest had a technician investigate--after CNET began making inquiries--and he discovered that her network had been compromised, according to Monica Martinez, a Qwest spokeswoman. So Paradiso is off the hook, but she wants to know what would have happened had she not gone to the media. There was no independent third party to hear her complaint. There was no one to advocate for her.
Even if her wireless AP was unsecured, losing your Internet connection for not setting your router password still seems absurd even if such an action on Qwest's part was supported by any kind of law (which it's not). Again, it's not clear if Qwest is really kicking people off of the Internet yet, or if they're just bluffing like Verizon. We've sent inquiries to Qwest to see if they're willing to actually confirm whether a single user has really been terminated, or if they just want users who receive these letters to believe that's the case.

ISPs clearly want letters and warnings to work, given it would prevent regulations forcing them to be content nannies. But such warnings won't work for long if users are aware that there's no real penalty attached. The problem is, kicking people off of the Internet for downloading episodes of South Park is a dangerous path for ISPs to walk for a long list of reasons, not least of which is legal liability. The mother in the CNET article has already lawyered up. Meanwhile, whether the entertainment industry falsely accuses someone or kicks them off the Internet, they're not exactly building a lasting relationship with a possible customer:
quote:
"I'm the last person that would steal somebody's art," Paradiso said. "I've never downloaded a movie or song in my life. I'm against it. After going through this, I realize this is the kind of thing that could really hurt artists. I'm so paranoid now, I won't buy music or movies online ever."
Update: Qwest wouldn't specifically tell us if the company has actually booted anybody from the network:
quote:
Unfortunately, I can't discuss specific actions taken in response to our overall Acceptable Use Policy -- which includes respecting intellectual property rights and other appropriate conduct -- but once a violation of our policy has occurred, Qwest does reserve the right to disconnect.
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topics flat nest 

TuxRaiderPen
A Warm Embrace
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Outer Rim

TuxRaiderPen

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Due process

No investigation? Nothing? Just, "Here's an IP and what was downloaded" thing? This clearly shows, despite how TCP/IP connectivity works, those who appear guilty are not so guilty. Unless she gave her access away, but then again, how are you going to prove that? Wiretaps? blech...
88615298 (banned)
join:2004-07-28
West Tenness

1 recommendation

88615298 (banned)

Member

Re: Due process

said by TuxRaiderPen:

No investigation? Nothing? Just, "Here's an IP and what was downloaded" thing? This clearly shows, despite how TCP/IP connectivity works, those who appear guilty are not so guilty. Unless she gave her access away, but then again, how are you going to prove that? Wiretaps? blech...
Due process applies to the government. Just like the mods here can ban you or edit your posts for any reason. The 1st Amendment doesn't apply to them.

Oh they obviously investigated because they didn't turn off her access and found out her router was unsecured. Sounds like an investigation to me. They actually did her a favor because now she knows to keep her connection secure. Trust me if the person using her connection was downloading child porn the feds wouldn't send her e-mails. They come and confiscate everything.

TuxRaiderPen
A Warm Embrace
join:2009-06-02
Outer Rim

TuxRaiderPen

Member

Re: Due process

In this case, they were wrong, so it would be prudent of the company to institute a due process model before termination, unless they want more backlash.
88615298 (banned)
join:2004-07-28
West Tenness

88615298 (banned)

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Re: Due process

said by TuxRaiderPen:

In this case, they were wrong, so it would be prudent of the company to institute a due process model before termination, unless they want more backlash.
Show me where it says she was terminated.

TuxRaiderPen
A Warm Embrace
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Outer Rim

TuxRaiderPen

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Re: Due process

I said "before termination" not that she was terminated. They wanted to cut her off BEFORE running a thorough investigation.
88615298 (banned)
join:2004-07-28
West Tenness

88615298 (banned)

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Re: Due process

said by TuxRaiderPen:

I said "before termination" not that she was terminated. They wanted to cut her off BEFORE running a thorough investigation.
If they did they would have. They INVESTIGATED. Othewise how did they know she didn't have a secure connection? Yes keep making the ISP the bad guy for just sending out a notice.

