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Sprint's $2.5 Billion Network Improvement Plan Hints At LTE
And the eventual death of their iDEN network

Sprint today unveiled their latest $2.5 billion network roadmap, which features as a centerpiece the death of the company's iDEN network, which will begin being phased out in 2013 and continue through 2017. The company's upgrade project also involves replacing current network hardware and base stations capable of utilizing multiple bands, including the company's 800 MHz, 1.9 GHz spectrum, 4G 2.5 GHz WiMax, and potentially LTE. According to a Sprint statement, the goal is a reduced carbon footprint, better indoor wirless data coverage, and more streamlined base stations that are multi-mode:

quote:
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Today, Sprint uses separate equipment to deploy services on 800 MHz spectrum, 1.9 GHz spectrum and, through its relationship with Clearwire, 2.5 GHz spectrum. Under the terms of the new contracts, Alcatel-Lucent, Ericsson and Samsung will install new network equipment and software that brings together multiple spectrum bands, or airwaves, on a single, multi-mode base station.
Sprint's chirping iDEN network, acquiring during its acquisition of Nextel, will be phased out by the introduction of next-generation push-to-talk broadband-centric services. Those services, according to Sprint, will feature "sub-second call set-up time," and utilize Sprint's CDMA network starting next year.

While Sprint's CEO recently denied that deploying LTE was on Sprint's radar, we continue to hear from multiple Sprint employees who insist Sprint is absolutely beginning an LTE network build as part of this project starting next year. Sprint only vaguely hints at this possibility in their press release, proclaiming the project simply "creates network flexibility" in terms of next-generation upgrades.
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kapil
The Kapil
join:2000-04-26
Chicago, IL

kapil

Member

Failure of FCC

If FCC could just do its job and plan spectrum use properly, we wouldn't have this problem. T-Mo doesn't have enough spectrum and had to use AWS for its 3G. Sprint is running 4 networks. This is no way to compete in a global information economy.

Also, PTT is dead. It's a niche technology with a very narrow customer base...everyone else has already moved on. This is why, despite that fact AT&T, Verizon, Sprint and US Cellular all offer it, you hardly hear about it.

The new network build sure is pretty though...and much more gentle on the planet as it requires less space.
ricklerre
join:2009-06-22
Brooklyn, NY

ricklerre

Member

Re: Failure of FCC

said by kapil:

If FCC could just do its job and plan spectrum use properly, we wouldn't have this problem. T-Mo doesn't have enough spectrum and had to use AWS for its 3G. Sprint is running 4 networks.

I believe Sprint and T-mobile bought their spectrum at auction. The FCC isn't in the business of which private company deserves the spectrum the most, they just sell to the highest bidder.

If that 3rd spectrum band wasn't producing an efficient amount of value for Sprint you can bet they'd sell it to T-mobile in a heartbeat.

kapil
The Kapil
join:2000-04-26
Chicago, IL

kapil

Member

Re: Failure of FCC

said by ricklerre:

The FCC isn't in the business

The FCC needs to be in the business of ensuring that there is some cohesive vision, some grand plan behind this country's infrastructure.

This century isn't like the last...we don't manufacture things to get ahead. We get ahead using information....and for that we need some semblance of a national infrastructure plan.

Letting the highest bidder buy and do what it will with spectrum resources will end in the clusterfuck we have now - shoddy coverage, high prices and countries overtaking us in technology.
WhatNow
Premium Member
join:2009-05-06
Charlotte, NC

WhatNow

Premium Member

Re: Failure of FCC

The service economy is an economy that is dying. If you are making something then you are just moving money from one hand to the another. Information may make things more efficient but it is just moving money around or taking a small piece of the total pie.
China has a surplus because they make stuff and they can take all our information over time and use it for their on game. Then tell us to kiss off. We were powerful after WWII because every other major country was destroyed. We sold them everything to rebuilt when they could build their own and compete our trading got harder. Then China came alone with a work force that would work for nothing but was a good wage for them and we have funneled all our stored wealth and what we could borrow to them.

kapil
The Kapil
join:2000-04-26
Chicago, IL

kapil

Member

Re: Failure of FCC

said by WhatNow:

The service economy is an economy that is dying. If you are making something then you are just moving money from one hand to the another. Information may make things more efficient but it is just moving money around or taking a small piece of the total pie.
China has a surplus because they make stuff and they can take all our information over time and use it for their on game. Then tell us to kiss off. We were powerful after WWII because every other major country was destroyed. We sold them everything to rebuilt when they could build their own and compete our trading got harder. Then China came alone with a work force that would work for nothing but was a good wage for them and we have funneled all our stored wealth and what we could borrow to them.

