Satellite TV Sees First Quarterly Subscriber Loss EverDish loses 25,000 TV customers to economy, competition 12:14PM Monday Aug 04 2008 by Karl Bodetags: satellite · competition · business · Dish NetworkLast quarter, Dish network added 170,000 new satellite subscribers. This quarter? Not so much. According to the company's latest earnings report, the satellite company lost 25,000 video customers, leaving them with 13.79 million subscribers total. It's notable because this is the first time a U.S. satellite TV operator has ever posted a quarterly subscriber loss. According to an SEC filing by Dish, the losses were caused by "weak economic conditions, aggressive promotional offerings by our competition" and HD competition by rivals. Related:- AT&T Plans To Buy Echostar
- WSJ Downplays AT&T, Echostar Deal
- Dish To Launch Three New Satellites
- Troubled Satellite Launch Impacts Dish Network HD Plans
- Analysts Say TiVo Battle Puts Dish in a Bad Position
- Dish Discussing Merger With DirecTV
- Dish First To Be All MPEG-4
- AT&T Partners with DirecTV
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 Jonbo298
join:2004-01-12 Council Bluffs, IA | Weak economy and... Programming that is not worth the cost anymore. I dropped cable months ago (not totally relevant to dish but programming is similar) and I'm honestly not missing much of anything when I can view it online when I feel like it. | |
|  |  |  |  |  EPS
join:2008-02-13 Hingham, MA | Re: Weak economy and... You don't need cable or satellite to watch FOX, though... (well, I suppose if you get bad reception, which is an especially large problem with FOX as it has more UHF affiliates than the other major networks) | |
|  |  |  |   en102 Canadian, eh?
join:2001-01-26 Valencia, CA | Re: Weak economy and... yup - I get them all on digital OTA I just cancelled DirecTv 2 weeks ago, and haven't looked back. Service was great, but it was just too pricey. -- Canada = Hollywood North | |
|  |  |   morbo Complete Your Transaction
join:2002-01-22 00000 clubs: | some simpsons on hulu.com | |
|  |  |  wilburyan
join:2002-08-01 | ... I download seasons of south park... that are of a quality as good as standard TV... i'm sure simpsons would be just as easy. | |
|  |  pcme2000
join:2008-01-17 Bangor, ME | Just a question when you internet provider caps your bandwidth usage are you going to pay the high price for the extra bandwidth usage. Or decide that it was better to stay with tv viewing? | |
|  |  |  Jonbo298
join:2004-01-12 Council Bluffs, IA
edit: August 4th, @03:39PM
| Re: Weak economy and... said by supergirl :said by Jonbo298 :Programming that is not worth the cost anymore. I dropped cable months ago (not totally relevant to dish but programming is similar) and I'm honestly not missing much of anything when I can view it online when I feel like it. You can't tell me you ain't missing the Simpsons! I can watch it OTA on Fox everyday here (they do a 2 hour block of Family Guy and Simpsons from 5pm-7pm alternating shows). I also have a TV that has the digital tuner built in so all I needed was a basic antenna and I get digital OTA (though Fox and CW have been farking up the digital signal recently but analog works reasonable enough for now)
said by pcme2000 :Just a question when you internet provider caps your bandwidth usage are you going to pay the high price for the extra bandwidth usage. Or decide that it was better to stay with tv viewing? I said when I feel like it which isn't often. Cox has made no mention of putting on harsh caps. If they decide to, then I eliminate any TV show viewing and let the economy get worse then it already has been. I don't care about TV shows as much as I used to. I've been trying to fix my life, and the first steps were limiting TV usage and internet usage.
