 
odog
Cable Centric Vendor Biased
Premium
join:2001-08-05
Norcross, GA
clubs: | whatever it takes to bring these *uckers down. | |
|
 | 
Minister
join:2002-01-02
Fleeting | Re: whatever it takes Laws and others on that pipe be damned, huh? | |
|
| 
Jason Levine
Premium
join:2001-07-13
USA | Including sinking to their level or lower?
Sorry, but I'd prefer to get rid of spammers without compromising my ethics. | |
|
| | markopoleo
join:2003-04-02
Bonne Terre, MO
 ·Charter Pipeline
| Re: whatever it takes said by Jason Levine  :Including sinking to their level or lower? Sorry, but I'd prefer to get rid of spammers without compromising my ethics. How is it sinking to their level or lower? Your flooding there network with bandwidth..
They flood you with spam over the same network that they make thousands/millions dollars from hopeless people who buy the crap. Its a injustice of one not to fight back. You think Laws are going to stop spammers? think again. Every 1 spammer that gets caught, a dozen pop up in varying countries ready to take up the cause. | |
|
| | |
Minister
join:2002-01-02
Fleeting | Re: whatever it takes There are often innocent parties sharing that bandwidth. | |
|
| | | | 
technick
Premium
join:2000-12-16
Loganville, GA | Re: whatever it takes In every war, there is collateral damage. | |
|
| | | | | Samwoo
join:2002-02-15
Rancho Palos Verdes, CA | Re: whatever it takes if the collateral is the entire internet... it is a war i do not want to see. | |
|
| | | | | |
technick
Premium
join:2000-12-16
Loganville, GA | Re: whatever it takes It would never shut down the whole internet. The whole model the internet is based around redundency. | |
|
| | | | | | | |
| | | | | 
MplsGuy
@209.32.x.x | By this logic, if a murder is known to be in a large city, it's best to just launch a nuke in there. Collateral damage can be expected, but its the price of justice. | |
|
| | | 
sbrook
Premium,Mod
join:2001-12-14
H0H 0H0
·Rogers Hi-Speed
Host:
Rogers
Bell Canada
| You're not just flooding *their* bandwidth, you're flooding everybody else's bandwidth too.
Somewhere I saw a comment that shortly after that site was brought up some 25% of backbones traffic was based on that tactic. I doubt the number was that high, but it was probably significant.
There are really not that many spammers out there ... but there are now a lot using trojans that make traditional methods of fighting spam like spitting into the ocean. | |
|
| | |
Jason Levine
Premium
join:2001-07-13
USA
| You aren't just flooding their network, you are also flooding other folks who happen to be on the same network segment. If my ISP happens to be hosting a spammer (whether they know about it or not) and my website is sitting "next door" so to speak, then your flooding of the spammer's site might take down my site as well.
How would it be appropriate to take down my site just because the ISP I use also happened to be used by a spammer? And don't tell me that I should change ISPs. It's not always simple and there's no guarantee that any ISP I go to will be immune from collateral damage in the future. It's not a solution to keeping my site up and running, just a temporary patch until the spammer changes networks.
--
-Jason Levine
http://www.jasons-toolbox.com/
http://www.PCQandA.com/
http://www.urateit.com/ | |
|
| | 
Nerdtalker
Working Hard, Or Hardly Working?
Premium,MVM
join:2003-02-18
Tucson, AZ
clubs:
| said by Jason Levine :Including sinking to their level or lower? Sorry, but I'd prefer to get rid of spammers without compromising my ethics. I'd rationalize it by saying you're giving them a taste of their own medicine.
Spam is effectively DOS'ing the ability to not check your inbox without having 100+ spamvertisements for vi/\gra.
--
Touch a thistle timidly, and it pricks you; grasp it boldly, and its spines crumble. -William S. Halsey
Kazaa Is Spyware. Gator / Claria Is Spyware.
I'm testing Gmail's spam filters: Broadbandreports1@gmail.com
Spam: 1186 | |
|
| | |
Jason Levine
Premium
join:2001-07-13
USA | Re: whatever it takes You are also taking out every website that is on the same network segment. Just because I happen to live next door to a spammer, is it appropriate to bomb my driveway as well? | |
|
| | | |
Nerdtalker
Working Hard, Or Hardly Working?
