Shockingly, Infrastructure Investment Is BoomingNot so afraid of the network neutrality wolf.... ( old news - 11:08AM Thursday Feb 08 2007) tags: business · bandwidth · Op/Ed · legislation · Politics · net-neutralityLast week a think tank tried to blame network neutrality advocates for potential bandwidth shortages. The argument, used increasingly of late by incumbent and other infrastructure lobbyists, tries to establish the premise that the spectre of network neutrality laws will stifle investment in infrastructure, leaving us all with crappy connectivity (usually a congested LA highway metaphor is thrown in for good measure). Of course in reality, infrastructure investment is booming. While there are plenty of legitimate reasons to oppose network neutrality laws (politician incompetence being a common one), the concept of network neutrality laws resulting in capacity armageddon simply isn't factual, unless these providers are all secretly eager to go out of business. Should network neutrality laws limit their ability to create their desired tiers (Cisco whitepaper pdf) of service, does anyone really doubt this industry won't find creative ways to recoup investment costs? Incumbent industry lobbyists have always used the threat of scaled-back broadband deployment to get legislators on their side, and this carrot on a stick approach has always worked. Related:- New Bill: Broadband Is 2Mbps
- Mapping American Broadband
- Don't Get Too Excited About The FCC's Comcast 'Investigation'
- Google, You're a Wireless Tease
- Remember How The Net Neutrality Fight Began
- Nation's Largest ISPs Crafting Fake National Broadband Policy
- Embarq: Selling User Browsing Data 'Empowers' Users
- Friday Morning Links
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 viperlmw Premium join:2005-01-25
·Qwest.net
edit: February 8th, @11:28AM
| Carrot and stick Commercial entities always use carrot and stick to get what they want. It's what they do.
However, I don't believe that bandwidth providers are intimating a bandwidth armageddon. Most of the talk you hear is intended for investors. When they talk about 'enhanced services' (that's the phrase they use, here it's called 'tiered service'), I think that mostly it's just about innovation, trying to envision what service a customer may want and figuring out how to provide that service, and letting investors know that they are actually working. As much as people here love to hate these providers, you wouldn't be reading this now without them.
BTW, I never considered Cisco an infrastructure lobbyist. Interesting take. | |
|  karlmarx
join:2006-09-18 Nashua, NH
·Fairpoint Communic..
| they lie? and we're suprised because? Of course the megacorps are going to lie about it. For them, the ONLY thing that matters is to provide the least amount of service, at the highest price they can charge. Look at comcast, the so called 'BMW' of internet access. Comcast is a rip-off by any measure. Compare the 65.00 comcraptic access charges vs the 29.00 100mb full duplex charges overseas. Comcast rapes the customer BECAUSE THEY CAN. A corporation is not a living, breathing person. A corporation is a mindless construct of pure evil, whose sole purpose is to take from the poor, and give to the rich. It's high time we stop listening to the lies and half-truths these bastards keep crying, and FORCE them to work for the COMMON GOOD. That's what the FCC's original mandate was, but it's been corrupted by corporate greed and malfeasance -- Stick it to the MAN. Support your local torrent sites. Proudly providing 100mb of upstream for all your TV, Movie, and MP3 needs. | |
|  |   halfband Premium join:2002-06-01 Huntsville, AL
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| Re: they lie? and we're suprised because? said by karlmarx :Comcast is a rip-off by any measure. Compare the 65.00 comcraptic access charges vs the 29.00 100mb full duplex charges overseas. I think you will find the $29 for 100mb systems are subsidised. Infrastructure is not free, somebody paid for or invested money to put it up.
said by karlmarx :Comcast rapes the customer BECAUSE THEY CAN. A corporation is not a living, breathing person. A corporation is a mindless construct of pure evil, whose sole purpose is to take from the poor, and give to the rich. You give the corporations too much credit. They are generally truly mindless single purpose entities. But they are not inherently evil, they just act in an evil manner in a competitive environment. They are not out to take from the poor and give to the rich, they would willingly take from the rich an poor alike. Of course if the poor owned the corporation, they would become the rich through the profits of the corporation. In the US you are supposed to be able to get your slice of the pie by buying your part of the corporations in the stock market. -- Registered Bandwidth Offender #40812 | |
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| Re: they lie? and we're suprised because? said by halfband :Of course if the poor owned the corporation, they would become the rich through the profits of the corporation. In the US you are supposed to be able to get your slice of the pie by buying your part of the corporations in the stock market. Yeah, but I think they've got things like health care, eating their next meal and such on their mind first, so investing in the stock market isn't exactly a luxury for most for most of them. Like the old saying goes...