TuxRaiderPen
A Warm Embrace
join:2009-06-02
Outer Rim

1 edit

TuxRaiderPen

Member

Re: Due process

Read the CNET article. She was going to be terminated. She complains. Qwest investigates. She is cleared. The point is they jumped the gun. I'm not arguing that it isn't the right of the ISP to terminate, only to be justified in doing so.

Edit here's a quote:
quote:
Qwest had a technician investigate--after CNET began making inquiries

NOCTech75
Premium Member
join:2009-06-29
Marietta, GA

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to 88615298
said by 88615298:

said by TuxRaiderPen:

I said "before termination" not that she was terminated. They wanted to cut her off BEFORE running a thorough investigation.
If they did they would have. They INVESTIGATED. Othewise how did they know she didn't have a secure connection? Yes keep making the ISP the bad guy for just sending out a notice.
Only after CNET pushed them.... if CNET had not pushed them I doubt they would have investigated.
88615298 (banned)
join:2004-07-28
West Tenness

88615298 (banned)

Member

Re: Due process

said by NOCTech75:

said by 88615298:

said by TuxRaiderPen:

I said "before termination" not that she was terminated. They wanted to cut her off BEFORE running a thorough investigation.
If they did they would have. They INVESTIGATED. Othewise how did they know she didn't have a secure connection? Yes keep making the ISP the bad guy for just sending out a notice.
Only after CNET pushed them.... if CNET had not pushed them I doubt they would have investigated.
Was there an investigation or not? Simple yes or no. Yes. Nuff said.

TuxRaiderPen
A Warm Embrace
join:2009-06-02
Outer Rim

TuxRaiderPen

Member

Re: Due process

No, not prior to warning.
Desdinova
Premium Member
join:2003-01-26
Gaithersburg, MD

Desdinova to 88615298

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to 88615298
"Was there an investigation or not? Simple yes or no. Yes. Nuff said."

So you're okay with someone throwing you in jail before bothering to investigate, just because a neighbor called the police and said you did something wrong?
Skippy25
join:2000-09-13
Hazelwood, MO

1 recommendation

Skippy25

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Re: Due process

You can't fix "stupid", so don't even try.

TamaraB
Question The Current Paradigm
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Da Bronx
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TamaraB

Premium Member

Re: Due process

said by Skippy25:

You can't fix "stupid", so don't even try.

»www.youtube.com/watch?v= ··· 7H2NR87o
Expand your moderator at work

ReformCRTC
Support Your Independent ISP
join:2004-03-07
Canada

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to Skippy25

Re: Due process

As my mama would say, "Stupid is as stupid does..."

NOCTech75
Premium Member
join:2009-06-29
Marietta, GA

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to 88615298
said by 88615298:

Was there an investigation or not? Simple yes or no. Yes. Nuff said.
Wow, great response. I guess a carrier getting shamed into doing a correct investigation is enough to absolve the carrier of any wrong doing. What happens when they don't do an investigation?

KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
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Netgear WNDR3700v2
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said by 88615298:

Was there an investigation or not? Simple yes or no. Yes. Nuff said.
BS. That's like when a citizen is being railroaded and ripped off, and then only when the TV station becomes involves and dumps a heap of bad press on the guilty Corporation do they suddenly have a change in heart and the issue is resolved.

In no way for or shape is this any sort of due process or fair. It's only because they got called out by the media that justice prevailed otherwise injustice was the order of the day.
The Antihero
join:2002-04-09
Enola, PA

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to 88615298
said by 88615298:

Was there an investigation or not? Simple yes or no. Yes. Nuff said.
Sounds like someone is deliberately missing the point.

fatness
subtle

join:2000-11-17
fishing

2 recommendations

fatness to 88615298

to 88615298
said by 88615298:
said by TuxRaiderPen:

I said "before termination" not that she was terminated. They wanted to cut her off BEFORE running a thorough investigation.
If they did they would have. They INVESTIGATED. Othewise how did they know she didn't have a secure connection? Yes keep making the ISP the bad guy for just sending out a notice.
The ISP only investigated because CNET was investigating what the ISP had done. Read the article:
quote:
Last week, Qwest had a technician investigate--after CNET began making inquiries--
The ISP only investigated to cover their own ass, not to deal fairly with a customer.

