ChiyoSave Me Konata-Chan Premium Member join:2003-02-20 Salisbury, NC |
Chiyo
Premium Member
2009-Jun-8 5:48 pm
only if you live next door to the CO?So I remember when the 7mbps came out but I couldn't get it because I was too far. The best I could get was 1.5 at the time and I recentlly checked and still can only get 1.5.
Do you need to pitch a tent right outside the CO to get the 40megs? | |
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| Rob_ Premium Member join:2008-07-16 Mary Esther, FL |
Rob_
Premium Member
2009-Jun-8 6:01 pm
Re: only if you live next door to the CO?if this is fiber, it should be ok. similar to cable. watch it will take forever for the rest of us to see speeds + pricing like this!
-Rob | |
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| | dvd536as Mr. Pink as they come Premium Member join:2001-04-27 Phoenix, AZ |
dvd536
Premium Member
2009-Jun-9 1:42 am
Re: only if you live next door to the CO?said by Rob_:if this is fiber, it should be ok. similar to cable. watch it will take forever for the rest of us to see speeds + pricing like this! Unlike Cox cable, these aren't the "out the door" prices. add about another $20/mo for the unfees. and you'll also STILL be giving up 15% of your bandwidth on tired old pppoe overhead[on the 40/20 plan you'll give up 6mbps downstream and 3mbps upload assuming you're one of the handful of people that can GET IT] | |
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| en102Canadian, eh? join:2001-01-26 Valencia, CA |
to Chiyo
VDSL2+ should be able to give you ~40Mbps up to a decent distance (~3000'). I'm assuming that Qwest is deploying RT's near the each breakout box. | |
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| Smith6612 MVM join:2008-02-01 North Tonawanda, NY |
to Chiyo
Next to the CO if I know the specs of VDSL2 correctly will give you over 100Mbps of possible sync rate at least on the download side | |
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| tobyTroy Mcclure join:2001-11-13 Seattle, WA |
to Chiyo
said by Chiyo:Do you need to pitch a tent right outside the CO to get the 40megs? No that is just plain silly. They are actually going allow people to live in their COs. People would get a big speed jump if they just connected the RTs with fibre from the COs. | |
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Re: only if you live next door to the CO?said by toby:No that is just plain silly. They are actually going allow people to live in their COs. Will you have to be registered as a CLEC with the state PUC if you want to sleep in the CO? | |
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| dvd536as Mr. Pink as they come Premium Member join:2001-04-27 Phoenix, AZ |
to Chiyo
said by Chiyo:Do you need to pitch a tent right outside the CO to get the 40megs? You can but you could STILL be 4000+ WIRE FEET from the CO. | |
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to Chiyo
said by Chiyo:So I remember when the 7mbps came out but I couldn't get it because I was too far. The best I could get was 1.5 at the time and I recentlly checked and still can only get 1.5. Do you need to pitch a tent right outside the CO to get the 40megs? | |
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| alchav join:2002-05-17 Saint George, UT |
to Chiyo
said by Chiyo:So I remember when the 7mbps came out but I couldn't get it because I was too far. The best I could get was 1.5 at the time and I recently checked and still can only get 1.5. Do you need to pitch a tent right outside the CO to get the 40megs? Remember this is old Copper, and it's not only distance but condition too. This Copper goes back 30-40+ years ago, and it was laid primarily for Telephone Service. Then DSL came along and High Speed Broadband was born. This Copper had to be conditioned for the higher speeds. Then VDSL came and everyone said, oh great we can use existing Copper, but this was not all true. All this existing Copper had to be conditioned or replaced for VDSL, and the Beancounters said no problem but there was a big problem. Now Technology has moved on and speeds have gone crazy, this old existing Copper will not support the needed demand. | |
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| | ross96 join:2000-11-02 Huntersville, NC |
ross96
Member
2009-Jun-9 9:41 pm
Re: only if you live next door to the CO?Actually even older in some instances. I'm 1900' from an AT&T Vrad on copper that was placed in the 1950's and guess what.....I sync at 55Mbps! using VDSL, VDSL2 would be even better. It can and is being done. | |
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| Calix 716GE-I Netgear Orbi RBK853 Netgear RAXE500
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to Chiyo
I live 3300 feet from the CO (I can see it from my house - not Russia though) and they can barely give me 4.3Mbps down now (should have 7Mbps). Had 10/10 with SprintION in 1998-2001 on the same copper. That was a DSL service!! So this "new" product will have to have some major new technology or these guys are going to have to get off their collective butts and start providing AND move TS back to the U.S. | |
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| | ChiyoSave Me Konata-Chan Premium Member join:2003-02-20 Salisbury, NC ·Hotwire Communic..