"It takes money, to make money." -- Prove it... | |
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| Re: they lie? and we're suprised because? said by bmn :"It takes money, to make money." Absolutely true. The trick of course is to borrow someone elses money to do it. That is where the investors come in. -- Registered Bandwidth Offender #40812 | |
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| Re: they lie? and we're suprised because? said by halfband :said by bmn :"It takes money, to make money." Absolutely true. The trick of course is to borrow someone elses money to do it. That is where the investors come in. Vicious circle... Just got to remember, how many low income people have credit ratings that give them oppurtunity to get loans for investments, etc. ? -- Prove it... | |
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| Re: they lie? and we're suprised because? If you change the cloths and modernize the implements and tools the people are each carrying, it can likely be shown that such a structure exists...
You can call it propaganda all you want. The structure is aptly constructed, albeit somewhat exaggerated, unless you can point out an error someplace in there.
And this comes from some one who isn't a Marxist. -- Prove it... | |
|  |   vpoko Premium join:2003-07-03 Jamaica Plain, MA
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| said by karlmarx :Of course the megacorps are going to lie about it. For them, the ONLY thing that matters is to provide the least amount of service, at the highest price they can charge. Look at comcast, the so called 'BMW' of internet access. Comcast is a rip-off by any measure. Compare the 65.00 comcraptic access charges vs the 29.00 100mb full duplex charges overseas. Comcast rapes the customer BECAUSE THEY CAN. A corporation is not a living, breathing person. A corporation is a mindless construct of pure evil, whose sole purpose is to take from the poor, and give to the rich. It's high time we stop listening to the lies and half-truths these bastards keep crying, and FORCE them to work for the COMMON GOOD. That's what the FCC's original mandate was, but it's been corrupted by corporate greed and malfeasance If there were NO corporations, there would be NO broadband. It's not corporations that are evil to you, it's the whole notion of business. After all, a rich person can go into business and make themselves richer without needing to incorporate. | |
|  |  |  Nuts
join:2006-04-27 Forest, OH | Re: they lie? and we're suprised because? they can also end up totally broke also.  | |
|  |  |  xsiddalx
join:2005-03-11 Chicago, IL
·AT&T Yahoo
·AT&T DSL Service
| Why do you believe Corporations are necessary for broadband?
As for the good/evil debate...it is debatable and not really related to broadband...
If there were NO corporations, there would be NO broadband. It's not corporations that are evil to you, it's the whole notion of business. After all, a rich person can go into business and make themselves richer without needing to incorporate. | |
|  |  |  |   vpoko Premium join:2003-07-03 Jamaica Plain, MA
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| Re: they lie? and we're suprised because? said by xsiddalx :Why do you believe Corporations are necessary for broadband? Corporations exist so that lots of people can pool their resources into a business entity. Can you imagine a single person, or even a small partnership, being able to raise capital to build infrastructure? I'll be the first to say that there are lots of imperfections and abuses in our corporate system that need to be addressed, but saying we're anti-corporate while using corporations' services is like a 4-year old saying they're anti-parents. | |
|  |  |  |  |  xsiddalx
join:2005-03-11 Chicago, IL
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| Re: they lie? and we're suprised because? said by vpoko :said by xsiddalx :Why do you believe Corporations are necessary for broadband? Corporations exist so that lots of people can pool their resources into a business entity. Can you imagine a single person, or even a small partnership, being able to raise capital to build infrastructure? I'll be the first to say that there are lots of imperfections and abuses in our corporate system that need to be addressed, but saying we're anti-corporate while using corporations' services is like a 4-year old saying they're anti-parents. I can imagine anyone building capital, Corporations are necessary to raise venture capital, but I will not deny that they might be a necessity for reasons other than a profit producing product.
Nevertheless, anyone can build infrastructure. Why can't any of your examples make a go at it? Does incorpration have a magic "profitability" wand?
I think I messed up my quoting...button....are you sure you aren't responding to my quote? Interestingly enough, you seem to lean on the "corporation" as a saviour as much as the original poster used "anti corporation". Both examples are 4 or 50 year old "anti-parents".