Limiting internet usage meant canceling my MMO subscription (not WoW), and how much I use it. What have I gained (well..lost actually ) from fixing my becoming old addictions? 45lbs lost in about 6 months from not sitting around all the time and actually making something of my life and fixing my mistakes. Still have another 30-40 to go, but its better then what I used to be so far. | |
|  |  |   Skeedatl Ah, push it - push it real good Premium join:2007-12-26 The Cloud | They didn't keep prices down After a long history of fighting the channel extortionists Charlie seems to give in often as of late, passing on increases to customers. The result is higher prices and fewer customers. | |
|  |  jmallory
join:2005-11-02 Clawson, MI
| Re: They didn't keep prices down said by Skeedatl :After a long history of fighting the channel extortionists Charlie seems to give in often as of late, passing on increases to customers. The result is higher prices and fewer customers. That's because as much as you may hate ESPN, FSN, etc ... you simply cannot offer a Pay-TV service without them. Plus, I don't how much of Charley "fighting" them was actually "fighting" ... when you have good growth you can absorb a lot of the increases...but new sub growth has been slowing for awhile now and those increases now have to be passed on to customers. | |
|  |  |   Skeedatl Ah, push it - push it real good Premium join:2007-12-26 The Cloud | Re: They didn't keep prices down Sports should be on its own tier. | |
|  |  |  |  jmallory
join:2005-11-02 Clawson, MI
| Re: They didn't keep prices down said by Skeedatl :Sports should be on its own tier. Yes and we can have that argument for the next week as well, but the current market reality is that that the overwhelming majority of your prospective customers expect ESPN, ESPN2, and their local RSNs in the basic package. Until something changes in the market such as regulatory requirements..you have to offer it or your service isn't competitive. | |
|  |  |  |  |   Skeedatl Ah, push it - push it real good Premium join:2007-12-26 The Cloud | Re: They didn't keep prices down Given ESPNs low ratings I would disagree. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  jmallory
join:2005-11-02 Clawson, MI
edit: August 4th, @02:43PM
| Re: They didn't keep prices down said by Skeedatl :Given ESPNs low ratings I would disagree. Tell you what, you go setup your own service with all the sports on another Tier, and you report back with how successful you are.
Ratings are irrelevant in this particular discussion, people may not watch ESPN all the time, but they want access to it. During the peak of football season I may watch 12 hours of ESPN weekly...1/2 to 1/3 that any other time...but I would still want it. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |   Skeedatl Ah, push it - push it real good Premium join:2007-12-26 The Cloud | Re: They didn't keep prices down Easy tiger. Good for you and your football but there are quite a few people not interested in channel welfare.
Sports fans should pay to support their very expensive channels instead of expecting everyone else to pay for them. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  jmallory
join:2005-11-02 Clawson, MI
| Re: They didn't keep prices down said by Skeedatl :Easy tiger. Good for you and your football but there are quite a few people not interested in channel welfare. Sports fans should pay to support their very expensive channels instead of expecting everyone else to pay for them. Yep, and as soon as you show me some numbers were 51% of the subscribers don't want at least ESPN, ESPN2, and their RSN...we can talk about the rest. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  jmallory
join:2005-11-02 Clawson, MI | Re: They didn't keep prices down It isn't the number of eyeballs that matter, it is the type of consumer those eyeballs are attached to and it is a very lucrative consumer. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |   Hi Desert
@qwest.net
| said by jmallory :said by Skeedatl :Easy tiger. Good for you and your football but there are quite a few people not interested in channel welfare. Sports fans should pay to support their very expensive channels instead of expecting everyone else to pay for them. Yep, and as soon as you show me some numbers were 51% of the subscribers don't want at least ESPN, ESPN2, and their RSN...we can talk about the rest.
You got it all wrong. Its not the market that is demanding ESPN to stay on all channel tiers. Its Disney's practice to bundle less popular channels with popular ones and even with some of their local networks they own. For example, if Dish wanted to create a tier without the expensive sports crap then Disney would drop Lifetime, possibly ABC, cartoon channels etc.. Its common knowledge that Disney extorts extra money through bundling extortion.. just do a google to confirm that. Disney owns so many channels as a content provider and they can basically charge more through bundling. Its totally wrong and is the major reason this industry needs regulation. These channels should exist on their own merit not on subsidies. And ESPN probably has the highest carriage fee of any channel and is one of the least watched channel. I'm sick of the increases myself and every time Dish has a hike I cut back services. I dropped one of my tuners last time. Next increase they will see me say goodbye. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |   N3OGH It's Biden Vs. the Biscuit. Sarah's hot Premium join:2003-11-11 Philly burbs
·Verizon Online DSL
| I can't remember the last time I watched ESPN.
I watch more Weather Channel and News channels than anything else.
Maybe History, Discovery, and AMC.
