Slate Still Thinks Overpaying For Wireless Data Is Nifty Paying $10 Per Gigabyte 'Feels So Fair' Insists Author In 2009, Slate author Farhad Manjoo penned an article insisting AT&T should ditch their $30, unlimited data plan. At the time we pointed out how like many people, Manjoo was confusing reasonable per-byte pricing (paying for what you use) with what carriers really are interested in -- which is flat rate pricing with low caps and high per byte overages. Regardless, in June of last year Manjoo (and the investment communty) got what they wanted, when AT&T introduced caps as low as 200 MB and per gig overages as high as $10, some of the most restrictive plans in the industry. Some people (like Manjoo) applauded the shift, not quite understanding they were applauding an entirely new overpriced data paradigm. While some variety of reasonable caps, throttling and/or network management are certainly necessary on wireless networks, AT&T's 200 MB cap was simply absurd in the age of wireless video. Fast forward to 2011 -- a month before the Verizon iPhone launch -- and Manjoo is back with a new piece again attacking the concept of unlimited data, insisting that flat rate unlimited pricing not only raises prices but "ruins the network." Manjoo goes on to insist that because the world so far hasn't shuddered to a digital halt, AT&T's ultra-low wireless caps must have been a good idea: If you're worried about a world without unlimited plans, consider that it's been more than six months since AT&T imposed an iPhone usage cap, and so far the service is working really well. AT&T alerts you by text and e-mail when you're nearing your monthly cap, and surpassing the cap doesn't result in onerous fees. If you go over your 200 MB plan, AT&T charges you $15 for 200 more megabytes, and if you blow by the 2 GB plan, you're charged $10 for 1 GB more. Those are reasonable rates; indeed, because the prices feel so fair, I wonder if many people even notice that their plans are limited in any way. The caps are there, but in practice, AT&T's iPhone plan feels unlimited. Those are reasonable rates; indeed, because the prices feel so fair. -Slate, on AT&T's 200MB caps and $10 per gigabyte overages |
One, it's not clear on which planet paying $10 per gigabyte is "reasonable." It's also not quite clear how you can claim in one sentence that the system "doesn't result in onerous fees," only to proceed to note in the next sentence that AT&T's overages are a whopping $10 per gigabyte. Granted what "feels fair" depends on your disposable income level, but for most AT&T users, AT&T's pricing "feels like having the ever-loving crap beaten out of you in a Detroit alley." As long as we're talking candidly about feelings, anyway. Two, left unmentioned by Manjoo is the fact the majority of AT&T users were grandfathered on their unlimited plans. While AT&T required many users shift to the 2GB plan if they wanted to tether, smart AT&T users simply jailbroke their iPhone, tethered without AT&T's approval, and remained on their unlimited plans. It was telling that it wasn't until December that AT&T released any real data on their pricing shift, at which point they simply declared the pricing change was a smashing success because 7 million of AT&T's 93 million wireless users were now metered, with the "vast majority" of those on AT&T's "top shelf" 2GB plan. Obviously that's a "success" for AT&T, as the entire point of their pricing plan was to drive the majority of users toward higher monthly bills under the guise of cost savings. With the vast majority of smartphone users consuming well in excess of 200 MB each month (and growing very quickly), they're all herded to the higher 2 GB tier. The actual choice in this regard is an illusion, and AT&T's absurdly-low 2 GB cap then shoves consumers head first into AT&T's $10 per gigabyte overage wall. As wireless video use evolves and average usage grows, AT&T then reaps the reward by imposing unreasonably high per gig charges on subscribers. Again, that's a success for AT&T, but not for the wireless user of 2015. What's interesting is how people like Manjoo continue to accept the carrier claim that flat-rate unlimited data (terrestrial or wireless) is simply not possible, despite not one shred of raw network performance data from AT&T. With ever-evolving intelligent network gear, unlimited data absolutely is possible without "ruining the network," but only if you keep your networks upgraded in line with demand (you'll perhaps recall AT&T failing utterly in this regard in 2009). Consumers also like the simplicity of flat-rate unlimited, and continue to show they're willing to pay a premium for it. Others are ok with caps or even throttling, but they want the restrictions to be clear and reasonable. So what's really AT&T's problem with unlimited? It's not congestion. Carriers AT&T's size have made a professional habit of using the congestion bogeyman to justify anti-competitive behavior and higher prices over the last decade -- amazingly without real supporting evidence. The reality is that when AT&T's network hasn't kept up with user demand, it has been AT&T's fault -- given they're sitting on $10 billion in unused spectrum and have repeatedly placed short-term investor satisfaction over consumer welfare or network performance on both the terrestrial and wireless fronts. Look at any number of consumer satisfaction studies, and you'll find the vast majority rate AT&T dead last. There's a reason for that, and it's not unlimited pricing. The reality is that unlimited broadband doesn't allow a bloated, government-pampered giant like AT&T to artificially constrict the pipe. Artificially constricting the pipe is important to AT&T because in the age of open networks, AT&T executives realize market evolution could erode their gatekeeper power. In the era of Google voice, Skype and smartphones, SMS and voice revenues will continue to decline as everything becomes data, and all services (from voicemail to messaging) are developed by companies far more innovative than AT&T. That ultimately leaves AT&T as simply a network operator (gasp), jacking up data rates to unreasonable levels in the hopes of retaining something close to the level of cash cow comfort and market power they're used to. Obviously AT&T's in the business to make money, and adjusting your business model to counter predicted losses is natural. But it needs to be remembered that as a company grafted to the bones of our intelligence apparatus protected by well-lobbied regulators, AT&T doesn't have to adhere to free market principles that punish anti-consumer pricing. As this pricing experimentation continues, consumers should be fighting vehemently to ensure caps and overages are reasonable, since nobody else will. Consumer groups are underfunded and forcefully marginalized, politicians and regulators treat such punitive pricing models as borderline patriotic, and the press apparently believes that $10 per gigabyte just "feels so fair." If, like Slate, you're cheering wildly in blind support of unreasonably-low caps and ridiculously-high per byte overages in the age of HD video, you're cheering against our collective self-interests as consumers. We'll have to remember to thank you and Mr. Manjoo in 2015 when we have to take out a second mortgage just to watch a high definition film on our smartphones.