Again, can you clarify what the business classification have to do with broadband deployment? | |
|  |  |  |  |  |   vpoko Premium join:2003-07-03 Jamaica Plain, MA
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| Re: they lie? and we're suprised because? said by xsiddalx :Again, can you clarify what the business classification have to do with broadband deployment? Sorry if I was unclear. A corporation is a practical way to have a business with a large number of partners (investors). Corporations are able to to raise capital by selling stock (bringing more partners into the mix by giving them an ownership stake). Without that mechanism, the only way to raise capital would be to borrow (bonds), and for the large investments needed for infrastructure, companies need all the capital they can get. | |
|  raye Premium join:2000-08-14 Orange, CA
| Businesses usually drive infrstructure improvements Whether you like it or not, businesses that pay thousands of dollars a month for multiple pipes to multiple IP backbones drive the investment in infrastructure, not home users and their (very) asymmetric cable or DSL connections at $40/month. Until more folks push the limits of their home connections (which the vast majority do not) and/or demand more symmetric (better upload) connections then I do not not see any bandwidth shortages on the horizon. There is still unused fiber that is yet to be lit here in the US AFAIK.
From what happened late last year with the earthquake and loss of connectivity in Asia, it is the Asia to US (and rest of world) where there appears to be a bandwidth shortage. | |
|   richardpor Fur it up
join:2003-04-19 Portland, OR
| Wait one 1. Net Neutrality law has not passed but; do not court the chickens before they hatch.
2. IF Net Neutrality law does pass it would open a new business opportunities for the telecoms. Any regulation the internet would crimp and investment on the internet. Goggle will clog the internet with videos. Instead of the internet new infrastructure will be sold to business as dedicated clutter free connection. If anything Net Neutrality would smother the internet as Goggle will find out you cant force private business to give you bandwidth to grow you business for free* and, private corporations will turn to faster and clutter free private dedicated connections.
* I know what some of you all are going to say, but Me and Goggle has all ready paid for the pipes. This is true but only in part. You do not pay for the backbone but to move data on the pipes at a current bandwidth service, you did not pay for any improved and faster service. Like many companies you do not have a right to get a premium service for free. For example you can not expect to buy a hamburger and expect to get prime rib or buy a coach ticket and expect to get first class seat and service. | |
|  |   major marco Res Firma Mitescere Nescit Premium join:2003-02-13 Mission Viejo, CA clubs:
| Re: Wait one said by richardpor : Goggle will clog the internet with videos. Instead of the internet new infrastructure will be sold to business as dedicated clutter free connection. Ok, Ted. And did you only just receive your Internet today when your staff sent your Internet on Friday? The Internet is not a dump truck. It's a series of tubes, dammit! And Goggle is clogging it! -- The Toll
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|  |   Jason Levine Premium join:2001-07-13 Albany, NY
| said by richardpor :Any regulation the internet would crimp and investment on the internet. Goggle will clog the internet with videos. As far as I know, there's no way for Google to "clog the Internet with videos." This would assume that they are purposefully broadcasting tons of video files all over the Internet whether people wanted them or not. The reality is that Google might make tons of videos available, but it is the users who decide which videos (if any) actually traverse the Internet.
said by richardpor :I know what some of you all are going to say, but Me and Goggle has all ready paid for the pipes. This is true but only in part. You do not pay for the backbone but to move data on the pipes at a current bandwidth service, you did not pay for any improved and faster service. Like many companies you do not have a right to get a premium service for free. For example you can not expect to buy a hamburger and expect to get prime rib or buy a coach ticket and expect to get first class seat and service. Actually, "Me and Google" will pay for all of the bandwidth costs including any improved and faster service. Let's say Google wants to make tons of videos available, they'll pay their ISP for the bandwidth needed. That ISP buys their bandwidth from an upstream provider and so on to the top of the chain. (The "top of the chain" companies have peering arrangements as their traffic tends to even out.)
On the user end, the user pays their ISP for some bandwidth. Their ISP pays an upstream provider and so on up the chain again.
