  baineschile2600 ways to livePremium
join:2008-05-10
Sterling Heights, MI | hm isnt sprint a player in the wimax deal with clearwire? i think this would affect that....i could be wrong though. | |
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 |  en102Canadian, eh?
join:2001-01-26
Valencia, CA | Re: hm This is a case where being first isn't the best.
Sort of a Best vs. VHS., HDDVD vs BluRay
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| | | en102Canadian, eh?
join:2001-01-26
Valencia, CA | Re: hm oops - typo. I guess I wasn't awake at the keyboard.
Sadly enough - I think my parents still have an 80's Beta with video camera buried away somewhere.
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| | | | said by en102:This is a case where being first isn't the best. Sort of a Best vs. VHS., HDDVD vs BluRay I view WiMAX/LTE as cable/dsl, not beta/vhs. WiMAX is tied to IEEE and LTE is tied to 3GGP. Like cable/dsl, these are two very different industries who use different philosophical approaches. I say both can co-exist as cable/dsl do. The two industries will use the resources available to them. LTE is not IEEE friendly, so won't play well with cable industry or the consumer electronics industry. | |
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| | | en102Canadian, eh?
join:2001-01-26
Valencia, CA | Re: hm Very true - one being a more open standard (backed by several chip makers) vs. one being backed by very large corporate telecomm/patent holders.
The Beta (typo'd Best) vs VHS was more of a which was first/better didn't always win on the large scale analogy.
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| | | | | | Re: hm Beta and HDDVD never had a significant head start. WiMAX has a major head start. LTE is technically still just in trials, though everyone 'talks' rollouts. According to ATT, LTE is 5 years away from really being ready for prime time. WiMAX is already deployed to 600m+ and actual rollouts in progress to cover 800m this year in about 150 countries with 1B coverage expected next year. | |
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| | | | | en102Canadian, eh?
join:2001-01-26
Valencia, CA | Re: hm I will agree with that - LTE still has a ways to go before being prime - at least in the US.
Similarly, UMTS/HSPA was also significantly late to the game, but in general, its growing much faster (than CDMA EVDO) globally due to the GSM base that it had. I suspect similar on LTE.
Deployed to 600m, and having 600m subscribers are a huge difference. CDMA 1x/EVDO does not even have that number. (+544M).
A 'carefully' placed WiMAX upgrade/compatibility from GSM / HSPA would fare better for WiMAX long term survival.
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| | | | | | | | Re: hm Yeah, agree on the difference of presence and actual subscribers. Need the presence first, so the opportunity is there. If not enough users bite WiMAX, conversion to LTE is the obvious next step when LTE is ready.
Will be interesting to see if India bites. They seem to have a lot of WiMAX momentum. | |
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| | | | | | | en102Canadian, eh?
join:2001-01-26
Valencia, CA | Re: hm Exactly - the biggest potential for WiMAX is the underserved or 2G markets that have an expensive upgrade just to hit 3G.
Put in a lower cost IP only system that allows VoIP in these markets, and it'll be a sure win. | |
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| | en102Canadian, eh?
join:2001-01-26
Valencia, CA | Re: hm Yup - I still think that WiMAX as a data only solution will be cheaper to deploy than telco based LTE (having lots of spectrum doesn't hurt Clear/Sprint either). | |
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| | Switch from CDMA, not WiMAX It seems this is about switching from CDMA long term, yet also maintain WiMAX. WiMAX is expected to become the network for consumer electronics devices and the future for cable companies. LTE is pure telcom, controlled by 3GGP, which would make sense for Sprint to eventually migrate to and replace CDMA.
One thing for sure, CDMA can only go away until the 4G footprint is identical to the CDMA print and is also as reliable. That will take many many years. VZW says they will have 3G for 'another decade'. ATT claims LTE won't be ready for prime time for 5 more years. If so, VZW is either premature or is finding it the only way to keep up with ATT HSPA+ and Sprint WiMAX.
