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Matt
Gone playing Dragon Age Origins
Premium
join:2003-07-20
Jamestown, NC
 ·North State Commun..
| Re: The Future said by Chris 313  :With them being able to basically offer any speed/content they want with a few equipment upgrades, things make me wonder how Cable will compete. Cable will be fine for years to come as well. It's AT&T and Qwest you should worry about. Coax has a ton of life left in it and cable has the ability to run FTTH if necessary. While some cable operators are experiencing a bandwidth crunch, it's nothing like the crunch other providers are experiencing and technologies like DOCSIS 3.0 and Switched Digital Video will help.
You have to remember, when cable did their HFC upgrades 10-15 years ago, their last-mile network put their competitors to absolute shame. I would argue that aside from Verizon's FiOS product, it still does.
Something few people also mention, is that by the time cable (or even AT&T) decide to run FTTH, Verizon will have blazed that trail so the costs of entry will be substantially lower. All one has to do is look at how rapidly Verizon's cost to pass a home with FiOS have plummeted since it was rolled out to realize that in 5 years, it might make financial sense for the MSOs to roll out their own FTTH product. | |
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Chris 313
Come get some
Premium
join:2004-07-18
Houma, LA
clubs:
 ·Comcast
·Comcast
·Charter Pipeline
 ·Comcast Digital Vo..
·AT&T CallVantage
1 edit | Re: The Future said by Matt :said by Chris 313 :With them being able to basically offer any speed/content they want with a few equipment upgrades, things make me wonder how Cable will compete. Cable will be fine for years to come as well. It's AT&T and Qwest you should worry about. Coax has a ton of life left in it and cable has the ability to run FTTH if necessary. While some cable operators are experiencing a bandwidth crunch, it's nothing like the crunch other providers are experiencing and technologies like DOCSIS 3.0 and Switched Digital Video will help. You have to remember, when cable did their HFC upgrades 10-15 years ago, their last-mile network put their competitors to absolute shame. I would argue that aside from Verizon's FiOS product, it still does. Something few people also mention, is that by the time cable (or even AT&T) decide to run FTTH, Verizon will have blazed that trail so the costs of entry will be substantially lower. All one has to do is look at how rapidly Verizon's cost to pass a home with FiOS have plummeted since it was rolled out to realize that in 5 years, it might make financial sense for the MSOs to roll out their own FTTH product. Sure, but I was talking about in the long term. Say like 5-10 years when cable has been pushed to it's max in terms of equipment and all. What will they do? Run FTTH? Do you think providers like Comcast will have a FTTH plan on the desk as a backup plan or a possible prototype in an area or two?
Aside from that, I do believe cable will be fine for a while, though I'll always want faster, faster. Until you hit a button and have it there already with no waiting, it's never fast enough. I also believe D3 and SDV will help as well. I've seen and read all that Docsis 3 is doing and will be capable of thus far and I'm drooling for it.
I agree with you about how cable's last mile puts most providers to shame, aside from Fios, but they could also do a bit better since it is fiber.
I have AT&T here, and aside from Verizon cell service, there is no FiOS here and probably never will be. I'm not worried about them and think their U-Verse efforts are pathetic when Comcast can easily outdo them with Blast! and other speed tiers. Not to mention services like phone that they seem to be doing so well vs people like AT&T.
As for MSOs like Comcast running their own FTTH product, you bring up a funny thought. If Verizon's work drives down the cost of Fiber anything, Comcast is doing the same with Docsis 3, wouldn't you agree? | |
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Jmartz
join:2000-07-20
Tenafly, NJ
| said by Matt :said by Chris 313 :technologies like DOCSIS 3.0 and Switched Digital Video will help. That is assuming companies like Cablevision can actually get Switched Digital Video working correctly. Cablevision has still yet to release the infamous tuning adapter for Tivo users.
I personally think Cable Companies are going to have to change their compression to MPEG4. It's going to require them to swap out lots and lots of equipment, and cost them lots of money, but they can't keep compressing these channels so they look like crap. At least FIOS has all the same channels as cable/dish, but they don't have the compression yet. | |
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Chris 313
Come get some
Premium
join:2004-07-18
Houma, LA
clubs:
·Comcast
·Comcast
·Charter Pipeline
·Comcast Digital Vo..
