dnoyeBFerrous Phallus join:2000-10-09 Southfield, MI |
dnoyeB
Member
2008-Oct-1 8:43 am
Durn UnionsThose unions have to do what they have to in order to increase member value. It would be against the law to do anything else. | |
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| 53059959 (banned)Temp banned from BBR more then anyone join:2002-10-02 PwnZone |
53059959 (banned)
Member
2008-Oct-1 6:01 pm
wrong crowdis it me or is dslreports these days more and more the same bland type of person with the same outlooks and opinions? | |
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| st7860 join:2004-05-13 San Francisco, CA |
to dnoyeB
Re: Durn Unionssaid by dnoyeB:Those unions have to do what they have to in order to increase member value. It would be against the law to do anything else. » www.urbandictionary.com/ ··· rm=unionan association that uses thuggery, hooliganism, bribery and blackmail to get the wage level raised above its true value for lazy workers | |
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NOCManMadMacHatter Premium Member join:2004-09-30 Colorado Springs, CO |
NOCMan
Premium Member
2008-Oct-1 8:48 am
More Like Pay CutI'd reject a 9% over 3 year pay increase as well. It's effectively a pay cut.
If your employer is not beating 5% increase yearly you're not beating inflation. | |
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| n2jtx join:2001-01-13 Glen Head, NY
1 recommendation |
n2jtx
Member
2008-Oct-1 9:16 am
Re: More Like Pay Cutsaid by NOCMan:I'd reject a 9% over 3 year pay increase as well. It's effectively a pay cut. It beats the 0% I have gotten over the last several years. OTOH, it has forced me to be austere and frankly I laugh at a recession since I have been living one for years now. | |
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| Mactronel Camino Real Premium Member join:2001-12-16 PRK
1 recommendation |
to NOCMan
said by NOCMan:I'd reject a 9% over 3 year pay increase as well. It's effectively a pay cut.
If your employer is not beating 5% increase yearly you're not beating inflation. But your employed. The Unions sure have helped Detroit Prosper... | |
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| Robert Premium Member join:2001-08-25 Miami, FL |
to NOCMan
said by NOCMan:I'd reject a 9% over 3 year pay increase as well. It's effectively a pay cut. If your employer is not beating 5% increase yearly you're not beating inflation. Given the current state of the economy, they should be happy to even have a job, and have the prospect of getting a 9% raise over 3 years. | |
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stevephl join:2000-11-27 Colorado Springs, CO
1 recommendation |
Reject UnionsUnions are noncompetitive entities which keep innovation and value down. A major reason for off shoring of our manufacturing base in this country is due in large part to unions a kind to socialism. A lot of people are unemployed in this country and would love a job even if there is no pay raise. Get over it and go back to work or find another field to work in. | |
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fair09
Anon
2008-Oct-1 9:16 am
Re: Reject UnionsThe most respected Fortune 500 companies in the United States are union...tell what value and innovation you speak of? Look to your government for the off shoring and manufacturing problem... | |
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| | FFH5 Premium Member join:2002-03-03 Tavistock NJ |
FFH5
Premium Member
2008-Oct-1 9:18 am
Re: Reject Unionssaid by fair09 :
The most respected Fortune 500 companies in the United States are union... They are? Examples please. | |
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| | | Dogfather Premium Member join:2007-12-26 Laguna Hills, CA 4 edits
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Re: Reject UnionsUh, ExxonMobil who uses IFC and EMGW workers, same with Chevron. General Electric, Valero, ConocoPhillips, Costco, United Technologies, Northrop-Grumman, Verizon, UPS, AT&T, Boeing, Johnson & Johnson, Lockheed, CAT...Google is your friend.
A LOT of the very profitable manufacturers near the top of the Fortune 500 use union labor, especially heavy manufacturing and aerospace. | |
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| | Robert Premium Member join:2001-08-25 Miami, FL 1 edit |
to fair09
said by fair09 :
The most respected Fortune 500 companies in the United States are union...tell what value and innovation you speak of? Look to your government for the off shoring and manufacturing problem... I can only think of a handful of fortune 500 companies that are "most respected", or respected at all. | |
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dllama
Anon
2008-Oct-1 10:44 am
Re: Reject Unionsit less about union pay and more about the 35 percent tax rate here in the usa. it cheaper in a country with 10 tax rates. | |
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| | cline3621Mr. Yuk is MEAN Mr. Yuk is GREEN Premium Member join:2006-06-14 Clarksville, TN |
to fair09
said by fair09 :
The most respected Fortune 500 companies in the United States are union... Really? Did Wal-Mart go union overnight? Last time I checked they were number one in the Fortune 500 for 2008. What about my employer Echostar? Its been a year or two since I've checked, and they were number 270. Were not union either. | |
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| | | Dogfather Premium Member join:2007-12-26 Laguna Hills, CA 4 edits |
Re: Reject UnionsThere are 499 other companies on the list in addition to Wal-Mart. Echostar may not be union but competitors Verizon and AT&T who are both high on the list certainly are.