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 IPPlanManHoly Cable Modem Batman join:2000-09-20 Washington, DC kudos:1 | Loving that unlimited plan... I'm loving that unlimited data plan for my iPhone 4... I couldn't imagine using the phone any other way. I love my Netflix, pandora, radio, etc.
Caps and overages is a great way to turn a smart phone into a dumb phone... | |
|  |  Duramax08A Challenger AppearsPremium join:2008-08-03 San Antonio, TX | Re: Loving that unlimited plan... Im another unlimited data plan customer here and glad I have it. Used about 20gb this month. Used it alot when I was on travel this last holiday to keep entertained. | |
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 wize @broadviewnet.net | Manjoo needs to re-enroll in basic math and economic courses
looks like this Manjoo guy dropped out of basic math and economics classes. he needs to go back to finish those and that may help him calculate the data cost per mb that ATT charges | |
|  |  |  | | Re: I second that emotion ! Thanks for writing that article. | |
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 |  |  gb5393 join:2010-01-05 Jamul, CA | Re: Without video streaming I am doing ok Might wanna edit your number out... | |
|  |  |  | | Re: Without video streaming I am doing ok said by gb5393:Might wanna edit your number out... Thanks! | |
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 Romney2012Defeat Obama 2012-Chg we can believe inPremium join:2002-03-03 USA kudos:4 | Watch a high definition film on our smartphones? Why?
This is the part I will never get, I guess. 1st - Who wants to watch HD movies on a smartphone with a 3" to 4" screen? 2nd - Who, while away from home and moving about, or at work, or at school has the time to watch a movie anyway? | |
|  |  | | Re: Watch a high definition film on our smartphones? Why? said by Romney2012:2nd - Who, while away from home and moving about, or at work, or at school has the time to watch a movie anyway? the 18 million unemployed citizens of this country! -- "Thanks for the dance... and cut yourself a slice'a throat! " - Curly (HOI POLLOI, 1935) | |
|  |  |  Romney2012Defeat Obama 2012-Chg we can believe inPremium join:2002-03-03 USA kudos:4 1 edit | Re: Watch a high definition film on our smartphones? Why? said by S_engineer:said by Romney2012:2nd - Who, while away from home and moving about, or at work, or at school has the time to watch a movie anyway? the 18 million unemployed citizens of this country! Well then, they should be using their money for something other than minimal smartphone data plans. | |
|  |  |  |  coldmoonPremium join:2002-02-04 Broadway, NC Reviews:
·Windstream
| Re: Watch a high definition film on our smartphones? Why? said by Romney2012:said by S_engineer:said by Romney2012:2nd - Who, while away from home and moving about, or at work, or at school has the time to watch a movie anyway? the 18 million unemployed citizens of this country! Well then, they should be using their money for something other than smartphone data plans. Yummm - snarky! 
As we go forward in time, all communications, entertainment, and Internet use are going to be mobile and completely ubiquitous. If the carriers really wanted to take a hold of the ol' brass ring and be there to reap the rewards this change will bring, they need to start now and stop trying to keep their business models on life support.
Its time AT&T and the other carriers injected some serious entrepreneurial spirit and embraced the possibilities. Dragging their heels will only lead to unwanted regulation at some point when public opinion forces politicians to take action...
JMHO Mike -- Returnil - 21st Century body armor for your PC | |
|  |  |  |  |  openbox9 join:2004-01-26 Alexandria, VA kudos:2 | Re: Watch a high definition film on our smartphones? Why? said by coldmoon:Its time AT&T and the other carriers injected some serious entrepreneurial spirit and embraced the possibilities. And your suggestion is? There are many around forums such as this that wish the carriers to be nothing more than "dumb pipes". Assuming you aren't one of those, what exactly do you recommend that the carriers pursue from an entrepreneurial perspective that won't irritate many other people? | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  coldmoonPremium join:2002-02-04 Broadway, NC Reviews:
·Windstream
| Re: Watch a high definition film on our smartphones? Why? said by openbox9:said by coldmoon:Its time AT&T and the other carriers injected some serious entrepreneurial spirit and embraced the possibilities. And your suggestion is? There are many around forums such as this that wish the carriers to be nothing more than "dumb pipes". Assuming you aren't one of those, what exactly do you recommend that the carriers pursue from an entrepreneurial perspective that won't irritate many other people? The first step is to aggressively reinvest profits back into the company to expand capacity and coverage. At the very least, this will provide room to grow as more adopt mobile services and the resources they need going forward.
