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Sonic.Net Cooking Up Line Bonded ADSL2+
New 30Mbps ADSL2+ tier in the oven...
by Karl Bode 08:33AM Friday Jul 31 2009
For those companies who've sadly decided to milk copper (or have no financial choice), line-bonding is one way to grab additional bandwidth at greater loop lengths out of both ADSL2+ and VDSL. It's something both Qwest and AT&T are eager to begin implementing next year, and Dane Jasper, CEO of California ISP Sonic.net, tells us they're having good luck with ADSL2+ bonding in the labs and in employee trials. The company started offering ADSL2+ service over their own network last fall, offering tiers in 6Mbps, 8Mbps and 18Mbps flavors.


The CEO says this week they've demonstrated ADSL2+ connection speeds of 46Mbps downstream and 4.8Mbps upstream in a lab environment, on a short copper loop. In a blog post, the CEO admits that these aren't speeds customers will see in the real world, but that Sonic does have 30Mbps service working at employee homes and will launch the tier soon. More technical specifics from Jasper:
quote:
Two pairs of telephone wire were used in the test to deliver a bonded (double pair or four wire) ADSL2+ link, with Annex M (double upstream) capability turned on. Actual FTP transfer speeds were demonstrated at over 42Mbps upstream and 4.5Mbps outbound after overhead. We are working on the wrap-up of product design and pricing for our new pair bonded Fusion products, and we plan to announce the details shortly.
Dane's one of the few industry CEOs you can find wandering around our forums directly answering consumer questions on any given day. You can also check out our users' Sonic.net reviews here.

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topics flat nest 

astokes

join:2000-08-11
Bangor, ME

ADSL2+ distance limitations

It all looks nice on paper but when it comes to the real world only a very small percentage of their customers will get anywhere close to a 30 meg connection. Though the better uploads with Annex M looks nice.

Duramax08
To The Moon
Premium
join:2008-08-03
San Antonio, TX

Copper is everywhere

Might as well milk it. Well atleast in rural areas.

iLive4Fusion
Premium
join:2006-07-13

Re: Copper is everywhere

said by Duramax08:

Might as well milk it. Well atleast in rural areas.
I wish they would just deploy it in rural area's.
--
I get 29 MPG in my Toyota Highlander Hybrid!

Duramax08
To The Moon
Premium
join:2008-08-03
San Antonio, TX

Re: Copper is everywhere

True. Hopefully this broadband stimulus will help out.
unoriginal
Premium
join:2000-07-12
San Diego, CA

Who handles the copper line repairs?

Sonic may be using their own backend network but still need AT&T copper for the service. Who handles repairs for the lines since Sonic is offering essentially dry line dsl over the phone lines?
iansltx

join:2007-02-19
Austin, TX
kudos:2

Re: Who handles the copper line repairs?

I suppose Sonic pays AT&T enough for those dry lines that AT&T will repair them when something goes wrong.
hottboiinnc
ME

join:2003-10-15
Cleveland, OH

Re: Who handles the copper line repairs?

until ATT decides to pull out the copper and do FTTH or toss in their VARDs to reduce the loops. Then Sonic is screwed.
iansltx

join:2007-02-19
Austin, TX
kudos:2
Reviews:
·Time Warner Cable
·Verizon Online DSL

Re: Who handles the copper line repairs?

At which point SOnic will probably resell AT&T VDSL/FTTH. Though realistically AT&T will rely on VDSL for another 3-5 years. Also, I may have underestimated Sonic's position...I think they're actually a facilities-based CLEC, so their ADSL2+ will be sticking around for awhile.

I'm in an area where the highest-upload internet in a 100 mile radius is 3 Mbps up, so Sonic will actually have some competitive upload speeds compared to many places.
hottboiinnc
ME

join:2003-10-15
Cleveland, OH

Re: Who handles the copper line repairs?

ATT isn't reselling SHIT on their new network. They got what they wanted with getting rid of the copper and all the resellers. That's why you can't get Dryline DSL with many small town ISPs ATT took it from them as well. The same as the new network.

T1s have tripled in areas that have gone to the FTTH systems when it was SBC in trials.

Also what happens when ATT starts doing FTTN? and all the coper starts to go? Sonic is gonna be SOL but we'll hear how ATT is the evil on getting rid of the copper because Sonic should be allowed still to lease it.

Instead of spending the money to become a CLEC they should be worried about building out their full network. Maybe FTTH in HOAs and such.
iansltx

join:2007-02-19
Austin, TX
kudos:2
Reviews:
·Time Warner Cable
·Verizon Online DSL

Re: Who handles the copper line repairs?

Says he person who isn't affected either way because Sonic is several states away...

Anyway, Sonic.net is an acual CLEC IIRC, so unless AT&T wants to get the crap regulated out of them they'll keep service available on the older DSL architecture.

Also, VDSL doesn't do POTS, so if people don't want U-Voice in a particular area then AT&T has to offer regular phone service, which happens to be from the same COs etc. that DSL runs from.
hottboiinnc
ME

join:2003-10-15
Cleveland, OH

Re: Who handles the copper line repairs?