·AT&T CallVantage
| Re: The Future said by Jmartz :said by Matt :said by Chris 313 :technologies like DOCSIS 3.0 and Switched Digital Video will help. That is assuming companies like Cablevision can actually get Switched Digital Video working correctly. Cablevision has still yet to release the infamous tuning adapter for Tivo users. I personally think Cable Companies are going to have to change their compression to MPEG4. It's going to require them to swap out lots and lots of equipment, and cost them lots of money, but they can't keep compressing these channels so they look like crap. At least FIOS has all the same channels as cable/dish, but they don't have the compression yet. Yes, I'm aware of the SDV problems Cable is having with things like Tivo, lucky for me, I don't have that problem as I've neither a Tivo, nor SDV rolled out in my area. I'm using a Motorola DVR supplied by Comcast. (I'm having strange problems with this box, so I see now why everyone is hating on them.)
I would say that they would have to change out a good bit of equipment, but that'd be natural progression since the boxes in use in areas are at least 4-5 years old. Makers would've had to come out with something newer or better that supports new things like MPEG4 or added feature goodies.
Take this for instance: »www.motorola.com/business/US-EN/···b00aRCRD
Though it does only support MPEG 2 in the specs.
As for FiOS, If I remember right, they're running on a cable system themselves. 870Mhz if memory serves. They also use boxes like this: »www.motorola.com/business/US-EN/···b00aRCRD
Still, these boxes only do MPEG 2 as well. | |
| | | | | ravensfan55
join:2008-06-16
Severna Park, MD | Re: The Future The newest QIP7216 boxes do MPEG-2 and MPEG-4. | |
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FXWG
Premium
join:2000-08-15
Harpers Ferry, WV
clubs:
| Re: The Future said by Chris 313 :said by ravensfan55 :The newest QIP7216 boxes do MPEG-2 and MPEG-4. Oh? Got specs, I'd love to see it. Here you go.
»www.motorola.com/Business/US-EN/···16_US-EN | |
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jmn1207
Premium
join:2000-07-19
Reston, VA | Re: The Future The problem is that unless every customer has an MPEG-4 capable set-top-box, both an MPEG-2 AND MPEG-4 signal would have to be sent out. That is certainly not going to happen any time soon. | |
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Matt
Gone playing Dragon Age Origins
Premium
join:2003-07-20
Jamestown, NC
·North State Commun..
| Re: The Future said by jmn1207 :The problem is that unless every customer has an MPEG-4 capable set-top-box, both an MPEG-2 AND MPEG-4 signal would have to be sent out. That is certainly not going to happen any time soon. Wouldn't switched digital video take care of that problem since signals are only sent "on-demand" so to speak? | |
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jmn1207
Premium
join:2000-07-19
Reston, VA
 ·Verizon FIOS
| Re: The Future Sure, but at this time that option would would still require expensive equipment upgrades. I don't think a firmware update to our current set-top-boxes would be enough. I remember there being some confusion about FiOS being a mini switched video system at the customers ONT when it first came out, but those rumors have been put to rest as FiOS went with a more traditional cable TV delivery solution so as to make use of relatively inexpensive and widely available equipment.
This is just stuff that I have read about here and there. I am no expert on this topic. Don't take any of this as gospel.  | |
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Matt
Gone playing Dragon Age Origins
Premium
join:2003-07-20
Jamestown, NC
·North State Commun..
| Re: The Future said by batterup :said by Matt :cable has the ability to run FTTH if necessary. Not in your lifetime. You have been able to order a direct fiber connection from Time Warner Business Class for years now and I've been told on a tour of a local Time Warner RDC and told that they can run fiber whenever they want, there simply isn't a reason for the expense yet. | |
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kamm
join:2001-02-14
Brooklyn, NY
 ·T-Mobile US
| Re: The Future said by Matt :said by batterup :said by Matt :cable has the ability to run FTTH if necessary. Not in your lifetime. You have been able to order a direct fiber connection from Time Warner Business Class for years now and I've been told on a tour of a local Time Warner RDC and told that they can run fiber whenever they want, there simply isn't a reason for the expense yet. Hahahaha, this is a good joke... have you ever compared the price of that so-called "TWC fiber" to VZ's FIOS prices?
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[BQUOTE=[user=bicker]]Waaaa waaaa waaaa. You just want what you want and don't care to factor in what is right or true. Your perspectives are un-American, and deserve far more ridicule than I'm prepared to pile on them.
