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Qwest Shifting To VDSL2, Faster Speeds?
Rumblings in our forums about new speeds, new prices...

Since Qwest is hemorrhaging landline customers at an amazing pace (259,000 last quarter alone), they're eager to rebrand themselves as a next-generation broadband company. The problem is that Qwest is still nursing last-gen copper technology, their "next-gen" ADSL2+ upgrades (when they're available to consumers) offering downstream speeds up to 20Mbps, but upstream speeds limited to a paltry 896kbps. While Qwest advertises this as fiber Internet, it's simply not going to be competitive against DOCSIS 3.0.

But things may be changing, if a flurry of new posts to our forums are any indication. According to this post by someone claiming to have inside knowledge, Qwest is shifting from ADSL2+ technology to VDSL2 -- which should allow them to provide faster downstream and upstream speeds. According to the poster, Qwest later this month will be announcing a slew of new speed tiers, including some significantly faster tiers that top out at 40Mbps downstream and 20Mbps upstream. The new tiers and prices, according to the source:

quote:
Platinum+ 7Mbps/5Mbps - $41.99

Titanium+ 12Mbps/5Mbps -$51.99

Quantum+ 20Mbps/5Mbps - $64.99

Ultimate 40Mbps/5Mbps - $99.99

Ultimate+ 40Mbps/20Mbps - $109.99


Unlike AT&T, Qwest has no interest in becoming an IPTV operator, so they don't have to worry about HDTV signals eating up precious bandwidth. While AT&T has no real excuse, Qwest can't jump directly to fiber to the home because they simply don't have the financial resources -- or a wireless division cash cow. If the prices are real, they're not particularly impressive -- and these quotes prices jump $10 if users don't include a Qwest landline. Still, they're worlds better that what Qwest was trying to hoist upon consumers as a "next-gen" product.

So are they real? We've reached out to Qwest to confirm these plans, but have yet to hear back (we'll obviously update you when we do). One of our users notes that Qwest's price for life disclaimer does seem to reference the new Ultimate tier, supporting the claim of a new product launch. Forum discussion indicates the new tiers would only work with the Actiontec Q1000, and the upgrade simply requires a new card at the DSLAM. Corroborating posts claiming to be from inside the Qwest sales department also hint at a Denver launch.

As with all DSL, the problem for Qwest will again be distance -- something that's plagued AT&T since deciding to placate investors and prolong the inevitable shift to fiber. We'd also wonder just how limited the overall footprint reach of this new product will be, given Qwest's persistent debt, and the high volume of Qwest customers who are still slogging away on older ADSL technology. Hopefully we'll have more on this soon...
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Chiyo
Save Me Konata-Chan
Premium Member
join:2003-02-20
Salisbury, NC

Chiyo

Premium Member

only if you live next door to the CO?

So I remember when the 7mbps came out but I couldn't get it because I was too far. The best I could get was 1.5 at the time and I recentlly checked and still can only get 1.5.

Do you need to pitch a tent right outside the CO to get the 40megs?
Rob_
Premium Member
join:2008-07-16
Mary Esther, FL

Rob_

Premium Member

Re: only if you live next door to the CO?

if this is fiber, it should be ok. similar to cable. watch it will take forever for the rest of us to see speeds + pricing like this!

-Rob

dvd536
as Mr. Pink as they come
Premium Member
join:2001-04-27
Phoenix, AZ

dvd536

Premium Member

Re: only if you live next door to the CO?

said by Rob_:

if this is fiber, it should be ok. similar to cable. watch it will take forever for the rest of us to see speeds + pricing like this!
Unlike Cox cable, these aren't the "out the door" prices. add about another $20/mo for the unfees.
and you'll also STILL be giving up 15% of your bandwidth on tired old pppoe overhead[on the 40/20 plan you'll give up 6mbps downstream and 3mbps upload assuming you're one of the handful of people that can GET IT]

en102
Canadian, eh?
join:2001-01-26
Valencia, CA

en102 to Chiyo

Member

to Chiyo
VDSL2+ should be able to give you ~40Mbps up to a decent distance (~3000'). I'm assuming that Qwest is deploying RT's near the each breakout box.