So just because their a CLEC doesn't matter.

VZ is pulling their copper out and guess what happens. The CLEC gets the shaft and is killed by one more customer upgrading.

You're also not affected so your comment applies to you.

Also ATT being regulated? LMAO!

the FCC bought and paid for by ATT and VZ. Also you must have not have read the memo, NEW Built out networks do NOT have to be shared with anyone else. Which MEANS: if the ILEC pulls the copper lines TOUGH SHIT for the CLECs, Look at the FTTH networks in Monroe MI where ATT built these out when it was SBC. They do not have any choices except ATT for services.

Guess what? Tough shit for the customers the FCC says.
iansltx

join:2007-02-19
Austin, TX
kudos:2

Re: Who handles the copper line repairs?

That was the former FCC. Let's hope the brave new wo...erm...administration can fix things. Also, DSL around here is served by a DLEC. Too bad most of the lines are too crappy, or Verizon would have their own DSL here.
hottboiinnc
ME

join:2003-10-15
Cleveland, OH

Re: Who handles the copper line repairs?

If the FCC changed what the previous agreed to as far as the new networks i'm sure the FCC will find themselves in court faster than what we can blink. With that FiOS and U-Verse would be shut down that millisecond.
xan_user

join:2004-11-18
Santa Rosa, CA

1 edit

"greater loop lengths"

quote:
line-bonding is one way to grab additional bandwidth at greater loop lengths out of both ADSL2+ and VDSL.
What does this mean, if anything, regarding those currently just out of reach of sonic's DSL service. Do we now have choices other than IDSN and or 56Kx2(bonded)?
Or does this just mean more bandwidth for those already under the broadband over copper ATT/Sonic line length restriction?

Rhaas
Premium
join:2005-12-19
Bernie, MO

Re: "greater loop lengths"

It wont extend the reach... much... depending on the service level. You should be able to push a 1.5M service an additional 3kft+, distance depends on the condition of the copper plant. Really it means more bandwidth available for the same given distance.

This is from our testing in '07: »Bonded DSL Testing the 'black-box' mentioned in that thread are Charles Ind. Adrenalines (they were beta then and I couldn't discuss them at the time).
iansltx

join:2007-02-19
Austin, TX
kudos:2
Reviews:
·Time Warner Cable
·Verizon Online DSL
In all likelihood, the distance cutoff for DSL-based services will not change. However cutomsers who previously could only get 768k due to loop length issues will now be able to get something more. Pair bonding, at its best, doubles available bandwidth. However double nothing is still nothing, unless Sonic decides to put AdrenaLine on their longer pairs (unlikely).
patcat88

join:2002-04-05
Jamaica, NY
kudos:1

supression of innovation

Click for full size
Click for full size
A decade too late.

I can do VPN bonding with linux since day one. Why has it taken 10 years and counting for an ISP to figure out how to do it?

Innovation warehousing, hoarding of IP capital, patent suppression, and collusion in suppression of innovation and progression by the incumbents to avoid a profit loosing disruptive technology from affecting them or forcing them to innovate is the problem with the world now.

There is so much technology and surpression of innovation in this world. Just pick up a copy of Popular Mechanics from the last 5 decades and 99% of their "future" crap has never happened.

copper FTW

@qwest.net

Re: supression of innovation

What is VPN bonding that you speak ? I think you may be referring to bridging two physical interfaces in linux (e.g eth0 and eth1 would become br0 ) xDSL technology is a lot different then that type of setup and pair bonding is not easy or fast to deploy.
patcat88

join:2002-04-05
Jamaica, NY
kudos:1

Re: supression of innovation

»www.zeroshell.net/eng/faq/vpn/#vpn.faq3

DaneJasper
Sonic.Net
Premium,VIP
join:2001-08-20
Santa Rosa, CA
kudos:9

Answers to a few questions

To address a couple of the questions:

We do not anticipate offering longer distance products using bonding, but bonding does allow delivery of faster service at a given distance. So, at a location where a customer might get 1.5Mbps/384kbps, with bonding they typically can obtain 3.0Mbps/768kbps.

Regarding bonding availability, CPE for ADSL2+ pair bonding have just become available in the last year or so, and the ADSL2+ bond DSLAM code is actually still in beta. We expect general release shortly. This is all quite new stuff.

-Dane

DataRiker
Premium
join:2002-05-19
00000

Re: Answers to a few questions

said by DaneJasper:

To address a couple of the questions:

We do not anticipate offering longer distance products using bonding, but bonding does allow delivery of faster service at a given distance. So, at a location where a customer might get 1.5Mbps/384kbps, with bonding they typically can obtain 3.0Mbps/768kbps.

Regarding bonding availability, CPE for ADSL2+ pair bonding have just become available in the last year or so, and the ADSL2+ bond DSLAM code is actually still in beta. We expect general release shortly. This is all quite new stuff.