Wal-mart isn't but competitor Costco (who is also high on the list) is along with a lot of very profitable heavy hitters on the list including big energy (eg Exxon, Valero) and heavy industry companies (eg, Alcoa, Boeing, Caterpillar). | |
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| | | | S_engineer Premium Member join:2007-05-16 Chicago, IL |
Re: Reject UnionsWalmart signed collective bargaining agreements in f***ing China, » www.clb.org.hk/en/node/100286 , hows that for a kick in the teeth? They shouldn't sign if it's not collectively in their best interest. I would hope that people realize the necessity for the collective bargaining process. After all, it has in fact brought you little things like weekends, and benefits, even if your with a non-signatory company! | |
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| | | | | Dogfather Premium Member join:2007-12-26 Laguna Hills, CA 2 edits
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Re: Reject UnionsThings will just get worse here. More and more Americans have a "fuck the other guy" attitude. They're too stupid to realize well paid workers rely less on gov't assistence and their wages get reinvested in their local community. It's their wages that buy other durable goods and buy other services that perhaps the anti-union dopes make.
I used to be anti-union but as our gov't and corporate interests sell out American workers for short term profits we see what the effect is on the economy. There is no steel industry left. There is no textile industry left. For and more technical jobs are outsourced. We're quickly losing our light manufacturing base. Result is more and more people are ending up with low paying Wal-Mart type jobs and unable to sustain substantial economic growth in the US.
Free trade isn't fair trade and massive profits at all costs is not in the best interests of the United States. A protectionist slant and well paid workers are in the best interests of the United States.
IOW, it's well paid workers that buy the goods my company makes which allows me to pay good wages to my workers. And my workers spend that money to buy other goods and services. Put a huge weak link in the chain by decimating entire sectors of good paying jobs because greedy corporations want to pay slave wages in Asia or Mexico and the economy breaks down.
Meanwhile the idiots will blame the Union workers for the exodus instead of short sighted corporate greed. | |
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| | | | | | pnh102Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty Premium Member join:2002-05-02 Mount Airy, MD |
pnh102
Premium Member
2008-Oct-2 6:29 am
Re: Reject Unionssaid by Dogfather:More and more Americans have a "fuck the other guy" attitude. To me at least, a lot of unions, especially ones which represent government workers, have such an attitude. They simply don't care that their radically high benefit increases will break the back of the taxpayer. When I lived near Philadelphia I saw how the price of union-provided government services in the city kept going up and up and up. The resulting tax hikes simply caused more taxpayers to flee. The strikes didn't help matters much either, especially when taxpayers were still forced to pay taxes on wages earned during a government workers' strike, even though the taxpayers were not getting the services for which their taxes paid. said by Dogfather:They're too stupid to realize well paid workers rely less on gov't assistence and their wages get reinvested in their local community. Kinda like Detroit? » www.google.com/search?hl ··· +bailoutI suppose Detroit isn't the best of examples here because the Big 3 are so pathetically mismanaged (why would any company pay executives who don't deliver a profit?) that even if they had no issues with their unionized workforce, they would still be on the brink of going under. I agree with you that a lack of corporate loyalty to the USA is a problem. But I don't think unions are the primary, sole cause of it, mainly because the percentage of unionized workers in the private sector is low. The USA has the highest (or one of the highest, I don't remember) corporate tax rates in the world. We also impose ludicrous taxes on US citizens who work abroad. We also have a lot of extraneous business regulation that other countries, including ones to which many white collar jobs are offshored, simply do not bother with. We live in a day and age of unprecedented corporate mobility. The costs for a business to move abroad and to do business from abroad have plummeted to the point where countries have to compete with one another to lure employers to do business, much like states in the USA have been doing for years. Some states and cities actively encourage illegal aliens to come to this country and depress wages and increase local government costs as a result. All of these factors contribute to a stagnant or declining standard of living for the "average" worker in the USA. Government needs to get with the program and enact policies that will make the USA more competitive. Sadly, I don't see either major presidential candidate doing this. | |
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| | | | | | | Dogfather Premium Member join:2007-12-26 Laguna Hills, CA 1 edit |
Re: Reject UnionsThat's cause the Big 3 ABANDONED Detroit to build plants in Mexico where they can take advantage of near slave labor or move to asian components for the same reason. Don't blame Unions for NAFTA. Don't blame Unions for our corporate tax code. Don't blame Unions for federal immigration policy.