[/BQUOTE] | |
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sherman10570
join:2000-10-15
Pleasantville, NY
·Verizon FIOS
| Re: Not so fast You are correct, it is taking Verizon some time to recover the cost of the install. I think they are still smart in performing this upgrade - replacing copper plant that is dozens of years old with fiber plant that will last them dozens of years moving forward.
Plus, they now have TV revenue (especially HBO/PPV) that they didn't have before.
- Sherman | |
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danclan
join:2005-11-01
Midlothian, VA
·Verizon FIOS
| And as those install costs drop the ROI drops as well. The profit margin per subscriber is higher. The ROI is shorter.
Their investment is already paying huge returns in the eyes of the customer. They are the top rated cable, phone and internet provider. The publicity is helping them secure subscribers even in a down market economy.
You also fail to recognize the SIGNIFICANT reduction in costs they achieve in not having to power and maintain copper. Electricity costs are climbing and every user off copper reduces their costs. Every mile of copper they dont have refurbish or repair...saves them money.
The likelihood of a miracle occurring in the coax space is slim. The only technology on the horizon is IPTV and switched video. Both of these are short term solutions and still do not address the long term crunch. DOCSIS is still only a short term fix and robs peter to pay paul....
Any significant breakthrough will still have to be backward compatible with the millions of devices already deployed. that will subsequently cost the cable co's millions. Meanwhile, Verizon only has to continue to provide updated offerings over their existing established infinitely expandable fiber medium.....it wont take a decade its already providing them reliability and savings and more importantly profitability. | |
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nycdave
Premium,MVM
join:1999-11-16
Melville, NY
·Verizon FIOS
| said by baineschile :The average price to run FTTH is $4000 per home. Obviously, Fios is a great product, and delivers what the consumer wants. What it means though, if the average fios arpu is $100, its going to take 40 months (of a customer not missing a payment or switching providers) to BREAK EVEN. we wont know if fios is truly a sucessful investment for at least another decade....when they have significantly more penetration in larger cities. if there is a discovery in the next few years that cable other copper telcos can take significant advantage of (e.g. 2ghz systems) at a low cost, then the fios investment wont look as pretty. It does not cost Verizon $4000 per home for FiOS..... | |
| | | | | | | | | MrSpock29
join:2008-02-09
Hammonton, NJ
1 edit | Re: Not so fast said by GOLFnSUN :said by nycdave :It does not cost Verizon $4000 per home for FiOS..... So, what does it cost? And please back it up with links that prove what you claim. »blogs.zdnet.com/Ou/?p=571
edit to add answer: $700 per home currently, they hope to reduce it to $650 in 2010. | |
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GOLFnSUN
Enjoy the sun
Premium
join:2002-03-03
Avalon, NJ
·Sprint Mobile Broa..
·Comcast
| Re: Not so fast said by MrSpock29 :said by GOLFnSUN :said by nycdave :It does not cost Verizon $4000 per home for FiOS..... So, what does it cost? And please back it up with links that prove what you claim. » blogs.zdnet.com/Ou/?p=571edit to add answer: $700 per home currently, they hope to reduce it to $650 in 2010. That certainly CLAIMS lowered costs. But no proof is supplied. All this is is the CLAIM of a blogger - hardly proof. He doesn't even reference company sources for his numbers.
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My BLOG .. .. Internet News .. .. My Web Page | |
| | | | | | | MrSpock29
join:2008-02-09
Hammonton, NJ
| Re: Not so fast said by GOLFnSUN :That certainly CLAIMS lowered costs. But no proof is supplied. All this is is the CLAIM of a blogger - hardly proof. He doesn't even reference company sources for his numbers. As Dave says, read the quarterly and annual reports. I don't have time now, but it has been much discussed on here about how much installation costs have declined. $4000 is way off the mark. | |
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GOLFnSUN
Enjoy the sun
Premium
join:2002-03-03
Avalon, NJ
·Sprint Mobile Broa..
·Comcast
2 edits | Re: Not so fast said by MrSpock29 :said by GOLFnSUN :That certainly CLAIMS lowered costs. But no proof is supplied. All this is is the CLAIM of a blogger - hardly proof. He doesn't even reference company sources for his numbers. As Dave says, read the quarterly and annual reports. I don't have time now, but it has been much discussed on here about how much installation costs have declined. $4000 is way off the mark. Here is a link to the quarterly report. Other than Verizon's claim of lowered costs to install, there are no hard numbers listed.