But I agree, at this point ESPN and other sports channels should be on a separate tier, given their cost. -- Petty people are disproportionably corrupted by petty power
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|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |   Skeedatl Ah, push it - push it real good Premium join:2007-12-26 The Cloud | Re: They didn't keep prices down Absolutely...bring on a la carte. | |
|  |  |  |  |  john1290
join:2003-12-06 Reynoldsburg, OH
| said by jmallory :said by Skeedatl :Sports should be on its own tier. Yes and we can have that argument for the next week as well, but the current market reality is that that the overwhelming majority of your prospective customers expect ESPN, ESPN2, and their local RSNs in the basic package. Says you. I hate any and all sports channels. I can't wait for the day of REASONABLE a la carte pricing. Once that happens, so long espn, mtv and many other worthless channels. Go on and cry that this will also kill off History channel, Discovery and other good channels. To that I say hardly. Because I believe that the majority of people here in the US actually watch/like those channels. Every time my friends and I discuss the dream of a la carte pricing, we're ALL in agreement that sports and music channels need to go buh-bye. Let you sports type pay the premiums to keep those types of shows on the air. I'm confident that most people will be happy to pay for/watch Discovery, History, TLC type stuff. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |   hobgoblin Sortof Agoblin Premium join:2001-11-25 Orchard Park, NY clubs:
| Re: They didn't keep prices down Top 20 Cable shows
Rank Shows NET DAY(S) Live+SD HH Rating Viewers Live+SD (000) 1 CLOSER, THE TNT MONDAY 4.7 7,058 2 NASCAR SPRINT CUP L (BRICKYARD 400) ESPN SUNDAY 4.3 6,668 3 HANNAH & MILEY:BEST OF DSNY SATURDAY 3.0 5,864 4 MONK USA FRIDAY 3.1 5,062 5 WWE ENTERTAINMENT (WWE RAW) USA MONDAY 3.0 4,961 6 BURN NOTICE USA THURSDAY 3.0 4,760 7 SAVING GRACE TNT MONDAY 3.1 4,571 8 FOOD NETWORK STAR FOOD SUNDAY 2.8 4,508 9 WWE ENTERTAINMENT (WWE RAW) USA MONDAY 2.7 4,494 10 PSYCH USA FRIDAY 2.8 4,484 11 ICARLY NICK FRIDAY 2.7 4,446 12 LAW & ORDER: CI (ORIG) USA SUNDAY 2.9 4,321 13 MLB SUNDAY NIGHT L (YANKEES/RED SOX) ESPN SUNDAY 2.8 4,230 14 IN PLAIN SIGHT USA SUNDAY 2.8 4,174 15 INCREDIBLES, THE DSNY SUNDAY 2.4 3,922 16 CAMP ROCK DSNY THURSDAY 2.4 3,913 17 ICARLY NICK FRIDAY 2.3 3,815 18 TBS PRIME MOVIE (LAST HOLIDAY) TBSC SUNDAY 2.4 3,813 19 S HANNAH MONTANA(S)-07/26/2008 DSNY SATURDAY 2.3 3,768 20 SPONGEBOB NICK SUNDAY 2.4 3,716
Not seeing many of your channels on there -- "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds." - Ralph Waldo Emerson
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|  |  |  |  |  |  jmallory
join:2005-11-02 Clawson, MI
edit: August 4th, @03:09PM
| said by john1290 :said by jmallory :said by Skeedatl :Sports should be on its own tier. Yes and we can have that argument for the next week as well, but the current market reality is that that the overwhelming majority of your prospective customers expect ESPN, ESPN2, and their local RSNs in the basic package. Says you. I hate any and all sports channels. I can't wait for the day of REASONABLE a la carte pricing. Once that happens, so long espn, mtv and many other worthless channels. Go on and cry that this will also kill off History channel, Discovery and other good channels. To that I say hardly. Because I believe that the majority of people here in the US actually watch/like those channels. Every time my friends and I discuss the dream of a la carte pricing, we're ALL in agreement that sports and music channels need to go buh-bye. Let you sports type pay the premiums to keep those types of shows on the air. I'm confident that most people will be happy to pay for/watch Discovery, History, TLC type stuff. Just show me the numbers that state even a "simple" majority (51%) are in agreement with you, we will talk. "Me and my friends" isn't going to cut it.
In addition, you know, if you really like the Discovery / TLC programming (and you should because a lot of it is top notch), you can always just buy the DVD/Blu-Rays when they are released. I have the complete Planet Earth Blu-Ray set (actually I have the BBC release) and I have been buying the Discovery Atlas series on HD-DVD and Blu-Ray when they are on sale. I also plan on getting "When We Left The Earth" as well to. You can see all the programming you like without even subscribing to Cable or Satellite.