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Chiyo
Premium Member
2009-Jun-10 12:04 am
Re: only if you live next door to the CO?said by FarmerBob:I live 3300 feet from the CO (I can see it from my house - not Russia though) and they can barely give me 4.3Mbps down now (should have 7Mbps). Had 10/10 with SprintION in 1998-2001 on the same copper. That was a DSL service!! So this "new" product will have to have some major new technology or these guys are going to have to get off their collective butts and start providing AND move TS back to the U.S. Holy cow 10/10 in 1998 must of been so bad ass | |
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| | | Calix 716GE-I Netgear Orbi RBK853 Netgear RAXE500
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Re: only if you live next door to the CO?Not only 10/10, which consistently showed 10Mbps in speed tests and not this 60-80% BS, but Four (4) Digital Phone Lines, and the Modem/Adapter had its own built in battery back up and NO SERVICE TROUBLE for the whole time I had it. Tech Support would call me up to see how I was doing and chat. I think they were as lonely as the Maytag Repairman. I thought that was what DSL was. Until they were forced out of business by, you know who, Qwest. It was easier (cheaper) for them to quit instead of fight for their right of way. Then all that was left was this ADSL garbage, that when I asked of Qwest TS the other day why there was still a DL/UL speed difference, which I was told, "no one wants to upload". THEN the next day I received a letter telling me all about the new "2Gb Storage" that Qwest now has available for each on the machines on my network. Hmmm, no one wants to upload. I wrote back the the person that told me no upload and have yet to hear back. | |
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40/20 on VDSL2?That would be pretty awesome. If Qwest really does offer this at some point this year then I'll be even more disappointed in U-verse, which can only offer me 1.5mbps upload MAX.
Even though they don't compete with eachother I hope this could show what VDSL2 could do and what might be possible with AT&T U-verse in the future. ;_; | |
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| zed2608 Premium Member join:2007-09-30 Cleveland, TN |
zed2608
Premium Member
2009-Jun-9 12:48 am
Re: 40/20 on VDSL2?well at&t could offer those speeds right now if theyed get red of the hd and sd channels and only offer internet/phone | |
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delusion ftl
Anon
2009-Jun-8 6:16 pm
PPOAUnless things change dont forget to subract 10-20% of advertised speed to help offset the overhead of their PPOA protocol.
In reality the comcasts 16/2 is generally as fast or faster than Qwests 20/.8 | |
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| dynodb Premium Member join:2004-04-21 Minneapolis, MN |
dynodb
Premium Member
2009-Jun-8 6:33 pm
Re: PPOAPPPoA has nowhere near 10-20% overhead. In any case, they'd almost certainly be using PPPoE exclusively as they do with their current FTTN offerings.
The lion's share of overhead comes from DSL itself, thanks to it being based around ATM which has high overhead. Generally 12% is about the minimum in terms of overall overhead, with the average in the neighborhood of 15%. | |
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Re: PPOA53 bytes is alot of overhead. | |
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| | | dynodb Premium Member join:2004-04-21 Minneapolis, MN |
dynodb
Premium Member
2009-Jun-8 7:19 pm
Re: PPOAAnd PPPoA itself doesn't have 53 bytes overhead. I suspect that you're adding in TCP/IP and ATM (AAL5) overhead on top of that from PPPoA, which is comparatively small. | |
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Re: PPOAJust the ATM header. | |
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| | | | | dynodb Premium Member join:2004-04-21 Minneapolis, MN |
dynodb
Premium Member
2009-Jun-8 7:28 pm
Re: PPOAThat's separate from PPPoA. An entire ATM cell is only 53 bytes, 5 of which is AAL-5 overhead and 48 of which is user data. | |
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to longstreet
To clarify this, here is a FAQ entry I wrote about six years ago. It references ADSL but the numbers hold for VDSL: quote: The quoted "speed" is the sync rate between your modem and the DSLAM or RT port. This reflects the raw bitrate upon which everything else flows. Your data is encapsulated into Ethernet frames which are then encapsulated into TCP/IP packets which are then encapsulated into ATM cells which then are transmitted down the wire.
Actually the majority of the overhead isn't because of TCP/IP, its because of ATM (53 octet cells - 48 octet payload, 5 octet header). The PPPoE overhead is 8 octets per MTU (normally 1500 - this size of 1 Ethernet frame) The IP overhead is only 20 octets per MTU - PPPoE (normally 1492) and the TCP overhead is only 24 octets per MSS (normally 1452)
So thus:
PPPoE overhead is 0.53 % IP overhead is 1.30 % TCP overhead is 1.65 % ATM overhead, on the other hand is, 9.4 %
For total DSL delivery overhead of about 12.9 %, or 87.1% efficient.