»yahoo.brand.edgar-online.com/dis···ype=html
As the deployment of the FiOS network gains scale and installation and automation improvements occur, costs per home connected are expected to decline. That is the extent of FIOS install costs mentioned in the report.
The annual report repeats the same info verbatim:
»yahoo.brand.edgar-online.com/dis···ype=html
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My BLOG .. .. Internet News .. .. My Web Page | |
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tim_k
Buttons, Bows, Beamer, Shadow, Kasey
Premium
join:2002-02-02
Stewartstown, PA
·Millenicom
 ·WildBlue
| Re: Not so fast Boy, you don't give up do you? From the intranet by Peter W. Thonis Senior Vice President of External Communications, talking about a blog that was bearish about FIOS.
"Based on our four years of experience deploying and selling FiOS, I thought I'd offer our own observation about the bear's view:
It's near-sighted.
Verizon's investment in FiOS was a strategic decision looked at from several perspectives. The Times' bear seems focused only on the short-term economics of the investment. Fair enough. But even at that, some of his underlying assumptions are wrong.
The facts are that our return on FiOS will exceed our cost of capital. When looking at the economics of the investment, we see significant financial benefits from maintenance expense savings, and we track three metrics we consider critical:
1. Capital costs
– We said our target per home passed was $700 by 2010, and we are ahead of plan to achieve that objective. In fact, we’ve already beaten the target.
– We said our target per home connected was $650 by 2010, and we’re on plan to hit that target.
2. Penetration
-- We said Internet penetration would be 35-40 percent by 2010 and we are on track to achieve that objective with a current penetration of 24 percent.
-- We said TV penetration would be 20-25 percent by 2010 and we already are at 20 percent so are now saying we will exceed 25 percent.
3. ARPU (average revenue per customer per month)
-- Our average revenue per subscriber is more than $130/mos and better than plan. For those with the triple play (a bundle that includes FiOS voice, Internet and TV) it is even higher.
Still, any analysis of today's economics gives only a partial view of the real value of FiOS to Verizon, our customers and our investors.
When we looked at FiOS, we looked not only at what was financially prudent today, but also where communications and entertainment technology was headed tomorrow -- and 10 years from now. We looked at how customer demands would change and grow. We even considered how regulators and policymakers might come to value the great potential of broadband to provide an economic stimulus to the U.S. economy, and perhaps even some solutions to our health care and environmental concerns.
In the near future, we see the benefits of having a converged set of products and services. We see new services that will drive additional revenues. For example, in our view, FiOS Internet is a natural replacement for outdated cable-modem technology, with fiber capacities better suited to handling streaming media and the burgeoning, bandwidth-intense applications being developed for everything from social networking, to gaming and entertainment, to work-at-home, education and health care. We also see wireless as a more feature-rich replacement to cable-based telephone services.
Our fiber network will create new uses. We didn't build it to provide plain old cable TV service. Instead, it's our view that customers will increasingly demand the types of wireless and fiber broadband services that are just now beginning to emerge."
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | MrSpock29
join:2008-02-09
Hammonton, NJ
| Re: Not so fast For me, Moffett and the NYT are not credible. I don't put a whole lot into either of them. Moffett has always been bearish on FTTH, and the NYT, is, well, the NYT. | |
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elbm
join:2000-08-03
Reisterstown, MD
·Verizon FIOS
| According to the report you linked to-- Verizon has fios built and available to 11.9 million homes. Verizon has spent 23 billion-- which includes construction to all 11.9 million homes and installation to all homes subscribing to fios. There is no break down in the report as to construction and installation monies or how many of there broadband customers are fios vs dsl.
