Qwest Denies Using FTTN Glitch To Kill CLECsTells us DSL/FTTN interference exists, denies they're taking advantage... ( old news - 02:29PM Thursday Dec 18 2008) tags: competition · business · telco · networking · Qwest.net · XMission · DSL EXTREMEOver the weekend, we noted that a growing number of CLEC technicians were complaining that Qwest's new FTTN/ADSL2+ upgrades were causing interference for some customers who remained on vanilla DSL (CLEC Or Qwest). According to the technicians, instead of fixing the problem, Qwest has been using the technical issue in order to upsell customers to new FTTN service. Since CLECs can't share Qwest's new infrastructure, CLECs are suggesting this is one way that Qwest could finally kill off pesky Qwest competition once and for all. "I can confirm that this is a huge issue in the Denver area," says a CLEC tech in our forums. "If there is a FTTN circuit in the same count as a ADSL circuit, it will either kill the ADSL circuit completely, or destroy the speeds," he says. "Qwest techs are being told to cut any problem circuits to FTTN -- If you are a CLEC, you have no choice but to cut the circuit, and use Qwest as an ISP." Techs from Qwest competitors in Utah, XMission and DSLExtreme, have the same complaint. Qwest documentation confirms a problem exists. Our goal is to make every effort to resolve the issue through technical intervention and move on. -Qwest, concerning FTTN/DSL interference |
Qwest confirmed to me that the problem is power interference between the central-office generated ATM DSL and their fiber-based IP broadband (FTTN). "The foundation of interference between the central-office based ATM DSL service and the remote terminal-fed IP based DSL (FTTN) is a disparity in power levels between the two services served by the same cross box," Qwest says. Spokesperson Monica Martinez tells me they make every attempt to repair this issue, either by making adjustments at the central office or the remote terminal. Martinez says a fallback option is to move the customer over to FTTN and serve as a "behind the scenes" provider for the CLEC. "We understand this might not seem ideal," says Martinez, "but the impact is minimal, and it allows the ISP/CLEC to maintain the end-user relationship." With regards to the claim that Qwest is using the interference to an anticompetitive advantage, "the answer is absolutely not," insists the company. "Our goal is to make every effort to resolve the issue through technical intervention and move on," says Martinez. "However, if using Qwest to access the Internet becomes necessary this is a solution that allows the ISP/CLEC and the end-user to keep their relationship, but Qwest becomes the Internet access provider." The telco says they try to be as "accommodating as practicable to all involved." Any technicians who work in Qwest territory (for Qwest or a CLEC) have anything to add? Related:- Qwest Looking Ripe For Acquisition
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 viperlmw Premium join:2005-01-25
·Qwest.net
| Follow the process If CLECs ensure their customer opens the repair ticket with them, they are able to maintain control of the process and ensure their customer stays their customer. This may require a change in mindset with some CLECs, as they often tell their customer to handle repair issues with the incumbent (Qwest). | |
|   pnh102 Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty Premium join:2002-05-02 Mount Airy, MD | Go Qwest! Better late than never to move into the late 20th century. -- Blagojevich / Madoff 2012! | |
|  Telus Lurker Premium join:2008-11-25 Surrey, BC
| I've seen it. I've seen this in my area, I work for a Canadian ILEC. The CLEC signal just isn't strong enough by the time it reaches the cabinet to survive over the crosstalk of a strong signal originating in the cabinet.
There really is no way around this, in cases where the cabinet is a long way from the CO. The only way to avoid it is to cancel FTTN, but that denies higher speeds to the ILEC's customers.
Competition vs. progress. | |
|  |  qworster
join:2001-11-25 Los Angeles, CA
·Brand X Internet
·RoadRunner Cable
·Vonage
·DSL EXTREME
1 edit | Re: I've seen it. said by Telus Lurker :There really is no way around this, in cases where the cabinet is a long way from the CO. The only way to avoid it is to cancel FTTN, but that denies higher speeds to the ILEC's customers. Competition vs. progress. You are wrong.
