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Sonic.net Drops Prices On ADSL2+ Service
Price cuts range from $5 to $25 a month...
by Karl Bode 08:57AM Friday Aug 28 2009 Tipped by DaneJasper See Profile
Sonic.net CEO Dane Jasper tells us the California-based ISP has dropped prices on their new Fusion ADSL2+ services, which the company is now offering over their own network. According to a blog post by the CEO, their static or dynamic IP ADSL2+ packages have seen price cuts ranging from $5 to $25, depending on the speed of the package. The company started offering ADSL2+ service over their own network last fall, offering tiers in 6Mbps, 8Mbps and 18Mbps flavors. Earlier this summer the company started tinkering with line-bonded ADSL2+, which should allow the company to offer downstream speeds up to 30Mbps.

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hottboiinnc
ME

join:2003-10-15
Cleveland, OH

Not Totally

Not totally their own network. They still depend on ATT's copper and depend on ATT leaving it in place. They'll be SOL if ATT ever went to full Fiber.

davoice

join:2000-08-12
Saxapahaw, NC

Re: Not Totally

said by hottboiinnc:

They'll be SOL if ATT ever went to full Fiber.
ROFLOL. Yeah. Just like fat cat politicians and lobbyists will be SOL if we ever get transparency and accountability in our government. Like that will ever happen.
hottboiinnc
ME

join:2003-10-15
Cleveland, OH

Re: Not Totally

ATT already has several cities that are already FTTH. It killed the Indie ISPs and all the CLECs in those areas. You can't offer DSL over Fiber it just doesn't work. ATT will kill them just watch and see. And after all ADSL2 limits their customer base by NOT being allowed access to the RTs.

Snoic will die and that will be the end. Instead of relying on DSL they should be building out in the form of Wireless and Fiber. Maybe servicing MDUs
iansltx

join:2007-02-19
Austin, TX
kudos:2

Re: Not Totally

Where, en masse, has AT&T rolled out FTTH to the exclusion of copper? U-Verse doesn't count because in most of those areas you can still get copper-to-the-CO DSL.
hottboiinnc
ME

join:2003-10-15
Cleveland, OH

Re: Not Totally

U-Verse is also FTTH. Monroe County Michigan was one of the FIRST cities that SBC under Ed was FULLY Rebuilt to FTTH. several other cities were done as well in WI and MI.

KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK

1 recommendation

The thing is, if given enough time to build a good foundation, Sonic.net won't NEED AT&T's copper. They'll be able to build out their own RT's and directly connect to customer's homes.

Problem is, they will have to grow to a certain point before such actions start making economic sense.

The more customers they can get off AT&T's equipment and onto their own network, the more profitable it is... but they need a solid enough base to support the initial infrastructure cost outlays.
--
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." -- Benito Mussolini
hottboiinnc
ME

join:2003-10-15
Cleveland, OH

Re: Not Totally

WHY USE COPPER? That's the question. Who in their right mind wants to still use copper telephone lines in 4years? The speed will still be what it is today. There is no changing that speed. Sonic is making a nice bed with copper and they'll feel that when it comes time. Instead of deploying something scalable like Wireless they decided to sink money in a hole that will never be anything but that.

Look at VZ, they realized what a blackhole copper is, ATT is starting to. But yet you have Indie ISPs that are FREE to build out here and just NOW are starting BUT STILL relaying on on the copper phone system.

Also Sonic recently bought a Wireless ISP, they have their website being redirected to Sonic.net but YET have to offer the service on their main site. Talk about a waste, yet they keep promoting their DSL services.

DaneJasper
Sonic.Net
Premium,VIP
join:2001-08-20
Santa Rosa, CA
kudos:9

Re: Not Totally

said by hottboiinnc:

WHY USE COPPER? That's the question. Who in their right mind wants to still use copper telephone lines in 4years? The speed will still be what it is today. There is no changing that speed. Sonic is making a nice bed with copper and they'll feel that when it comes time. Instead of deploying something scalable like Wireless they decided to sink money in a hole that will never be anything but that.

...(trimmed)

Also Sonic recently bought a Wireless ISP, they have their website being redirected to Sonic.net but YET have to offer the service on their main site. Talk about a waste, yet they keep promoting their DSL services.
Delivery over copper in the last mile makes sense for us today because the copper is there, and there is new technology that allows us to drive it faster (ADSL2+, Annex M, and pair bonding.) Obviously this isn't the end-game, and I do believe it's inevitable that everyone will be served with fiber in the long run.

