 
jhboricua
ExMod 2000-01
join:2000-06-06
Minneapolis, MN
clubs: | I think its St. Louis Park in Minnesota, not Missouri There was a local article in the newspaper talking about this less than a month ago. | |
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pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
 ·Comcast
| More Taxpayer Fleecing $800,000 of hard-earned taxpayer money wasted so far and $3 million more needed?
That could have paid for a few police officers, teachers, road improvements, fire trucks, ambulances, and other things that a local government should actually be procuring. If there is any justice to be had from here, any elected official who approved this project should be made to personally work off all the money wasted here and return it to the taxpayers.
This is just more proof that any Internet service which requires even a single nickel of taxpayer money to be spent at any level should be banned outright.
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Only SHATNER is Kirk. | |
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jhboricua
ExMod 2000-01
join:2000-06-06
Minneapolis, MN
clubs:
| Re: More Taxpayer Fleecing Oh please, spare us the rethoric and your so call 'outrage'. Government has wasted even more taxpayer money in incentives and tax breaks for incumbents all over the country on broadband promises never delivered. $800,000 is a speck of dust.
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe." - Albert Einstein
Jose A. Hernandez * System Admin * MPLS, Minnesota, USA * | |
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pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
·Comcast
| Re: More Taxpayer Fleecing said by jhboricua  :Government has wasted even more taxpayer money in incentives and tax breaks for incumbents all over the country on broadband promises never delivered. There's a huge difference between a tax break and an outright payment by a government. Someone had to decide how to spend that money. Clearly, it should have been spent on something else.
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Only SHATNER is Kirk. | |
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jhboricua
ExMod 2000-01
join:2000-06-06
Minneapolis, MN
clubs:
edit:
January 24th, @04:35PM
| Re: More Taxpayer Fleecing said by pnh102 :There's a huge difference between a tax break and an outright payment by a government. When the reason behind both don't materialize there is no difference to the taxpayer. Except in this case the city can tell Arinc to get lost. They can't realistically to that to the incumbents.
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe." - Albert Einstein
Jose A. Hernandez * System Admin * MPLS, Minnesota, USA * | |
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pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
·Comcast
| Re: More Taxpayer Fleecing said by jhboricua :Except in this case the city can tell Arinc to get lost. The taxpayers are still left holding the bag here. Where is the accountability?
said by jhboricua : They can't realistically to that to the incumbents. It shouldn't make any difference which company is involved here. If my town had spent $800K hiring Verizon to do the same thing and they screwed up, I would be just as shillful.
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Only SHATNER is Kirk. | |
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sporkme
drop the crantini and move it, sister
Premium,MVM
join:2000-07-01
Netcong, NJ
| said by pnh102 :There's a huge difference between a tax break and an outright payment by a government. Someone had to decide how to spend that money. No, there's not a difference when you're the taxpayer that's not getting the tax break (which is most people in this country). | |
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| | | Dilligas
join:2007-10-30
Windsor, ON | On the topic of wasted money by gov officials, lets see the IRAQ war! End of story! | |
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rit56
join:2000-12-01
New York, NY | so you're in favor then of local governments not granting Verizon tax breaks and sweetheart deals anymore? they should finance everything 100% on their own right? no breaks, no deals, no restricted build outs? . | |
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jhboricua
ExMod 2000-01
join:2000-06-06
Minneapolis, MN
clubs:
edit:
January 24th, @03:53PM
| Re: More Taxpayer Fleecing said by rit56 :so you're in favor then of local governments not granting Verizon tax breaks and sweetheart deals anymore? they should finance everything 100% on their own right? no breaks, no deals, no restricted build outs? . Of course he's not. Have you seen the thread on NYC FIOS. Over there his outrage is about how 'government is holding progress back' by not letting his master do whatever they want with NYC. Go the Lafayette LUS related threads and he's bashing them too for no reason other than it is not a incumbent deployment but one done by the city. It's pretty clear what his real motivations are, which is why I find it so funny that he comes to this thread to state how this wasted money could have been used for teachers, policeman, etc... it reeks of hypocrisy.
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe." - Albert Einstein
Jose A. Hernandez * System Admin * MPLS, Minnesota, USA * | |
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pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
·Comcast
| said by rit56 :so you're in favor then of local governments not granting Verizon tax breaks and sweetheart deals anymore? they should finance everything 100% on their own right? no breaks, no deals, no restricted build outs? . You already know the answer to this so there's no need to repeat myself.