This might be one reason they are (reportedly) considering RevB. If the cost is relatively low to rollout and CDMA will be around for 'another decade', they may as well go for it tactically while building 4G networks. They'll be able to keep up.
BTW, here's a really interesting global WiMAX status report.
»www.wimaxforum.org/resources/mon···y-report
»www.wimaxforum.org/sites/wimaxfo···2010.pdf | |
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|  kapilThe Kapil
join:2000-04-26
Chicago, IL
1 edit | Re: Switch from CDMA, not WiMAX That is all very true. Networks don't get built overnight...we just turned off AMPS, what, a couple of years ago?
LTE is about a decade away from taking center stage....until then we'll have 3G or HSPA style "3.5G" with pockets of trial and experimental next generation network builds.
Hell, 3G wasn't really ubiquitous until around 2005-6....and T-Mobile didn't get done building theirs until this year. Not only does a next generation technology have to be ready to take over, but carriers have to recoup their investment in the current network before spending money on the next one.
AT&T decided to forgo FTTP/FTTH and is milking their last mile copper....what makes these industry pundits think that AT&T won't adopt a similar strategy for its wireless network instead of dumping billions into a next generation network?....especially when the technology doesn't yet exist for them to build it.
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| |  kamm
join:2001-02-14
Brooklyn, NY | Re: Switch from CDMA, not WiMAX said by kapil:That is all very true. Networks don't get built overnight...we just turned off AMPS, what, a couple of years ago? LTE is about a decade away from taking center stage....until then we'll have 3G or HSPA style "3.5G" with pockets of trial and experimental next generation network builds. Hell, 3G wasn't really ubiquitous until around 2005-6....and T-Mobile didn't get done building theirs until this year. Not only does a next generation technology have to be ready to take over, but carriers have to recoup their investment in the current network before spending money on the next one. AT&T decided to forgo FTTP/FTTH and is milking their last mile copper....what makes these industry pundits think that AT&T won't adopt a similar strategy for its wireless network instead of dumping billions into a next generation network?....especially when the technology doesn't yet exist for them to build it. You're confusing dates and networks, let alone building phases... TMO has already upgraded but it is flipping a swicth after backbone is there to support it - TMO is not AT&T, remember?
And with NY, NJ, PA already on 10+ megabit HSPA+ and in a month L.A. metropolitan area will be live as well they got pretty nice chunk of the population in just 4 months so if they indeed cover everyone by Oct-Nov they rolled out HSPA+ nationwide in as little as 8-9 months - and where are the others...?
AT&T is about 10-12 months away from having even just comparable speeds and that's assuming they will do a 180 and start upgrading their backbones...
And the rest of the pack? Just forget them until 2012.
EVDO is dead and LTE is 12-18 months away from en masse deployment...
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[BQUOTE=[user=bicker]]Waaaa waaaa waaaa. You just want what you want and don't care to factor in what is right or true. Your perspectives are un-American, and deserve far more ridicule than I'm prepared to pile on them.
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| | | kapilThe Kapil
join:2000-04-26
Chicago, IL | Re: Switch from CDMA, not WiMAX said by kamm:EVDO is dead and LTE is 12-18 months away from en masse deployment... LMFAO! 
I think I can, I think I can....
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| | | | kamm
join:2001-02-14
Brooklyn, NY | Re: Switch from CDMA, not WiMAX Ehh...? LMFAO @what? | |
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| | | | | kapilThe Kapil
join:2000-04-26
Chicago, IL | Re: Switch from CDMA, not WiMAX said by kamm:Ehh...? LMFAO @what? At your rampant fanboy fantasies about LTE which does not exist outside of a lab.
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| | | | | | kamm
join:2001-02-14
Brooklyn, NY
1 edit | Re: Switch from CDMA, not WiMAX said by kapil:said by kamm:Ehh...? LMFAO @what? At your rampant fanboy fantasies about LTE which does not exist outside of a lab. What's really LMAO is your crazy wet dreams about 1B people on WiMax and similar idiocies...