Smith6612
MVM
join:2008-02-01
North Tonawanda, NY

Smith6612 to Chiyo

MVM

to Chiyo
Next to the CO if I know the specs of VDSL2 correctly will give you over 100Mbps of possible sync rate at least on the download side

toby
Troy Mcclure
join:2001-11-13
Seattle, WA

toby to Chiyo

Member

to Chiyo
said by Chiyo:

Do you need to pitch a tent right outside the CO to get the 40megs?
No that is just plain silly. They are actually going allow people to live in their COs.

People would get a big speed jump if they just connected the RTs with fibre from the COs.
patcat88
join:2002-04-05
Jamaica, NY

patcat88

Member

Re: only if you live next door to the CO?

said by toby:

No that is just plain silly. They are actually going allow people to live in their COs.
Will you have to be registered as a CLEC with the state PUC if you want to sleep in the CO?

dvd536
as Mr. Pink as they come
Premium Member
join:2001-04-27
Phoenix, AZ

dvd536 to Chiyo

Premium Member

to Chiyo
said by Chiyo:

Do you need to pitch a tent right outside the CO to get the 40megs?
You can but you could STILL be 4000+ WIRE FEET from the CO.

uid1307457
Premium Member
join:2005-12-30
Tempe, AZ

1 edit

uid1307457 to Chiyo

Premium Member

to Chiyo
said by Chiyo:

So I remember when the 7mbps came out but I couldn't get it because I was too far. The best I could get was 1.5 at the time and I recentlly checked and still can only get 1.5.

Do you need to pitch a tent right outside the CO to get the 40megs?

alchav
join:2002-05-17
Saint George, UT

alchav to Chiyo

Member

to Chiyo
said by Chiyo:

So I remember when the 7mbps came out but I couldn't get it because I was too far. The best I could get was 1.5 at the time and I recently checked and still can only get 1.5.

Do you need to pitch a tent right outside the CO to get the 40megs?
Remember this is old Copper, and it's not only distance but condition too. This Copper goes back 30-40+ years ago, and it was laid primarily for Telephone Service. Then DSL came along and High Speed Broadband was born. This Copper had to be conditioned for the higher speeds. Then VDSL came and everyone said, oh great we can use existing Copper, but this was not all true. All this existing Copper had to be conditioned or replaced for VDSL, and the Beancounters said no problem but there was a big problem. Now Technology has moved on and speeds have gone crazy, this old existing Copper will not support the needed demand.

ross96
join:2000-11-02
Huntersville, NC

ross96

Member

Re: only if you live next door to the CO?

Actually even older in some instances. I'm 1900' from an AT&T Vrad on copper that was placed in the 1950's and guess what.....I sync at 55Mbps! using VDSL, VDSL2 would be even better. It can and is being done.

FarmerBob
join:2000-12-21
Littleton, CO
Calix 716GE-I
Netgear Orbi RBK853
Netgear RAXE500

FarmerBob to Chiyo

Member

to Chiyo
I live 3300 feet from the CO (I can see it from my house - not Russia though) and they can barely give me 4.3Mbps down now (should have 7Mbps). Had 10/10 with SprintION in 1998-2001 on the same copper. That was a DSL service!! So this "new" product will have to have some major new technology or these guys are going to have to get off their collective butts and start providing AND move TS back to the U.S.

Chiyo
Save Me Konata-Chan
Premium Member
join:2003-02-20
Salisbury, NC
·Hotwire Communic..