What does Verizon have to do with this situation?
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Only SHATNER is Kirk. | |
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| | | SilverSurfer
join:2007-08-19
| Re: More Taxpayer Fleecing said by pnh102 :What does Verizon have to do with this situation? That you're a telco shill, of course. | |
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| | | | fiberguy
My views are my own.
Premium
join:2005-05-20
| Re: More Taxpayer Fleecing .. and I agree with him, so I must be a telco shill now too. ... and to think, all this time, I was a Cable shill.
The internet is not something that the tax payers need or should be paying for. It's not cheaper in the long run and if you really wanted to have better internet, as a city planner, I'd be working with the incumbents AND not being loose and irresponsible like everyone else in the past has with them.
When the taxpayer, that's us in case you don't know, put out this kind of money to fund and internet project, AND then you get to pay a monthly rate ON TOP OF THAT for services (which usually aren't much better than the incumbent) and you ALSO get to subsidize the upkeep of the system - how good of a deal was it considering the speeds and services aren't much better, if not worse?
Shill? ok. | |
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jhboricua
ExMod 2000-01
join:2000-06-06
Minneapolis, MN
clubs:
| Re: More Taxpayer Fleecing said by fiberguy :The internet is not something that the tax payers need or should be paying for. Your personal opinion.said by fiberguy :It's not cheaper in the long run And this blanket statement is based on?said by fiberguy : and if you really wanted to have better internet, as a city planner, I'd be working with the incumbents AND not being loose and irresponsible like everyone else in the past has with them. You obviously have never worked in such capacity if you think you can make such an absurd statement.said by fiberguy :When the taxpayer, that's us in case you don't know, put out this kind of money to fund and internet project, AND then you get to pay a monthly rate ON TOP OF THAT for services (which usually aren't much better than the incumbent) and you ALSO get to subsidize the upkeep of the system - how good of a deal was it considering the speeds and services aren't much better, if not worse? Pulling more fluff our of your rear I see. But we expected nothing less from industry shills. Go ahead and tell the Utopia users their service isn't much better than Qwest DSL. Just duck when they snort your way.said by fiberguy :Shill? ok. Looks like it.
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe." - Albert Einstein
Jose A. Hernandez * System Admin * MPLS, Minnesota, USA * | |
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| | | | | | fiberguy
My views are my own.
Premium
join:2005-05-20
edit:
January 24th, @11:46PM
| Re: More Taxpayer Fleecing Where do you buy your talking points? or.. does it come with your membership dues to the utopia society?
Besides, hasn't your side always been against subsidies for the telephone company? .. and that IS a utility. But, since it's something that YOU deem to be a necessity, you'd be ok with handouts from the public?
It's always nice to bring hypocrisies to the forefront.
Thanks, but I'll spend my money that way I see fit.. not the way you, and others, do. You want internet.. pay for it. I'll continue to pay the $42 a month for my 8/1 line I have now and not $42 or more for a lesser service and then all the taxes tacked on to the top so some government agency can tell me what kind of content I can or can't view which governments in CA have already tried not including the libraries. | |
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| | | | | SilverSurfer
join:2007-08-19
| said by fiberguy :.. and I agree with him, so I must be a telco shill now too. ... and to think, all this time, I was a Cable shill. Actually, I stand corrected. You aren't a shill as shills tend to occasionally have original thought processes. You clearly demonstrated that you don't have that ability here. You're just another follower who swallows any load big business rams down his throat. | |
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pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
·Comcast
| Re: More Taxpayer Fleecing said by bent :There is PLENTY of precedent for municipalities providing all sorts utility service. And it is all wrong.
said by bent :If you're in the camp that views broadband as a luxury service ... Of course it is. People can and have lived without it.
I like how you put in your signature a reference to the famous quote by Thoreau, but you advocate government providing a luxury service to people at the same time. I highly doubt any true libertarian would be in favor of any sort of government-provided luxury communications service.
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Only SHATNER is Kirk. | |
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bent
not broken
Premium
join:2004-10-04
Longmont, CO
clubs:
·Comcast Formerly ..
| Re: More Taxpayer Fleecing No, but I might advocate a municipal utility service that would allow business growth and expansion for the foreseeable future, rather than letting corporate greedheads cripple economic development by letting VDSL and DOCSIS be the future of broadband in America.