Greedy corporations pushed for NAFTA. They push for illegal immigration that drives down wages, decimates our infrastructure and bankrupts local gov't.
If you were in a sector of the economy decimated by corporate greed and gov't corruption like I am you would be singing a different tune. | |
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Re: Reject Unionssaid by Dogfather:That's cause the Big 3 ABANDONED Detroit to build plants in Mexico where they can take advantage of near slave labor or move to asian components for the same reason. Don't blame Unions for NAFTA. Don't blame Unions for our corporate tax code. Don't blame Unions for federal immigration policy. [/BQUOTE History shows that countries that lack a strong industrial base cannot retain superpower status. Outsourcing most our industrial base has allot to do with the the economic crisis in the US. Its the reason the economy was taking a dive back in 01 and why the pres and the federal reserve looked at loosening the money supply for sub prime loans to boost the economy.. since they had already muffed up the traditional industrial sector. Now its all catching up with huge trade deficits and national debt. All of this was started with Reagan with the deregulation of government. I can't believe for one second how some people can still support these failed policies.. Unless of course you are in that magic top 2% of income earners who have for the most part been hugely represented by the federal government. Most others still hanging on to the old trickle down theory will probably change their tune when they too, become impacted. For whatever reason, most people never change until they are impacted, even though we have choice. As for NAFTA, it was such a lie. As many may recall, Clinton and many of the supporters of NAFTA said it would increase our trade from the US to Mexico. But in reality, it inversely impacted the US exponentially for goods traveling from Mexico to the US. The lobbyist lied, greedy corporations lied and Americans lost their jobs. Mostly from payoffs in Washington no doubt from corporate lobbying. People criticize Carter for the inflation of the seventies. And that only happened because of the guns and butter policy of Johnson and the vietnam war. That was the Iraq war back then that was paid for with debt.. and happened to land on Carters term. But the US was the largest creditor nation in those days with a huge industrial base and strong middle class. He also had a viable energy policy that if had gone to term, would have put us in a much better position energy wise today. He was the last President to guard the regulations of FDR to protect the economy from the likes of another great depression. Personally, I am rather pessimistic these days. Too many people are not waking up.. Serious impact will result. | |
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| | | | | | | | | Dogfather Premium Member join:2007-12-26 Laguna Hills, CA |
Re: Reject UnionsTrickle down works fine when you aren't introducing the incentive to invest that wealth in overseas factories instead of US factories. The proof is the growth we see in China where capital investment is turning China into a superpower. | |
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| | | | | | | | pnh102Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty Premium Member join:2002-05-02 Mount Airy, MD |
to Dogfather
said by Dogfather:That's cause the Big 3 ABANDONED Detroit to build plants in Mexico where they can take advantage of near slave labor or move to asian components for the same reason. It's a good thing then that Honda, Toyota, Hyundai and Mercedes, among others, have set up shop here then. Michigan though has its own problems. It has some of the highest state taxes in the country. But as for assigning blame, it is no secret that the Big 3, in terms of car quality, have consistently been at the bottom especially when compared to US-made "foreign" cars. The Big 3 need to get their act together and do something to not only improve quality, but to also improve the perception of quality amongst everyone else. said by Dogfather:If you were in a sector of the economy decimated by corporate greed and gov't corruption like I am you would be singing a different tune. I work in IT. I've seen my fair share of job losses and offshoring too. | |
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| | | | | | | | | Dogfather Premium Member join:2007-12-26 Laguna Hills, CA 1 edit |
Re: Reject UnionsOnly for some of their cars and even then only for final assembly. Even with a few engine plants here, Toyota still has less than 50% domestic content. Honda is under 60% and Nissan 45%. This compared to GM and Ford at over 70%, despite exporting these jobs. If GM and Ford with so much out of country work is over 70% you can imagine really how little Honda and others do here. And in terms of quality, I don't know what index you're reading. You will see forgeign makes at the top and bottom and domestic makes at the top and bottom. The US quality is crap argument is so 80's. For more than a decade, UAW quality has matched or beat their Japanese counterparts. | |
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| | | | | | | | | pnh102Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty Premium Member join:2002-05-02 Mount Airy, MD |
pnh102
Premium Member
2008-Oct-2 9:52 am
Re: Reject UnionsMost any car has great initial quality. However, the true measure of any car's quality is its long-term reliability. The right question to ask here is not how good a car is when it rolls off the assembly line, but how much money has had to be put in a car that is 10 years (or more) old? Foreign makes, even when built in the USA, continually pwn Detroit in this regard.