Then there is the Ethernet overhead:
Ethernet overhead bytes: 12 gap + 8 preamble + 14 header + 4 trailer = 38 bytes/packet w/o 802.1q 12 gap + 8 preamble + 18 header + 4 trailer = 42 bytes/packet with 802.1q
Ethernet Payload data rates are thus: 1500/(38+1500) = 97.5293 % w/o 802.1q tags 1500/(42+1500) = 97.2763 % with 802.1q tags
Best case we're out another 2.5 percent just for using Ethernet...or 97.5% of 87.1%, for a final "efficiency" of 84.9%.
So therefore on a "perfect" 1536/384 line the max payload "speed" would be a tad over 1,300/326 kbps. A 3008/512 (sync) line delivers about 2554/435 (payload) and a 6016/768 (sync) line 5108/652 (payload).
Furthermore, ATM has services on top of it like IP does with TCP and UDP, introducing more overhead, for example, bridging Ethernet over ATM. Also, many of the data protocols within IP/TCP/UDP have even MORE overhead, depending on the protocol.
Every DSL provider does it the same way, the only way for a real improvement is to drop ATM, which isn't going to happen, as it is far too useful to drop, even with that kind of overhead
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| | | | | | en102Canadian, eh? join:2001-01-26 Valencia, CA |
en102
Member
2009-Jun-9 12:14 am
Re: PPOAYup, and I had ~2400-2500kbps on DSL-Extreme 3008/512kbps package. | |
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| | | | | | Ark4 join:2002-06-08 Lansing, MI |
to RadioDoc
I always sorta liked this picture explanation. | |
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to longstreet
Per frame, yes it is. BPON uses ATM while GPON doesn't...one big selling point for GPON (other than speed of course) since it makes network topology flatter and kills that pesky overhead.
Apologies for my post five minutes prior insinuating that PPPoX is the cause of most of the inefficiency; it's not. Heck, PPPoA is actually MORE efficient than PPPoE by a small margin, but there's that darned ATM overhead to deal with as a matter of course. | |
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| iansltx |
to delusion ftl
Actually, the post says no PPPoE/A so no 15% speed cut. Though even with the cut Qwest,s pricing is reasonably competitive. I'll take 40/30 over 50/10 any day especially when 50/10 is capped. | |
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| djrobx Premium Member join:2000-05-31 Reno, NV |
to delusion ftl
AT&T's VDSL no longer uses ATM, which what causes the majority of ADSL overhead. Speeds are much closer to advertised. I regularly get 17300-ish speed test results on my 18mbps service. | |
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dynodb Premium Member join:2004-04-21 Minneapolis, MN 1 edit |
dynodb
Premium Member
2009-Jun-8 6:20 pm
BewareSome of the info in that thread isn't exactly accurate. Grain of salt and all that.
And no, I'm not going to expand on it.
Let's just say the rollout (edit: if it happens) is much more involved than installing a new card in an existing DSLAM, and that it's going to take some time before widespread availability.
A positive step in any case though. | |
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FinallyIt's nice to see Qwest joining us in this decade...
If they want to be competitive then I think they will need to rollout lower pricing by a few dollars to $39.99 and drop the $10 "you don't have the $30+ phone service with us" fee. If they don't want to drop the fee then it should be integrated into the price. So on for their lowest tier it should be around $45.