Now, if an ISP sees that their network is slowing down and/or they want to get a competitive advantage, they'll upgrade their network. Users who want this upgraded network (with the faster speeds) will likely pay more. (If they don't pay more, the upgrade is factored into normal costs of doing business just like an advertising budget.) Web companies who want faster speeds will also pay more. Sure, an infrastructure investment might not break even and become profitable overnight, but if/when it does it will be because the users paid for it. | |
|  |  bmn ? ? ? Premium,ExMod 2003-06 join:2001-03-15 hiatus
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| First off, you might look at returning to grammar school and try to relearn that whole reading and writing thing. Your grammar is awful and takes a decode ring to decipher.
said by [user-richardpor :
]IF Net Neutrality law does pass it would open a new business opportunities for the telecoms. Any regulation the internet would crimp and investment on the internet. Everyone says that, but no one can prove that. Additionally, net neutrality regulation would protection the ability of new comers to the internet to create new services and make investments. Without it, no one would be able to compete after having paid their monthly protection bribe to the ATT mafia for packet protection.
Goggle will clog the internet with videos. And if "Goggle" doesn't do it, the Telcos are going to do it. Sorry, believing the telco line that Google is going to kill the internet is foolish.
If anything Net Neutrality would smother the internet as Goggle will find out you cant force private business to give you bandwidth to grow you business for free* and, private corporations will turn to faster and clutter free private dedicated connections. Actually, Net Neutrality wouldn't do any of that. Thanks for playing. Additionally, "Goggle" doesn't get any "force private business" to do anything... So, thanks for playing, please come back again.
said by richardpor :I know what some of you all are going to say, but Me and Goggle has all ready paid for the pipes. This is true but only in part. You do not pay for the backbone but to move data on the pipes at a current bandwidth service, you did not pay for any improved and faster service. Like many companies you do not have a right to get a premium service for free. For example you can not expect to buy a hamburger and expect to get prime rib or buy a coach ticket and expect to get first class seat and service. Certainly shows how little you know about this issue. Actually Google DOES pay for premium level service from backbone providers. The costs of that level of service are certainly enough for those providers to invest in infrastructure upgrades.
I recommend you brush on this subject because you clearly have a lot to learn about the whole NN debate, as do most of the people who post about it. -- Prove it... | |
|  |  |  jtel
join:2005-06-28 Bristol, RI | Re: Wait one I would think that if Google has the fiber and the traffic that they are peering not paying. | |
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| Re: Wait one said by jtel :I would think that if Google has the fiber and the traffic that they are peering not paying. Arguable. If they aren't paying for ANY bandwidth, than they would classify as a Tier 1 network, which they are not. I can guarantee you that Google is paying for bandwidth at some points in their network. The fibre they invested in was mostly for invest datacenter traffic. -- Prove it... | |
|  |  |  viperlmw Premium join:2005-01-25
·Qwest.net
edit: February 9th, @02:34PM
| said by bmn :Actually Google DOES pay for premium level service from backbone providers. The costs of that level of service are certainly enough for those providers to invest in infrastructure upgrades. Where is your evidence? Do you know exactly how Google connects to the Internet, and how much they pay who and for what? Have you seen an invoice or other itemized detail? Maybe some others here have things to learn.
BTW, your grammar isn't exactly English 101, either. | |
|  |  |  |  bmn ? ? ? Premium,ExMod 2003-06 join:2001-03-15 hiatus
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| Re: Wait one said by viperlmw :Where is your evidence? Do you know exactly how Google connects to the Internet, and how much they pay who and for what? Have you seen an invoice or other itemized detail? Maybe some others here have things to learn. Sorry, but you have examples of Google having nothing but peering agreements where ? Considering a lot of peering agreements are placed under non-disclosure agreements, how could you produce such evidence without suddenly being open to a lawsuit ? Sorry, but the assumption is that Google is paying for transport in locations where they aren't peering. Additionally, if you had an idea about the type of traffic that Google generated, mostly unidirectional, it is unlikely that they would exclusively have SFI (settlement free interconnect) or free peering agreements. They may be at some of the major exchange points and some of the smaller ISPs may have interconnected with them just to reduce their costs, but a large network that is incurring a cost from having Google peered with little return isn't going to let them enter into an SFI agreement for long. Google is paying for the bandwidth it is using.
Clearly you need to get a bit more familiar with the way the internet works.
BTW, your grammar isn't exactly English 101, either. 