TuxRaiderPen
A Warm Embrace
join:2009-06-02
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TuxRaiderPen

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Re: Due process

Correct. A sociologist pointed out to me once that we're all governed (whether we're aware or not) by mores and folkways. Corporations, in our free society, are governed only by what is written in the law. So, in this case, while they were within the legal rights of terminating someone on THEIR own network, they were unethical about it. The power of public perception and backlash is incredible.

Noah Vail
Oh God please no.
Premium Member
join:2004-12-10
SouthAmerica

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said by 88615298:

Just like the mods here can ban you or edit your posts for any reason. The 1st Amendment doesn't apply to them.
The integrity and marketability of the entire DSLR site could be seriously compromised by a single incompetent user, with unceasingly thoughtless behavior.

The same can't be said for the Quest network. Thus there is a need for a level and type of control at DSLR that doesn't exist at Quest.

NV

castsucks
@sbcglobal.net

castsucks to TuxRaiderPen

Anon

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but what happens at strike 3 for some one like that?

what happens if it is a cable tv only customer?

FFH5
Premium Member
join:2002-03-03
Tavistock NJ

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said by TuxRaiderPen:

No investigation? Nothing? Just, "Here's an IP and what was downloaded" thing? This clearly shows, despite how TCP/IP connectivity works, those who appear guilty are not so guilty. Unless she gave her access away, but then again, how are you going to prove that? Wiretaps? blech...
Internet access is not a right guaranteed by law. It is a contract between the homeowner and the provider. Based on contract terms, the provider can terminate access for any of many enumerated reasons, or for "No reason at all". Downloading illegal material is one of the reasons in every contract.

If the homeowner fails to follow the contract terms thru the negligence of not securing their wireless access, then they have abrogated the contract and are subject to disconnection at the OPTION of the provider.

TuxRaiderPen
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TuxRaiderPen

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Re: Due process

I'm not arguing the right's of the ISP, only that they justify termination.

Gbcue
Premium Member
join:2001-09-30
Santa Rosa, CA

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said by FFH5:

Internet access is not a right guaranteed by law.
Not yet, at least in this country.
camo281
join:2004-06-09
Parker, CO

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first, let me say that I'm a long time member/troll but this is my first time ever participating in a discussion

I have a friend that uses qwest dsl and I can confirm that they will cut you off.

He was in the middle of using xbox live when his Internet connection shut off. After doing the standard modem shut down and router restart and his Internet connection didn't return, he called qwest. What they told him was that they ha recieved a complain from NBC/Uniersal saying that his ip address was logged after downloading several episodes of Curb Your Enthusiasm torrents.

To make a long story short, after more than an hour on the phone and a whole lot of begging to keep his Internet connection (qwest is the only available provider in his apartment complex) they turned it back on and he hasn't used BT since.
k1ll3rdr4g0n
join:2005-03-19
Homer Glen, IL

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to TuxRaiderPen
said by TuxRaiderPen:

No investigation? Nothing? Just, "Here's an IP and what was downloaded" thing? This clearly shows, despite how TCP/IP connectivity works, those who appear guilty are not so guilty. Unless she gave her access away, but then again, how are you going to prove that? Wiretaps? blech...
There was a study done back, what, a year ago? When a professor used a malformed request to a torrent tracker and was able to get the university's IP addresses for some printers in the tracker. The University was sent warning letters for the printers.

And if you don't secure your wireless with at least WEP you are only asking for trouble. There are a lot of ignorant people out there. Drive by wifi hijacking!
And if someone does do something bad, you are on the hook no matter what.

Someone should submit the IP address of dslreports or cnet to a tracker and rattle some cages .