The next step is to spin off some startups from that revenue stream (controlled by the applicable carrier) to recruit talent and explore emerging models for content creation and delivery that is completely free of throttling, capping, or interference from the mothership. The startup needs to be nimble and able to adjust on the fly to changing user/customer needs and adequately support what those users want to do.
Pay close attention to what your customer base and the general public with interest in your products are suggesting and requesting. And put priority emphasis on product/service support even if it hurts at first. There is nothing that I have ever encountered, experienced, or participated in that has more immidiate impact than that realized from from relentless, agressive, accurate, and personalized technical support.
The trend is a desire to be able to stream any/all content wherever/whenever a user wishes at reasonable speeds, aggressive pricing, and quality with the underlying method of delivery becoming less and less important to the bottom line - in effect, evolving organically into a "dumb pipe" with the differentiation being the qualities mentioned previously.
The company that can pull that off will have fanatical loyalty to match Apple that can be willingly monetized through additional services and premium content they can't get elsewhere...
JMHO Mike -- Returnil - 21st Century body armor for your PC | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  openbox9 join:2004-01-26 Alexandria, VA kudos:2 | Re: Watch a high definition film on our smartphones? Why? said by coldmoon:The first step is to aggressively reinvest profits back into the company to expand capacity and coverage. At the very least, this will provide room to grow as more adopt mobile services and the resources they need going forward. What's your definition of aggressive? The main players are investing billions of dollars each year and have been for several years.said by coldmoon:The next step is to spin off some startups from that revenue stream (controlled by the applicable carrier) to recruit talent and explore emerging models for content creation and delivery that is completely free of throttling, capping, or interference from the mothership. The startup needs to be nimble and able to adjust on the fly to changing user/customer needs and adequately support what those users want to do. Maybe I'm reading too much into your comment, but it looks like you leave the door open for net neutrality conflicts of interest. The "mothership" controls the subsidiaries that develop and distribute content but doesn't throttle/cap the delivery of that content? Is everything else fair game? Or are you implying that everything is left wide open?said by coldmoon:in effect, evolving organically into a "dumb pipe" with the differentiation being the qualities mentioned previously. Except for those wholly owned and managed subsidiaries?said by coldmoon:The company that can pull that off will have fanatical loyalty to match Apple that can be willingly monetized through additional services and premium content they can't get elsewhere... Hmm, I guess I'm not that bullish. If the carriers own, develop, control, and distribute the content, as I think I'm reading correctly, then they already have a fanatical following through necessity. I'm probably misreading you big time so my apologies if I am. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  coldmoonPremium join:2002-02-04 Broadway, NC Reviews:
·Windstream
| Re: Watch a high definition film on our smartphones? Why? The gist is that the delivery business is going to become a utility like electrical service in time. A better analogy may be the interstate highway system; no one company owns the roads, yet all use them in one way or another to compete and deliver their content to end customers.
This is not to suggest that the Government or a mega-corp should own the infrastructure, just that it will evolve to the point where it is irrelevant where an electron came from with the traffic and revenue balanced nation-wide. Whether the incumbents keep their feet in this part of the basic structure is also irrelevant as high profitability will come from the content and not delivery. Like electrical generation and supply, the basic structure will remain profitable, but will have slim margins.
quote: What's your definition of aggressive? The main players are investing billions of dollars each year and have been for several years....
Don't get caught up in the absolute numbers as it represents only a small fraction of their overall profits. What I am suggesting is far more. In fact, to the point where ALL profits are injected back into the spin-off businesses deemed to be successful and represent the core of future profits.
quote: Maybe I'm reading too much into your comment, but it looks like you leave the door open for net neutrality conflicts of interest.
No, that is why I mentioned putting up a wall where the start-up is relatively free of the mother ship. This is to prevent conflicts of interest while giving the start up room to breath and maneuver competitively. As long as there are strong rules and oversight that prevents the incumbent from abusing their ownership of network "x", their motivation then becomes making the delivery of the content as cheap as possible to maximize the profit of their cash cow spin-off businesses.
quote: Except for those wholly owned and managed subsidiaries?
Non-profitable and/or smaller networks would most likely be absorbed into larger, more efficient providers or collectives that can make a reasonable profit through economies of scale. This is also a good thing that will further reduce costs of transmission and maintenance of the underlying structure which in turn make it cheaper for the content providers to deliver their products and services to the customer with a higher profit margin.
quote: Hmm, I guess I'm not that bullish. If the carriers own, develop, control, and distribute the content, as I think I'm reading correctly, then they already have a fanatical following through necessity. I'm probably misreading you big time so my apologies if I am.