Qwest could open up their fiber ATM/DSL network to CLECs. That would IMMEDIATELY level the playing field. The fact that they won't speaks VOLUMES about their candor! | |
|  |  |  fiberguy My views are my own. Premium join:2005-05-20
| Re: I've seen it. Hmmm.. take the word of a phone tech who puts their hands on the equipment, and puts forth a reason why,..... or you, who comes in here with such a powerful and convincing post simply saying "you are wrong"..
.. any guess where my money goes?
How goes it in Los Angeles, CA - the land of AT&T and not Qwest? | |
|  |  |  |  qworster
join:2001-11-25 Los Angeles, CA
·Brand X Internet
·RoadRunner Cable
·Vonage
·DSL EXTREME
1 edit | Re: I've seen it. said by fiberguy :Hmmm.. take the word of a phone tech who puts their hands on the equipment, and puts forth a reason why,..... or you, who comes in here with such a powerful and convincing post simply saying "you are wrong".. .. any guess where my money goes? How goes it in Los Angeles, CA - the land of AT&T and not Qwest? So now you are claiming that allowing the CLECs access to the DSLAM located in the FTTN Remote Terminal would NOT level the playing field? How does that logic work?
PS: I lived in Tucson for years. I suffered at the hand of Qwest. How do you think I came up with the handle qworster? | |
|  |  |  |  |  fiberguy My views are my own. Premium join:2005-05-20 | Re: I've seen it. How do I think you came up with it?
you're an angry bitter person with nothing better to do than to make up a stupid name and bash companies on line instead of putting your time to better use?
.. just a hunch. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |   moby866 Premium join:2000-10-07 Above you | Re: I've seen it. You suck, please go die in a fire. Slowly. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |   digitalfreak
join:2005-12-09 49533
| Re: I've seen it. said by moby866 :You suck, please go die in a fire. Slowly. Just ignore the loser. He's one of a group of stooges who hang around here trying to get a rise out of people. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  fiberguy My views are my own. Premium join:2005-05-20
| Re: I've seen it. Sure am! .. at that's because I have an opinion that differs than others.. get over it, baby huey.
News flash... this is a discussion board, not a bitching fest.. if you can't handle an opinion that differs that yours, may I suggest leggo land? | |
|  dynodb Premium,VIP join:2004-04-21 Minneapolis, MN
| Not entirely accurate The glich doesn't happen any time a ADSL circuit is in the same count as an ADSL2+ circuit. In fact, ADSL and ADSL2+ are deployed from the same DSLAM- if that were true, none of the ADSL out of a DSLAM offering ADSL2+ would work very well.
It apparently occurs in a specific circumstance- when a longer ADSL line from the CO is in the same count as a shorter ADSL2+ one. | |
|  |  Telus Lurker Premium join:2008-11-25 Surrey, BC
| Re: Not entirely accurate said by dynodb :The glich doesn't happen any time a ADSL circuit is in the same count as an ADSL2+ circuit. In fact, ADSL and ADSL2+ are deployed from the same DSLAM- if that were true, none of the ADSL out of a DSLAM offering ADSL2+ would work very well. It apparently occurs in a specific circumstance- when a longer ADSL line from the CO is in the same count as a shorter ADSL2+ one. Good point. It can occur when any xDSL signal out of a CO is in the same distribution bundle as any xDSL signal out of a Cabinet/Node/SAC/JWI/Roadbox. | |
|  |  |   Deadpool Go Sens Go Premium,VIP join:2001-03-29 Canada | Re: Not entirely accurate Bingo. We call is 'spectral interference'. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |   Deadpool Go Sens Go Premium,VIP join:2001-03-29 Canada
·Bell Sympatico
| Re: Not entirely accurate said by qworster :said by Deadpool :Bingo. We call is 'spectral interference'. No, it's called crosstalk. My post from the other day addresses this: » The bottom line is this: Potato, Potatoe. Every company likes to invent their own terms.  -- Disclaimer: If I express an opinion, it is my own opinion, not that of Bell or its related companies. | |
|  |  |  |  |  dynodb Premium,VIP join:2004-04-21 Minneapolis, MN | Re: Not entirely accurate You have no clue; I likely have forgotten more about DSLAMs than you will ever know.