LMAO. You don't understand economics, do you? Like, at all!
rlharris02
join:2009-02-06

rlharris02 to kapil

Member

to kapil
I really really dont think you know what you are talking about

Verizon - AWS,700mhz,800mhz Cellular Band,1900mhz PCS Band
ATT - AWS,700mhz,800mhz Cellular Band,1900mhz PCS Band,2.3GHz
Tmobile - AWS,1900mhz
Sprint - 800mhz SMR Band,1900mhz
Clear - 2.5Ghz

WHO has what and WHO should the FCC look into ?????????????
patcat88
join:2002-04-05
Jamaica, NY

patcat88

Member

Re: Failure of FCC

What is ATT 2.3 ghz?
Expand your moderator at work

Jon Geb
Long time member
join:2001-01-09
Howell, MI

Jon Geb

Member

Major news

As a 8year spring customer I can say this sounds very promising. I get sick to think that my WiMax Overdrive will be ditched soon though. I also fear that this might mean that current coverage may stay the same untill this gets off the launchpad. Metro Detroit and Phoenix being the 2 forgotten metro areas with substantial populations.

Matt3
All noise, no signal.
Premium Member
join:2003-07-20
Jamestown, NC

Matt3

Premium Member

Re: Major news

said by Jon Geb:

As a 8year spring customer I can say this sounds very promising. I get sick to think that my WiMax Overdrive will be ditched soon though. I also fear that this might mean that current coverage may stay the same untill this gets off the launchpad. Metro Detroit and Phoenix being the 2 forgotten metro areas with substantial populations.

I think WiMAX (Clear) is going to go the way of iDen too.
xenophon
join:2007-09-17

xenophon

Member

Re: Major news

said by Matt3:

I think WiMAX (Clear) is going to go the way of iDen too.

My guess... Sprint will convert CDMA/iDEN to LTE but Clear will stick with WiMAX as long as they are in business. We as consumers should want WiMAX to succeed and it is not tightly controlled by the telcom industry as LTE is. WiMAX has a much better chance of global roaming than LTE does. WiMAX is mostly on 3 bands, LTE will be on over a dozen.

Matt3
All noise, no signal.
Premium Member
join:2003-07-20
Jamestown, NC

Matt3

Premium Member

Re: Major news

said by xenophon:

said by Matt3:

I think WiMAX (Clear) is going to go the way of iDen too.

My guess... Sprint will convert CDMA/iDEN to LTE but Clear will stick with WiMAX as long as they are in business. We as consumers should want WiMAX to succeed and it is not tightly controlled by the telcom industry as LTE is. WiMAX has a much better chance of global roaming than LTE does. WiMAX is mostly on 3 bands, LTE will be on over a dozen.

My only real gripe with WiMAX, is that on the 2.5GHz band as it stands now, it is useless indoors.
xenophon
join:2007-09-17

xenophon

Member

Re: Major news

said by Matt3:

My only real gripe with WiMAX, is that on the 2.5GHz band as it stands now, it is useless indoors.

2.5Ghz does work indoors, just needs to be the appropriate tuning/implementation, which will take a while to hash out.

700mhz will penetrate indoors better but will have more interference than 2.5ghz if too much power, so they may have to lower power, reducing penetration, just as it did when cell phones were first rolled out.

Both have their issues that require different types of engineering to implement properly. It will take a year or 3 to get things tuned well for both implementations.

To say 2.5ghz is useless indoors is an uninformed statement. I get 5 bars signal at home indoors and enough signal in elevator.

Matt3
All noise, no signal.
Premium Member
join:2003-07-20
Jamestown, NC

Matt3

Premium Member

Re: Major news

said by xenophon:

To say 2.5ghz is useless indoors is an uninformed statement. I get 5 bars signal at home indoors and enough signal in elevator.

You must be sitting on top of the antenna. I have two WiMAX devices which don't get a signal at all unless I have an external antenna attached to one. And in both locations I'm supposed to have indoor coverage according to their map. Outside at one location I only get two bars and at the other, it comes and goes.