No, you are not missing the point if you include "control". If the incumbents have total control then there is too much risk for moral hazard. This is why there MUST be a wall at first so the start ups have a reasonable chance at being successful. Then the motive will be for the mother ship to move into the more profitable content creation end of the business and start divesting their overall interest in the delivery end of the spectrum which would be taken up by large, highly efficient utility providers.
JMHO Mike -- Returnil - 21st Century body armor for your PC | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  openbox9 join:2004-01-26 Alexandria, VA kudos:2 | Re: Watch a high definition film on our smartphones? Why? said by coldmoon:just that it will evolve to the point where it is irrelevant where an electron came from with the traffic and revenue balanced nation-wide. Whether the incumbents keep their feet in this part of the basic structure is also irrelevant as high profitability will come from the content and not delivery. I think we're already there. Minus the occasional peering dispute, I think traffic/revenue is fairly well balanced now. And content is where the money is. We see that with just about every price increase and every retransmission dispute.said by coldmoon:to the point where ALL profits are injected back into the spin-off businesses Investors want a return, so I doubt that you'll see all profits reinvested. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  coldmoonPremium join:2002-02-04 Broadway, NC Reviews:
·Windstream
| Re: Watch a high definition film on our smartphones? Why? said by openbox9:. said by coldmoon:to the point where ALL profits are injected back into the spin-off businesses Investors want a return, so I doubt that you'll see all profits reinvested. And this is where Entrepreneurial "spirit" needs to take hold as the investors are seeking instant gratification. The pressure from this direction however can have the effect of forcing efficiencies at a faster pace.
There is a high level of risk involved with what I am suggesting and some are going to fall by the wayside as the industry adjusts their business models. This too is a good thing as it will start weeding out the roadblocks to progress with cheaper services and products for the consumers while providing rarities that the industry can then cash in on -> win/win which is a strong basis for a successful business that grows and hires more people at the same time to meet the growing demand of the consumers.
Almost everyone wants or needs electricity at some point but none care where the power comes from, only that it is stable and arrives as required.
One thing to keep in mind here is that investment will not simply cease, it will just adjust to where the profits are and how well the vehicle meshes with their overall investment strategy. This means that even a "dumb pipe" provider will still have investments as do your local power companies. The difference is that like utilities, that profit will tend to be more stable and wall street loves certainty...
JMHO Mike -- Returnil - 21st Century body armor for your PC | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  openbox9 join:2004-01-26 Alexandria, VA kudos:2 | Re: Watch a high definition film on our smartphones? Why? Good luck in your utopia. I don't see investors (myself included) giving up on the nice returns that we get today when everything appears to be working just fine. Verizon was capable of deploying FTTH throughout a lot of its plant while still paying out healthy dividends on equity and rates on its bonds. If you remove those returns, you remove incentive for the investors to supply money. No money, no plant...unless you want customers to pay more for service than they pay now. Right or wrong, investors expect something for their money now, not 30 years from now. That's the world we've moved in to and I don't see us going back. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  coldmoonPremium join:2002-02-04 Broadway, NC Reviews:
·Windstream
| Re: Watch a high definition film on our smartphones? Why? said by openbox9:Good luck in your utopia. I don't see investors (myself included) giving up on the nice returns that we get today when everything appears to be working just fine. Verizon was capable of deploying FTTH throughout a lot of its plant while still paying out healthy dividends on equity and rates on its bonds. If you remove those returns, you remove incentive for the investors to supply money. No money, no plant...unless you want customers to pay more for service than they pay now. Right or wrong, investors expect something for their money now, not 30 years from now. That's the world we've moved in to and I don't see us going back. "Situations" have a way of changing and sometimes it happens quite unexpectedly. As an investor, I would be wary of the utopia the incumbents are trying to spin at the moment that involves the gravy train lasting well into the foreseeable future...
JMHO -- Returnil - 21st Century body armor for your PC | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  openbox9 join:2004-01-26 Alexandria, VA kudos:2 | Re: Watch a high definition film on our smartphones? Why? You can be way all that you want, but I'll continue enjoying my dividends. | |
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 |  |  |  |  |  |  openbox9 join:2004-01-26 Alexandria, VA kudos:2 | Re: Watch a high definition film on our smartphones? Why? The question involved HD video. One simply does not need HD video on a 3-4 inch screen IMHO. Had Karl left that attempted jab off of his editorial we wouldn't be having this discussion. | |
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 |  |  | | OOOOOOOOOOh, snarky, snarky... Isn't that 36 million unemployed at least? | |
|  |  |  antdudeA Ninja AntPremium,VIP join:2001-03-25 kudos:2 Reviews:
·RoadRunner Cable
| said by S_engineer:said by Romney2012:2nd - Who, while away from home and moving about, or at work, or at school has the time to watch a movie anyway? the 18 million unemployed citizens of this country! I watch a lot when not working.  | |
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 |  |  |  | | I agree that viewing HD movies on a small smartphone screen is counter-intuitive, but that is not the real issue or relevant set of use cases. (However, there are, and will be many more, wireless devices which do have larger screen real estate which support the benefits of better video resolution).
But consider the case of mobile apps in a frequent state of continuous interaction with a server -- such as, say, a GPS navigation system -- and which will have under the hood data interactions that manifest themselves in the updating of the display.