As for wireless, it doesn't have the speed to compete. Where we can deliver 30Mbps on copper, and 100+ on fiber, wireless point to multi-point is generally limited to around 5-10Mbps per customer. Also, it's a shared network, so there is a lot of congestion potential as adoption grows.

As for our West Sonoma County "PogoWave" wireless network and product, we haven't added links to our website because we're still working on some important changes to the product itself for speed and reliability, plus integrating signup processes and staff training. I do anticipate that this product will continue to serve rural West county residents with quality broadband in the 3Mbps and below speed range.

Due to the speed limitations in wireless, I'd always expect to see DSL and other directly connected products promoted where they are available. Along the same lines, note that terrestrial wireless (PogoWave, etc) will be preferred over our satellite broadband product due to speed, reliability and cost. All the products have a niche where they are best used.

-Dane
hottboiinnc
ME

join:2003-10-15
Cleveland, OH

Re: Not Totally

So you claim DSL isn't shared as well?

But like i said before, you'll be screwed if ATT decides to pull that copper out. Your "new" DSL will be SOL along with your company....

DSL= death of all ISPs investing money in it STILL.
patcat88

join:2002-04-05
Jamaica, NY
kudos:1
said by davoice:

said by hottboiinnc:

They'll be SOL if ATT ever went to full Fiber.
ROFLOL. Yeah. Just like fat cat politicians and lobbyists will be SOL if we ever get transparency and accountability in our government. Like that will ever happen.
ATT can't collect USF subsidizes on Fiber, only on Copper.
hottboiinnc
ME

join:2003-10-15
Cleveland, OH

Re: Not Totally

they don't have to worry about that when they charge $9+ for CID and $8+ on Call Waiting.
patcat88

join:2002-04-05
Jamaica, NY
kudos:1

Re: Not Totally

said by hottboiinnc:

they don't have to worry about that when they charge $9+ for CID and $8+ on Call Waiting.
Its still money. There is no limits to making the dividend.

DaneJasper
Sonic.Net
Premium,VIP
join:2001-08-20
Santa Rosa, CA
kudos:9
said by hottboiinnc:

Not totally their own network. They still depend on ATT's copper and depend on ATT leaving it in place. They'll be SOL if ATT ever went to full Fiber.
We do not anticipate issues with availability of copper in the near future.

That said, clearly this (ADSL2+ over copper) is not the end-game.

The primary issue is that we have limited reach. Currently we are limiting availability at 11,100ft from COs, and this is just nowhere near complete coverage.

Also, there are inherent limits in copper. I'm sure we will continue to see some incremental gains using things like dynamic spectrum management for noise compensation, but DSL over copper doesn't hold a candle to what can be done with fiber.

That said, as a next step, in the areas where the product reaches, it's exciting stuff. We are serving many people today with 18Mbps/1Mbps services who's only other options are six to twelve megabits from other carriers. In a couple weeks we'll be boosting that to 30/2, then 30/4 in a month or two.

We also have reasonably priced static IP services and are happy to see customers hosting servers, and we've got no bandwidth caps.

All in all, it's a nice product set.

But yes, long term we've got to continue to deliver more, and we are working in that direction.

-Dane

caesarv

join:1999-08-02
Santa Rosa, CA

Re: Not Totally

Okay, you convinced me. I signed up for the 12/1Mb plan today since it is only $6 more than I am currently paying for 6Mb. You indicate that you may be boosting 18/1 to 30/2 or 30/4. Will the lower tier products also see a boost?

I really only need 1 static IP, but you only offer 8. Any ideas on what I can do with those remaining ones? And does anyone need an old Alcatel 1000...I see they are going for 99cents on eBay!

I am hoping you offer voice in the very near future, I really want to lose my existing ATT connection.
oxwich

join:2009-06-30
Santa Rosa, CA

Re: Not Totally

If you need voice you can go with Vonage. I have Sonic Fusion and Vonage works fine with it. It's $24.99 for unlimited local and long distance. I use it for unlimited calls to Europe. You can also get voicemails sent as an email. Way better and cheaper than
At&T.

DaneJasper
Sonic.Net
Premium,VIP
join:2001-08-20
Santa Rosa, CA
kudos:9
said by caesarv:

Okay, you convinced me. I signed up for the 12/1Mb plan today since it is only $6 more than I am currently paying for 6Mb. You indicate that you may be boosting 18/1 to 30/2 or 30/4. Will the lower tier products also see a boost?