In Denver, Comcast will soon be deploying their DOCSIS 3 upgrades with the lowest tier being 12/2 and Qwest could compete with their 12/5. However they can only do this if it is $55 but not if it is $62.99 + $15 in taxes. | |
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Re: FinallyNot sure about taxes and fees (will have to ask friends who have Qwest internet) but the price difference between dry and "wet" DSL is $5 on the lower tiers. So 12/5 would be $57 and 20/5 would be $70. Close to Comcast's pricing for 12/2 and in between 16/2 and 22/5, respectively. Though, assuming no ATM overhead, I'd take Qwest over Comcast due to the cap. I want my online backup back | |
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| danawhitakerSpace...The Final Frontier Premium Member join:2002-03-02 Thorndale, ON |
to jdjbuffalo
If only Qwest would stop by my street and boost us out of 1.5 land first. | |
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Re: Finallysaid by danawhitaker:If only Qwest would stop by my street and boost us out of 1.5 land first. Just drop qwest if you have a better alternative sadly the state you live in is dominated by qwest lobbyist faster alternative has been suppressed in your state and many other states so these dominant company can continue to sell us inferior product which cost not much less then faster internet service... Not everyone in my state or in ca has fios... fios is like the underdog which can compete with inferior dsl and cable internet service what i and cyberbeing have is considered a luxury and a decade into the future for most who are still stuck on slow internet provider a luxury that most would still wish they have even 10 years from now Its half as fast as T3 which cost 20K a month at 50mbps it would be faster then T3 | |
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Metatron2008You're it Premium Member join:2008-09-02 united state
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Tonight...Craig Moffet is screaming like a little girl... | |
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Prices and Speed?Damn, with those prices and speed makes me glad I live in the Bronx. I can choose ool boost/ultra or verzion Fios. Well once fios gets to my building. Rest of my block is wired alreeady | |
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RR slower than thisHeck on Roadrunner Midtown west side Man'h I'm only gotten 15-18 down & 495 up. So much for cable. But I did get them to lower the package price for a year. Connection finally became more stable. | |
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For Real?I jumped ship from qwest to comcast here in denver going from 7Mb/.7Mb to 16Mb/2Mb (not including powerboost, which has a dramatic effect on normal down/uploads). I may have to jump ship again if i can get the 40/20 or 20/5! | |
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tubbynetreminds me of the danse russe MVM join:2008-01-16 Gilbert, AZ |
price pointsPlatinum+ 7Mbps/5Mbps - $41.99 Titanium+ 12Mbps/5Mbps -$51.99 Quantum+ 20Mbps/5Mbps - $64.99 Ultimate 40Mbps/5Mbps - $99.99 Ultimate+ 40Mbps/20Mbps - $109.99
aside from the obvious problems that this is *with* a pots line, if you already subscribe to qwest for your pots voice, the price point is about right. all tiers have at least a 5 meg upload, which in the phoenix-metro market stomps on all d3 offerings (until cox lets loose with the 50/5 tier). if the cost voice pots voice was low enough, i think that i'd consider dropping my cox cable line (premier tier) and going with qwest. i'd much rather have the 7/5 tier over the 15/1.5 that i have now. the only thing that bumps my download speeds is roku - and even that really only pushes it to 10meg at best. with the added upload, my remote access would be greatly improved and if i leave some software behind, i can always grab it. plus with x11 over ssh, i can have access to all of my linux apps. its really a win. if this becomes a reality in the phoenix markets, cox might have to rethink their game plan a little. too much complacency breeds second place ratings... q. | |
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Zak_D_H Premium Member join:2007-01-04 Salt Lake City, UT |
Zak_D_H
Premium Member
2009-Jun-9 4:54 am
Not happy news.I am still chugging along with 1.5mb cap. I wish Qwest (as well as the other telco's) would worry about upgrading existing infrastructure to support regular ADSL speeds up to 7mb before they start cherry picking markets for VDSL. | |
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Re: Not happy news.said by Zak_D_H:I am still chugging along with 1.5mb cap. I wish Qwest (as well as the other telco's) would worry about upgrading existing infrastructure to support regular ADSL speeds up to 7mb before they start cherry picking markets for VDSL. Now, if Congress was smart (it isn't), it would make Broadband a "utility" service and spend cash to build a nationwide fiber network. Anyone could use it. No caps. No discrimination. If it costs $100 billion, that's fine since the productivity gains in the economy could be $100s of billions a year generating far more tax revenues. College costs could be cut 75% by HSI classes. Work-at-home jobs would probably see a 1000% increase making companies more productive since less overhead. It would also save hundreds of billions on oil use since people wouldn't be driving to work anyway. Wouldn't that also help American automakers too? Yep. Don't forget all the jobs needed to build it in the first place. Huge work for Telcos and Cable companies and other contractors. Yes, you should be able to throw phone and TV over it too. Now, that's a stimulus package if ever there was one. Just ask S. Korea. They may not use it to the full extent that it could be. Obama's $787 billion stimulus plan so far has been a failure (only 13% will be spent this year). | |
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TransmasterDon't Blame Me I Voted For Bill and Opus join:2001-06-20 Cheyenne, WY |
Crap and More CrapOh wow, higher speeds. I would be happy to at least get the 7mbps I am paying for. The only speed test that tell me this is what I am getting is the Qwest speed test, every speed tool available on this site tells me otherwise. Now I realize there is a lot of variable in these speed tests but you would think over a long period the speed would at least get over 4.5 mbps. | |
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| dynodb Premium Member join:2004-04-21 Minneapolis, MN |
dynodb
Premium Member
2009-Jun-9 2:15 pm
Re: Crap and More CrapA lot of speed tests don't play nice with 7M for some reason. Use the Qwest speed test or a large download from a fast site. | |
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Only for Metro areas.I spoke to a Qwest tech this morning and they have no plans to do vdsl2 network wide. It is only going to be a few metro areas. I'm on the 1.5 speed for life I guess. I think I will go to cable this year for phone and internet. I feel that we get treated as a bunch of idiots that live in the sticks. | |
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