One of the big benefits of '4G' is the 'always on' aspect of the network -- something which users in Japan have had for a decade in the form of DoCoMo. Home and business internet connections are already 'always on', and a strategy of byte-metering mobile internet access will definitely seek to eventually do the same with terrestrial connectivity (and already has).
The fundamental constraint on wireless Internet bandwidth is in fact the current technology of the cells, and only secondarily the capacity of the network. Wireless cell technology has a limit to the amount of both connections and total bandwidth which a cell can support.
Next-generation cell networks will need to evolve to even smaller, neighborhood cell sizes in order to support increasing total bandwidth for an increasing wireless population size. That kind of infrastructure investment is where the carriers should be putting their time and energy, and not in trying to simply squeeze out more revenue by charging more for a stagnant infrastructure. | |
|  |  |  Romney2012Defeat Obama 2012-Chg we can believe inPremium join:2002-03-03 USA kudos:4 | Re: Watch a high definition film on our smartphones? Why? said by TahoeBlue:The fundamental constraint on wireless Internet bandwidth is in fact the current technology of the cells, and only secondarily the capacity of the network. Wireless cell technology has a limit to the amount of both connections and total bandwidth which a cell can support. I agree. And that is something many don't understand. They think the backhaul from a cell site is the constraint and not the wireless spectrum available to the cell tower. We always read from some that if the cell providers would just run more bandwidth thru fiber to cell sites all would be wonderful.
And the next complaint we read is that the cell providers are sitting on unused spectrum. But the unused frequencies are often not compatible with existing devices. So to make use of them will take a long time, including development of new radio chips and new phones. Just not fast enough for those who demand everything yesterday. | |
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 |  BF69Premium join:2004-07-28 Camden, TN | Well MMH Verizon has the NFL which allows the viewing of both Sunday Night Football and NFL Network games and NFL Redzone. These streams are far from HD, and even so and would definately exceed 2 GB. This why the NFL went with Verizon instead of at&t. Now sure maybe on would prefer to watch these games ona big TV but maybe one isn't at home. Or maybe one doesn't have access to NFL Network or NFL Redzone. | |
|  |  |  openbox9 join:2004-01-26 Alexandria, VA kudos:2 | Re: Watch a high definition film on our smartphones? Why? NFL chose VZW over AT&T because of a cap that didn't yet exist? More likely it had to do with VZW willingly throwing more money at the league. | |
|  |  |  |  BF69Premium join:2004-07-28 Camden, TN | Re: Watch a high definition film on our smartphones? Why? said by openbox9:NFL chose VZW over AT&T because of a cap that didn't yet exist? More likely it had to do with VZW willingly throwing more money at the league. And of course the NFL had NO clue at&t was going to impose caps? Offering the NFL on at&t with their cap and high overage would have been pointless. | |
|  |  |  |  |  openbox9 join:2004-01-26 Alexandria, VA kudos:2 | Re: Watch a high definition film on our smartphones? Why? It was still about the money. It always is. | |
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 |  Reviews:
·RoadRunner Cable
| said by Romney2012:This is the part I will never get, I guess. 1st - Who wants to watch HD movies on a smartphone with a 3" to 4" screen? 2nd - Who, while away from home and moving about, or at work, or at school has the time to watch a movie anyway? Truck Drivers! Most of us don't get to go home at the end of the day. I's not like we can run a phone or cable line behind us, And the truck stops that do offer wireless internet are so over loaded that most websites time out 3-4 times before you can view 1 page. | |
|  |  |  Romney2012Defeat Obama 2012-Chg we can believe inPremium join:2002-03-03 USA kudos:4 | Re: Watch a high definition film on our smartphones? Why? said by lucky178:said by Romney2012:This is the part I will never get, I guess. 1st - Who wants to watch HD movies on a smartphone with a 3" to 4" screen? 2nd - Who, while away from home and moving about, or at work, or at school has the time to watch a movie anyway? Truck Drivers! Most of us don't get to go home at the end of the day. I's not like we can run a phone or cable line behind us, And the truck stops that do offer wireless internet are so over loaded that most websites time out 3-4 times before you can view 1 page. Good point. May I suggest that a laptop with a bigger screen and a USB stick and an $80 10GB plan(verizon) may be a better fit than a smartphone with a low cap plan.
At&t has a 5GB dataconnect plan for $60 »www.wireless.att.com/cell-phone-···lans.jsp | |
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 |  | | I don't even see that as a point. The real problem is that 2gb and especially 200mb are designed to be low so people will very easily accidentally go over the limit and be charged outrageous fees.
The government needs to mandate that a cellphone will not go over your limit without first asking for permission and have updates every time another gb is reached. | |
|  |  |  See 11 replies to this post |
 | | Are we so sure Manjoo isn't an AT&T astroturfer? It's hard to believe anyone could be this dense. | |
|  |  rebus9 join:2002-03-26 Tampa Bay Reviews:
·RoadRunner Cable
·Verizon FiOS
| Re: Are we so sure Manjoo isn't an AT&T astroturfer? said by goalieskates:It's hard to believe anyone could be this dense. That's what I was thinking-- phone company shill.