I really only need 1 static IP, but you only offer 8. Any ideas on what I can do with those remaining ones? And does anyone need an old Alcatel 1000...I see they are going for 99cents on eBay!

I am hoping you offer voice in the very near future, I really want to lose my existing ATT connection.
Thanks for joining up, hope you enjoy the service!

We will be offering POTS voice delivered on the Fusion dedicated pair in the future.

-Dane
delltechkid

join:2004-11-09
Hermitage, TN

Upload speeds?

So if they can put 30Mbps down, what's the upload? 2 to 3Mbps Up?
billern

join:2003-01-22
Santa Rosa, CA

Re: Upload speeds?

said by delltechkid:

So if they can put 30Mbps down, what's the upload? 2 to 3Mbps Up?
Their bonded product can do something like that. They are still in testing on that. Apparently they are also looking into offering connections with 2Mbps up and reduced download speeds (I think 6 or 8 down and 2 up).

They are testing and looking into different options:
»corp.sonic.net/ceo/2009/07/30/te···-46mbps/

DaneJasper
Sonic.Net
Premium,VIP
join:2001-08-20
Santa Rosa, CA
kudos:9
said by delltechkid:

So if they can put 30Mbps down, what's the upload? 2 to 3Mbps Up?
Pair bonded at 30Mbps will be offered starting in about a week or so, initially with 2Mbps up.

Subsequent support for Annex M will be deployed, which allows for a bit over doubling of the downstream, with some small potential decrease in the downstream. So, you'll see products like 18/2 on a single pair, and 30/4 on dual pair with Annex M.

Of course, distance does limit real world performance. In the lab, it's pretty amazing stuff (see »corp.sonic.net/ceo/2009/07/30/te···-46mbps/ ) but we are realistic in marketing at "only" 30/4Mbps.

-Dane
djeremy

join:2004-07-12
San Francisco, CA

nice

I've had their ADSL2+ Fusion service for a while now and couldn't be happier... until they lowered the price.

It's been rock solid, always fast and have really low ping times. Also, not paying AT&T for a POTS line is really nice.

DaneJasper
Sonic.Net
Premium,VIP
join:2001-08-20
Santa Rosa, CA
kudos:9

Re: nice

said by djeremy:

I've had their ADSL2+ Fusion service for a while now and couldn't be happier... until they lowered the price.

It's been rock solid, always fast and have really low ping times. Also, not paying AT&T for a POTS line is really nice.
Glad you liked the speed bump and price decreases! Looks like you're in San Francisco - we've got the hottest things going in that market. Tell a neighbor!

-Dane
Dan2112

join:2001-08-24
San Jose, CA

3 edits

Only if you are less than 11K from the CO

Sonic can not provision Fusion based products on ATT Remote terminals. So anybody interested in Fusion should call/email Sonic support to get the distances from the CO, not a Remote Terminal. If you are within 11K of the CO you should be good to go. In my case I am super close to my RT but over 11K from the CO - so I am "stuck" at 6M/768k.
hottboiinnc
ME

join:2003-10-15
Cleveland, OH

Re: Only if you are less than 11K from the CO

that's why instead of spending all this money on DSL they should be investing it in other products. WiMAX? FTTH, MDUs, Moto Canopy products, etc
me1212

join:2008-11-20
Pleasant Hill, MO

Re: Only if you are less than 11K from the CO

Wimax would actually be a good idea, IMHO, I have seen speed test with a DL of over 13m and a UL of over 7m.
hottboiinnc
ME

join:2003-10-15
Cleveland, OH

Re: Only if you are less than 11K from the CO

I've seen tests like that as well.

i don't get why ISPs spend all this money on DSL and using the ILECs networks/last mile plant when they can spend that money building out their own network and save the $$$ in the long run. Especially deploying ADSL2+ and then gonna rebuild out later? IMO WTF!
me1212

join:2008-11-20
Pleasant Hill, MO

Re: Only if you are less than 11K from the CO

I know why waste money on DSL(which money spent on DSL is imho) When wimax can do WAY better UL speeds than DSL and about on par with ULs I have seen from TW.

100/50 is being worked on for mobile wimax, and 1000/? for fixed. Thats better than docsis3.