...like 100M in the US on LTE this year...
You must be working for some interrested parties otherwise you wouldn't push this much nonsense here.
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said by bicker:Waaaa waaaa waaaa. You just want what you want and don't care to factor in what is right or true. Your perspectives are un-American, and deserve far more ridicule than I'm prepared to pile on them. | |
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| | | | | | | | | Re: Switch from CDMA, not WiMAX Have specifically stated population coverage, not number of subscribers.
Won't be responding to you from this point on until you are able to have a reasonable conversation instead of these personal attacks. You are embarrassing yourself at this point with your misunderstanding of the topic.
I would like to see WiMAX co-exist, so do talk about it. Have no financial commitments to it and don't work in the industry. | |
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kapilThe Kapil
join:2000-04-26
Chicago, IL | A Ha! I was right!
I've been saying for years that the Clearwire deal didn't make sense for Sprint - why would they essentially become a MVNO riding on a network owned by a company partially owned by them?
The Clearwire deal was a strategic move at the time - Sprint was bleeding cash and needed to offload Xohm....the cable companies and Google had their own strategic reasons for joining in....so it was a marriage of convenience.
Of course that still left Sprint with a need to upgrade its CDMA based network to a next generation technology.
It was a risky bet, but Dan Hesse seems to have pulled it off...he got to be first to market with "4G" because of the clearwire deal....while Sprint will start and finish building its own next gen network at about the same time as Verizon and AT&T.
This makes much more sense than solely relying on Clearwire's network buildout for Sprint's next generation network.
Maybe Sprint will buy back Clearwire....maybe Clearwire will switch to LTE....maybe they will keep it as a separate brand and market it as a "last mile" alternative for premise based broadband to compete with the ILECs...or maybe Comcast or Google will buy out Clearwire and launch it as an independent wireless carrier.
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1 edit | Re: A Ha! I generally agree. Since WiMAX is IEEE, Sprint was able to get IEEE players to invest into WiMAX while Sprint still controls the spectrum.
Sprint still needs to replace CDMA eventually and operating both 4G networks for different reasons makes sense, especially since they don't have to fully invest in WiMAX. WiMAX is gaining global presence, 600m+ population coverage todya, 800m expected by end of this year and 1B next year. If it's true that LTE isn't quite ready for prime time and is 5 years away, WiMAX will get a very strong foothold, at least in the consumer electronics space and alternative to cable. The cable companies want a piece of WiMAX because they don't have access to 3GGP. They can help fund the WiMAX rollout.
LTE may eventually 'dominate' in terms of number of subscribers, but that doesn't mean WiMAX goes away. | |
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|  dib22
join:2002-01-27
Kansas City, MO
kudos:2 | 51% isn't partial... its controlling. | |
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|  old_dawg"I Know Noting..."
join:2001-09-22
Westminster, MD | said by kapil: Dan Hesse seems to have pulled it off Pulled what , the wool over shareholder's eyes?
All the capital out of the company and into his pockets?, like all the other Kansas City coward CEO's?.
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kamm
join:2001-02-14
Brooklyn, NY
2 edits | Do they have an option not to offer? Of course they don't... ...because it's impossible to cost-match a nationwide LTE deployment when it enjoys worldwide market support with something so niche like WiMax... and that's after we ignore current WiMax deployments' rather anorexic speeds - so far it does not even comparable to TMO's current HSPA+ speeds...
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said by bicker:Waaaa waaaa waaaa. You just want what you want and don't care to factor in what is right or true. Your perspectives are un-American, and deserve far more ridicule than I'm prepared to pile on them. | |
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| | | Re: Do they have an option not to offer? Of course they don't... WiMAX and LTE are still in first gen so are equal to HSPA+. LTE isn't really even in mass deployment mode yet, just trials. WiMAX is nearly at 800m global coverage already.