Chiyo

Premium Member

Re: only if you live next door to the CO?

said by FarmerBob:

I live 3300 feet from the CO (I can see it from my house - not Russia though) and they can barely give me 4.3Mbps down now (should have 7Mbps). Had 10/10 with SprintION in 1998-2001 on the same copper. That was a DSL service!! So this "new" product will have to have some major new technology or these guys are going to have to get off their collective butts and start providing AND move TS back to the U.S.
Holy cow 10/10 in 1998 must of been so bad ass

FarmerBob
join:2000-12-21
Littleton, CO
Calix 716GE-I
Netgear Orbi RBK853
Netgear RAXE500

FarmerBob

Member

Re: only if you live next door to the CO?

Not only 10/10, which consistently showed 10Mbps in speed tests and not this 60-80% BS, but Four (4) Digital Phone Lines, and the Modem/Adapter had its own built in battery back up and NO SERVICE TROUBLE for the whole time I had it. Tech Support would call me up to see how I was doing and chat. I think they were as lonely as the Maytag Repairman.

I thought that was what DSL was. Until they were forced out of business by, you know who, Qwest. It was easier (cheaper) for them to quit instead of fight for their right of way. Then all that was left was this ADSL garbage, that when I asked of Qwest TS the other day why there was still a DL/UL speed difference, which I was told, "no one wants to upload". THEN the next day I received a letter telling me all about the new "2Gb Storage" that Qwest now has available for each on the machines on my network. Hmmm, no one wants to upload. I wrote back the the person that told me no upload and have yet to hear back.


kilometers3
join:2007-01-24
Sacramento, CA

1 edit

kilometers3

Member

40/20 on VDSL2?

That would be pretty awesome. If Qwest really does offer this at some point this year then I'll be even more disappointed in U-verse, which can only offer me 1.5mbps upload MAX.

Even though they don't compete with eachother I hope this could show what VDSL2 could do and what might be possible with AT&T U-verse in the future. ;_;
zed2608
Premium Member
join:2007-09-30
Cleveland, TN

zed2608

Premium Member

Re: 40/20 on VDSL2?

well at&t could offer those speeds right now if theyed get red of the hd and sd channels and only offer internet/phone

delusion ftl
@algx.net

delusion ftl

Anon

PPOA

Unless things change dont forget to subract 10-20% of advertised speed to help offset the overhead of their PPOA protocol.

In reality the comcasts 16/2 is generally as fast or faster than Qwests 20/.8
dynodb
Premium Member
join:2004-04-21
Minneapolis, MN

dynodb

Premium Member

Re: PPOA

PPPoA has nowhere near 10-20% overhead. In any case, they'd almost certainly be using PPPoE exclusively as they do with their current FTTN offerings.

The lion's share of overhead comes from DSL itself, thanks to it being based around ATM which has high overhead. Generally 12% is about the minimum in terms of overall overhead, with the average in the neighborhood of 15%.

longstreet
join:2004-11-14
Plano, TX

longstreet

Member

Re: PPOA

53 bytes is alot of overhead.
dynodb
Premium Member
join:2004-04-21
Minneapolis, MN

dynodb

Premium Member

Re: PPOA

said by longstreet:

53 bytes is alot of overhead.
And PPPoA itself doesn't have 53 bytes overhead. I suspect that you're adding in TCP/IP and ATM (AAL5) overhead on top of that from PPPoA, which is comparatively small.

longstreet
join:2004-11-14
Plano, TX

longstreet

Member

Re: PPOA

Just the ATM header.
dynodb
Premium Member
join:2004-04-21
Minneapolis, MN

dynodb

Premium Member

Re: PPOA

said by longstreet:

Just the ATM header.
That's separate from PPPoA.

An entire ATM cell is only 53 bytes, 5 of which is AAL-5 overhead and 48 of which is user data.

