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Rogers Denies Blame For TekSavvy Outage Issues
by Karl Bode 02:24PM Monday Sep 16 2013
As I noted last week, indie Canadian ISP TekSavvy has been struggling with prolonged disconnections for many of their users, something the company says is because of changes at Canadian incumbent Rogers. To hear TekSavvy tell it, the company suddenly and inexplicably found their install and repair trouble tickets being ignored by Rogers; months of this contributing to a backlog of support issues that have caused massive headaches for the company and customers alike.

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I asked Rogers for comment, and the company denies doing anything to intentionally sabotage TekSavvy's business. They also take issue with the number of impacted customers.

"Over the past several weeks we have seen an increase in the volume of issues and have increased our resources to resolve any outstanding issues as soon as possible," Rogers spokesperson Mary Pretotto confirms. "Although it has been suggested that there were 2,000 customers out of service, that figure is not correct and does not correspond to information we received directly from TekSavvy," she notes.

While TekSavvy CEO Marc Gaudrault stated that unspecified Rogers changes were to blame for the hiccups, Rogers also denies that anything has changed.

"There have been no changes in processes with TekSavvy or in the network relationship," the company tells me. "All network improvements and enhancements have been part of normal operations."

In fact, the Rogers response to my inquiry lays most of the blame for the problems at TekSavvy's feet, claiming that a combination of "inaccurate" forecast data provided by TekSavvy and the everyday lag created by dealing with a third party provider are responsible.

"All third-party internet service providers submit a forecast to ensure Rogers allocates resources to meet projected demand," said Pretotto. "Unfortunately TekSavvy provided an inaccurate forecast that significantly underestimated their volume of traffic and overwhelmed the resources that Rogers has dedicated for third party internet providers."

As we saw in great detail with the CLEC/ILEC battles of old here in the States, Rogers has a vested interest in things not going particularly smoothly for a competitor. As such, it will be up to the Canadian regulators the CRTC to sort through the truth and determine if any foul play was involved.

Meanwhile, TekSavvy CEO Marc Gaudrault has posted a new blog entry noting that things have improved slightly, but that the company is still working with lawyers and the CRTC to get things back to normal.

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nekkidtruth
YISMM
Premium
join:2002-05-20
London, ON
kudos:2

Of course Rogers will deny any wrong doing...

Who is surprised with this response from Rogers? I'd like to say I hope the CRTC deals with this swiftly and heavy handed, but we all know that won't happen.
--
Weeeeeee
elefante72

join:2010-12-03
East Amherst, NY

Both are to blame

Listen, this is a combination of the old skool dragging their feet and techs/etc (union no less) doing their thing which is to mean up to government standards (which is D grade), AND TekSavvy being green by having customer service growing pains and a painful move to D3/ATPIA which IMHO they should have ramped up in more structured fashion. In fact my parents are still on old TPIA speeds, however they are now showing up under a slower ATPIA tier. Moving to D3 requires better signals and multiple channels, and guess what marginal signals are going to crap out when upgraded...

Add that and a dose of flooding and you have a sh**storm.

There is all reason to believe that Rogers process and TPIA in general sucks, as anything the government touches will have that glow, BUT Teksavvy has stumbled on their own two feet also....

Also, if you look at the other Rogers/TPIA forums, NONE are having the issues at the level as TekSavvy so logically concluding the blame is on both parties. Simple s**t like not having enough DHCP addresses at the CMTS is pure crap. The TS/Bell (DSL) seems to be better, so I think that both are fueling the fire and plain and simple is shows that Bell is a better operator than Rogers because they have been down the regulation road before... The D3 migration in general seems to be much worse than in the states...Not sure why but when TWC upgraded in my rents area, no issues and they are now running under Earthlink (quasi-TPIA).
resa1983
Premium
join:2008-03-10
North York, ON
kudos:10

Re: Both are to blame

The problem at Rogers isn't the techs - they have been able to have a tech roll out to fix a Rogers customers' TV in under 4 hrs. The problem is the people at Rogers answering the tickets - or not answering them as the case seems to be.

Rogers doesn't inform TPIA prior to a node split, or when doing the upstream channel changes that they're doing currently (16QAM->64QAM) on a node, and when these changes are made, DHCP issues tend to occur. Because Rogers doesn't inform TPIA beforehand, and doesn't ask for additional IPs beforehand, TPIA experiences DHCP issues.