This is a very common complaint with WiMAX and mobile devices.

I'm sure they can hash it out, but the question is, will they have time? I don't care what the technology is, I just care if it serves my need and actually works.
xenophon
join:2007-09-17

xenophon

Member

Re: Major news

It's about a half mile away. I do agree they have to tune it right but to say it doesn't at all work indoors is an incorrect statement.

Like early cell coverage, it will take a while to hash out filling in the gaps. Clear's issue is that they don't have enough capital to fill in the gaps while also rolling out new coverage. That's a logistical issue with properly rolling out 2.5Ghz, not an issue with 2.5Ghz itself.

It will take a while for 700mhz operators to tune properly as well, as it has much more significant interference issues unless in rural areas. You might get the penetration but if not tuned right, interference will cause performance to suck if even usable. 2.5Ghz needs more sites or more power. 700mhz can't do too much power so might need more sites and has to be carefully tuned with other sites nearby - not as much of a challenge in rural area but in metros, will be.

iLive4Fusion
Premium Member
join:2006-07-13

iLive4Fusion

Premium Member

Re: Major news

said by xenophon:

It's about a half mile away. I do agree they have to tune it right but to say it doesn't at all work indoors is an incorrect statement.

Like early cell coverage, it will take a while to hash out filling in the gaps. Clear's issue is that they don't have enough capital to fill in the gaps while also rolling out new coverage. That's a logistical issue with properly rolling out 2.5Ghz, not an issue with 2.5Ghz itself.

It will take a while for 700mhz operators to tune properly as well, as it has much more significant interference issues unless in rural areas. You might get the penetration but if not tuned right, interference will cause performance to suck if even usable. 2.5Ghz needs more sites or more power. 700mhz can't do too much power so might need more sites and has to be carefully tuned with other sites nearby - not as much of a challenge in rural area but in metros, will be.

Verizon won't really have that much of a problem because they have been in the network business for a long time and know what they are doing first hand operating the nation's largest 3G network on 850mhz, which 700mhz isn't really that much different.

rawgerz
The hell was that?
Premium Member
join:2004-10-03
Grove City, PA

rawgerz to xenophon

Premium Member

to xenophon
Half mile, that's why. Even 1.9Ghz is poor after 3-4 miles. 700Mhz is very close to already established cellular, I don't see them having problems with it. Antennas solve a lot of issues but they only have so much space up on top of a tower, which means they will go with sectoring antennas over anything else.

NJBoricua75
Born And Raised
join:2000-09-13
Brooklyn, NY

NJBoricua75 to Matt3

Member

to Matt3
In order to fix the indoor coverage problem, you need more towers. In order get more towers, you need more money which they don't have. Clear's been bitching about Sprint's lack of funding.

2.5GHz is just a $hitty band. Face it.

I just think Sprint is better off converting Nextels 800MHz into LTE and forgetting about stupid WiMAX. If Clear wants to still offer it, so be it. Clear should target rural users using Satellite for internet.
iansltx
join:2007-02-19
Austin, TX

iansltx

Member

Re: Major news

You have a point. 150MHz of 2.5GHz spectrum is AWESOME for fixed wireless service with an external antenna, not so hot for mobile use...
WhatNow
Premium Member
join:2009-05-06
Charlotte, NC

WhatNow

Premium Member

Re: Major news

The other problem with towers is the I want great coverage but no tower in my back yard or that I can see.
iansltx
join:2007-02-19
Austin, TX

iansltx

Member

Re: Major news

I don't mind cell sites perched atop buildings, or on existing towers. Between the two coverage should be just fine. Sprint has a cell site atop a building a few hundred yards away from me and as a result my phone works where other people's phones don't...and it's a Sprint phone.

jhgr345654
@sbcglobal.net

jhgr345654 to WhatNow

Anon

to WhatNow
F that They can put one in my back yard!!!!

rawgerz
The hell was that?
Premium Member
join:2004-10-03
Grove City, PA

rawgerz to NJBoricua75

Premium Member

to NJBoricua75
said by NJBoricua75:

2.5GHz is just a $hitty band. Face it.