Hint: It's not about "cabinets". | |
|  |  |  |  qworster
join:2001-11-25 Los Angeles, CA
·Brand X Internet
·RoadRunner Cable
·Vonage
·DSL EXTREME
2 edits | Re: Not entirely accurate said by dynodb :You have no clue; I likely have forgotten more about DSLAMs than you will ever know. Hint: It's not about "cabinets". Really?
You are the one that hasn't a clue. Do you even know what crosstalk is? How about a db (decibel)? Hint: BELL | |
|   en102 Canadian, eh?
join:2001-01-26 Valencia, CA
·RoadRunner Cable
·DSL EXTREME
| I wonder why AT&T doesn't have issues where VDSL is deployed at FTTN and customers are using indie DSL over AT&T wires from the CO?
I know I have used DSL-Extreme to AT&T's CO (no RT) and the only issues I had was when contractors were either line conditioning, or installing the VRAD. | |
|  |  Telus Lurker Premium join:2008-11-25 Surrey, BC
| Re: I wonder why said by en102 :AT&T doesn't have issues where VDSL is deployed at FTTN and customers are using indie DSL over AT&T wires from the CO? I know I have used DSL-Extreme to AT&T's CO (no RT) and the only issues I had was when contractors were either line conditioning, or installing the VRAD. It won't always cause problems. It's just like any noise issue, sometimes it matters, sometimes it doesn't. If the CO is close to the cabinet, the CO signal will be strong enough to survive. If the copper bundle has a low number of DSL circuits, the extra noise may not be an issue. | |
|  |  |  qworster
join:2001-11-25 Los Angeles, CA
·Brand X Internet
·RoadRunner Cable
·Vonage
·DSL EXTREME
1 edit | Re: I wonder why said by Telus Lurker :said by en102 :AT&T doesn't have issues where VDSL is deployed at FTTN and customers are using indie DSL over AT&T wires from the CO? I know I have used DSL-Extreme to AT&T's CO (no RT) and the only issues I had was when contractors were either line conditioning, or installing the VRAD. It won't always cause problems. It's just like any noise issue, sometimes it matters, sometimes it doesn't. If the CO is close to the cabinet, the CO signal will be strong enough to survive. If the copper bundle has a low number of DSL circuits, the extra noise may not be an issue. There are two possibilities.
First, it's possible that AT&T keeps the Central office cables out of their remote terminal DSLAM. This is possibly why most AT&T installations have two cabinets. One cabinet is a pass through of the C.O. cable (otherwise known as a 'B' box) and the other is the fiber DSLAM. What they do is pull pairs out of the B Box that are to be used with the local DSLAM. It's also possible that AT&T offers CLECs access to their fiber Remote Terminals. It's well known that they DO offer CLECS access to their copper RT's | |
|  |  |  |   ArgMeMatey
join:2001-08-09 Milwaukee, WI
·AT&T Midwest
| Re: I wonder why This is an interesting wrinkle in the world of copper competition.
There are two possible reason Qwest is giving CLECs the option of using Qwest facilities and services:
1. It is required by law 2. If they didn't do it they think they would get sued.
Would Qwest's DSL wholesale rates be regulated to the level that the CLEC using them can make a profit?
In the current state of declining revenue Qwest might be able to convince regulators that they can't offer wholesale DSL cheaply enough to make it worth doing. Therefore, goodbye competitors. -- USNG: 16TDN2870 Find your Lat-Long: Geocoder | |
|  |  |  |  |  fiberguy My views are my own. Premium join:2005-05-20
| Re: I wonder why As far as I'm concerned, they can get the parasites off the ILEC's lines. If competitors want to build a business selling internet, then they can build the networks to do it themselves and create real competition.
I've never understood the mindset of building a business off of the back of another company and expecting to be able to sustain that model.. it just can't happen. Sooner or later, that business WILL fail. They're simply one regulatory change away from being out of business so why would anyone build a business on this model?