The OP's post takes the cake for bad grammar. Perhaps you should note that you have grammar oddities of your own too. Either way, the OP's posts have always between poorly written rants. -- Prove it... | |
|  |  |  |  |  viperlmw Premium join:2005-01-25
·Qwest.net
| Re: Wait one said by bmn :said by viperlmw :Where is your evidence? Do you know exactly how Google connects to the Internet, and how much they pay who and for what? Have you seen an invoice or other itemized detail? Maybe some others here have things to learn. Sorry, but you have examples of Google having nothing but peering agreements where ? Considering a lot of peering agreements are placed under non-disclosure agreements, how could you produce such evidence without suddenly being open to a lawsuit ? Sorry, but the assumption is that Google is paying for transport in locations where they aren't peering. Additionally, if you had an idea about the type of traffic that Google generated, mostly unidirectional, it is unlikely that they would exclusively have SFI (settlement free interconnect) or free peering agreements. They may be at some of the major exchange points and some of the smaller ISPs may have interconnected with them just to reduce their costs, but a large network that is incurring a cost from having Google peered with little return isn't going to let them enter into an SFI agreement for long. Google is paying for the bandwidth it is using. Clearly you need to get a bit more familiar with the way the internet works. BTW, your grammar isn't exactly English 101, either.  The OP's post takes the cake for bad grammar. Perhaps you should note that you have grammar oddities of your own too. Either way, the OP's posts have always between poorly written rants. I just noticed this reply to my post from almost 2 weeks ago, but can't let it stand. Where do you get off telling others what they need to do? You throw around buzzwords and terms like peering and SFI and tell me I need to "get a bit more familiar with the way the internet works", without any evidence to support your assumptions.
I never said that I "have examples of Google having nothing but peering agreements". You are assuming that they do not: "Sorry, but the assumption is that Google is paying for transport in locations where they aren't peering", however you offer no evidence, just buzzwords (kinda like what you accused me of months ago about net neutrality and Cisco, and told me then that I needed to learn more).
Your tag on your Sig says "Prove it", yet you fail to do this. I have never made any personal statements about you (either good, bad, or indifferent), with the possible exception of "BTW, your grammar isn't exactly English 101, either". It appears you are somewhat defensive, trying to justify your attack on the OP "The OP's post takes the cake for bad grammar. Perhaps you should note that you have grammar oddities of your own too. Either way, the OP's posts have always between poorly written rants". I never said that I don't have grammar oddities. You're pointing out that I have oddities seems kind of small. I was trying to prompt you to come up with some evidence as your tag indicates you need, but you have not come up with any. As a result, all of your assumptions aren't worth spit, and your 'superior knowledge' has been shown to be hollow.
You appear to be an ExMod, yet write in a very un-moderator way (I don't suppose the Ex part and your tendency towards personal attack have anything to do with each other). Please stop the personal attacks. I like many others here still have lots to learn. If you are so smart, and so knowledgeable and so connected with the industry, then please help impart that knowledge to others, as well as me, in a non-judgemental, non-condescending manner. And always remember, if you are going with the tag "Prove it", then remember that others will hold you to that standard as well. | |
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edit: February 24th, @12:43AM
| Re: Wait one Wow... Talk about getting hung up on something.
Your tag on your Sig says "Prove it", yet you fail to do this. I never have to prove the negative. You made an assumption that Google pays for none of their bandwidth. I merely pointed out that your assumption was faulty because you had no proof to back it. Ergo, your assumption held no water. As for buzzwords and technical terms, they are relevant to the discussion.
Additionally, telling you to get an understanding of SFI before you step into the discussion where the issue is going to come up when it seems that you don't know how SFI works its perfectly excusable. If you had an understanding of SFI, you would know EXACTLY why Google has to be paying for bandwidth.
You appear to be an ExMod, yet write in a very un-moderator way (I don't suppose the Ex part and your tendency towards personal attack have anything to do with each other). Nope... As for the way I write, it has to do with the fact that on a regular basis I have to respond to many people who have NO clue about X but think they have a clue about X and try to sound like they have a clue about X. That's not specifically directed at you, honestly, rather at years of people coming on the boards and calling X a Y, saying something totally wrong about Z, etc. etc.
You should just let this drop... -- Prove it... | |
|  bamabrad
join:2006-01-27 Port Orange, FL
| Numbers = money The more numbers (customers), the more money-which it is all about. Let the market decide. If another corp decides to compete (faster speeds,better content,lower prices,better services, etc.), then some type of safe guard should be in place to prevent a monopoly giant from squashing them. | |
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