By your argument, electricity, sewer, water, and refuse services, all frequently owned and operated by The People, are luxuries. Go live in a cave.
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»www.lp.org/issues/family-budget.shtml
"That government is best which governs least" - Thoreau | |
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Work
@charter.com
| you know..the same was said of telephone services, electricity, running water, gas heating, air conditioning in hot regions of the country, 911... the list goes on. yes, it starts as a luxury, but as it proliferates into the fabric of society and becomes integral it becomes a utility. how about you go without your cable, telephone, 911 service, heat, electricty, and running water for a few months too. After all, "People can and have lived without it" | |
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| | fiberguy
My views are my own.
Premium
join:2005-05-20
| said by bent :Shameless Shill. A term thrown at someone when they have nothing better to say.
There is PLENTY of precedent for municipalities providing all sorts utility service. Most often these infrastructure builds are funded by the issuance of bonds which are paid back out of the revenues the services generates. Please provide a list of these providers which have and are turning a profit TO pay off these bonds..
If you're in the camp that views broadband as a luxury service, you should check into... I am one of those too. Until society has "legally" proclaimed the internet a utility, it remains a luxury. We are, after all, a nation of laws and we go by those laws.. not by what ever fits the individual's desire at the time.
Save the astroturfing for grandma dial-up who still buys it.
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bent
not broken
Premium
join:2004-10-04
Longmont, CO
clubs:
·Comcast Formerly ..
edit:
January 24th, @08:20PM
| Re: More Taxpayer Fleecing Rather than make a rats nest of quotes, I'll simply go down the list one at a time.
1. I think what I'm saying is topical and clear. If you disagree, it's probably because you're unwilling to bite the hand that feeds. Am I far off?
2. The Platte River Power Authority. Since you didn't specify that it needed to be a muni residential broadband provider, I'll just provide a link for my local power utility, who, by strange coincidence, has built a nice fiber ring not only throughout the communities it serves but regionally as well. All this without spending tax dollar number one. If you doubt their profitability, you'll need to look at the financials. PRPA unfortunately don't provide retail services, and I don't know very many residential customers in the market for an OC48.
The problem comes when the local utility companies think about using existing rights-of-way to deliver service at the retail level, in competition with Qwest and Comcast (who only offers 3 HD chanels we can't get over the air here  ). They get hamstrung at every corner by protectionist politics funded by super-regional and national corporations, and are forced to turn to half-assed wireless solutions that invariably run into trouble for several reasons; mostly underfunding and mismanagement of the private companies contracted to build and operate them and the obvious inferiority of broadcast wireless vs. glass and plastic in the ground.
3. In these cases, it's obvious that the laws are bought and paid for by incumbents whos only motive is profit. Delivering future (much less current) technology is only a priority when it seems that someone else might gain a competitive edge that they haven't been able to legislate away.
I've sold services door to door for both cable companies and ILECs across the western US, and I can say with full confidence that if I could offer a full HD and NTSC channel line up, 20meg symmetrical data, and voice, at competitive prices, (something a fiber ring like ours is BUILT to do) I'd stomp Qwest and Comcast's dicks in the dirt at every pass.
Where is the freedom when we let giant corporations play profit games with our futures by legislating out any competition that isn't already entrenched and committed to the same mediocre standards of service?
Edit for typo
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»www.lp.org/issues/family-budget.shtml
"That government is best which governs least" - Thoreau | |
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jhboricua
ExMod 2000-01
join:2000-06-06
Minneapolis, MN
clubs:
| said by fiberguy :Please provide a list of these providers which have and are turning a profit TO pay off these bonds.. Almost all of these ventures are very young and only a few have reached full deployment and you know that. Making such a ridiculous request only furthers the notion that you're a shill.
Has Verizon turned profit on their FIOS deployment?
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe." - Albert Einstein
Jose A. Hernandez * System Admin * MPLS, Minnesota, USA * | |
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| | | | fiberguy
My views are my own.
Premium
join:2005-05-20
| Re: More Taxpayer Fleecing Yea.. you really proved I'm a shill.
let me turn it to you this way in return.. show me a good history and track record of anything government does that often pays for itself with out having to go back the tax payers over and over and over again to keep it going.