I'm not looking for an answer - I could care less about any Utopian reason why its done.. it's simply non-sustainable and is bound to fail so why bother? | |
|  |  |  |  |  |   Gflash
@bellsouth.net | Re: I wonder why Because it is always cheaper to steal someone else's work through regulation- and sell it - than it is to do the work yourself. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  qworster
join:2001-11-25 Los Angeles, CA
·Brand X Internet
·RoadRunner Cable
·Vonage
·DSL EXTREME
4 edits | Uhm...you are REWRITING HISTORY! The ILECs AGREED to allow CLECS to PAY FOR their lines wholesale, in exchange for the ILECs being allowed to get into the long distance business. Let me restate this a simpler way: If the ILECs had NOT agreed to this there would be no AT&T or Verizon as they are today!
Of course, once the ILECs got what THEY wanted, the lobbied (read:BRIBED) the Powell Republican FCC to exempt DSL from the line sharing agreeement. Even worse, the decision was written up as DSL DEREGULATION!
Their bizarre reasoning was that if there were NO rules requiring ILECs to share then that was deregulation.
Again though, NO ONE said anything about the quid pro quo.
Ironically the very reason this line sharing requirement was written into the Communications Act of 1996 was BECAUSE of DSL!
So, once again the ILECs got to HAVE their cake and EAT IT TOO, while the CLECs were left to pick up the crumbs.
Next time, learn the FACTS and stop being a shill for big business! Believe me, they could give a rat's A$$ about you! | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  fiberguy My views are my own. Premium join:2005-05-20
| Re: Uhm...you are REWRITING HISTORY! said by qworster :Next time, learn the FACTS and stop being a shill for big business! Believe me, they could give a rat's A$$ about you! Watch your mouth ASS! | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |   moby866 Premium join:2000-10-07 Above you | Re: Uhm...you are REWRITING HISTORY! You suck, please go die in a fire. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  demoniacs
join:2007-07-17 | Re: Uhm...you are REWRITING HISTORY! concast maybe but not qwest. qwest doesnt have usage cap or if they do i have to see one who go over the limit. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  fiberguy My views are my own. Premium join:2005-05-20
| I think you're an idiot. Becuase my opinion differs than yours, I'm a shill. I think personally you're a 5 year old with no life.
I think you're a shill for the 3rd party ISP... since you take their side, you MUST be, right? See how stupid that sounds?
My opinion is what it is.. get over it. The moment you can grow up, participate in a discussion with out bringing in your goofy drug induced conspiracy theory, maybe this site will actually be worth what it used to be - that is before romper room came to play.
In case you haven't noticed.. reality is this and it's simply.. these "big bad" ISP operators BUILT their damn networks and if you don't like it, this is a free country where you are most certainly welcome to dump your own money into one.. and I hope you do.. I'd love to see your upopian views of the network come into play.. wait, they are.. socialism is coming to America.. Enjoy it!
The bottom line is if you don't like it, who are you or anyone to tell those who own it WHAT to do with it?
I personally don't like what some of the players are doing either, but guess what.. it's called competition and this is what you get out of it! .. you get these bent rules.. bottom line is that the consumer is 50% of the problem and no one is wiling to stand up to the plate and take credit.
Next time you call in to a company threatening to cancel your service, knowing damn well you're not, just remember all these stupid rules that come to play with caps and other BS surcharges and fees.
It's not all about the big evil companies.. it's called "the market place" and consumers are part OF it. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  qworster
join:2001-11-25 Los Angeles, CA
·Brand X Internet
·RoadRunner Cable
·Vonage
·DSL EXTREME
4 edits | Re: Uhm...you are REWRITING HISTORY! said by fiberguy :I think you're an idiot. Becuase my opinion differs than yours, I'm a shill. I think personally you're a 5 year old with no life. I think you're a shill for the 3rd party ISP... since you take their side, you MUST be, right? See how stupid that sounds? My opinion is what it is.. get over it. The moment you can grow up, participate in a discussion with out bringing in your goofy drug induced conspiracy theory, maybe this site will actually be worth what it used to be - that is before romper room came to play. In case you haven't noticed.. reality is this and it's simply.. these "big bad" ISP operators BUILT their damn networks and if you don't like it, this is a free country where you are most certainly welcome to dump your own money into one.. and I hope you do.. I'd love to see your upopian views of the network come into play.. wait, they are.. socialism is coming to America.. Enjoy it! The bottom line is if you don't like it, who are you or anyone to tell those who own it WHAT to do with it? I personally don't like what some of the players are doing either, but guess what.. it's called competition and this is what you get out of it! .. you get these bent rules.. bottom line is that the consumer is 50% of the problem and no one is wiling to stand up to the plate and take credit. Next time you call in to a company threatening to cancel your service, knowing damn well you're not, just remember all these stupid rules that come to play with caps and other BS surcharges and fees. It's not all about the big evil companies.. it's called "the market place" and consumers are part OF it. The 'big bad' ISP phone companies (remember, we are talking DSL here) built their networks with both taxpayer provided subsidies AND a guaranteed monopoly for over 100 years!