Hell, Rogers is even denying they're doing the change from 16QAM->64QAM, and bringing it from 4 upstream channels bonded, to only 3 - 2x64 & 1 16/64. Meanwhile, TPIA customers can see this quite clearly in their modem signals page. Its pretty ridiculous because Rogers' spokesmen are being fed lines of bull and spreading it to the media.

But hey, this is Rogers.. Providing bull to media is NORMAL. Remember the throttling issue - "Oh, no. We're not doing this." "Oh wait, yes we are, but it's not affecting anything else." "Oh, the CRTC's own tests says it is affecting other things. We'll stop throttling."
--
Battle.net Tech Support MVP
elefante72

join:2010-12-03
East Amherst, NY

Re: Both are to blame

I digress. The first time Rogers came out, they spliced my parents cable with the neighbors, and ignored the new line that was run two months prior when I went ballistic on the 1982 cable that was there and dropping whenever rain hit ground.

So a week later they come out, and hook up the original "new" cable and they missed the window.

So I'm not sure how that can be considered good practice or even right, but two calls and a lot of wasted time here.

I had a few PMs on DHCP and the issue (explained to me) was that Rogers assigns DHCP centrally, and TPIA through blocks at each CMTS. I'm not sure how fanning out to nodes would cause DHCP issues, but certainly changing modulation/bonding can cause signal issues. Apparently TS said they had no way of knowing they were running out of addresses, and it would take Rogers days to download the new profile to the CMTS and the feedback mechanism was people getting locked out of a new lease. That seems plausible, but if that is the case that is entirely dysfunctional...

So I'm assuming that ATPIA (I don't know) has say TekSavvy switches (10GB or the like) in the headend and that plugs into the CMTS or hub and then off to their network carrier to provide transit? I never saw how this is done, but would be interesting to know how they implemented this. So this means the CMTS still provides network services (DHCP/Docsis), just routes the assigned IP when seen at the CMTS to the Teksavvy "aggregated" switch pair (or more).
madman280

join:2009-07-05
Chatham, ON
said by elefante72:



BUT Teksavvy has stumbled on their own two feet also....
Also, if you look at the other Rogers/TPIA forums, NONE are having the issues at the level as TekSavvy so logically concluding the blame is on both parties. Simple s**t like not having enough DHCP addresses at the CMTS is pure crap. ...

Do you have proof of this?
Percentage wise Teksavvy customers tend to be more vocal and greater in shear numbers compared to other TIPIA companies.

I heard a completely different story related to the not enough IP addressed were given to Rogers by Teksavvy. . I understand Teksavvy gave Rogers huge blocks of IP addresses and Rogers configured them wrong on the individual POI's leaving huge blocks unassigned.

How did Teksavvy stumble in any way?
elefante72

join:2010-12-03
East Amherst, NY

Re: Both are to blame

I don't work for TS so I don't have proof, but from forum replies. In fact everything that is said may be pure s**t.

In any case just roll over to the forums and see how they stumble on customer service every day. As a vast majority of their value add is customer service (along w/ price) their growing pains is causing a lot of people to leave or take issue. It seems Marc has to be the personal savior of his less than perfect minions.

I personally think they give too much information, and the irritants take that to the bank and turn the board into a flame-fest. It only takes 4-5 trolls to turn the tide. A downside to social networks if not played correctly.

TS is by no means perfect angels, but as for my parents house, no problems with their line at all, which should be normal. So I don't dislike them, in fact they are a vendor in the family but I'm not going to sit here and spit roses, because it's not all flowers.

Guspaz
Guspaz
Premium,MVM
join:2001-11-05
Montreal, QC
kudos:23

2 edits
said by elefante72:

Also, if you look at the other Rogers/TPIA forums, NONE are having the issues at the level as TekSavvy so logically concluding the blame is on both parties.

TekSavvy is by far the biggest TPIA in Canada. If Rogers was going to target one company to kill off, it'd be the biggest one. Having the highest volume would also cause the biggest impact on Rogers' intentionally understaffed TPIA department.

Rogers has a history of doing this to IISPs. They used to take months to install additional GigE lines to POIs, and when they first started doing TPIA, they only assigned a single person to respond to all TPIA requests (and only via e-mail), which caused massive delays.
--
Latest version of CapSavvy systray usage checker: »CapSavvy v4.2 released!

battleop

join:2005-09-28
00000

Re: Both are to blame

I am sure this isn't an official Roger tactic but I am sure that Rogers management doesn't give a shit and will not do anything to correct it.
--
I do not, have not, and will not work for AT&T/Comcast/Verizon/Charter or similar sized company.