Funny.. if I'm a shill, you're socialist. | |
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| fiberguy
My views are my own.
Premium
join:2005-05-20
| You are 100% correct in what you say! There is only, however, one exception I'd sway on a little and that is that this just outlines the importance of paying attention to who you vote for.
Those involved are the mouth pieces of "we the people" for St Louis Park and the people got what they elected. He should/will surely pay the price when he asks the people for the grace of keeping his/their job.
I wonder what wedge issue the people voted for to put these people in office? (tongue in cheek off) | |
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factchecker
@cox.net
| Yes, let's completely ignore the fact that the private company was the one who screwed up here, not the local government, by poorly designing and implementing their setup...
And that is where the buck stops - Private enterprise screwed this pooch. | |
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natter
join:2000-12-18
Littleton, CO
| Providing Internet to the public is a RIGHT and not a privilege! I don't care how much it costs us, my grandmother needs free wifi so we need to raise taxes and also increase the taxes on hotels so we discourage business travel. Also, we should the tobacco smokers some more....
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Jonbo298
join:2004-01-12
Council Bluffs, IA
| Sue! Sue! Sue! I hope Arinc has to pay back every dime spent on this project. It's bluntly clear Arinc didn't know what they were doing. After reading the whole article, made it more clear they were very half-assing this.
I guess going to the lowest bidder isn't always the best suggestion. Maybe some cities will learn from this. | |
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pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
·Comcast
| Re: Sue! Sue! Sue! said by Jonbo298 :I hope Arinc has to pay back every dime spent on this project. Keep dreaming. If Arinc is financially strapped and smart, they will conveniently declare bankruptcy and they can put this whole incident behind them.
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| patcat88
join:2002-04-05
Jamaica, NY
| said by Jonbo298 :I guess going to the lowest bidder isn't always the best suggestion. Maybe some cities will learn from this. Never, they are required to accept the lowest bid that meets their published specifications, otherwise they will be sued by special interest groups/local citizens funded by incumbant operators (Lafayette fiber, and countless other lawsuits). | |
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| | Jonbo298
join:2004-01-12
Council Bluffs, IA | Re: Sue! Sue! Sue! Yeah, 'tis the unfortunate truth | |
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timcuth
Braves Fan
Premium
join:2000-09-18
Pelham, AL
clubs: | Like they always say, .... you get what you pay for.
Tim | |
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rit56
join:2000-12-01
New York, NY
| solar wireless the company hired to do this are a bunch of idiots. apparently they didn't do any research. I see highway phones all over NY State that are solar powered that work fine because the company which received the contract from the government made sure they had a clear line to sunlight. pnh 102 you are a pretty funny guy. kinda one dimensional actually. | |
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bassjunky
join:2005-05-12
Aubrey, TX | Well... I guess they stuck it where the sun don't shine... | |
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jbob
Reach Out and Touch Someone
Premium
join:2004-04-26
Little Rock, AR
·Comcast
 ·AT&T Southwest
| Fix it Rather than sue Arinc to remove this work they should sue to get them to honor the contract and make it work as per the contract. If it costs Arinc more so be it. Unless of course the contract is not well written which I guess might be the case. I used to deal with Arinc with them as a military contractor. | |
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caddyroger
Premium
join:2001-06-11
Graham, WA
·Comcast
| Re: Fix it said by jbob :Rather than sue Arinc to remove this work they should sue to get them to honor the contract and make it work as per the contract. If it costs Arinc more so be it. Unless of course the contract is not well written which I guess might be the case. I used to deal with Arinc with them as a military contractor. They can out of it all the have to is file bankruptcy.
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KoolMoe
Aw Man
Premium
join:2001-02-14
Annapolis, MD
clubs: | Re: Fix it ARINC is a complex company. That company filing bankruptcy isn't quite as 'easy' as it may be for others.
KM | |
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mikenolan7
Premium
join:2005-06-07
Torrance, CA | Light of Day If the original bid was $1.7 million, how can it cost $3 million to complete. Replace your transceivers. This time, look up. If you are under a tree. Move over. | |
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jhboricua
ExMod 2000-01
join:2000-06-06
Minneapolis, MN
clubs:
| Re: Light of Day said by mikenolan7 :If the original bid was $1.7 million, how can it cost $3 million to complete. Replace your transceivers. This time, look up. If you are under a tree. Move over. I don't know dude. I drove the other day by St. Louis Park and saw one of those contraptions on a STOP sign pole. They are absolutely hideous and as a homeowner I wouldn't want one in front of my house.