Which is why I don't get how changing 2 point anything to LTE is better. Sprint doesn't have any 700Mhz spectrum, and they don't have the major ground network to provide high speeds in much of the country.

iLive4Fusion
Premium Member
join:2006-07-13

iLive4Fusion to xenophon

Premium Member

to xenophon
said by xenophon:

said by Matt3:

My only real gripe with WiMAX, is that on the 2.5GHz band as it stands now, it is useless indoors.

2.5Ghz does work indoors, just needs to be the appropriate tuning/implementation, which will take a while to hash out.

700mhz will penetrate indoors better but will have more interference than 2.5ghz if too much power, so they may have to lower power, reducing penetration, just as it did when cell phones were first rolled out.

Both have their issues that require different types of engineering to implement properly. It will take a year or 3 to get things tuned well for both implementations.

To say 2.5ghz is useless indoors is an uninformed statement. I get 5 bars signal at home indoors and enough signal in elevator.

It's been how many year's in certain cities and Verizon has come and beat those cities' out on launch day in coverage where clear is so spotty.
DarnellP
join:2004-10-12
Las Vegas, NV

DarnellP to Jon Geb

Member

to Jon Geb
said by Jon Geb:

Metro Detroit and Phoenix being the 2 forgotten metro areas with substantial populations.

I don't know about Metro Detroit, but trust me, Phoenix is far from forgotten.
iansltx
join:2007-02-19
Austin, TX

iansltx

Member

$4-$5B

That's the figure I saw in the Sprint document. Where did you get $2.5B from?

lakerfan82
join:2009-01-30
Corona, CA

1 edit

lakerfan82

Member

Deja Vu?

Sprint's chirping iDEN network, acquiring during its acquisition of Nextel, will be phased out by the introduction of next-generation push-to-talk broadband-centric services. Those services, according to Sprint, will feature "sub-second call set-up time," and utilize Sprint's CDMA network starting next year.

Is it 2007 again? I thought they were already in the process of phasing out iden? What happened to Qchat? And didn't Qchat have a second generation that Sprint was already going to try?

Here is a November 2006 press release... »urgentcomm.com/mag/radio ··· upgrade/

Vchat20
Landing is the REAL challenge
Premium Member
join:2003-09-16
Columbus, OH

Vchat20

Premium Member

Re: Deja Vu?

Seriously. That's the same thought I had. You guys are a bit late, Sprint tried that in 2006....oh yeah. lol.

On a serious note though I hope they do not plan on 'killing' iDEN but rather spin it off or sell it to another company. I can only imagine all the business customers that are going to be severely shafted in the process. There's still no foolproof replacement for iDEN's PTT system for those who need the reliability. Sprint can try all they want and whatever brand new ingenious system they crap out isn't going to meet those reliability numbers. A 'broadband based' system just sounds like a bad idea. Especially considering the vast difference in QoS and availability across their coverage area in terms of data service.
iansltx
join:2007-02-19
Austin, TX

iansltx to lakerfan82

Member

to lakerfan82
QChat worked well...hopefully they bring it back. Should do great when CDMA hits former MIRS bands.

BillRoland
Premium Member
join:2001-01-21
Ocala, FL

BillRoland

Premium Member

Re: Deja Vu?

said by iansltx:

QChat worked well...hopefully they bring it back. Should do great when CDMA hits former MIRS bands.

QChat worked so great that's why they abandoned it?

Sprint is posturing to sell the iDEN network, plain and simple. Hesse has been trying to for over a year and now he's forcing the issue. Motorola didn't keep their iDEN business unit just to watch its biggest customer shut it down in 2 years. You can't just put wideband CDMA or LTE on the ESMR iDEN spectrum, in many cases the Nextel spectrum isn't even contiguous.

Sprint is posturing for a sale. That's going to help raise the cash for all all this other stuff.
iansltx
join:2007-02-19
Austin, TX

iansltx

Member

Re: Deja Vu?

What does the MIRS bandplan look like?
iansltx

iansltx to BillRoland

Member

to BillRoland
By which I mean, if there's 1.25MHz of contiguous spectrum, that's enough to make CDMA coverage on Sprint MUCH better...

iLive4Fusion
Premium Member
join:2006-07-13

iLive4Fusion

Premium Member

Re: Deja Vu?

said by iansltx:

By which I mean, if there's 1.25MHz of contiguous spectrum, that's enough to make CDMA coverage on Sprint MUCH better...