Premium,MVM
join:2003-02-18
Tucson, AZ
clubs:
| Re: whatever it takes said by Jason Levine :You are also taking out every website that is on the same network segment. Just because I happen to live next door to a spammer, is it appropriate to bomb my driveway as well? You've let them remain there, and you'd be part of the problem.
If you're not against spam, you're for it.
Either way, the spammers don't even deserve your defense.
--
Touch a thistle timidly, and it pricks you; grasp it boldly, and its spines crumble. -William S. Halsey
Kazaa Is Spyware. Gator / Claria Is Spyware.
I'm testing Gmail's spam filters: Broadbandreports1@gmail.com
Spam: 1186 | |
|
| | | | |
Jason Levine
Premium
join:2001-07-13
USA
| Re: whatever it takes said by Nerdtalker :You've let them remain there, and you'd be part of the problem. I haven't let them remain there. My ISP may have or they may just not know that they are there just yet or they may be going through their process to warn the spammer before booting them. In any case, I, as a website operator, don't know what my network segment neighbors are doing and I really don't have time to worry about that.
said by Nerdtalker :If you're not against spam, you're for it. I'm definitely against spam, but I'm also against using a sledgehammer to swat a fly. DDoSing spammers just generates more network traffic and is illegal in and of itself. Bayesian filters are effective at weeding out spam without generating more network traffic. And education will help keep people from buying from spam. (Which cuts spammers' profits which makes it harder to make a living from spamming.)
said by Nerdtalker :Either way, the spammers don't even deserve your defense. No, but the sites that you take out as collateral damage do. They aren't supporting spam, they just happen to live next door to a spammer. If one of my neighbors on my block were to have been found guilty of fraud, should I be sent to jail too? Do I somehow bear some responsibility for the fraud that my neighbor committed even if I had never talked to him/her and didn't know what they were doing?
--
-Jason Levine
http://www.jasons-toolbox.com/
http://www.PCQandA.com/
http://www.urateit.com/ | |
|
| |
technick
Premium
join:2000-12-16
Loganville, GA
| Jason, I generally agree with you on most things, but there's a time when you have to fight back. You know as well as most of the people here, spam is not going to stop until something soo radical threatens their way of life.
It's time for a revolution to stop SPAM.
--
"Our greatest glory consists not in never falling, but in rising everytime we fall." - Confucius - - - - - - - - - - - Streamfire.net- - AIM - CoNFuCiUsNiCk | |
|
| | | 
Vvian Kalyss
join:2003-10-14
Stage 5.0
clubs:
| Re: whatever it takes I agree. While I contribute to the vigilantism problem, I do hope that the coming 'legal' technological fixes for spam aren't too far behind. There are only so many addresses you can ddos, and I'm running out of botnets, lol 
--
Mikami Vvian, resident Girlfriend of Steel, care of the Tokyo-3 Middle Daughters Club | |
|
| | |
Jason Levine
Premium
join:2001-07-13
USA
| Spam won't stop until no one buys anything from the spammers. Therefore, if we keep filtering out the spam using Bayesian filters and keep educating people not to buy from spam, then the spammers will eventually lose their profit motive.
said by technick :It's time for a revolution to stop SPAM. Actually, SPAM is a product by Hormel (which I find disgusting for other reasons). Spam is the unsolicited commercial e-mail that we all know and hate. (Sorry, being nit-picky now.  )
--
-Jason Levine
http://www.jasons-toolbox.com/
http://www.PCQandA.com/
http://www.urateit.com/ | |
|
amenite
The Soylent - It's People
Premium
join:2002-11-21
Ridgewood, NJ
clubs:
 ·Verizon Online DSL
| Petitio Principii quote:
Of course such applications beg the question: where does Spam Vigilantism end, and DDoS attacks begin? The programmer explains his ethical position here.