Now you believe that they should still enjoy monopoly status for another 50-100 years?
Under their monopoly:
The USA phone system had some of the highest rates in the world.
ISDN was in wide usage in Europe for 20 years before it even became available here.
Many central offices operated with 100 year old mechanical technology step, panel or crossbar equipment well into the 1990s. I lived in one of those communities. Until 1993, we didn't have touch tone service and only had to dial 5 digits locally. I ran a BBS there and my modems would not connect over 14,400 due to all the noise on the lines. This was Verizon, by the way!
That community STILL does not have DSL available over half of it.
Remember back in the monopoly days when BELL forced you to RENT phones from them?
Guess what forced the telcos to come into the 20 th century? COMPETITION!. The decision breaking up the bell monopoly in the 1980s resulted in an explosion in technology unlike any seen in the previous 100 years. It resulted in call rates dropping by over 70%!
Now YOU would have all this come back???!!! And you claim to not be a corporate shill? C'mon! We all know better!.
PS: Pole attachments are a PUBLIC RESOURCE! The phone poles are filled beyond capacity. Where would you have companies willing to build their own networks, PUT their lines? | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  fiberguy My views are my own. Premium join:2005-05-20
| Re: Uhm...you are REWRITING HISTORY! Pole capacity is not filled to capacity, for one. Second, I'm talking about CABLE ISPs who built their own networks. DSL by the telephone was not subsidized by tax payer money. You DO know that the telephone companies DO make profits don't you? They DO have money to run their own installs. The tax payer money is used to build out the lines - period.
You're sitting here putting words in my mouth..
and GOD FUCKING DAMN IT! I do NOT shill for the companies - learn to read! You are like anyone else here is is fair weathered and uses the least path of resistance when it comes to an argument. I have slammed both cable and phone here and yes, I will admit, I slam phone more - becuase they deserve it as you said in your own post! They raped this country for years for a utility. Cable, if they want to, is a luxury and if they want to run themselves into the poor house are more than welcome to. Television remains an option in this country outside of OTA programming.
I agree with you when it comes to phone companies not pulling their weight. They are like bad unions in this country that look to the government for survival and life lines. Cable came into play and saw an opportunity to extend a second line of service to the consumer which, today, is forcing the hand of telephone to compete for once. And, when the chips are down, they run to the government for more money and rules that cap cable so they can't do exactly what competition is supposed to do.
Telephone deserved to be slapped hard back in the 80's and unfortunately it all amounted to nothing more than a soccer mom's time out today. Phone is king for inventing fees and surcharges. What forced the telephone company, a tax payer subsidized utility, to stop renting telephones was the government and it was the best move that ever happened.
People need to stop thinking that cable and telephone are the same - they are not! Cable was built on private money while telephone was built on partial government money. One is a utility, the other is a luxury.
There is more room on poles to build more services.. and you also have to remember, WHO owns the pole? Most are owned by power, some by phone, and a few owned by cable. There are ares that I know that have 1 power, 1 phone, and three cable services. You CAN build services closer than they are today. The issue is that there is not enough consumer demand to have that many services which allow for more than what we have out there to sustain a viable business model. There are cities out there with over-builders and they are certainly not rolling int he dough. Even Utopia isn't doing too well.