El Quintron
Resident Mouth Breather
Premium
join:2008-04-28
Etobicoke, ON
kudos:4
Reviews:
·TekSavvy Cable
·TekSavvy DSL
said by elefante72:

Listen, this is a combination of the old skool dragging their feet and techs/etc (union no less)

Please provide proof that Rogers employees are unionized.

I haven't found any real proof that Rogers is unionized on any large scale except for a single sub-contractor in the 519 area code, which could not produce the large scale delays Teksavvy is experiencing.
--
Support Bacteria -- It's the Only Culture Some People Have
briansgs2

join:2013-04-25

This reminds me of..

This reminds me of the relationship Sprint had with third party ISP's like North Point. If a customer had a line issue, Sprint (the line owner at the time) would only give the tech 15 minutes to fix it and would simply walk off the job if it couldn’t be completed in that time frame. They hated the competition and did everything in their power to make it fail.

battleop

join:2005-09-28
00000

Re: This reminds me of..

BellSouth did similar things. They would go out fix the issue and tell the customer it was an ISP issue and the only real way to fix it was to switch to BellSouth.net DSL. It happened enough times that we had to send someone out to meet the tech to put a stop to it every time there was a truck roll.
--
I do not, have not, and will not work for AT&T/Comcast/Verizon/Charter or similar sized company.

AkFubar
Admittedly, A Teksavvy Fan

join:2005-02-28
Toronto CAN.

1 recommendation

.

Typical Rogers response. Sorry but I believe Teksavvy on this. The ugly truth will come out when the CRTC deals transparently with this mess.
--
BHell... A Public Futility. When life throws you lemons, make lemonade.

WHT

join:2010-03-26
Rosston, TX
kudos:5

"Normal Operations"

"All network improvements and enhancements have been part of normal operations [fixed - that include screwing over the competition]."

lleader

join:2011-01-01
Mississauga, ON

.

"... overwhelmed the resources that Rogers has dedicated for third party internet providers."

There's the problem right there. There should be no separate "resources" for third part internet providers - all actions should draw from the same pool in chronological order.
TBBroadband

join:2012-10-26
Fremont, OH

Re: .

And you want those same orders to go through the same order desk? The same repair desk? And you want TK to have to deal with the actual CSRs if they need to call someone??? Be careful what you wish for- Rogers may take you up on your idea.
The Mongoose

join:2010-01-05
Toronto, ON
Reviews:
·TekSavvy Cable

Rogers lies constantly about virtually everything.

I love that Rogers lies about things that they don't even need to lie about. It's just second nature to them.

No changes? Right, because clearly they haven't been moving every CMTS from 4 channels of upstream to 3 (one 2.5 MSym and two 5 MSym channels). Oh no, wait they've done that everywhere. But why say "we've been making some changes which impact everyone including our customers" when you can just flat-out lie about it. Even when you get caught in the lie, nothing will ever happen.

It just makes it that much more obvious how easy it is for them to lie about ignoring the tickets, which is considerably easier to conceal.

Teddy Boom
k kudos Received
Premium
join:2007-01-29
Toronto, ON
kudos:20

2 edits

No lies, just no truth

This isn't about lies. Everything in all the statements by all the parties involved is true. That doesn't do anybody any good though.

For example:
"There have been no changes in processes with TekSavvy or in the network relationship," the company tells me. "All network improvements and enhancements have been part of normal operations."
Obviously correct. Network upgrades are normal operations. Normal operations that cause severe disruptions to the service of TPIA customers because Rogers manages resources (IP addresses in this case) in an absurdly error prone way.
--
electronicsguru.ca
vincom

join:2009-03-06
Bolton, ON
kudos:1

Re: No lies, just no truth



yes, nothing has changed in their operations, so they admitted that they're inept at handling their operations especially concerning tpia's

KPaul

join:2007-02-08

Sure rogers, you're innocent...

10 DAYS I've been waiting for rogers to tell TSI what profile I am on... 10 DAMN DAYS!

How hard can that be?
TBBroadband

join:2012-10-26
Fremont, OH

Re: Sure rogers, you're innocent...

shouldn't your ISP already know this since they're the one billing you for the service?

KPaul

join:2007-02-08

Re: Sure rogers, you're innocent...