Minneapolis and US internet are doing a much better job on their WI-Fi deployment and you really don't notice the WI-FI antennas unless you're specifically looking to find them.
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe." - Albert Einstein
Jose A. Hernandez * System Admin * MPLS, Minnesota, USA * | |
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| patcat88
join:2002-04-05
Jamaica, NY
| said by mikenolan7 :If the original bid was $1.7 million, how can it cost $3 million to complete. Replace your transceivers. This time, look up. If you are under a tree. Move over. How many engineers does it take to do that?
-arborist to identify its a tree
-physicist to figure the amount of sun going through the leaves, plus figure out when shadow hits the wifi pole
-statiscian to calculate how long the battery will last
-electrical engineer to say how long the battery can last
-building permit for new location for pole
-building inspector for concrete
-material science engineer to sign off on the concrete being used for the pole
-network analyst and another statiscian to see if change in location will affect service levels, and routing, and if another pole needs to go up
-another electrical engineer to see if the RF coverage of the pole has change and compute link budgets for backhaul, needs network analyst to tell him how the links must be
-contractor to dig hole for pole
-trucking company to bring new pole
-crane to lift new pole
-lawyer to get clearance for new pole location
-surveyor to mark location of new pole
-landscaping to repair scare of new and old poles
-some towns require police details, some will require you rent the town's chopper for the detail (make sure no terrorists will disrupt the pole mode)
-road flaggers
-RF coverage guys to check coverage of new poles (dont worry, electrical engineer already made the estimated coverage)
-if EE, and Network guys dont approve of pole location, back to step 1
-marketing to get new test users for the new pole
-public feedback/public research/focus groups to figure if the pole's coverage serves the customers needs
-drilling contractor to take dirt core samples around new pole site
-utility markers to mark utilities around new pole site+having utility companies move the utilities
-geologist(right word?) to write report on core samples
-hydrologist to see if water will wash pole away
-traffic engineer to see if pole will be mesmerizing to drivers who see if and therefore drive into it
-traffic lawyer to see if it matches state and local driving laws (no districting things on it (legal definition, and scientific/behavioural are different))
Should I go on? | |
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| mikenolan7
Premium
join:2005-06-07
Torrance, CA
 ·Sprint Mobile Broa..
·RoadRunner Cable
| There is a business principle called "the curse of the low bidder". It goes basically like this: if you enter into a business where you competitively bid against multiple suppliers, with cost being the only differentiator, if you win, you lost. If everyone is meeting the requirements, and you are the low bidder, you probably underbid the cost of the project. If you underbid the nearest competitor by 29%, you really screwed up.
City planners are supposed to know this to avoid this sort of fiasco. If someone bids that low the city must make certain that the bid meets all of the requirements, and that the bidder is capable of completing the job. My first post was meant to point out that both sides weren't very intelligent here. It's a park in Minnesota, neither side worried about trees? | |
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Spooky_ET
@bellsouth.net | Cheap bastards That's what you get for being cheap. | |
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sancraig
join:2003-11-05
Saint Louis, MO
·Charter Pipeline
| Specifications I see a lot of city, county, and state specifications that are incorrectly written by engineers. I would assume this company is not being sued for damages, because they followed the specs and have a legal out. Otherwise the city would have drug them to court already. | |
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Lowtarget
15Mbps Roadrash
Premium
join:2003-12-22
Alger, OH
clubs:
·RoadRunner Cable
| Re: Specifications I wounder if a person from the towns board. Was looking over the company that was installing the hardware. To make sure they was placing them in the right spots. If not, I say its towns fault too in a way.
Since no body was watching while it was being installed. I dont know about other people. But if I'm spending money on something. I'm sure going to be watching it being done. | |
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james1
join:2001-02-26
antarctica | Lowest bidder. There is the OBVIOUS problem with giving contracts to the lowest bidder. the fact that it was almost a full third less than the competitor should have tipped them off. | |
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Madness
....Bottles of Beer
join:2000-01-05
Quincy, MA | Pun? Was this title supposed to be a good pun? | |
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Solar Wi-Fi Service Won't See Light of Day