WiMAX/LTE are 'future' technologies that are not fully realized yet. HSPA+ is at the tail end, but is able to compete for now.
Most current WiMAX devices technically can do about 25Mbps (in a lab) and there are real world users doing up to 12Mbps. Just depends on load and backhaul. WiMAX 2 (802.16m) coming can do 1Gbps (lab) with real world 300Mbps. We likely won't see speeds that high but what 4G will allow is hundreds of users to have >10-30Mbps each, shared on the same site. Personally, I only need 4Mbps to do good quality video streaming. I'd step down my 7Mbps cable to 4 if it were cheaper.
TMO is definitely keeping up tactically for now but will need 4G in the long term. | |
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| | kamm
join:2001-02-14
Brooklyn, NY | Re: Do they have an option not to offer? Of course they don't... said by xenophon:WiMAX and LTE are still in first gen so are equal to HSPA+. LTE isn't really even in mass deployment mode yet, just trials. WiMAX is nearly at 800m global coverage already.
Who feeds you this pure Bshit? WiMAx is nowhere near in use by 800M population, put down the crackpipe, pal. quote:
WiMAX/LTE are 'future' technologies that are not fully realized yet. HSPA+ is at the tail end, but is able to compete for now.
Which was exactly my point: WiMax, in its current form, is unable to compete and it does not seem it will ever so Sprint needs a backup plan, obviously. quote:
Most current WiMAX devices technically can do about 25Mbps (in a lab) and there are real world users doing up to 12Mbps. Just depends on load and backhaul. WiMAX 2 (802.16m) coming can do 1Gbps (lab) with real world 300Mbps. We likely won't see speeds that high but what 4G will allow is hundreds of users to have >10-30Mbps each, shared on the same site. Personally, I only need 4Mbps to do good quality video streaming. I'd step down my 7Mbps cable to 4 if it were cheaper.
TMO is definitely keeping up tactically for now but will need 4G in the long term.
HSPA+ is capable for 29Mb [n]in the field[/i] with MIMO - what's your point?
Of course eventually TMO will bring in 4G but for thed next ~2 years they are very smartly banking on their 3.5G network as opposed to Sprint who is banking on an un-proven, still-in-development etc standard, hence my comment about Sprint not having an option here.
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[BQUOTE=[user=bicker]]Waaaa waaaa waaaa. You just want what you want and don't care to factor in what is right or true. Your perspectives are un-American, and deserve far more ridicule than I'm prepared to pile on them.
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| | | en102Canadian, eh?
join:2001-01-26
Valencia, CA | Re: Do they have an option not to offer? Of course they don't... Which is 'currently' more unproven ?
Having HSPA+ with MiMO gear probably won't be here for a while, and even then, most likely only for network datacards.
WiMAX does currently compete - but is not currently 'primarily' aimed at the handset market. On a global scale, I think its a great product, and in many places can/will do well. Rural markets where Telco is now being neglected, WiMAX has the opportunity to sell a phone + Internet bundle.
In places like the US, where heavily backed/lobbied telco/cableco rules the land, WiMAX has a steep challenge.
In places like India where its primarily 2G GSM, and the market is essentially the wild west (and there's +1 billion people), it has great potential. China is similar, China Mobile has +500 million subscribers on GSM, but is gov't run and will be pushing TD-SCDMA as a standard | |
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| | | said by kamm:something so niche like WiMax... current HSPA+ speeds... IEEE is not niche, cable companies are not niche, Intel is not niche. WiMAX already covers nearly 800m global population and will hit 1B next year. If LTE doesn't start true massive rollouts soon (VZW is only one planning to of global players), WiMAX will have enough foothold to co-exist.