Will they even be able to do anything in the South where Southern Linc iDEN operates since they have a lot of the SMR band down here?
iansltx
join:2007-02-19
Austin, TX

iansltx

Member

Re: Deja Vu?

Nextel oesn't share spectrum with SouthernLINC AFAIK so yes.

iLive4Fusion
Premium Member
join:2006-07-13

iLive4Fusion to iansltx

Premium Member

to iansltx
said by iansltx:

QChat worked well...hopefully they bring it back. Should do great when CDMA hits former MIRS bands.

NO!!! QCHAT was terrible and by far way too unreliable to use for public safety!

•••

Bill Neilson
Premium Member
join:2009-07-08
Alexandria, VA

Bill Neilson

Premium Member

Alright! More speed, More improvements, small caps

so we can use those great additions....in small doses!

Carlnyc80
@rr.com

Carlnyc80

Anon

Sprint 4G

Sprint 4 G doesn't work indoors here in NYC. I have the Evo and I live in a 11th floor, but I don't get 4 G service when I am in my apt. However once I am outside I get service. I understand that its only has been one month since they launched here in NYC. The good thing is that most of the time when I am at work or somewhere I get 14 Down, and 1 or 2 upload.
criggs
join:2000-07-14
New York, NY

criggs

Member

Re: Sprint 4G

said by Carlnyc80 :

Sprint 4 G doesn't work indoors here in NYC. I have the Evo and I live in a 11th floor, but I don't get 4 G service when I am in my apt. However once I am outside I get service. I understand that its only has been one month since they launched here in NYC. The good thing is that most of the time when I am at work or somewhere I get 14 Down, and 1 or 2 upload.

So, just to be clear, you're saying that your workplace is outside, and that's why you get good reception at your workplace, correct?

Incidentally, Sprint is well aware that the majority of its WiMax coverage in NYC so far is street-level only. If you go to »coverage.sprint.com/IMPA ··· coverage and plug in a zip code for NYC (I'm in 10022), and then zoom in all the way, you will see a pattern that looks like Swiss cheese, with boxes of in-building coverage cheek-by-jowl with boxes of in-street coverage cheek-by-jowl with boxes of 3G coverage only.

I have no idea whether what we're seeing in their coverage maps represents the complete rollout that will change little if at all in the future, or whether this is something that will change gradually in a month-by-month process, or whether these maps are changing on a weekly or even daily basis.

But what I do know is that Sprint seems well aware that the WiMax rollout in NYC is spotty, at least for now, and have taken great pains to protect themselves from customer ire by going to great lengths to publicize that fact.

In my own case, for example, I'm at the corner of East 54th and 2nd Avenue. Take a look at that intersection. You will see that it does have in-building coverage -- barely. As you can also see, it is impossible to zoom in enough to see for sure which of the intersection's four corners has the in-building coverage and which, if any, don't.

For this reason, Sprint refused to guarantee my 4G service when I first upgraded, and continue to maintain that my 4G coverage is marginal.

Except that it ISN'T. My WiMax connection has been rock-solid from the day I upgraded. As some of you may know, Sprint has pre-throttled their WiMax service, at least in NYC and maybe across the country. They've imposed a 10mbps download speed cap and a 1mbps upload speed cap.

And guess what I'm getting? An average of 9 to 10 mbps download speed and an average of 1mbps upload speed.

In other words, I'm getting darn close to MAX SPEC with my current WiMax connection, clearly in-building coverage.

So don't tell me their in-building coverage isn't in-building coverage. It is, and I've got it, and it works.

The problem, of course, is that I'm one of the lucky ones. Looking at that Swiss cheese coverage map, I'd estimate roughly that they currently have about 20% of Manhattan covered with in-building capability. Some rollout! Let's hope this is only the beginning of rapid expansion over the next several weeks, rather than a weak lame status quo extending for the next few years. If the latter, and if this is typical of their coverage in other cities, then I agree that WiMax will lay a gigantic egg in the coming months and years, despite its dramatically superior pricing structure to that of the pathetic Verizon Wireless LTE.

Still, the fact is that I can personally attest that this is one network that works, and works very well, when properly implemented. Incidentally, I'd sure like to know how they're doing this in-building coverage. Are they putting towers on the sides of skyscrapers or on their roofs?