The only thing they industry wants is more money without giving up any present holds in technology. We should contact the MPAA and see if they deem VHS as "current technology".

optemino
join:2009-10-13
Patterson, CA

optemino

Member

haha

arrg!

hescominsoon
join:2003-02-18
Brunswick, MD

hescominsoon

Member

I'm so paranoid now, I won't buy music or movies online ever

This is what they really want.
ISurfTooMuch
join:2007-04-23
Tuscaloosa, AL

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ISurfTooMuch

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Re: I'm so paranoid now, I won't buy music or movies online ever

How about not buying them at all. Why give money to these people? It's like complaining about how the crack dealers are ruining the neighborhood but still buying from them.
88615298 (banned)
join:2004-07-28
West Tenness

88615298 (banned)

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Re: I'm so paranoid now, I won't buy music or movies online ever

said by ISurfTooMuch:

How about not buying them at all. Why give money to these people? It's like complaining about how the crack dealers are ruining the neighborhood but still buying from them.
You realize that's stupid. You don't want to give them money fine. But also don't download them either. Not wanting to pay no matter what the reason doesn't justify you having the content.

Gbcue
Premium Member
join:2001-09-30
Santa Rosa, CA

Gbcue

Premium Member

Re: I'm so paranoid now, I won't buy music or movies online ever

said by 88615298:

said by ISurfTooMuch:

How about not buying them at all. Why give money to these people? It's like complaining about how the crack dealers are ruining the neighborhood but still buying from them.
You realize that's stupid. You don't want to give them money fine. But also don't download them either. Not wanting to pay no matter what the reason doesn't justify you having the content.
Why is it "stupid"? He gave an analogy right there. I bolded it for you.
88615298 (banned)
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West Tenness

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said by hescominsoon:

This is what they really want.
If you are getting them from LEGAL sources why worry?
Expand your moderator at work
caco
Premium Member
join:2005-03-10
Whittier, AK

caco

Premium Member

So she is technical recruiter

who can't secure her router. Hey that is who I want intervieiwing people on my behalf.

Maybe Qwest should have been more thorough but this idiot caused the problem by not having a secure setup.

•••••••••
amungus
Premium Member
join:2004-11-26
America

amungus

Premium Member

well

I think there should be a way to contest such an accusation, especially if/when you're suddenly offline. Just because an internet acct. is in one person's name doesn't mean they are somehow all suddenly network administrators with the knowledge and tools to monitor and control their home network.

Just because you are responsible for paying the bill does not automatically mean you should be required to know about every single packet that goes through your network. First of all, it's just not possible for the average home user. Second, how is one person supposed to be in control of what another person does with their own computer, on their own time?

I'm sure there are people who would love to make it mandatory for you to install some kind of mini-Websense in every house, which would also report on everything you do automatically... And then the "if you ain't got nothin' to hide" crowd would be sold on it... might as well sell the internet to AOL if it ever comes to that kind of scenario.

There is just no way to put this genie back in the bottle. The most obvious thing to do would be a suitable legal alternative, but as the years tick away, we still have yet to see such a system. Sure, there are a few options, but nothing's come close to what iTunes, Rhapsody, and others have done for music.

Give people a reason to want a legal service and the "underground" trading of files goes back to just that - underground - not so far into mainstream that ISPs should have to boot their customers.

In the meantime, since ISPs are booting people, there ought to be a way to contest it fairly. Say you are in this person's situation, it's kind of like being escorted out of somewhere because somebody else ran up and depantsed you, then scurried off laughing while you got in trouble. Not only is it unfair, it's embarrassing, literally

••••••
Mr Matt
join:2008-01-29
Eustis, FL

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Mr Matt

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ISP's must be regulated under title II!

ISP's must be regulated under title II of the communications act! In the good old days of the telephone company monopoly the consumer had a referee to protect them against telephone company abuse, the state public service or utility commission. Consumers that were victims of arbitrary actions by the local telephone company and filed complaints were reviewed by the commission and appropriate action taken, including sanctions against offending telephone companies. Sanctions included fines and reversal of unsupported fees charged consumers. In order to prevent ISP abuse broadband service must be reclassified as a service that falls under Title II of the Communications Act. An article related to this matter was published in ars technica:

»arstechnica.com/telecom/ ··· aign=rss

ISP's are sweating the reclassification of internet access from an information service to a telecommunications service making ISP's telecommunication common carriers. Once reclassified ISP's can be regulated under State Public Service/Utility Commissions. Arbitrary actions by ISP's could be reviewed by the commissions and the situation resolved. I would not hold out to much hope that a change will take place, in view of the amount of payola the ISP's are giving to Federal Lawmakers.