The rough math is 23b/11.9= 1932.77 which is a sum that mixes passed and installed homes. My understanding roughly breaks down into 1500 per home passed in construction expense and roughly 1000 per subscriber to get them "hooked up". | |
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nycdave
Premium,MVM
join:1999-11-16
Melville, NY
·Verizon FIOS
| said by GOLFnSUN :said by nycdave :It does not cost Verizon $4000 per home for FiOS..... So, what does it cost? And please back it up with links that prove what you claim. No need. If you would bother to look at a VZ quarterly earnings report, the cost to build out is listed. The average cost to pass a single premises now is less than $1000... | |
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tim_k
Buttons, Bows, Beamer, Shadow, Kasey
Premium
join:2002-02-02
Stewartstown, PA
·Millenicom
·WildBlue
1 edit | said by GOLFnSUN :said by nycdave :It does not cost Verizon $4000 per home for FiOS..... So, what does it cost? And please back it up with links that prove what you claim. The cost to run the fiber through neighborhoods is also falling below $760 per home passed, Verizon’s initial estimate. (The company spends an extra $650 in equipment and labor to hook up each house ordering the service.) »www.nytimes.com/2008/08/19/techn···business
edit: I see some have beat me to it.
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RIP my babys Buttons 1/15/94-2/9/07 & Beamer 7/24/08, Buttons, Buttons video, Beamer
| |
| | | MrSpock29
join:2008-02-09
Hammonton, NJ
| said by baineschile :The average price to run FTTH is $4000 per home. Obviously, Fios is a great product, and delivers what the consumer wants. What it means though, if the average fios arpu is $100, its going to take 40 months (of a customer not missing a payment or switching providers) to BREAK EVEN. we wont know if fios is truly a sucessful investment for at least another decade....when they have significantly more penetration in larger cities. if there is a discovery in the next few years that cable other copper telcos can take significant advantage of (e.g. 2ghz systems) at a low cost, then the fios investment wont look as pretty. That MAY have been the cost years ago, but isn't even half that now.
You also forget that it is lower maintenance than copper, so money is saved on that end. It is also easier to upgrade. If you factored in all of the above, plus the fact that install costs are below half that now, you have a different story. | |
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jmn1207
Premium
join:2000-07-19
Reston, VA
·Verizon FIOS
| It was a desperate move by Verizon. They realized that DSL could not compete with cable, and they were quickly losing their POTS customers to cheaper VoIP solutions.
For residential services, the telcos were doomed unless they made some drastic changes. And without the benefit of having TV services and their own VoIP solution, they would not have been able to sustain the cost of providing FTTH. Internet service alone would not have been worth the required expenses.
Personally I am thrilled to see competition spring up practically overnight. I'm rooting for cable to shine as well as fiber. I don't care what technology is being used, just as long as it keeps improving. | |
| | | JPL
Premium
join:2007-04-04
West Chester, PA
·Verizon FIOS
1 edit | said by baineschile :The average price to run FTTH is $4000 per home. Obviously, Fios is a great product, and delivers what the consumer wants. What it means though, if the average fios arpu is $100, its going to take 40 months (of a customer not missing a payment or switching providers) to BREAK EVEN. we wont know if fios is truly a sucessful investment for at least another decade....when they have significantly more penetration in larger cities. if there is a discovery in the next few years that cable other copper telcos can take significant advantage of (e.g. 2ghz systems) at a low cost, then the fios investment wont look as pretty. There's one thing that's missed in the discussion of the numbers, though. Verizon said that when their roll-out of FiOS is complete (~2012 IIRC) they should be SAVING about $1billion/year in reduced maintenance costs. Even if they only hit half that, think of what that means year after year. Fiber doesn't degrade - copper does. Fiber isn't prone to atmospheric conditions and disruptions, copper is. About the only thing you can do to fiber to get it to stop working is to break it.
Also, FiOS is more than just about laying fiber to the home. When one tech came out I started asking about the system over all. When he figured out that I had more than a rudimentary understanding of it, he got into some details. The automation that's baked into the system is impressive. The ability to diagnose and fix many problems remotely, without the need for a truck-roll, is a big savings to the company.
Yeah it's a heavy up-front cost, but in the end, there are huge cost savings as a result. One last item on this front - copper is powered... the fiber isn't (well, it's not when it gets to your home). The signal doesn't degrade like it does with copper. Cable companies are therefore required to have boosting stations along the way to keep the signal strong when it gets to your house. That's not a problem that FiOS has. Also, Verizon doesn't supply the power for the sigals in your home - you do. Think of how many homes will be serviced by fios, and calculate how much that saves the company in electricity costs as a result. | |
| | | | Dolgan
Premium
join:2005-10-01
Sun Prairie, WI
·Verizon Online DSL
1 edit | Re: Not so fast The amount of savings in maintainence costs are purely speculative at this point. The only known quantity with reduction in costs is that fiber does not corrode/decay like the traditional copper lines, and is not succeptible to electrical damage. Fiber will still be affected by fires, line cuts, earthquakes, landslides, and etc. Less techs should be needed, and lower costs should be recoginized--the amount of savings is unknown yet.