Anyone who thinks giving up a flat-rate unlimited plan in favor of a capped plan that saves very little money (if you DON'T go over) or costs you a LOT MORE money (if you do go over) is either a flaming idiot, or he lives in AT&T's pockets. | |
|  |  |  | | Re: Are we so sure Manjoo isn't an AT&T astroturfer? I believe he is both. | |
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 JohnInSJPremium join:2003-09-22 San Jose, CA Reviews:
·PHONE POWER
·Comcast
| You might not need cellular data for that As crazy as it sounds, having been on unlimited plans with sprint for 8 years and hardly ever using more than 100MB a month, and since being on AT&T since June on the 2GB plan and an iPhone4, it really is quite enough data for when you're out of the near-ubiquitous wifi cloud.
But hey, that's just me. The $60/yr in savings pays for an extra 6GB should I just absolutely positively HAVE to watch 10 hours of HD video over 3G while somewhere with GREAT 3G coverage but no wifi. It hasn't happened yet.
If 4G is the new wifi, then they'll need to get those caps up. Until then, 3G isn't the best medium for all of us to be watching video. Or, and I know this is madness, you could just put the video on your device. -- My place : »www.schettino.us | |
|  |  See 6 replies to this post | |
 SnakeoilIgnore Button. The coward's feature.Premium join:2000-08-05 Mentor, OH kudos:1 Reviews:
·RoadRunner Cable
·magicjack.com
| IMO, it's all about the bennies. By putting low caps in, with high overage fees. The companies hopes that will prevent users from being hogs. By preventing/punishing hogs, the companies are able to keep older equipment in the field, instead of constant upgrades to increase the equipments abilities.
This also has the extra benefit of putting more money into the hands of the share holders and the company. -- To All Real Dads. For All Real Moms Every Real Service. | |
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 | | They can have my unlimited plan... when they pry it from my cold dead hands. Ever since I got my A2DP blutooth there is hardly a minute that goes by that Im not streaming Pandora or Slacker and Netflix. My data use would kill most plans. Ill never give it up. | |
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·Charter
| you wouldnt want to see my bill if I was on the 2 gig plan im grandfathered on the unlimited plan, and I can and do use wwaaaayyyy more than 2 gigs per month. I once used 15 gigs on mobile in one month. As an experiment, I shut my Iphone 3GS's wifi radio off for a whole billing cycle. Low and behold, I had used just over 15 gigs of data for that billing cycle. This is typical usage for me on the phone every month, and I would say that 80% of it goes over my own wifi, but still, point made. the "new" data plans are there for AT&T to make a ridiculous profit from the heaviest users, and even the mid line users. I challenge you to do the same. Shut your phones wifi radio off, and strictly use the cellular network for a whole billing cycle, and see how much data you use, if you dare. | |
|  |  BF69Premium join:2004-07-28 Camden, TN | Re: you wouldnt want to see my bill if I was on the 2 gig plan Yep it's sad that usng something like RADIO, let alone video, for a couple hours a day could put one over some cap. How sad is at&t infrastructre if it can't handle AUDIO let alone video. | |
|  |  | | On Verizon's 150 MB/mo plan, dare I would NOT. | |
|  |  JohnInSJPremium join:2003-09-22 San Jose, CA Reviews:
·PHONE POWER
·Comcast
| said by Chubbysumo:I challenge you to do the same. Shut your phones wifi radio off, and strictly use the cellular network for a whole billing cycle, and see how much data you use, if you dare. Don't have to - I can see the usage on the home wifi across all three iPhones. It's like yours. My home internet connection is also 10 times faster than the best speed I can get out of 3G.
I'm in a wifi cloud all day. Why the heck wouldn't I use it? It's always faster. -- My place : »www.schettino.us | |
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 DavidNow accepting new patientsPremium,VIP join:2002-05-30 Granite City, IL kudos:70 Reviews:
·AT&T Southwest
·DIRECTV
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·Google Voice
| Maybe me I am just flat out stupid... But watching an HD movie on a 3-4 inch screen doesn't seem appealing to me at all. Especially over a cell network. Now I could see doing it on a laptop and a datacard with cell network. But even then 3g isn't the best medium to do it on.
4G/wimax/HSPA+ -may be better for this, I can't say as I still have 3G here (for coverage reasons).
Wi-fi with a landline (cable, DSL, etc..) seems to be the best fit for netflix, and youtube videos.
I do agree that 3g can handle radio streaming like pandora, aol radio, and streamcast (shoutcast stream radio), as well as other small things. -- If you have a topic in the direct forum please reply to it or a post of mine, I get a notification when you do this. Koetting Ford, Granite City, illinois... YOU'RE FIRED!!
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|  |  See 7 replies to this post | |
 CPUYODA join:2003-01-25 Johnson City, TN Reviews:
·Comcast
| Doesn't anyone.... Rip and watch their own stuff anymore?...
I have all of the Looney Tunes dvds and I have them all ripped for my temporary entertainment on a 1G Touch.
So if I stay in a hotel,..I have Wi Fi,..and a pay per month cell phone I can easily replace if lost.
Sure it's two devices,...but there are advantages in avoiding these "data" plans if your savvy enough to rip and encode your own stuff ahead of time.