SimbaSeven
I Void Warranties
join:2003-03-24
Billings, MT

SimbaSeven

Member

Re: ISP's must be regulated under title II!

..with everything going VoIP lately and the copper infrastructure being dismantled, it's just a matter of time before it happens.
ciucca
join:2004-05-24
Westfield, NJ

ciucca

Member

They have no Right!

Are we now communist China? I pay for my internet access, I can do whatever I want with it, as long as I pay my bill and do not circumvent their network.

What happened to the internet? It used to be the wild west, for the technically inclined, now it is a tool of the government. It used to be the only place you could get "real" information about any subject. These days it seems to only be a home shopping network.

How sad.

•••••
88615298 (banned)
join:2004-07-28
West Tenness

88615298 (banned)

Member

What idiot downloads SouthPark?

Whoever that idiot is should be beaten for being dumb. You can go to southparkstudios.com and watch every episode ever made for free. LEGALLY.

•••••
Pv8man
join:2008-07-24
Hammond, IN

Pv8man

Member

Agency calls for global Cyberwarefare treaty

They want to establish a global treaty, which would make internet users have to apply for an "internet drivers license" to browse the web.

»rawstory.com/2010/01/age ··· b-users/

••••••••

chong673
join:2001-11-18
Jonesboro, GA

chong673

Member

I hope it doesnt happen here

We should have freedom of choice. This is USA, not China!

winsyrstrife
River City Bounce
Premium Member
join:2002-04-30
Brooklyn, NY

winsyrstrife

Premium Member

Please secure your router

Much worse things can happen than a warning from your ISP & the Entertainment Industry, due to a compromised wireless connection . Please-secure-your-router. Tell your friends / neighbors. I might print out some pamphlets for my neighborhood and hand them out this weekend. I shouldn't see 10 unsecured wireless connections / MAC filtering only / weak WEP protection right off the bat when I scan.

Are the ISPs sending out friendly how-To E-mails / letters on how to secure your network & privacy? That would be much better proactive attitude, instead of waiting for a complaint from the MPAA / RIAA, and being forced to take an image-tarnishing stance against your customers.

•••

r81984
Fair and Balanced
Premium Member
join:2001-11-14
Katy, TX

r81984

Premium Member

What a mess

A company should not be doing things like this.
Kicking people off without being convicted of a crime and kicking people off for excess consumption.

1. Encryption and things like peer block should prevent this, but what if a virus was relaying P2P traffic?? If it is legit they can convict them in court of a crime and get a judge to take away their internet connection.

2. You can't have excess consumption on a network. The ISP has full control of how much you can use your connection. You can only use 100% of your connection it is impossible to use an excess of your connection.

Qwestions
@dmerz.net

Qwestions

Anon

Questions

Qwest is also has "3 strikes". First offence you get a temporary shut off. You can get it turned back on by calling tech support and they would be able to send an email regarding the "illegal content". Second would be the same proccess. Third one is the termination of contract.

Questions:
1. By the first warning, dont you think its time to act?
2. Is it the second warning not enough?
3. By not securing your wireless, does that exempt you from dmca.
4. Hypothetical scenario: Do you need the police to secure your house or do you take neccessary precaution to secure your house?

And yes Qwest does boot users for violating dmca. saw it once happened. they had switch isp in the process.

Tron4Net
join:2010-01-14
Corrales, NM

Tron4Net

Member

Poor lady from Colorado

Qwest you suck! The internet doesn't need nannies or police! I hope you get sued and the lady from Colorado switches to another ISP. Homey don't play that!
iansltx
join:2007-02-19
Austin, TX

iansltx

Member

Re: Poor lady from Colorado

If another ISP is available...
rims
join:2000-10-22
Phoenix, AZ

rims

Member

Interesting but one sided

Missing from the discussion is the legal pressure facing Qwest for copyright infringement by its customers.

I am sure Qwest would rather its customers download South Park, and otherwise get used to a life requiring high bandwidth, since that is their business model. The legal requirements forced upon them is what is really at issue here.