You fail to factor in that Verizon is currently paying to maintain 2 networks{paying as little as possible for band aids to the copper network}, and will continue paying that cost for the forseeable future--well past your 2012 date of FTTP deployments ending. The initial FIOS rollout is expected to end in 2012 with a target of 50%+ of homes/businesses in Verizon's footprint to have been passed. The Execs plan to assess future deployment strategies/goals at that time. It will be partiallly based upon take numbers{saturation} and the costs of driving the product deeper into smaller/more rural areas. Do not know the target saturation numbers expected by that point, but would be confident enough to say 50%+ is reasonable. That being said, Verizon will still have customers on copper in FIOS capable areas in addition to having areas where FIOS has not been deployed. The Regulatory bodies will only be appeased for a limited time with Verizon's deployments of FIOS as an excuse for deteriorating network reliabilty for VZ copper customers.
We have seen a continuing trend of Verizon failing to meet standards of service in multiple areas, across the entire footprint we serve. This includes delayed orders, length of time to install new service, and length of time to repair Out of Service conditions. The biggest fines/outcry has been in the large markets on the East Coast {MA, NY, and FL reg bodies have come the hardest}, but the fines are also increasing in OH, MI, IN, and IL as well. This will force a larger investment to many parts of the network VZ has been ignoring[unless they are able to sell off some of the areas]. This will also add to the time before the full benefit/cost savings of FIOS/FTTP will be realized. | |
| | | | | JPL
Premium
join:2007-04-04
West Chester, PA
·Verizon FIOS
| Re: Not so fast I agree that those savings are speculative at this point. How can they be anything but? They haven't happened yet. My point is that you can't just look at the cost side of the equation - there's another side to it as well. You can't just look at the upfront cost, and assume everything else stays the same. It doesn't. There will be savings to be had with maintenance costs - whether it's $1billion/year or not remains to be seen, but even at a fraction of that it's still a very substantial savings.
Likewise, operational costs for fios should be lower than copper as well. I mentioned the fact that the fiber is unpowered getting to your house, and the fact that verizon doesn't need to boost their signal like cable has to.
Yes, it will be a while before they recoup the cost of FiOS, but given its popularity (they added more TV customers than anyone the last 2 quarters, e.g.), I think they're going to recoup them faster than many of these analysts anticipate. One other number that isn't talked about is their penetration rate. If I recall correctly, I think it's hit something like 20% for their TV service. That's pretty astounding - it probably needs to be higher than that, but it's been increasing steadily as well. | |
| | | 
Telalum
@visi.com
 from:
Core0000
| Interesting claim for cost per home. Is that a homes passed or homes served cost? What industry sources is the $4000 coming from? Obviously Verizon will not publish their exact cost. I can only speak as someone who was recently in the industry with peripheral access to actual costs by carriers. With that said, I can assure you that the cost per home passed and to serve homes has decreased dramatically within the past 3 years. So much to the point where your claims are no longer in the ball park. | |
| | | | JPL
Premium
join:2007-04-04
West Chester, PA
·Verizon FIOS
| Re: Not so fast said by Telalum :
Interesting claim for cost per home. Is that a homes passed or homes served cost? What industry sources is the $4000 coming from? Obviously Verizon will not publish their exact cost. I can only speak as someone who was recently in the industry with peripheral access to actual costs by carriers. With that said, I can assure you that the cost per home passed and to serve homes has decreased dramatically within the past 3 years. So much to the point where your claims are no longer in the ball park.
I think those numbers have to be wrong... or at least old. You're correct - the cost of fiber has dropped alot in the last couple years - it's a fraction of the cost, per foot, of what it was just a couple years ago. The installation cost per customer has also dropped (from what I'd heard, it's about 1/3 of what it was originally - don't know how accurate that is).