RadioDoc

join:2000-05-11
La Grange, IL

1 recommendation

RadioDoc to longstreet

to longstreet
said by longstreet:

Just the ATM header.
To clarify this, here is a FAQ entry I wrote about six years ago. It references ADSL but the numbers hold for VDSL:
quote:
The quoted "speed" is the sync rate between your modem and the DSLAM or RT port. This reflects the raw bitrate upon which everything else flows. Your data is encapsulated into Ethernet frames which are then encapsulated into TCP/IP packets which are then encapsulated into ATM cells which then are transmitted down the wire.

Actually the majority of the overhead isn't because of TCP/IP, its because of ATM (53 octet cells - 48 octet payload, 5 octet header). The PPPoE overhead is 8 octets per MTU (normally 1500 - this size of 1 Ethernet frame) The IP overhead is only 20 octets per MTU - PPPoE (normally 1492) and the TCP overhead is only 24 octets per MSS (normally 1452)

So thus:

PPPoE overhead is 0.53 %
IP overhead is 1.30 %
TCP overhead is 1.65 %
ATM overhead, on the other hand is, 9.4 %

For total DSL delivery overhead of about 12.9 %, or 87.1% efficient.

Then there is the Ethernet overhead:

Ethernet overhead bytes:
12 gap + 8 preamble + 14 header + 4 trailer = 38 bytes/packet w/o 802.1q
12 gap + 8 preamble + 18 header + 4 trailer = 42 bytes/packet with 802.1q

Ethernet Payload data rates are thus:
1500/(38+1500) = 97.5293 % w/o 802.1q tags
1500/(42+1500) = 97.2763 % with 802.1q tags

Best case we're out another 2.5 percent just for using Ethernet...or 97.5% of 87.1%, for a final "efficiency" of 84.9%.

So therefore on a "perfect" 1536/384 line the max payload "speed" would be a tad over 1,300/326 kbps. A 3008/512 (sync) line delivers about 2554/435 (payload) and a 6016/768 (sync) line 5108/652 (payload).

Furthermore, ATM has services on top of it like IP does with TCP and UDP, introducing more overhead, for example, bridging Ethernet over ATM. Also, many of the data protocols within IP/TCP/UDP have even MORE overhead, depending on the protocol.

Every DSL provider does it the same way, the only way for a real improvement is to drop ATM, which isn't going to happen, as it is far too useful to drop, even with that kind of overhead

en102
Canadian, eh?
join:2001-01-26
Valencia, CA

en102

Member

Re: PPOA

Yup, and I had ~2400-2500kbps on DSL-Extreme 3008/512kbps package.

Ark4
join:2002-06-08
Lansing, MI

Ark4 to RadioDoc

Member

to RadioDoc
Click for full size
I always sorta liked this picture explanation.
iansltx
join:2007-02-19
Austin, TX

iansltx to longstreet

Member

to longstreet
Per frame, yes it is. BPON uses ATM while GPON doesn't...one big selling point for GPON (other than speed of course) since it makes network topology flatter and kills that pesky overhead.

Apologies for my post five minutes prior insinuating that PPPoX is the cause of most of the inefficiency; it's not. Heck, PPPoA is actually MORE efficient than PPPoE by a small margin, but there's that darned ATM overhead to deal with as a matter of course.
iansltx

iansltx to delusion ftl

Member

to delusion ftl
Actually, the post says no PPPoE/A so no 15% speed cut. Though even with the cut Qwest,s pricing is reasonably competitive. I'll take 40/30 over 50/10 any day especially when 50/10 is capped.

djrobx
Premium Member
join:2000-05-31
Reno, NV

djrobx to delusion ftl

Premium Member

to delusion ftl
AT&T's VDSL no longer uses ATM, which what causes the majority of ADSL overhead. Speeds are much closer to advertised. I regularly get 17300-ish speed test results on my 18mbps service.
dynodb
Premium Member
join:2004-04-21
Minneapolis, MN

1 edit

dynodb

Premium Member

Beware

Some of the info in that thread isn't exactly accurate. Grain of salt and all that.

And no, I'm not going to expand on it.