-Dane
What I don't understand is why not use line bonding to serve longer lengths, even if the speed is very low. Many of these people are desperate for anything besides ISDN or 56K.

Sadly, to this day many still only have ISDN as a high speed option - which really isn't an option

DaneJasper
Sonic.Net
Premium,VIP
join:2001-08-20
Santa Rosa, CA
kudos:9

Re: Answers to a few questions

In California, the maximum length you can legally drive high frequency data on is 17,500ft.

If and when reach extended ADSL2+ is ratified as a standard, that would likely become an option. But for now, as I understand it the standard is not complete, so it would not be legal.

Meanwhile, bonding could let you offer some services in areas that today no one reaches, and at 2x the speed.

-Dane
Thislilfishy

join:2008-10-28
Orangeville, ON
kudos:1
said by DaneJasper:

To address a couple of the questions:

We do not anticipate offering longer distance products using bonding, but bonding does allow delivery of faster service at a given distance. So, at a location where a customer might get 1.5Mbps/384kbps, with bonding they typically can obtain 3.0Mbps/768kbps.

Regarding bonding availability, CPE for ADSL2+ pair bonding have just become available in the last year or so, and the ADSL2+ bond DSLAM code is actually still in beta. We expect general release shortly. This is all quite new stuff.

-Dane
You should talk to the boys at Teksavvy, they've been bonding for quite some time. I've been on mlppp for about a year now using their services. It's been a bumpy ride but they seem to have it all sorted now.

Ian

DaneJasper
Sonic.Net
Premium,VIP
join:2001-08-20
Santa Rosa, CA
kudos:9

Re: Answers to a few questions

said by Thislilfishy:

said by DaneJasper:

To address a couple of the questions:

We do not anticipate offering longer distance products using bonding, but bonding does allow delivery of faster service at a given distance. So, at a location where a customer might get 1.5Mbps/384kbps, with bonding they typically can obtain 3.0Mbps/768kbps.

Regarding bonding availability, CPE for ADSL2+ pair bonding have just become available in the last year or so, and the ADSL2+ bond DSLAM code is actually still in beta. We expect general release shortly. This is all quite new stuff.

-Dane
You should talk to the boys at Teksavvy, they've been bonding for quite some time. I've been on mlppp for about a year now using their services. It's been a bumpy ride but they seem to have it all sorted now.

Ian
We do have bonding working in the current platform, I think the issue was concurrent POTS voice and bonding on the same card. That required a card update, plus new firmware which is still beta.

They might also be using a different DSLAM/MSA platform than us for bonding.

-Dane

frnkblk

@mtcnet.net
MLPPP is bonding at a different layer than ADSL2+ line bonding. They should not be confused.

Frank
hottboiinnc
ME

join:2003-10-15
Cleveland, OH

DSL? WTFE

Why not just spend the money on something else and skip using copper? I mean we can build WiMax systems, MMDS, wireless with Mot Canopy. But yet ISPs are still using Copper. and ADSL2+ at that. Hell even ATT and Qwest are using VDSL!

WTF!
qworster

join:2001-11-25
Bryn Mawr, PA

2 edits

Then the law needs to be changed, Dane

If current California law limits distances to 17.500 feet and is obsolete and/or does not reflect what can be done with current technology then it should either be changed, or overriden by the FCC.
hottboiinnc
ME

join:2003-10-15
Cleveland, OH

Re: Then the law needs to be changed, Dane

California is it's own country you should know that by now. And Sonic doesn't have the money to take on that law and the State.

ATT will eat them alive. if the current law is on the side of ATT.

DaneJasper
Sonic.Net
Premium,VIP
join:2001-08-20
Santa Rosa, CA
kudos:9

Re: Then the law needs to be changed, Dane

Until reach extended (RE-ADSL2) is ratified as an official standard, I don't think the 17,500ft distance is the real issue.

At that distance, ADSL1 and ADSL2+ are a bit slow and unreliable.

Once RE-ADSL2 is official, clearly longer loops would be useful.

-Dane
BigBlockChev

join:2004-09-18

How is the real-world bonded performance?

What kind of real world speeds are you seeing with bonded ADSL? I don't live in Sonic.net area but one of my local ISPs is starting to advertise bonded ADSL, but none of the techs have seen it in use yet. In my own situation, I have 10mbps down, 1mbps up ADSL. My modem syncs up at about 12mbps down and 940kbps up. My speed tests show about 9.5mbps down, 850 kbps up. If I had a bonded pair would I see double that? Or are there crosstalk issues that keep bonded from being truly double? What kind of increase can a person hope to see by doubling their current DSL service with a bonded offering? I seem to be hampered with 850kbps upload due to the SNR of my single line.
teekblang

join:2009-04-06
Glendale, CA

RATES

I am thinking of disconnecting my service with AT&T because of their stupid price change. Where can I compare the price list on DSL provider in Glendale (los Angeles Area).

If the price is attractive for a single static IP I will get one otherwise dynamic is fine