You always pay for convenience.....and these days,..your paying more at every turn. -- "In God We Trust,All Others Pay Cash" | |
|  | | Let's Accentuate the Positive @Karl, I'd love to see a positive proposal, since you've done a fine job of the negative evaluations.
Let's start with a textbook approach. Standard economic theory says prices are optimal to customers when marginal cost equals marginal price. Maybe you could take some SWAGs at the marginal cost of a 3G or 4G gigabyte.
I'll toss in some minor complications, say assuming a VERY uneven distribution of data needs throughout the day. (I.e., probably almost none between 1AM and 7AM; 40% of peak during the business day; peak usage 6PM to 10PM and a shoulder later into the evening.) Many users would be happy to time-shift to overnight, perhaps for downloading a video to watch the next evening, in exchange for a much lower cost and perhaps better guarantee against service interruptions while your car full of kids goes through a dead zone. No bakery is forced to sell day-old bread at a discount, but many find it smart business. Why not wireless ISPs?
I wouldn't want time-of-day and volume pricing to get too complicated. Some activity, say, SMS or e-mail, is both low volume and also can be useful with fairly high latency and so should be assumed to fit into the cracks and could be priced at zero for simplicity. (Gotta be some points for that!) So one of my distinctions would not be the current "voice vs data" but rather "hi vs lo latency" service. Skype or ordinary voice, with essentially equal costs, would price the same.
How about working up a model for real-world costs? And if I'm correct that pricing services correctly would draw the customers who get value without sucking up all the bandwidth, this would make for a wonderful competitor to the existing nets. | |
|  | | AT&T has a schill? The issue that most people have is the extremely draconian caps. 200MB is ridiculous. I'm not using my iPhone to stream anything, only for emails and social networking, and my usage is at least 400-500MB a month. The 200MB cap is just there for show, as AT&T knows most will be forced to sign up for the 2GB tier. In comparison, in Singapore, even the cheapest iPhone plans have 12GB data allotment, tethering INCLUDED! Yet here, in the US, we are so backward that were actually going downwards with the cap from unlimited to 5GB to 2GB/200MB, and we have to pay extra for the luxury of tethering. Laughable. Of course, we in the US are still paying to receive SMS. | |
|  |  Reviews:
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1 edit | Re: AT&T has a schill? 5GB cap always was, for data cards. They chopped unlimited for smart-phones to 2GB and 200MB. You can get with 200mb a month but not much. Some web browsing and emails without large attachments will go easily under 200 for a whole month. But with everyday mobile web browsing it would be hardly enough. Vzw even put lite plan for less - 150mb!
Its not too unusal for American consumers or public to get raped in many ways, more than most wealthy countries in the world.
Healthcare:
We pay a lot more for healthcare and get less than others. Doctors, pharmacist, government benefit a lot but not unfortunate patients.
There is a lot of uninsured Americans but guess how many Americans are underinsured which media don't talk about?
My last small company I worked for, offered pathetic PPO plan with $2500 deductible. Not much better than my own individual with $5000 deductible. Now I don't have job and I don't know how I will continue to maintain my better health insurance. Cobra's expensive. And I need to some serious medical test and cannot wait too long.
Education:
no 529, no large scholarships and grants except first year as a freshmen and some small merit and need-based in the next years. Loosed some amount of scholarship during first quarter because I was ESL before I could enroll into undergraduate, even though I am permanent resident alien.
My parents could not afford to pay for my college at all.
So what do I do? After 4 years I get $70,000 in all student loans total. I don't wanna live with that much on my own, so I live with parents for a while to try to pay more than half of this off in few years. Of course now, I am unemployed and looking for a job again so I can only afford to make minimum payments for now.
Housing:
In some countries, you just buy land for cheap, built your house and don't pay a dime for mortgage.
Unfortunately, here in the US and most western countries, mortgage is a main model. And you have to borrow $100-$300k to afford a decent housing. On top of that large property taxes. Thats quite a lot.
And of course we pay more for services such as cell phones, broadband but we are still more like in the middle of the bracket. | |
|  |  |  | | Loss Leaders [was: Re: AT&T has a schill?]
Commenters who know how much data SHOULD cost seem to consistently use the loss leader pricing and assume it will be the stable price.
Lots of businesses hold grand opening sale events to attract attention and get customers habituated to (hooked on) shopping with them.
AT&T, we have to remember, gave Apple unprecedented freedom in the iPhone pricing and control. They had an obvious and serious customer retention and PR issue in 2006/2007, and wanted a hot new product to help turn it around. They could/did NOT predict how intensively iPhone users would slurp data, but apparently operated under the assumption that without unlimited data, potential new users would have held back. So they gambled a bit on unlimited, to build their image as a leader in this new era.
Lo and behold, by 2008, AT&T indeed had changed the rules of wireless, and Verizon, heretofore one of the most aggressive nickel-and-dime pricers e.g., you had to pay (25¢?) to send a low-rez phone from your phonefound themselves without the hot product and at risk of losing their growth to AT&T.
An aggressive partnership with Google followed, including EVEN MORE free data (tethering) as one part of its competitive offering, given that early Androids had a weak app set, a slower, clunkier OS interface, and then, no actual advantage from Open-iness or Flashiness.