Let's just say the rollout (edit: if it happens) is much more involved than installing a new card in an existing DSLAM, and that it's going to take some time before widespread availability.

A positive step in any case though.
jdjbuffalo
join:2004-01-17
Denver, CO

jdjbuffalo

Member

Finally

It's nice to see Qwest joining us in this decade...

If they want to be competitive then I think they will need to rollout lower pricing by a few dollars to $39.99 and drop the $10 "you don't have the $30+ phone service with us" fee. If they don't want to drop the fee then it should be integrated into the price. So on for their lowest tier it should be around $45.

In Denver, Comcast will soon be deploying their DOCSIS 3 upgrades with the lowest tier being 12/2 and Qwest could compete with their 12/5. However they can only do this if it is $55 but not if it is $62.99 + $15 in taxes.
iansltx
join:2007-02-19
Austin, TX

iansltx

Member

Re: Finally

Not sure about taxes and fees (will have to ask friends who have Qwest internet) but the price difference between dry and "wet" DSL is $5 on the lower tiers. So 12/5 would be $57 and 20/5 would be $70. Close to Comcast's pricing for 12/2 and in between 16/2 and 22/5, respectively. Though, assuming no ATM overhead, I'd take Qwest over Comcast due to the cap. I want my online backup back

danawhitaker
Space...The Final Frontier
Premium Member
join:2002-03-02
Thorndale, ON

danawhitaker to jdjbuffalo

Premium Member

to jdjbuffalo
If only Qwest would stop by my street and boost us out of 1.5 land first.

jadebangle
Premium Member
join:2007-05-22
00000

jadebangle

Premium Member

Re: Finally

said by danawhitaker:

If only Qwest would stop by my street and boost us out of 1.5 land first.
Just drop qwest if you have a better alternative
sadly the state you live in is dominated by qwest lobbyist
faster alternative has been suppressed in your state and many other states so these dominant company can continue to sell us inferior product which cost not much less then faster internet service...

Not everyone in my state or in ca has fios... fios is like the underdog which can compete with inferior dsl and cable internet service

what i and cyberbeing have is considered a luxury and a decade into the future for most who are still stuck on slow internet provider

a luxury that most would still wish they have even 10 years from now

Its half as fast as T3 which cost 20K a month
at 50mbps it would be faster then T3

Metatron2008
You're it
Premium Member
join:2008-09-02
united state

1 recommendation

Metatron2008

Premium Member

Tonight...

Craig Moffet is screaming like a little girl...
blackriders
join:2005-01-16
Bronx, NY

blackriders

Member

Prices and Speed?

Damn, with those prices and speed makes me glad I live in the Bronx. I can choose ool boost/ultra or verzion Fios.

Well once fios gets to my building. Rest of my block is wired alreeady
sludgehound
join:2007-03-12
New York, NY

sludgehound

Member

RR slower than this

Heck on Roadrunner Midtown west side Man'h I'm only gotten
15-18 down & 495 up. So much for cable. But I did get them to lower the package price for a year. Connection finally became more stable.

C_Chipperson
Monster Rain
Premium Member
join:2009-01-17
00000

C_Chipperson

Premium Member

For Real?

I jumped ship from qwest to comcast here in denver going from 7Mb/.7Mb to 16Mb/2Mb (not including powerboost, which has a dramatic effect on normal down/uploads). I may have to jump ship again if i can get the 40/20 or 20/5!
etaadmin
join:2002-01-17
united state

etaadmin

Member

With a decent modem...

Is QW going to use a bridgeable true modem or that 2wire crap that uverse use. Business static IP accounts could be a success if provisioned properly.

»Uverse DSL With Static IPS WORST ISP EVER!