I'm guessing that $4k number is an average for running the fiber in a development, and then running the fiber to the home. But, as I said, I think those numbers are old. | |
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BF69
join:2004-07-28
Camden, TN
| said by baineschile :The average price to run FTTH is $4000 per home. Obviously, Fios is a great product, and delivers what the consumer wants. What it means though, if the average fios arpu is $100, its going to take 40 months (of a customer not missing a payment or switching providers) to BREAK EVEN. so? back in the old days it wasn't uncommon to expect somethig to to ten years or more to break even. WOW 3 years and 4 months. Ok let's loo 20 years down the road. that 240 months. So that's 200 months X $50 a month or more. That's $10,000 per house. Now take it 50 years, 75 years. | |
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baineschile
2600
Premium
join:2008-05-10
Sterling Heights, MI
·Comcast
·magicjack.com
·Verizon Wireless B..
| Re: Not so fast Forgotten costs:
when i claimed the 4000/unit, it was more than just laying a peice of fiber to the house. that number is a culmination of many different variants: retraining techs, physical fiber, new testing, equipment, and the biggest cost of all (lost in this whole thread); the cost of tv. remember, providers PAY most networks for the right to broadcast them; espn is at the top of the list @ $3 per subscriber. viacom, disney, grints....verizon had to sign multi-year contracts with all of these companies
the cost of deals that verizon had to make was monumental, and not included in the 23billion they claimed was the investment; most of that was physical fiber, and onts. | |
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jadebangle
Premium
join:2007-05-22
Olathe, KS
·SureWest Internet
·AT&T Yahoo
·Comcast
| Re: The Future said by Chris 313 :Fiber is the future. Verizon saw that when they started FiOS in the beginning. With them being able to basically offer any speed/content they want with a few equipment upgrades, things make me wonder how Cable will compete. I'm glad Verizon is weathering the recession and hiring people to keep up. This project that'll take years to complete will give tons of people their needed jobs. I think 2009-2010 will be a hell of a war in Broadband services. fiber need no maintenance, super fast and save the company lots of money
These saving will also cost us the consumer less and we have a win win situation. Just one time cost of installation will last an entire lifetime. No need to have a truckroll due to unhappy customer complaining about poor signal or connection problem | |
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Chris 313
Come get some
Premium
join:2004-07-18
Houma, LA
clubs:
·Comcast
·Comcast
·Charter Pipeline
·Comcast Digital Vo..
·AT&T CallVantage
| Re: The Future said by jadebangle :said by Chris 313 :Fiber is the future. Verizon saw that when they started FiOS in the beginning. With them being able to basically offer any speed/content they want with a few equipment upgrades, things make me wonder how Cable will compete. I'm glad Verizon is weathering the recession and hiring people to keep up. This project that'll take years to complete will give tons of people their needed jobs. I think 2009-2010 will be a hell of a war in Broadband services. fiber need no maintenance, super fast and save the company lots of money These saving will also cost us the consumer less and we have a win win situation. Just one time cost of installation will last an entire lifetime. No need to have a truckroll due to unhappy customer complaining about poor signal or connection problem Maybe the fiber itself needs no maintenance (Unless you count line cuts or things like that.) but I'm talking more about the equipment at the head end and things like that.
If fiber things really needed no maintenance, then why are they switching from the earlier BPON to the GPON equipment they're using now? Wasn't it fast enough to start with? | |
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jmn1207
Premium
join:2000-07-19
Reston, VA
·Verizon FIOS
| Re: The Future said by Chris 313 :If fiber things really needed no maintenance, then why are they switching from the earlier BPON to the GPON equipment they're using now? Wasn't it fast enough to start with? The current trend would suggest that BPON is fast enough. Otherwise, Verizon would have swapped out existing PON's, and they have not done this. They are only using GPON for new installs, as this is apparently a more cost-effective solution. | |
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tim_k
Buttons, Bows, Beamer, Shadow, Kasey
Premium
join:2002-02-02
Stewartstown, PA
·Millenicom
·WildBlue
| said by Chris 313 :If fiber things really needed no maintenance, then why are they switching from the earlier BPON to the GPON equipment they're using now? Wasn't it fast enough to start with? That is an upgrade, not maintenance.