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|  |  |  |  |  |  |   mahermusic
join:2001-07-06 Chesterfield, NJ
·Vonage
| Re: They didn't keep prices down said by jmallory :Just show me the numbers that state even a "simple" majority (51%) are in agreement with you, we will talk. "Me and my friends" isn't going to cut it. I've even turned off those channels via my TiVo, since noone even watches them. -- 1/20/09 = The final day of our Retarded Cowboy President! | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  jmallory
join:2005-11-02 Clawson, MI
| Re: They didn't keep prices down said by mahermusic :said by jmallory :Just show me the numbers that state even a "simple" majority (51%) are in agreement with you, we will talk. "Me and my friends" isn't going to cut it. I've even turned off those channels via my TiVo, since noone even watches them. You don't even make a simple majority of DSLreports subscribers let alone Cable and Satellite subscribers. I have no doubt that there are people who don't watch sports at all on Cable and Satellite, but I believe that they are in the minority. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  wentlanc You Can't Fix Dumb..
join:2003-07-30 Maineville, OH
| Re: They didn't keep prices down I don't watch them either. And if 51% do, let the other 49% of us cut that $5 - $6 from our bills.
Turning your logic against you, you don't make up a simple majority of anything either, so who are you to talk so poorly of the rest of us?
cw | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  jmallory
join:2005-11-02 Clawson, MI
| Re: They didn't keep prices down said by wentlanc :I don't watch them either. And if 51% do, let the other 49% of us cut that $5 - $6 from our bills. Turning your logic against you, you don't make up a simple majority of anything either, so who are you to talk so poorly of the rest of us? cw Wasn't putting anyone down...all I am saying is that if the majority of people expect things to be a certain way (like having ESPN, ESPN2, and FSN as part of basic service) then that is the way it is going to be. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  See 6 replies to this post | |
 |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  Corydon Cultivant son jardin Premium join:2008-02-18 Denver, CO clubs:
·Comcast
| Without solid numbers, you're both just blowing smoke.
Incidentally, the question isn't whether a majority watch sports on television, but whether they watch ESPN...a completely different question altogether.
Just browsing through what's on ESPN for the next days, I see:
- Lots of Sports Center - World Series of Poker (this is what qualifies as sports these days?) - "X-Games" (ditto) - A handful of talk shows about baseball, football or a few other things - Two out-of-market baseball games. - One out-of-market pre-season NFL game (Saints and Cardinals).
Granted, that's taken in the doldrums of summer, but still...I'd find it hard to believe that anyone who's not a pretty hardcore sports fan would get all that worked up about what they have on. Certainly nothing that a combination of local news and sports coverage plus talk radio doesn't cover at least as well and for free. -- "Think for yourselves and let others enjoy the privilege to do so too." | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  See 12 replies to this post | |
 |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  Austinloop
join:2001-08-19 Austin, TX | I don't watch ESPN and their ilk/spawn and I am on DSLreports and have Dish, so there! | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |   qazwsx2 yawn Premium join:2005-12-30 Tempe, AZ edit: August 4th, @06:03PM
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|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |   Cheese Premium join:2003-10-26 Naples, FL clubs: | No sports channels here either...I don't really care for them TBH | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |   qazwsx2 yawn Premium join:2005-12-30 Tempe, AZ
·Qwest.net
·DIRECTV
·Convergent Interne..
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| said by jmallory :said by mahermusic :said by jmallory :Just show me the numbers that state even a "simple" majority (51%) are in agreement with you, we will talk. "Me and my friends" isn't going to cut it. I've even turned off those channels via my TiVo, since noone even watches them. You don't even make a simple majority of DSLreports subscribers let alone Cable and Satellite subscribers. I have no doubt that there are people who don't watch sports at all on Cable and Satellite, but I believe that they are in the minority. 
quote: USA Network wrapped up 2006 as the most-watched ad-supported cable channel, averaging 2.63 million total viewers in prime time over the course of the year, an increase of 13 percent versus 2005.
According to Nielsen Media Research data, USA also beat all comers in the core demos, averaging 1.18 million adults 18-49 (an 11 percent increase over 2005) and 1.19 million adults 25-54 (a 9 percent year-to-year hike), breaking TNT's four-year winning streak among the two categories. USA also notched the best number with adults 18-34 (537,000, up 15 percent versus last year).
In the total cable universe, non-ad-supported Disney closed out the year at number two, averaging 2.54 million viewers in prime, a 20 percent jump from its 2005 performance. Disney claimed 12 of the year's top 100 programs of 2006, reaching its apogee on Aug. 25 with its original movie The Cheetah Girls 2, which debuted to 8.12 million viewers between 8 p.m. and 10 p.m.
Among ad-supported nets, TNT finished on the heels of rival USA, averaging 2.38 million viewers in prime, a dip of 7 percent from the number it posted in 2005. The Turner net also took second among adults 18-49 (1.07 million, down 8 percent) and adults 25-54 (1.14 million, down 8 percent)
i dont see espn here:
»articles.latimes.com/2008/mar/26···et-usa26 quote: USAs view from the top
The reinvented cable network is No. 1 thanks to its president and a few quirky characters.