Petitio Principii = Beg the Question != Prompt the Question
--
Time is an abstract concept invented by carbon based life forms to monitor their constant decay.-Thunderclese | |
|
|
|
technick
Premium
join:2000-12-16
Loganville, GA
| Re: uh oh Lowering? Again you are standing up for something you believe in. Do you think our laws are going to stop them? Back in the day when laws were not passed yet, do you think people feel back on morals? No, they assembled army's of villagers with pitch forks to take care of the problem.
America has lost it's backbone some where...
--
"Our greatest glory consists not in never falling, but in rising everytime we fall." - Confucius - - - - - - - - - - - Streamfire.net- - AIM - CoNFuCiUsNiCk | |
|
| |
| | 
jansm38
Vn800-B
Premium
join:2003-05-19
Blackwood, NJ
| Re: uh oh Think of it this way for a moment.
You are a legitimate business person and 70% of your sales come from your website. Now suppose that your website is hosted by the same hosting service that also has one of the targeted spam-sites or they share the same interconnection to the backbone. All of a sudden nobody can get to your site and buy your products because the host is unreachable due to the DDOs that's going on.
Sound fair?
This didn't just affect the spammers, it affected legitimate users as well. | |
|
| | | BosstonesOwn
join:2002-12-15
Everett, MA
clubs:
·Comcast
·Comcast Formerly ..
| Re: uh oh in a data center where these guys are mostly located. They sell managed ports on a huge network with multiple pops.
The spammers buy a 10 mbit port on aggro pipes. They never slow down those around them.
If they are using virtualized servers then it the persons fault who is selling virtualized servers. Any business who takes their site seriously is on a dedicated server in a decent data center. With aggro connections and redundant links to and from the routed core they will never see a slow down.
--
"It's always funny until someone gets hurt......and then it's absolutely friggin' hysterical!" | |
|
| | | |
jansm38
Vn800-B
Premium
join:2003-05-19
Blackwood, NJ
| Re: uh oh But if the connection to the backbone is flooded it doesn't matter what is inside the data center. They could (and probably do) have Gig-E to the cores but if you can't get to core from the outside it doesn't really matter.
Now I'll agree that it would take a tremendous amount of hits to flood the interconnection to the peers but it possible, that's the basis of a DDOS. | |
|
| | | | | BosstonesOwn
join:2002-12-15
Everett, MA
clubs:
·Comcast
·Comcast Formerly ..
| Re: uh oh You miss the point. You are as fast as the slowest link. If the core is gig e let's say and your paying for 10 mbit. Only that much will be routed to the machine. once the port is slowing down the routers stop transferring packets to it or try and send them around another way to get it there faster. Since the router is literally stormed with packets the routers can't pass more then 10 mbit to the server so they start dropping packets. That is how a ddos works. They can only break the port since it is the slowest part.
It may slow down the link in that is gig e by what 10 mbit? but that is not even a point of saturation enough to slow down the rest of the net where they are. Managed routers are very very very good at doing their job of limiting bandwidth.
--
"It's always funny until someone gets hurt......and then it's absolutely friggin' hysterical!" | |
|
| | | | | |
MplsGuy
@209.32.x.x | Re: uh oh It would appear that you have no experience operating a BGP connected network, Or any redundantly connected network for that matter. | |
|
| 
Swordfish II
Watching A Dream
Premium
join:2002-05-12
Cloud 9
| said by RyanG1 :as much as i would like to see spammers hung publicly, i would not lower myself down to their level in order to get back at them. As amusing as it seems, its not right. Was it right for the US to start a war with mexico to basically take Texas and California after they refused to sell? Is it right for the US to force our own system of government on Iraq when the people may want something different? Some things just have to be done
--
I'm not going there to die. I'm going there to see if i really am alive. | |
|
B
Premium,MVM
join:2000-10-28
| Not the Brightest Guy?
I dunno -- for one thing there doesn't seem to be ANYTHING distributed about this "DDoS" tool -- it sounds as if each user has to specifically enter the URL he or she wishes to visit repeatedly.
So it's nothing more than a web page reloader? Where's the novelty in that?