I shouldn't have to be on a first-name basis with my mechanic to keep my car running. That's why I own 2 Hondas, both made in Ohio. | |
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| | | | | | | | | Dogfather Premium Member join:2007-12-26 Laguna Hills, CA 4 edits |
Re: Reject UnionsWrong, not most every car has great initial quality. Honda's Acura nameplate was below average in initial quality (and that's with no "all-new" models that year) as was Toyota's Scion (which was particularly bad). I've added the J.D. Power dependability study and while Honda does well, Mercury does better. Acura did well, now defunct Oldsmobile did better. Even Lexus couldn't best mid-priced Buick in dependability.
It just again, shows that the "American cars suck" mentality is unjustified and has been so for more than a decade.
And Honda is the quality exeption. Most foreign makes did crap in long term dependability. Scion was worse than average, Nissan did horribly, Mazda did horribly, VW, Audi, did horribly. In fact the bottom of the list is dominated by foreign nameplates. As we see US climb in initial quality we'll see with time them climb even higher in long term dependability. | |
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| | | | | | | | | pnh102Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty Premium Member join:2002-05-02 Mount Airy, MD |
pnh102
Premium Member
2008-Oct-2 10:10 am
Re: Reject Unionssaid by Dogfather:I've added the J.D. Power dependability study and while Honda does well, Mercury does better. Acura did well, now defunct Oldsmobile did better. Even Lexus couldn't best mid-priced Buick in dependability. I can't agree with anything that J.D. Power says because my experiences are almost always the opposite of their reporting. We had an Olds (and other GMs) prior to getting Hondas and the GM makes got consistently worse over the years (from 1972 to 2007). This was a fair number of cars. said by Dogfather:It just again, shows that the "American cars suck" mentality is unjustified and has been so for more than a decade. But why did that mentality take root to begin with? There's a reason why most stereotypes exist. | |
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| | | | | | | | | Dogfather Premium Member join:2007-12-26 Laguna Hills, CA 3 edits |
Re: Reject UnionsI know my 2001 Silverado is bullet proof while I have lots of minor problems with my 04 Acura TL (power window problem, broken button cover, burnt out dash bulbs early etc). You can't make market assumptions based on your small sample.
That mentality of "American cars suck" took root in the 80's because at the time it was true, particularly with Chrysler and nightmares like GM 4-6-8. Starting in the early 90's big changes to the big 3 quality system took root. I know because I'm a 3rd tier supplier to the big 3 and am well aware of massive changes, specially QS9001 which led to drastic quality improvements, not only in final assembly but in contracted components.