You would think so. But since ATPIA I have never received full speed, as such I began to wonder if rogers put me on a wrong profile.
yyzlhr

join:2012-09-03
Scarborough, ON
kudos:4
This is the problem. The incumbent is responsible for provisioning and the ISP has no access to the systems the incumbents use for provisioning. Therefore a ticket needs to be launched to the incumbent and the incumbent is allowed to take as long as they want to respond as the incumbents have no SLA with the third party internet providers who lease the last mile.
TBBroadband

join:2012-10-26
Fremont, OH
Reviews:
·AT&T U-Verse
·MegaPath

Re: Sure rogers, you're innocent...

This is the same way it operates in the US where MSOs are allowing line share without the gov't sticking their nose into their business.

And I would blame TK for not fighting for an SLA- or launching the services, before an SLA could be reached. Even on our resold business services for cable; we don't have an SLA on when the MSO replies back, but we still use a ticket system.
yyzlhr

join:2012-09-03
Scarborough, ON
kudos:4

Re: Sure rogers, you're innocent...

They do want an SLA, but there is nothing requiring Rogers to provide one so they're not going to. Teksavvy either uses Rogers without an SLA or they just close up shop all together.

HiVolt
Premium
join:2000-12-28
Toronto, ON
kudos:21

Lag this!

quote:
the everyday lag created by dealing with a third party provider
Haha, they talk of lag? whats with the stupid 48hour response times to any tickets? That's lag!
--

tedrampart

join:2011-12-13
London, ON

not buying it, sorry...

sorry roger's.. I'm not believing any of your statement!

How could anyone really take what they say for granted when you look at how dishonest of a company they are for starters...

Bottom line in my mind is saying loud and clear, they don't want competition in Canada AT ALL, and have shown both through actions and statements (the newest anti-competition sob story BS ad campaign about verizon's market entrance comes to mind) throughout the years..

so who to believe..? the guys fighting for open access in canada, or the ones constantly arguing against it.. the ones who have been completely transparent and engaging in dialog with their customers, or the ones who jack prices and won't explain why.. the ones offering more for less, or the ones who want to offer you less for more (UBB, lowered monthly bandwidth).. I could go..
MaynardKrebs
Heave Steve, for the good of the country
Premium
join:2009-06-17
kudos:4

Call Rogers help & identify yourself as a TSI customer

.....looking for assistance and record the call. Then post the call recording to Youtube.
yyzlhr

join:2012-09-03
Scarborough, ON
kudos:4

Re: Call Rogers help & identify yourself as a TSI customer

What exactly would that achieve? They'll just tell you to contact your actual ISP, which is the standard operating procedure.

Skeptic

@primus.ca

Rogers Denies Blame For TekSavvy Outage Issues

"...I asked Rogers for comment, and the company denies doing anything to intentionally sabotage TekSavvy's business..."

After parsing that, it occurs to me that I had not considered the possibility of *unintentional* sabotage.

Of course, when dealing with governments and cartels, I tend not to believe anything until it has been officially denied.
deviantint

join:2008-06-18

Can't just be an issue of forecasting...

I switched to TekSavvy cable in the middle of June, and had pretty decent service (though a continuing issue with slow speeds in the evenings). However, I've been *completely* without service for over two weeks now. Most of that time was spent with no response at all from Rogers with TekSavvy doing multiple escalations. If it was truly an issue of capacity, it's much more likely it'd affect new installs and service changes, and not existing connections.

Telecom policy is so brutal in Canada. No matter what I do, my money is somehow going to Bell, or Rogers. The best I can do is minimize it
Matt7

join:2001-01-02
Columbus, OH
Reviews:
·AT&T U-Verse
·Insight Communic..

TekSavvy could just build their own plant.

Maybe TekSavvy should install their own lines and their own CMTS's and head ends and back bones and have their own service... Seems like this complaint is a little one sided.. Let's blame Roger's on everything when really we are too cheap to install our own infrastructure so we lease from Roger's.
yyzlhr

join:2012-09-03
Scarborough, ON
kudos:4

Re: TekSavvy could just build their own plant.

Teksavvy doesn't have the money to overbuild, and Rogers can crush any overbuilding attempts by engaging in a price war.

Mashiki
Balking The Enemy's Plans

join:2002-02-04
Woodstock, ON
kudos:1
It's technically not allowed at the moment for them to build their own plants like that.
Cloneman

join:2002-08-29
Montreal
kudos:3

Weak

Pretty weak PR on the part of Rogers. They could have at least taken part of the blame.

Is anyone supposed to buy that teksavvy is 100% at fault? Ridiculous.