By Matea Gold March 26, 2008 in print edition E-1
NEW YORK When USA Network holds its annual upfront presentation here this evening to pitch advertisers on upcoming programming, the cable channel wont just be spotlighting its new development slate.
Also on display: the triumphant four-year tenure of its president, Bonnie Hammer, who helped USA regain basic cables top perch.
The channel brought in nearly $700 million in profit last year, an impressive amount even compared with the broadcast networks, including NBC, its corporate sibling, which made about $300 million. USAs success has helped lift Hammers fortunes as well. On Monday, NBC Universal announced it was expanding her domain by giving her oversight of a new cable studio split off from Universal Media Studios and putting her in charge of emerging cable channels such as Chiller and Sleuth.
The only thing surprising about Hammers new responsibilities is that she didnt get them sooner. Since the television veteran took over USA in 2004, it has shaken off its reputation for stale programming and reinvigorated a graying audience with younger viewers.
By wooing World Wrestling Entertainment back to the channel and promoting the likes of Tony Shalhoubs obsessive-compulsive detective Adrian Monk as part of its Characters Welcome brand, USA reclaimed the top spot in prime time on ad-supported cable in 2006 for the first time in six years. Last year, the channel beat its competitors again with a record average of 2.7 million viewers.
So far this quarter, USAs audience is up 7% over the same period last year to nearly 3 million viewers, putting it ahead of the broadcast network the CW for the first time.
it is you that should be proving to us that more people watch ESPN because we have plenty of proof that is not true | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  See 7 replies to this post | |
 |  |  |   dvd536 as Mr. Pink as they come Premium join:2001-04-27 Phoenix, AZ
| said by Skeedatl :Sports should be on its own tier. AMEN! -- When I gez aju zavateh na nalechoo more new yonooz tonigh molinigh - Ken Lee | |
|  |  Josimars
join:2001-04-24 Port Chester, NY | One of the reason why they are going to lose more customers including me is the fact that they no longer carry GOL TV. They need to get their act together before the new European soccer season starts or esle adios at least from me | |
|  |  |   KrK Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy Premium join:2000-01-17 Tulsa, OK
·Cox HSI
·AT&T Southwest
| Re: Cable & telco triple plays are eating in to their base The biggest problem that Dish (and DirecTV) have is they can't do the bundled deals.
Cable, and now TelcoTV have the big market advantage of being able to bundle TV WITH Broadband (And phone, VOIP, even wireless in some cases.)
Satellite operators can provide great TV service but that's it really. They can't cut you a deal on some Broadband. So the competition is beating them with the bundles.
So all the Dish companies can do is lower prices to compete.... which cuts their margins and profits. Long term, Satellite may be in trouble. -- "Regulatory capitalism is when companies invest in lawyers, lobbyists, and politicians, instead of plant, people, and customer service." - former FCC Chairman William Kennard (A real FCC Chairman, unlike the current Corporate Spokesperson in the job!) | |
|  |  |  Corydon Cultivant son jardin Premium join:2008-02-18 Denver, CO clubs:
·Comcast
| Re: Cable & telco triple plays are eating in to their base said by KrK :The biggest problem that Dish (and DirecTV) have is they can't do the bundled deals. Very true. That's why I use Comcast here at home, although my family has a vacation house in a rural area that we're looking at satellite for when OTA broadcast goes digital and we'll likely lose our really spotty signal.
That may be where satellite can make up the difference...there's a lot of real estate out there that the cable companies and telcos have absolutely zero interest in. The question is whether that's enough to survive. -- "Think for yourselves and let others enjoy the privilege to do so too." | |
|  |  |  |  |  JSRoman Premium join:2005-03-10 Callahan, FL
| Promo and Marketing Crazy In my area DISH is promo and marketing crazy. They are offering deals that there is no way they can be making money on unless the sub stays around for 2-3 years. Combine that with amount of deadbeats that just go from cable to sat and never pay their bill and you get quarters like this. SAT and especially DISH Network IMO has the weaker credit and collection policy and the numbers are starting to show that.
-- »www.seabee.navy.mil | |
|  |   dvd536 as Mr. Pink as they come Premium join:2001-04-27 Phoenix, AZ
| Re: Promo and Marketing Crazy said by JSRoman :In my area DISH is promo and marketing crazy. They are offering deals that there is no wa |
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