But the John Q Public doesn't know this because they're stuck with the stereotype. Look, it took "Made in Japan" far more than a decade to lose it's negative stereotype and American auto manufacturers face the same uphill battle. But they won't know until they go see great new cars like the Milan and Malibu along with great features like Sync. | |
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| mrks join:2005-07-12 Lowell, MA |
to stevephl
So your telling me only union manufacturing left this country, not manufacturing all together, because unions are akin to socialism. Oh by the way were did it go? Ah that's right China, known espicially for their free enterprise and democratic principles. Thanks for setting me straight. | |
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pnh102Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty Premium Member join:2002-05-02 Mount Airy, MD 1 edit
1 recommendation |
pnh102
Premium Member
2008-Oct-1 9:01 am
Nice Pay CutConsidering how quickly Qwest is going down the drain, these unions will be hopefully be taking a 100% pay cut soon enough. | |
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| Done_PostingShoot to kill Premium Member join:2003-08-22 Toledo, OH |
Re: Nice Pay Cutsaid by pnh102:Considering how quickly Qwest is going down the drain, these unions will be hopefully be taking a 100% pay cut soon enough. No kidding. Enjoy the bread lines, guys! - Tate | |
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| | Cod2 join:2000-07-05 Kernersville, NC |
Cod2
Member
2008-Oct-1 1:49 pm
Re: Nice Pay Cutsaid by Done_Posting:said by pnh102:Considering how quickly Qwest is going down the drain, these unions will be hopefully be taking a 100% pay cut soon enough. No kidding. Enjoy the bread lines, guys! - Tate Classy fellas, classy- | |
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| Dogfather Premium Member join:2007-12-26 Laguna Hills, CA |
to pnh102
"Hopefully". Wishing that the company goes under and the workers lose their jobs? Nice. | |
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| | pnh102Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty Premium Member join:2002-05-02 Mount Airy, MD |
pnh102
Premium Member
2008-Oct-1 2:58 pm
Re: Nice Pay Cutsaid by Dogfather:"Hopefully". Wishing that the company goes under and the workers lose their jobs? Nice. I did not wish for the company to go under. This does not change the fact that Qwest as a company does not have a real future as long as it continues to pursue the same business plan that it pursues today. As for the workers, it is probably wiser to choose a different battle to pick. | |
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| kellenw join:2003-11-20 Kansas City, MO |
to pnh102
said by pnh102:Considering how quickly Qwest is going down the drain, these unions will be hopefully be taking a 100% pay cut soon enough. As a Q stockholder (tiny position of 450 shares that these days is more or less junk status), I fear you are correct. I can't believe a union can possibly believe they are acting in the best interests of their members by trying to bully an UNPROFITABLE company into increasing pay and benefits when they quite literally DON'T HAVE IT TO GIVE. hehehehehehe | |
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Good for the Workers!Glad to see the workers standing up to the company! We give 8 hours a day 40 hours a week of our lives to these companies. They can afford to pay our healthcare and give us decent wages! They make billions of dollars a years off of the workers. They pay their workers as little as possible, while their ceos make millions per year for doing nothing except make descisions....
For all of you Union haters, when is the last time you spoke with the CEO of the company? Why do you stick up for the company and not the worker your actually dealing with? Do you honestly think the company cares about you? All they want is your money. Its the workers that try to find grey areas that try to keep you happy... | |
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Trickle Down DOES NOT WORKIt amazes me how some people are still buying into the old trickle down theory that Reagan started in 1980. Yes the principle of deregulation of government in favor of privatization of the private sector. This depended on the principles that those on the top of the food chain would do the right thing and reinvest profits into the economy and the the middle class would benefit from the supply side economics. Yes this is the line we have been propagandized with for almost 30 years. Even Clinton was guilty of globalization policies. Now what we have is basically the same thing we had in the 1920's where an elite few control everything. The top two percent richest individuals in the US control over 50 percent of all the assets. And allot of that is being invested overseas hugely. The crap is hitting the walls on all sides and still people bad mouth unions etc.. What do you want? The US to go to the likes of Mexico where that top two percent controls 85 percent of the assets?
After the depression the new deal of FDR created the unions and regulations.. like those for banking, SEC etc... for a good reason.. Now speed forward to 2001 and Greenspan and the right decided that those rules back in the thirties don't hold up... that somehow its different now then it was in 1929. And now they want 700 billion from the middle class to bail their sorry a%%!! out. And for the last time forget about free markets/open trade.. Its not. Period. For over 200 years the US had tariffs and laws to protect our local markets.. like everyone else and like most countries still do. How bad does it have to get for some people to understand that our policies favoring corporate privatizations/globalization/national debt have to get? Do we have to raise the debt to 20 trillion and collapse the dollar to nothing? Do we have to recreate 1929 again? | |
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| JRW2R.I.P. Mom, Brian, Gary, Ziggy, Max. Premium Member join:2004-12-20 La La Land 1 edit
1 recommendation |
JRW2
Premium Member
2008-Oct-1 12:25 pm
Re: Trickle Down DOES NOT WORKYEAH!! Someone who has NOT drunk the corporate Kool-Aid. All you "Union Haters" will be screaming when you too are unemployed, like you want all the Union workers to be, forgetting that Unions in this country are the reason you enjoy the benefits you have. I'm not about to post all the facts here, again, you can Google them too. A little research on labor rights in this country and labor history will be QUITE eye opening for you... | |
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Unions are worthlessAll they do is jack up the prices for EVERYTHING. People should be paid a fair market value for what the contribute to the company. Turning bolts, hanging wires, etc are not SKILLED jobs. If you go on strike, prepare for what you will recieve. NO JOB. BYE BYE. And FYI, health care is INSURANCE, you pay coverage, its not free. Quit complaining. | |
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