The author writes at a decent grade level, but has nothing to say, and seems a bit naive:
Some say tools like the one I've written will overload the Internet. If it does, then it'll force ISP's to take real measures against spammers such as blocking port 25 access to outside networks by default.
If this is done, spam spewing software will have a hard time communicating without being quickly traced.
AT&T Worldnet has done this. I have yet to receive a spam form a Worldnet customer. Other measures ISP's can take include encouraging the use of more secure operating systems such as Linux, MacOS, and BSD (Maybe by offering a small discount to these users). Where has he been for the last 5 years? It's become hard to find a major ISP that DOESN'T block Port 25 outbound for residential accounts.
Not to mention that web page reloads aren't going to overtake the Internet any time soon when they have to compete with P2P traffic and real spam.
-- B
--
In a realm outside causality and function | |
|
| 
Karl Bode
News Guy
join:2000-03-02 | Re: Not the Brightest Guy? quote:
Where has he been for the last 5 years? It's become hard to find a major ISP that DOESN'T block Port 25 outbound for residential accounts.
That was my first thought as well.... | |
|
| | BosstonesOwn
join:2002-12-15
Everett, MA
clubs:
·Comcast
·Comcast Formerly ..
| Re: Not the Brightest Guy? The biggest offender is comcast. They barely do anything to solve the problem. Just selectively wipe out 25 across the node/head end. Useless wipe the port out across the whole network not just one node/head end.
--
"It's always funny until someone gets hurt......and then it's absolutely friggin' hysterical!" | |
|
DaSneaky1D
one wall to block them all
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-29
The Lou | How is he protecting himself? Can anyone tell if he is blocking access by this program to his site?
--
] :: my trivial ramblings :: [ | |
|
technick
Premium
join:2000-12-16
Loganville, GA
1 edit | Fight fire with fire To have peace, you must have war. Nothing with in reason is going to stop these spammers, and you know it, as I do. They will continue to operate outside of our jurisdiction, and just on the other side of the fence. I have already started designing a windows program that does the same thing, just a little more efficient with targeting.
The line must be drawn here...
To prepare for peace, one must prepare for war. | |
|
|
|
|
technick
Premium
join:2000-12-16
Loganville, GA
| Re: makelovenotspam is better I will post my app here first when it is finished. I am setting it up where it will run in the background constantly and you can throttle how much bandwidth you want to use. I am working on setting up mirrors for the attack database. The only problem with being able to add your own addresses, is it could be used for attacking sites that are not even affiliated with SPAM. My program will only download the list from a set of servers.
I am sure when my program is released, some if not all of the servers will be attacked by spammers atleast once.
--
"Our greatest glory consists not in never falling, but in rising everytime we fall." - Confucius - - - - - - - - - - - Streamfire.net- - AIM - CoNFuCiUsNiCk | |
|
|
Karl Bode
News Guy
join:2000-03-02
Host:
Road Runner
PC gaming GAMES
PC gaming Tech
| The real appeal to me was there was someone with a brain controlling the bandwidth flow to prevent full scale DDoS, but making it costly for spammers.
Here it seems to me all we have is a scattered and rather mindless application of geek angst. | |
|
Derch
Premium
join:2004-10-16
Tulsa, OK | Good question. Where does the road end on this issue? I think the government doesn't act fast enough to stop these idiots from flooding the internet with garbage. But still, where does the blame go and what can we do without causing harm? | |
|
|
lucky644
Premium
join:2002-02-04 | Let em have it Far as I'm concerned, the spammers deserve it. Next program I run across I'll run to help the fight. | |
|
knightry
I'm Not Fat, I'm Festively Plump
join:2002-05-06
Oviedo, FL | The Boondock Saints Good for him. I say if you have the knowledge and power, then Spam Vigilantism is fine by me. Reminds me of the movie The Boondock Saints. Great movie, btw, for anyone who hasn't seen it. | |
|
Wills
join:2001-01-03
Port Charlotte, FL
| Not a bad idea. I think it's come to the point where this is the only option left.
Government intervention hasn't accomplished anything. Blacklists haven't accomplished anything. Nothing that we have done has stopped them.
What else is left?