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RIP my babys Buttons 1/15/94-2/9/07 & Beamer 7/24/08, Buttons, Buttons video, Beamer
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BF69
join:2004-07-28
Camden, TN | Of course they were wrong. Instead of thinking LONG term those greedy investors rather have had Verizon distribute that $23 billion to the stockholders. In the long term they'll be thankful that Verizon didn't listen to them. Short term never beats long term in the end. | |
| ITALIAN926
join:2003-08-16
Stratford, CT | $$$$$ Thats the problem with most investors.. they want returns FAST, rather than look at years to come. This long term investment alongside a great dividend is exactly why I buy up as much Verizon stock as possible. | |
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battleop
join:2005-09-28
00000 | Capt. Obvious runs the Yankee Group. "20 percent to 30 percent higher than DSL"
Well duh. They are delivering more than just Internet access. I would hope that they are making more money off of FiOS than DSL. | |
| | me1212
join:2008-11-20
Pleasant Hill, MO | Re: Capt. Obvious runs the Yankee Group. Me too if they give more they should get a bit more. | |
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blm
join:2007-10-18
USA | Someone needs to get their facts straight! NOT LAYING OFF.....ha, I wish that was the case, but it's far from the truth! Verizon FiOS is making budget cuts and laying off just like other corps. | |
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See 7 replies to this post | |
cobo6
join:2002-02-18
Willingboro, NJ | Investors not wanted to speed money Investors just want to keep their old technology in place and charge higher prices without speeding money on a new infrasture. | |
| | | | | RadioDoc
58ef2c0
Premium,ExMod 2000-03
join:2000-05-11
·AT&T Midwest
| Re: Investors not wanted to speed money You might want to revisit your understanding of stock ownership. The lion's share of most large corporations is owned by institutional investors such as insurance companies, mutual funds and pension funds. Except for a few notable exceptions, the "super rich" barely crack 5-10%.
If you own mutual funds, have a 401(k), a whole life insurance policy or even a savings account you are "these investors". | |
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IM1811
join:2001-08-20
Haverstraw, NY
·Verizon FIOS
| Reminds me of the War on Currents FTTH, or fiber to the home, is in direct competition with CABLE. Just like alternating current, or AC was to direct current or DC 100 + years ago. We know how that worked out!
Its all about competing in the marketplace, offering an alternative to the Money Grubbing, Capn' happy cable companies.
»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_Currents
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»www.bartgordon.net | |
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Steve Mehs
Go Sabres
join:2005-07-16
| Re: Reminds me of the War on Currents Well, despite what they marketing says, the FCC considers Verizon Fios a cable service, so Verizon is a cable company in the eyes on the FCC. And there isn't no bigger money grubbing company on the face of the planet then Verizon. Verizon is a terrible company that offers an over rated service. Verizon sucks, that is a fact.
As for MPEG 4, the next crop of Cisco digital set top terminals are MPEG 4 compatable.
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Don't Blame Me, I Voted For McCain
Welcome to The SSA, The Socialist States of Amerika, Lead By Your Dictator, Hussein Obama
Adolf Hitler, Joseph Stalin, Mao Zedong, Fidel Castro, Saddam Hussein, B. Hussein Obama
Obama = Terrorist | |
| 
Eat Me
join:2002-09-25
Sussex, NJ | Doesn't matter to me Not available here, and I'm not a VZ shareholder so it doesn't matter to me. | |
| | me1212
join:2008-11-20
Pleasant Hill, MO | Re: Doesn't matter to me +1 | |
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Just Visiting
@att-inc.com
| Verizon Income - another source Don't forget that when you cancel or change service (to a lower cost) that:
Verizon continues and continues to bill you for months.......and months.........
This is done with the "enhancements" to the billing system...
This will allow Verizon to pay for that fiber install | |
| | hernanu
join:2008-12-11
Medfield, MA
| Re: Verizon Income - another source Don't quite get that - the fact is that I'm going to have some sort of TV, internet and phone service. I am currently saving at least $100 / month in a FIOS plan, while getting great service on all three ends. I could care less if Verizon pays for the infrastructure for this great service from my subscription - seems to me we're both benefiting from it. | |
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batterup
I Can Not Tell A Lie.
Premium
join:2003-02-06
Netcong, NJ
clubs: | OMG Can it truly be? A truthful and honest post about TPC. If Ma Bell were still alive the people would still complain but every hog pen would have 100/100 at a government approved price. | |
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So Far, FiOS Nay-Sayers Proven Wrong
Verizon FIOS