VZW says they will hit 100m LTE coverage this year. I'll be very impressed if they do. When they rolled out EVDO, it took over 6 months for them just to hit 60m coverage. They could probably do it by throwing enough money at it but they've only shown presence so far in two markets and those are just trials. | |
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| | kamm
join:2001-02-14
Brooklyn, NY
2 edits | Re: Do they have an option not to offer? Of course they don't... said by xenophon:said by kamm:something so niche like WiMax... current HSPA+ speeds... IEEE is not niche, cable companies are not niche, Intel is not niche. WiMAX already covers nearly 800m global population and will hit 1B next year. If LTE doesn't start true massive rollouts soon (VZW is only one planning to of global players), WiMAX will have enough foothold to co-exist. Just WTF are you talking about? WTF contributing member status has to do with WiMax almost nonexistant foot print or its smaller-than-niche market share?
Seriously, you are rambling without any sense.
quote:
VZW says they will hit 100m LTE coverage this year.
You mean 100 meters?
I can probably believe that...
I'll be very impressed if they do. When they rolled out EVDO, it took over 6 months for them just to hit 60m coverage. They could probably do it by throwing enough money at it but they've only shown presence so far in two markets and those are just trials.
What are you talking about? There are NO DEVICEWS whatsoever - just how the fuck they woul;d put out 100M devices in ~6 months? Are you high?
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said by bicker:Waaaa waaaa waaaa. You just want what you want and don't care to factor in what is right or true. Your perspectives are un-American, and deserve far more ridicule than I'm prepared to pile on them. | |
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1 edit | Re: Do they have an option not to offer? Of course they don't... Dude, chill. VZW claims they will rollout LTE to cover 100 million population end of this year.
Your attacks only dilute any point you attempt to make. It's hard to have a reasonable conversation with you. You are behaving like a 12 year old.
WiMAX already covered 600m population last year and is approaching 800m in real world rollouts for this year. How is that a non-existent footprint? | |
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| | | | | | Re: Do they have an option not to offer? Of course they don't... I'm with Kamm. I'd be very surprised if Verizon could actually pull off the 20-30 markets worth of LTE service that was mentioned over at Gigaom and elsewhere. | |
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| | | | | | | Re: Do they have an option not to offer? Of course they don't... Which I am also saying. He's confusing 100m pop coverage vs. 100m devices - not even listening. I will be very surprised if VZW reaches 100m pops by end of year. | |
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| | | | | | kamm
join:2001-02-14
Brooklyn, NY | Re: Do they have an option not to offer? Of course they don't... said by xenophon:Which I am also saying. He's confusing 100m pop coverage vs. 100m devices - not even listening. I will be very surprised if VZW reaches 100m pops by end of year. You're not making ANY sense... or is this the same BS like the 1B people on WiMax?
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[BQUOTE=[user=bicker]]Waaaa waaaa waaaa. You just want what you want and don't care to factor in what is right or true. Your perspectives are un-American, and deserve far more ridicule than I'm prepared to pile on them.
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| | | | | | | en102Canadian, eh?
join:2001-01-26
Valencia, CA | Re: Do they have an option not to offer? Of course they don't... 'covering' is not the same as 'subscribers' on any technology.
I.E. Most wireless carriers 'cover' +93% of the population, that doesn't mean each carrier has ~280 million subscribers. | |
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| | WiMAX Forum Report Here's more about the WiMAX global rollout.
»www.wimaxforum.org/resources/mon···y-report
»www.wimaxforum.org/sites/wimaxfo···2010.pdf
WiMAX Forum currently tracks 588 WiMAX Deployments in 148 Countries.
End of 2009...
Region PopulationCovered
Africa 81,347,832
Asia-Pacific 237,148,673
CALA 113,246,829
Eastern Europe 82,887,886
Middle East 27,390,827
North America 47,000,000 (US to have 120m+ pops end of 2010)
Western Europe 32,549,629
TOTAL 621,571,679 2009, 800m in progress for 2010, 1B by 2011
It's hardly insignificant. The longer it takes for LTE to do actual significant rollout (just trials today), the more likely WiMAX gets a foothold.