Sprint (then hemorrhaging customers faster than AT&T) and T-Mo likewise tilted their data plans toward staying in the game. Sprint upped the ante recently with a heavy emphasis on 4G.
Sometimes introductory prices attract enough users that your fixed costs spread thinly and by getting all the new customers you can keep your competitive edge with them. But more often, businesses raise prices back to the profit margins they think they can get while still growing. It's hardly surprising that if AT&T and Verizon are pushing plans with capped data, that the others will, too.
I'm no fan of any of the wireless providersI think that they bust their tails mostly devising new anti-competitive tricks to prevent the free market competition that they cite as reasons why the FCC should be shut down. But commenters here making up imaginary pricing arguments doesn't help direct informed users to demand clear, straightforward, reasonable and fair pricing.
PS to an earlier commenter who claimed AT&T was under-investing in its network to goose short-term profits: is there anybody in the country who has not heard about AT&T capacity issues, and so is less likely to sign with (more likely to depart) AT&T, costing AT&T growth and revenue? AT&T may indeed be under-investing but it would be the stupidest strategy imaginable, too incompetent even for the firm that has earned so many Americans' disrespect. Something else must be up. | |
|  |  |  | | Re: AT&T has a schill? To the best of my knowledge, you would have been better off becoming a U.S. citizen before applying for loans/grants. Be happy you only have $70K in student loans- you know as well as I do that many of your peers have a lot more to pay back than that in addition to being either unemployed or still on mom & dad's health care/rent scenario. | |
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 elray join:2000-12-16 Santa Monica, CA Reviews:
·SONIC.NET
·RoadRunner Cable
| UBB is inevitable, Fair Carriers are NOT looking for low caps and high overages. They know well how they'll lose customers with that approach.
But spectrum is finite, and if they don't apply either caps, "management", or throttling, then the data hogs will bring many locations to their knees, making the service useless for the occasional user. We've seen that clearly with Virgin, and certainly AT&T has had capacity issues.
$10/GB is not unreasonable for the average user, who consumes 2GB or less. Carriers would be smart to offer a graduated volume discount, so heavy users would not feel punished, but still would mind their use. | |
|  |  See 6 replies to this post | |
 ArchAngel21xWaiting For iPhone 5Premium join:2001-10-28 Lincoln, NE Reviews:
·Internet Nebraska
| Another Point Of View I wanted the $30 unlimited data plan, but I got my iPhone too late so I bought the cheapest plan at $15. I am spending half the amount I would have because ATT made me mad. Multiply that by however many other people got the cheapest data plan and try to tell me that news makes any investor happy.  -- MacBook Pro 2.6 Ghz (Snow Leopard/Windows XP) - iPad 16 Gig Wifi only (1st Gen) - iPhone 4 (32 Gig) | |
|  VanPremium join:2009-07-08 New Orleans, LA | The fact that he claims without ANY facts that people think the limits are "fair" and "reasonable" shows how utterly clueless he is
I have unlimited on my iPhone and blow past the 2gb monthly and I use very LITTLE video or streaming audio.
My iPad hits the 2gb cap monthly due strictly to several news feeds, emails, MAYBE a little Pandora streaming for barely 10-15 minutes if that, etc....
You go on just about every tech forum, blog, site, etc....and you find more and more people every month talking about how they are coming closer to the 2gb cap. Video has taken off, data usage through apps has taken off, etc....
The 2gb cap gets hit by average users like myself and just about everyone I know. No longer does the cap get hit by just "abusers" | |
|  |  elray join:2000-12-16 Santa Monica, CA Reviews:
·SONIC.NET
·RoadRunner Cable
| Re: The fact that he claims without ANY facts said by Van:that people think the limits are "fair" and "reasonable" shows how utterly clueless he is
I have unlimited on my iPhone and blow past the 2gb monthly and I use very LITTLE video or streaming audio.
My iPad hits the 2gb cap monthly due strictly to several news feeds, emails, MAYBE a little Pandora streaming for barely 10-15 minutes if that, etc....
You go on just about every tech forum, blog, site, etc....and you find more and more people every month talking about how they are coming closer to the 2gb cap. Video has taken off, data usage through apps has taken off, etc....
The 2gb cap gets hit by average users like myself and just about everyone I know. No longer does the cap get hit by just "abusers" The limits are "fair" today, based on the usage today. If carriers had large numbers of customers receiving overage penalties, they'd be in a world of hurt. Today's 2GB cap will grow to 2.5 or 3.0 within the year to accommodate nominal growth in data consumption.
Contrary to Karl's weekly/daily herald, while telco may be evil, they DO NOT WANT to punish customers. Instead, they want to suck you in to subscribing to the 2GB plan for 24 months that you actually don't use much of. They want the contracted rents without any demand. And on most "family" plans, they get just that.
You are not an average user. The average user doesn't approach 2GB (yet). Don't let the forum bubble mislead you.
I don't wish for you to pay punitive rates, but I'd be ok with you paying double for 10x the cap - 20Gb for $50, for instance, so long as there is still a cap in place, which prevents 400GB+ users from saturating the network (like they did on VM.) | |
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