There has to be a time when you drop your morals, and ultimately sink to their level to destroy them.
Sure there are innocent users. Maybe those innocent users complaining to the ISP's that host these spammers will make them take note of what they are doing wrong for the sake of a dollar.
--
Abit VP-6 twin 800EB's @ 1002 Mhz.Proud member of the XDC. | |
|
ArchAngel21x
MacFan Pro
Premium
join:2001-10-28
Lincoln, NE
·Internet Nebraska
| I Won't Participate I like the idea, but I tried another Web site that used bandwidth as a tactic and ended up burning through 25 Gigs in one day. I call that a waste of resources for my ISP and anyone else on my node.
--
Listen to an episode of Savage Nation. Updated 01 Dec 2004. | |
|
Samwoo
join:2002-02-15
Rancho Palos Verdes, CA
| Collateral Damage. Many people may think its a good idea.
However there is too much collateral Damage.
The way the internet is setup will now allow for such a program without also destroying the backbones.
When you target a single network with a DDOS or a program like this one, you are not only overloading that network, but you are also overloading the networks that are connected to it (in between you and the target network).
If this program got too wide spread, it could possible bring up traffic 150% or even double (and more) the traffic generated by constantly using a connection.
If that happened then think about this.
Double the traffic on backbones, double the failure rate on backbones, double of everything that must be invested in a backbone.
In the internet when you attack a specific site, you do not only damage the site itself, you damage the path that you must take to get to the site. | |
|
| silvergecko
join:2002-11-06
Plainville, CT
| SPAM only pays when you open your wallet The best way to stop SPAM, is to educate the public not to buy from them. If people stop buying stuff they see in SPAM, then SPAMMERS won't get paid, and then they will be forced to stop.
The problem is easier to solve then you think, if it weren't for all the stupid people in the world. | |
|
| | |
| | |
Vvian Kalyss
join:2003-10-14
Stage 5.0
clubs: | Re: SPAM only pays when you open your wallet " Against stupidity, the gods themselves contend in vain. "
Fitting. | |
|
| | | | Bait_hammer
join:2002-12-16
Victoria, BC
| Re: SPAM only pays when you open your wallet Consider spammers are moving to the use of viruses in order to turn unprotected computers into SPAM servers and there is nothing to stop a persistant spammer from moving to another provider in order to continue there activities.
Then think about the ability to turn the attempted DoS around and DoS other sites.
On the surface it looks like a "feel good" tactic, but since it won't solve the real issue and has the potential to backfire far more then the benefit that it would grant.
Hows about coming up with a real solution to the issue. | |
|
| | | | | 
mustang03282
join:2003-01-10
Bridgeton, NJ
clubs: | Re: SPAM only pays when you open your wallet how about tracking down these spammeres home addresses and posting them on the net. lol the post office will need fork lifts to bring all the thretning letters | |
|
|
|
MplsGuy
@209.32.x.x
| Re: The Idea The only persons hurt here are the ISP's and the ISP's users. Spammers are use to this. They just open new accounts all the time. Tiny cost of doing business. There are still thousands of places to setup shop. I operate an ISP and we have customers who create accounts, and nothing happens for months on end, all of a sudden, it's our turn. This silent customer comes alive and begins their rath. We kill that account within hours, but the black lash of bullshit from vigilantism goes on for days and days. BTW: these guys signup for business accounts, they explain they will run a mail server in their offices and want direct access to port 25. Should we turn away anyone needing access to port 25?
PS: The other thing going around here is computer viruses that relay messages. There are tons of stupid computer users and many of them are connected to their office LANs. Try disconnecting one of your largest accounts because they have one stupid user. By the logic I read here, it's OK to take down an office network or their ISP, because they had a virus on their computer. | |
|
| |
FED UP
@knology.net
| Re: The Idea You have to put up with the vigilante wrath for days?
This is the reason to obtain a copy of customers driver's licence or other ID and verify customer's address. If a server on your network is attacked because it is hosting spamvertised content, you can then sue the customer for damages and maybe anonymously releasing the customer's doc's. | |
|
|
|
|
Spam Vigilantism
By All Means!
·
·
·