I've been looking for reports of actual, real VZW rollout in progress. They talk and say it will start 'soon' but there is no word of other markets in progress other than the Boston/Seattle trial cities. | |
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jfmezeiPremium
join:2007-01-03
Pointe-Claire, QC
kudos:22 Reviews:
 ·ELECTRONICBOX
| Transition must also include handsets Bell Canada and Telus recent lighted up their HSPA (GSM) network that coexists with their old CDMA stuff.
By the time LTE comes along, they should have gotten rid of most of their old CDMA stuff and then be able to run hybrid HSPA/LTE network, using hybrid handsets for their customers.
If Sprint remains with CDMA with an eye towards LTA as 4G, its move will require a more massive "instant" investment to deploy LTA throughout its network ASAP because there probably won't be hybrid CDMA/LTE phones that end users could use to move between LTE and the unupgraded old CDMA zones.
With CDMA's dwindling user base, it also has a dwindling supply of handsets and this will only get worse when Verizon moves away from CDMA. Spring really doesn't have much of a choice but to adopt world standard tehcnologt otherwise it will be stuck with an network with very few handsets available to run on it.
There probably won't be CDMA/LTE phones. But there will be HSPA/LTE phones. (or perhaps even Edge/HSPA/LTE (and their voice counterparts).
Verizon is partly owned by Vodaphone who would like its US asset to be usable by its own custsomers when roaming in the USA. It was quick to announce it would go to LTE to be compatible with its owner Vodaphone. | |
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| | | Re: Transition must also include handsets "By the time LTE comes along, they should have gotten rid of most of their old CDMA stuff and then be able to run hybrid HSPA/LTE network, using hybrid handsets for their customers."
I highly doubt this. In the US, AT&T hasn't gotten rid of most of their 2G GSM network. They have to sell dual chip GSM/UMTS radios. UMTS is W-CDMA based and very different from 2G GSM at the air interface, requiring multiple radios. The advantage of CDMA2000/EV-DO is that it's fully backwards and forwards compatible with CDMAOne/IS-95 (the 2G Qualcomm CDMA standards).
By the time LTE comes along, AT&T is likely to have to have triple chipset GSM/W-CDMA/LTE phones. I also suspect that by the time LTE comes along, Bell Canada and Telus will still have lots of rural areas using the CDMA network. Bell Canada and Telus themselves will need not just CDMA/LTE phones, but CDMA/W-CDMA/LTE tri chipset phones. I don't see how you could say that that makes Bell Canada and Telus better off. | |
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| | Sammer
join:2005-12-22
Canonsburg, PA | Re: Transition must also include handsets I have to agree with johnthacker that CDMA phones at least for voice aren't going away very soon. CDMA is at a dead end for data so Sprint chose mobile WiMAX and Verizon Wireless wants LTE ASAP. 3G UMTS still has some room to improve so AT&T Mobility and T-Mobile USA aren't in as big a hurry to deploy 4G. Give 4G another five years to develop and at least for data 4G (where available) should be better than 3G UMTS (W-CDMA) in every way. | |
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 thenderScreen tycoonPremium
join:2009-01-01
Brooklyn, NY
kudos:1 | Does this mean smartphones can be used on multiple networks? I am growing tired of the "it will work on these 2 out of the 4 networks, but 3G only on this 1"
It makes the idea of buying an unsubsidized phone retarded. Why bother when you're stuck with one provider if you want to take full advantage of the phone anyway?
I hope LTE comes to everyone. Same everything.
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| Sammer
join:2005-12-22
Canonsburg, PA | Re: Does this mean smartphones can be used on multiple networks? said by thender:I am growing tired of the "it will work on these 2 out of the 4 networks, but 3G only on this 1" I hope LTE comes to everyone. Same everything. Even if LTE doesn't come to everyone (and it probably won't) hybrid LTE / WiMAX phones will probably be much easier to make in a few years than hybrid 3G phones. The two standards are much closer than competing 2G and 3G standards ever were. | |
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