»U-Verse Static IP's: Not Working, Can't figure out problem

»Using a 3rd party VDSL modem

VDSL2+ only (no TV) doesn't sound that bad considering you are very close to the VRAD.

tubbynet
reminds me of the danse russe
MVM
join:2008-01-16
Gilbert, AZ

tubbynet

MVM

price points

Platinum+ 7Mbps/5Mbps - $41.99
Titanium+ 12Mbps/5Mbps -$51.99
Quantum+ 20Mbps/5Mbps - $64.99
Ultimate 40Mbps/5Mbps - $99.99
Ultimate+ 40Mbps/20Mbps - $109.99
aside from the obvious problems that this is *with* a pots line, if you already subscribe to qwest for your pots voice, the price point is about right. all tiers have at least a 5 meg upload, which in the phoenix-metro market stomps on all d3 offerings (until cox lets loose with the 50/5 tier).
if the cost voice pots voice was low enough, i think that i'd consider dropping my cox cable line (premier tier) and going with qwest. i'd much rather have the 7/5 tier over the 15/1.5 that i have now. the only thing that bumps my download speeds is roku - and even that really only pushes it to 10meg at best. with the added upload, my remote access would be greatly improved and if i leave some software behind, i can always grab it. plus with x11 over ssh, i can have access to all of my linux apps. its really a win.
if this becomes a reality in the phoenix markets, cox might have to rethink their game plan a little. too much complacency breeds second place ratings...

q.

Zak_D_H
Premium Member
join:2007-01-04
Salt Lake City, UT

Zak_D_H

Premium Member

Not happy news.

I am still chugging along with 1.5mb cap. I wish Qwest (as well as the other telco's) would worry about upgrading existing infrastructure to support regular ADSL speeds up to 7mb before they start cherry picking markets for VDSL.

cameronsfx
join:2009-01-08
Panama City, FL

cameronsfx

Member

Re: Not happy news.

said by Zak_D_H:

I am still chugging along with 1.5mb cap. I wish Qwest (as well as the other telco's) would worry about upgrading existing infrastructure to support regular ADSL speeds up to 7mb before they start cherry picking markets for VDSL.
Now, if Congress was smart (it isn't), it would make Broadband a "utility" service and spend cash to build a nationwide fiber network. Anyone could use it. No caps. No discrimination.

If it costs $100 billion, that's fine since the productivity gains in the economy could be $100s of billions a year generating far more tax revenues. College costs could be cut 75% by HSI classes. Work-at-home jobs would probably see a 1000% increase making companies more productive since less overhead. It would also save hundreds of billions on oil use since people wouldn't be driving to work anyway. Wouldn't that also help American automakers too? Yep. Don't forget all the jobs needed to build it in the first place. Huge work for Telcos and Cable companies and other contractors.

Yes, you should be able to throw phone and TV over it too.

Now, that's a stimulus package if ever there was one. Just ask S. Korea. They may not use it to the full extent that it could be. Obama's $787 billion stimulus plan so far has been a failure (only 13% will be spent this year).

Transmaster
Don't Blame Me I Voted For Bill and Opus
join:2001-06-20
Cheyenne, WY

Transmaster

Member

Crap and More Crap

Oh wow, higher speeds. I would be happy to at least get the 7mbps I am paying for. The only speed test that tell me this is what I am getting is the Qwest speed test, every speed tool available on this site tells me otherwise. Now I realize there is a lot of variable in these speed tests but you would think over a long period the speed would at least get over 4.5 mbps.
dynodb
Premium Member
join:2004-04-21
Minneapolis, MN

dynodb

Premium Member

Re: Crap and More Crap

A lot of speed tests don't play nice with 7M for some reason. Use the Qwest speed test or a large download from a fast site.
ironrranger
join:2003-02-06
Virginia, MN

ironrranger

Member

Only for Metro areas.

I spoke to a Qwest tech this morning and they have no plans to do vdsl2 network wide. It is only going to be a few metro areas. I'm on the 1.5 speed for life I guess. I think I will go to cable this year for phone and internet. I feel that we get treated as a bunch of idiots that live in the sticks.