AND wimax can be used to make a wireless last mile. And from what I hear can congestion can be fixed more easily than cable.
oxwich

join:2009-06-30
Santa Rosa, CA

1 recommendation

The reason is that it costs money. Verizon and AT&T are billion dollar companies. It costs a lot of money to lay fibre whether it's in the ground or run from the telegraph pole. Sonic does not have to do this using copper. It's already there for them.

As Dane mentioned, Sonic aren't stupid but are playing a safe and long term game.

It's pretty obvious if you think about it.
hottboiinnc
ME

join:2003-10-15
Cleveland, OH

Re: Only if you are less than 11K from the CO

nobody said anything about fiBER we stated WiMAX and Moto Canopy products and getting away from copper. But Sonic doesn't get that. They spend all this money deploying their own NOC but YET still are relaying on a DEAD technology and on ATT.

When you spend that capital on a dead technology you lose now and especially later. You should spend that money on a technology that is NEW and WORKS withOUT the ILEC's 100+year old network.
oxwich

join:2009-06-30
Santa Rosa, CA

Re: Only if you are less than 11K from the CO

Ok. So how much does it cost to employ WiMax and Canopy relative to ADSL?

What's with all the CAPITAL LETTERS? You seem a little angry/agitated about all this. You live in Toledo, OH so Sonic's business decisions don't affect you agree?

At the end of the day, Dane is the CEO and founder so it is up to him to decide how Sonic is run. Don't you agree?
hottboiinnc
ME

join:2003-10-15
Cleveland, OH

Re: Only if you are less than 11K from the CO

No it doesn't bother me. It's not my money. He can be the CEO/Founder all he wants. It's the point he doesn't know how to spend money on what will work. Instead he's using an outdated technology that later ATT will run him into the ground.

I also don't live in Toledo
oxwich

join:2009-06-30
Santa Rosa, CA
You mentioned earlier in these posts about FTTH . How much does it cost to install WiMax relative to ADSL? The copper wire is installed whereas erecting base stations to serve multiplle locations are not.

Even ATT still uses primarily DSL with Uverse. Fibre to the VRAD and then DSL to the premises.

I for one will be ordering dual bonded ADSL2+ shortly and enjoy the 30/2 Mbit speeds from this slow and outdated technolgy.

DaneJasper
Sonic.Net
Premium,VIP
join:2001-08-20
Santa Rosa, CA
kudos:9
I don't believe wireless will serve fixed users well in the long run. There just isn't enough capacity.

An ADSL2+ deployment is a "DSLAM" in a CO - and today's DSLAMs are actually MSAs - multi-service-aggregators, so they will take a GPON card when it's time for FTTH.

Building a network of COs and MSAs is one step along a path.

-Dane

a333
A hot cup of integrals please

join:2007-06-12
Rego Park, NY

1 edit
Errr.... WiMax not only involves investment in base stations and other equipment, along with CPE, but also spectrum. Incase you haven't noticed, spectrum isn't exactly free...... even carriers like AT&T and Verizon Wireless spent billions on measly allocations of frequencies. Also, wireless is all well and good when you have a mobile network, but when you have thousands of subscribers connecting to a single base station in a city for hours at a time, as is the case with fixed WiMax, you not only need a LOT of backhaul, you need HUGE amounts of spectrum, which costs astronomical amounts, compared to deploying a wired technology that runs on existing infrastructure. As of right now, only Sprint/Clear have the 100 Mhz/market spectrum to possibly even imagine serving up 6-10 Mbps speeds to large metro areas on a pseudo-reliable basis. Even then, you're probably going to have to impose some serious throttling/network management to keep things under control.

Best,
a333
--
Linux: Because a PC is a terrible thing to waste
My Location: /universe/earth/north-america/USA- fsck that!!!
Physics: Will you break the laws of physics, or will the laws of physics break you?
Expand your moderator at work

KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK
said by hottboiinnc:

that's why instead of spending all this money on DSL they should be investing it in other products. WiMAX? FTTH, MDUs, Moto Canopy products, etc
There's a saying:

You have to crawl before you can walk. Walk before you can Run.
--
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." -- Benito Mussolini

uald

@bellsouth.net

Location

Are they only available in California?

I'm interested in the 18/1 tier, but I'd prefer to not give out all my contact information (and their system won't check availability without a name, phone number, AND email address.)

DaneJasper
Sonic.Net
Premium,VIP
join:2001-08-20
Santa Rosa, CA
kudos:9

Re: Location

Yes, availability is currently limited to parts of the SF Bay Area.

-Dane