No where in my post did I call for anyone to bring all that crap back. What I remotely said, that would trigger what you claimed, was that we don't have a right to tell the private companies what to do with their businesses.. if you want to do it better, drop your own money and do it right. In a free and open market, that's the rule. You're trying to mix socialism and capitalism together and it won't work. Government is supposed to set a basic set of rules (regulation) and leave it be. The free market place will decide. Where the failure has been is TOO much government involvement. When a free market company comes in and decides the rules don't fit their needs, THEY want them changed so they buy their changes from their paid pieces. Its government which is corrupt and making the problem here. And yes, PEOPLE.. WE THE PEOPLE are half the market place and responsible for 50% of the issues in the free market place today. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |   myosh
join:2001-05-03 Cupertino, CA
·Pacific Bell - SBC
| said by fiberguy :I think you're an idiot. Becuase my opinion differs than yours, I'm a shill. I think personally you're a 5 year old with no life... The moment you can grow up, participate in a discussion with out bringing in your goofy drug induced conspiracy theory, maybe this site will actually be worth what it used to be - that is before romper room came to play... OK, so who's the 5 year old?
said by fiberguy :Next time you call in to a company threatening to cancel your service, knowing damn well you're not, just remember all these stupid rules that come to play with caps and other BS surcharges and fees. There WON'T be a next time because I don't play that game. If I call in to cancel service (like when I dumped Comcast for DSL), I'm not looking for another "promotional" handout for six months, I actually cancel the service.
said by fiberguy :...with out bringing in your goofy drug induced conspiracy theory... This is no conspiracy theory, it's as plain as the nose on your face. AT&T and the cable companies are implementing caps to protect their video services. They don't want their broadband customers to use competing services like Netflix and iTunes. Is this competition? Is this a competitive market place? Yeah, sure.  | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  fiberguy My views are my own. Premium join:2005-05-20
| Re: Uhm...you are REWRITING HISTORY! I'm calling you the 5 year old, or did you not see that?
Second, I don't agree with caps.. I never have. BUT, I DO agree with overages if reasonable. If you don't want to pay overage charges, don't go over. However, I support ANY ISP in placing an overage charge at a certain level to protect their business model and sustainability. OTHERWISE, what you wind up with is a telephone and possibly cable companies that can't compete with what often amounts to piracy and those businesses that chose to operate as leaches on the back of their COMPETITION.
Yes, there HAS to be protection in place for the competitive market place or you'll have cable and phone spending billions to run networks while companies like netflix, amazon, iTunes, etc. spend a very small percentage and take no risks to the greater system to push their product an make a buck at the same time.
Again, it's your socialist agenda at play here that is clouding reason. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |   digitalfreak
join:2005-12-09 49533
| said by fiberguy :said by qworster :Next time, learn the FACTS and stop being a shill for big business! Believe me, they could give a rat's A$$ about you! Watch your mouth ASS! Nice comeback. No wonder nobody cares about what you have to say. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  fiberguy My views are my own. Premium join:2005-05-20 | Re: Uhm...you are REWRITING HISTORY! When did you become "everyone"... or are you just representing the whiners club? | |
|  misko
join:2005-08-11 Elk River, MN | reply Lets not forget that qwest is only following the rules set forth by the PUC | |
|   j0tt0
@livewirenet.com
| The TRUTH "Monica Martinez tells me they make every attempt to repair this issue, either by making adjustments at the central office or the remote terminal."
This is simply not true. I work with this issue almost daily. I also worked for Qwest as a DSL tech for 7 years, and have close friends that are still DSL techs here in the Denver area.
What i am seeing in the field, and what current QWEST DSL TECHs are confirming, is that when there is a trouble ticket generated on a DSL circuit, and the dispatched tech determines that FTTN has been installed at that cross box, the tech automatically says that the trouble is being caused by the FTTN. They do no testing at all. They either call Assignments to find out, or physically look in the cross box. If it is a Qwest customer, they cut them to FTTN. If it is a CLEC they do nothing but close the ticket and report to us that the end user needs to be cut to FTTN. We, the CLEC, then have to follow the process to have them cut over. By doing so, we can no longer be their ISP, which cripples our ability to take care of those customers. It can take up to weeks by the time we have the customer cut over to FTTN. During that time the customer has been down, and are they ready to go back to Qwest. | |
|   georgejungle
@iauq.com | FioS Are CLEC's allowed to use Verizon's fios FTTH, if not, why not. | |
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